Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Our Man Moose
2008-08-28 09:20
by Alex Belth

It is a gorgeous day in New York City.  I picked up some San Marzano tomatoes at a nearby Farmer's Market and then noticed a twenty dollar bill on the pavement.  Two gentlemen were standing a few feet away from me and they saw it too.  I was closer so I bent over, picked it up and looked around to see if anyone would claim it.  One of the men said, "I think it was that girl in the white t-shirt, go after her."  So I did.  I hustled half a block away and asked the woman in the white shirt if the bill was hers.  She looked confused. 

Ethics, Belth, ethics

I could have kept the dough.  It didn't look like it belonged to her.  But I gave it to her anyhow and said, "Welp, if it ain't yours, at least you are twenty dollars richer now."  I held out my hand for her to slap me five, but she balked.  Maybe she thought I was asking for half of it in return.  Ah, people just don't slap each other five like they used to, do they?

I walked away and when I passed the two guys I told them I didn't think it was hers.  "Well, maybe you'll get it in return someday," one of them said, "and much more than twenty bucks."

Who knows?  Karma is a funny thing.  Speaking of which, the Yankee season has boiled down to me rooting for Mike Mussina to win twenty games more than anything else.  Knowing his "luck" he'll end up with eighteen or nineteen.  But luck can change at the drop of a dime.

Enjoy the day, and let's go Yankees.


Comments (152)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-28 09:36:09
1.   Raf
Was she hot? :)
2008-08-28 09:39:35
2.   dianagramr

He's got Em .... she's a keeper ...

2008-08-28 09:39:39
3.   Alex Belth
She was not. She was tough, man. Big broad. Very strong handhake. Couldn't place where she was from but she was certainly a tourist.

But, those San Marzano tomatoes...dag, they are just the best for cooking.

2008-08-28 09:54:10
4.   cult of basebaal
aceves up ... robertson down ... according to cashman, aceves up for the bullpen, but will probably get a start at some point (like after they exchange pavano for a bag of baseballs)
2008-08-28 10:02:46
5.   dianagramr
I'm listening to the WEEI radio feed of this game (cause I can't deal with Sterling).
2008-08-28 10:11:55
6.   dianagramr
Moose is 15-4 since April 23 .... impressive for a team 7 games over .500 on the year.
2008-08-28 10:12:53
7.   Biscuit Pants
5 Sterling's a little worse when they're losing.
2008-08-28 10:13:12
8.   OldYanksFan
I read an article, and as sad as the sentiment was, there is a feeling that a 20 game season for Moose might put him over the top for the HOF. If the Yankees can't pull it together for the team of the fans... I can live with that. But they need to step up for Moose. Time is running out, and it's time to win 'em for the Moose.
2008-08-28 10:15:23
9.   Biscuit Pants
"Watching" on game day was that last pitch to Ortiz close?
2008-08-28 10:17:12
10.   SteveF
Not really. Looked obviously high.
2008-08-28 10:17:49
11.   OldYanksFan
9 Yes... just a bit high.
2008-08-28 10:18:54
12.   Biscuit Pants
[10,11] I see . . .
2008-08-28 10:26:34
13.   OldYanksFan
I find it a problem that they don't call the 'high strike' a strike. I mean, it's a high STRIKE... right? As a kid, it was the armpits. Now it's the letters... a less distinct marker. However, pitches mid/top stomach, well below the letters, are usually called a ball.

The strike zone is just all over the place this year. For me it kills the game. Knowing the zone and NOT going after a pitch an INCH outside is part of the makeup of a great hitter. Now, the strike zone is anyone's guess. Hitters with a great eye might be at a disadvantage, as they may let close 'balls' go by, only to have them called a strike.

That strike 3 to JD last night was maybe the worse call I've seen. NESN showed the replay with their strike zone graphic, and the ball was literally a good foot outside. Remy said 'terrible, just terrible' and then went on a rant FOR instant replay.

The umping at home plate is just terrible and kills part of the fine art of the game.

2008-08-28 10:28:02
14.   tommyl
A-Rod Ks, sigh.
2008-08-28 10:28:30
15.   ChrisS
0 We'll be right back in the jungle, livin' wid the animals.

See this AB was clutch, and ARod failed, hence he's a bad player regardless of what he does later in the game or next week.

2008-08-28 10:52:11
16.   domvjr
You know it's bad when you have only 15 comments for a Red Sox game, even if it is the afternoon! :) The Banter is in a funk.
2008-08-28 10:54:26
17.   Just fair
Since the boys are playing like it's the early 90's, the BB's have turned back the clock and are writing letters to one another.
2008-08-28 11:02:30
18.   Shaun P
16 Not much to say, other than go Moose!

At least the Yanks are making Lester work this time. 50+ pitches and he's not through the 3rd yet.

2008-08-28 11:02:37
19.   SteveF
Before those following on gameday ask, looked like a failed hit and run.
2008-08-28 11:03:19
20.   pistolpete
19 Jeter got hung up, Abreu just flied out. Way to make Lester work!
2008-08-28 11:05:51
21.   Biscuit Pants
13 Rather than see replay brought in, or rather in addition to it, I'd like to see an electronic strike zone. Surely today's technology can make this work.
2008-08-28 11:07:17
22.   JeremyM
19 Thanks! I was wondering....
2008-08-28 11:08:26
23.   JeremyM
21 But human error is what makes this game beautiful. Like when they called Damon out on his first at bat yesterday on a pitch a foot outside---BEAUTIFUL!
2008-08-28 11:09:43
24.   pistolpete
And that's why the Sox aren't getting out of the first round of the playoffs.

No Manny, no fear.

2008-08-28 11:10:09
25.   williamnyy23
Once reality sets in, there really is little to discuss on game threads. Alex thinks everyone is away on vacation, but I just think everyone's passion has given way to a bit of baseball despression. Personally, I no longer get worked up about failing to work the count, for example. I just sit back and watch the team hack away.

Once the realization sets in, I'm sure BB will once again be lively with early thoughts about 2009.

2008-08-28 11:12:04
26.   JeremyM
24 But according to Gammons, the clubhouse is so much better. Clubhouseiness pays off in October.
2008-08-28 11:15:09
27.   tommyl
26 Yeah, those '77 Yankees, they all loved one another. No loud mouth superstars on that team!
2008-08-28 11:15:51
28.   Jeb
25 As I wrote last night, the worse things get in the short run, the better things will get in the long run because the Yanks will go out and get some new free agents. It's my understanding that if the Yanks finish in the bottom 15 of MLB, no draft picks will be surrendered.

And, there are things to remain passionate about. I'm passionate about Moose getting 20 wins this season and 300 for his career. I want Jeter to move forward to 3,000 hits and beyond. I want to see homeruns by Arod to get him closer to Bonds. I want us to win our last game at Yankee Stadium against the Bosox (in fact, that's why I'm listening today) and I desperately want us to beat Baltimore on September 21 and close the park out with a win.

We certainly don't have playoffs to talk about, but we didn't have that from 1982-1993 either. However, I had to find things like Donnie Baseball to keep my interest. I know we'd all like to gear up for October baseball, but we can still be passionate about our team.

2008-08-28 11:16:34
29.   pistolpete
Gammons, heh. The entire team could perish in a bus accident and he'd still put them in the playoffs.
2008-08-28 11:16:47
30.   Raf
25 Not many people come around when the Yanks play poorly. I still think a good number are away on vacation. I don't comment as much (or when I do, it's in spurts) because I'm away from the Banter doing other things.
2008-08-28 11:17:15
31.   Shaun P
25 I think you're right about folks not being as invested in each individual outcome - a run here or there means nothing now. But I do think the game threads will pick up, especially as Moose gets closer to 20 and Joba returns, and we see some of the "kids" (real kids like Hughes and not quite kids like Aceves).
2008-08-28 11:21:14
32.   OldYanksFan
NESN 'K-Zone' shows the strike 3 to ARod as 6-8" outside. 2-3 ball widths.
NESN 'K-Zone' shows the strike 3 to Nady as 5-6" outside. 1-2 ball widths.
2008-08-28 11:22:32
33.   Shaun P
21 The electronic strike zone cannot come fast enough for me. Home runs

Bud may be right that allowing instant replay isn't going to open the floodgates as long as he's commish. But the day will come when Seligula is no longer commish, and then, who knows?

Whether a pitch is a ball or a strike affects a game just like whether a hit ball is a home run or not.

2008-08-28 11:24:22
34.   SteveF
The strike zone is quite wide today, to be sure. I wouldn't expect much run scoring.
2008-08-28 11:24:38
35.   yankster
25 what kills me, and what is hard to write about or discuss, is that the Yank's performance, or under performance seems so mental and so emotional - like a collective funk. Arod in clutch, IBK, Melky, Cano, and maybe Giambi all have things going on in their heads that are painful to watch.

Is it just me, or does it seem like other teams' players (excluding relievers) don't quite collectively lose their minds and stop hitting to their historic performance as much as, for example, Giambi and Cano did in the beginning of this year.

Of course, when I write it, the sentiment seems ludicrous. Just look at last year's Mets.

2008-08-28 11:25:12
36.   OldYanksFan
21 Certainly the horizontal plane would be easy, as that is fixed. Vertically would be a little more difficult, as that varies with player height. I'd love to see it, but that is WAY out of the 'tradition' of baseball. Maybe if they do instant replay RIGHT and that works for years, they will then consider more hi-tech upgrades to improve umpiring.

Great pitching by Moose. No offense by the Yankees.

2008-08-28 11:29:48
37.   Knuckles
I post a lot less often on the day game threads because I am the CEO of a major company.

Go Yanks!

2008-08-28 11:30:46
38.   3rd gen yankee fan
16 I have a hard time posting while at work. Go Moose! Screw the Sux!
2008-08-28 11:31:12
39.   ChrisS
Eh, I'm poking my nose in most of the time. I think I've made opinions pretty clear about where I stand with this team.

And no, no more expensive free agent "fixes".

I've been a Yankee fan for as long as I can remember, when I was ripping open that first set of Topps as a kid and getting that Ron Guidry card, it seems - I lived in NY (the state), I should be a Yankee fan. I sat through the years when they couldn't buy a win, and it really wasn't that long, though it seemed like it.

I'm a fan when they win, and a fan when they lose. It's just that when they lose there's not much to get excited. That and I'm getting tired of arguing the same things over and over ("We should have got Santana for IPK and melky" and "Hughes sucks" and "A-Rod sucks" and "Torre never should have been fired [sic]"). It's fatiguing.

2008-08-28 11:32:23
40.   pistolpete
And, according to recent trends, this might be the ballgame.
2008-08-28 11:32:32
41.   williamnyy23
According to Sterling, Cano just made a mental mistake because he could have taken it himself. Waldman then made a great point about Cano probably not being aware that Ellsbury was running. Simple misplays like that have become a hallmark of this team. The fact they continue to happen is a definite black mark against Girardi.
2008-08-28 11:34:47
42.   SteveF
Cano was pretty close to the bag and could have taken it himself, though I'm not sure it would have made much difference.

What might have made a difference is if Cano had more aggressively charged the ball.

Ellsbury is just too fast to double up most of the time.

2008-08-28 11:37:52
43.   JeremyM
42 Not too fast for Molina I guess :)
2008-08-28 11:38:57
44.   Barron
Anyone else hear the Pavano to the Mets rumor on MSNBC? Reportedly, the sticking point is how much of his salary each team pays.
2008-08-28 11:39:03
45.   SteveF
Well, replays indicate Ellsbury was actually safe.
2008-08-28 11:41:05
46.   cult of basebaal
44 depends on if they're actually giving us something. if we get nothing, they pay most of the freight. if we can get something, especially if we can get something more by paying more, then i'm fine with picking up more of the tab.
2008-08-28 11:42:50
47.   OldYanksFan
35 Ludicrous? No. EXACTLY correct. Many Yankees are in either an offensive slump or a 'clutch' slump. Some think clutch is random, I believe there are some individuals better then others.

For 2005-2007, Giambi's RISP and RunnersOn numbers were well better then his OPS. I have always thought of Giambi as clutch. So this year is very unusually.

I think, for whatever reasons, "the Yank's performance, or under performance seems so mental and so emotional - like a collective funk" is very real, and more then any, the reason we are not in the PS.

I believe the underdog, 'nothing to lose' team (Tamba Bay?) does have a mental advantage. Consistantly high expectations are difficult to live up to.

2008-08-28 11:43:21
48.   OldYanksFan
37 Got any openings?
2008-08-28 11:43:33
49.   cult of basebaal
jebus, this team sucks donkey balls against jon lester ... and it's always the same damn pattern ... get a bunch of runners on in the 1st and threaten, but don't score ... and then spend the rest of the game hacking away futilely.
2008-08-28 11:43:46
50.   Jeb
39 Why not get free agent fixes if they're worthwhile? Look at all the free agents and trade acquisitions the Yanks made from 1995-2001 that worked out pretty well (Key, Wells, Fielder, O'Neill, Knoblauch, Strawberry, Raines, Clemens, Moose).

I'm not saying the Yanks should just go out and spend money, but a team with a good blend of homegrown talent and free agents can win a world series. Just look across the field at Boston's acquisitions that were huge parts of their 2004 and 2007 championship teams (I'm not going to give an exhaustive list but Schilling, Ortiz and Manny from 2004 and Lowell, Drew, Matsuzaka, and Beckett from 2007 were all pretty prominent in their title runs).

The key is to have a good plan and build a team that does things together well both offensively, defensively and pitching.

In my opinion, the Yanks need Tex not only because he's a great hitter, but also because he's a Switch hitter and plays great defense (which makes him more valuable than Giambi who was a little less multi-dimensional). They need Milton Bradley because he will get on base a lot more than Bobby. The Yanks need a front of the rotation starter like CC Sabathia (who will blend quite nice with Wang and the youngsters) rather than hoping guys like Kevin Brown, Jaret Wright, Carl Pavano, Kei Igawa, Ponson, etc. etc. can catch lightening in a bottle.

It's not about whether free agency is smart or not because free agency is a necessary evil, but the Yanks need to make intelligent decisions. They need to hit more than they miss like Boston does.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-28 11:44:56
51.   OldYanksFan
41 Remy made the same point, a couple of times. He thought the flip throw was also a little lax.
2008-08-28 11:44:59
52.   JohnnyC
Brian Cashman, according to Michael Kay, says, "This is all on me. I put this team together."
2008-08-28 11:47:48
53.   OldYanksFan
Strike 3 to Ortiz looks 3-5" outside.
2008-08-28 11:49:01
54.   JohnnyC
49 Is this because of the stress of high expectations that can't be reasonably met or is Kevin Long a pretty awful batting coach? Just asking. I notice that the Red Sox have had a turnover in their coaching staff in the last 2 years but decided to go with guys with some form of major league experience, Magadan as a player for a dozen years and Farrell as a successful coach with the Indians. Maybe we ought to give Butch Wynegar a shot. Maybe we should have hired Chili Davis.
2008-08-28 11:49:05
55.   OldYanksFan
44 Are we getting anyone in return? And money is the hangup? There is less then 20% of the season left.... or less then $2m.
2008-08-28 11:50:42
56.   JeremyM
55 Yeah, I'd rather worry about getting talent back.

He does have an option though, so there's probably a buyout not being factored in.

2008-08-28 11:51:05
57.   SteveF
Probably should have been called a DP there. Pedroia was too far out of the baseline for sure.
2008-08-28 11:51:20
58.   OldYanksFan
Pedroia ran WELL out of the baseline. Remy calls it an obvious out. Pedroia is well on the grass.
2008-08-28 11:51:43
59.   JohnnyC
Frankly, there's not much in the Mets system I'd really be interested in. We certainly don't need a Niese or a Parnell and the postion players they have up now, Evans and Murphy, are no better than Eric Duncan.
2008-08-28 11:51:56
60.   thelarmis
man, 2 walks & 2 hbp by moose this afternoon. looks like #17 might have to wait til next week... : /
2008-08-28 11:52:51
61.   Sliced Bread
Pedroia was out of the basepath but I don't think midges are held to the same boundaries as humans. You could look it up.
2008-08-28 11:52:51
62.   JohnnyC
You can't beat a shutout anyway.
2008-08-28 11:53:16
63.   SteveF
That second pitch to Kotsay looked pretty far outside to me. The strike zone is very, very big today. Guys should take the hint and start taking their cuts.
2008-08-28 11:54:56
64.   SteveF
Justice is served to some degree at any rate. Glad there was no scoring that inning as a result of the bad call.
2008-08-28 11:55:52
65.   JohnnyC
It's getaway day for the umpires as well.
2008-08-28 12:02:19
66.   JeremyM
They're teasing us again....
2008-08-28 12:04:07
67.   OldYanksFan
50 I agree with your statment, but the only problem is "...the Yanks need to make intelligent decisions"... how do you know which decisions are intelligent? Was Gaimbi's contract intelligent? Tex will be overpaid EVEN for his prime production. But 8, 9 or 10 years from now? Could it be MUCH worse then Giambi's contract? Is getting Tex intelligent considerall ALL factors? (and I don't know).

And CC? Tempting. But again, top dollar, buying high. Most long term pitcher contracts have turned out to be NOT intelligent. Is getting CC intelligent?

You just never know how a player is going to perform. It's an intelligent GUESSING game. It's the stock market. It's Vegas.

One of the issues, is the Sox and Mets of the recent past, and Detroit this year, are teams that will take big chances amd gamble the future for a year or 3 of a potential PS team. I think now Cashman is thinking of a different model. The Yankees don't want 2 or 3 PS's a decade. They want to build a sustainable model for long term dominance. Aside from MAYBE the Sox, no other team works on that kind of model.

2008-08-28 12:06:40
68.   JeremyM
2008-08-28 12:07:06
69.   OldYanksFan
Orsillo says "and ARod pops it up. Oh... the boos will be nasty now".
2008-08-28 12:08:16
70.   OldYanksFan
ARod OVERswinging. Trying to win the game instead of keeping the inning going. Nady.... OH SHIT!!!!!!!!
2008-08-28 12:09:20
71.   SteveF
Not getting that runner in from third with less than 2 outs is a real killer. Getting even just the 1 run out of that inning changes the complexion of the game.
2008-08-28 12:10:04
72.   Shaun P

Its almost a wonder we aren't all drunkards by now.

2008-08-28 12:11:50
73.   thelarmis
72 i still have a slight buzz from last nights drinking escapades! which were just a few beers in front of the laptop reading about baseball... : ~
2008-08-28 12:13:24
74.   OldYanksFan
The odds of the many, many times NOT scoring, with the heart of the order up, with 2 men on and less then 2 out, is almost staggering. How many times in a row can we throw snake-eyes?????? It seems lightning strikes twice more then we score in these situations.
2008-08-28 12:14:00
75.   Sliced Bread
72 [hic] who you not callin' [hic] a drunkard, friend?
when this team is [hic] bad... I drink good.
2008-08-28 12:17:52
76.   Bob B
Alex, your Karma was already good but it was a thoughtful and nice thing to do. I'm so distraught with this team that I gave away my tickets for today's game. I just couldn't bear to see us swept by Boston in their last visit here. No, Moose will not get to 20. This team needs a major overhaul starting with the GM.I still believe in my heart that the acquisition of #13 was the curse. I mean isn't #13 a bad bad number sure to anger the Gods of Baseball.
2008-08-28 12:20:29
77.   Sliced Bread
it ain't over til the Humperdinck sings:

now, it's over

2008-08-28 12:20:58
78.   Jeb
67 But past performance is an indicator. We knew that Giambi was a high OBP guy with power who couldn't play defense. In fact, that's exactly what he is even today. The only real problem with Giambi is that the Yanks didn't recognize his injury propensity or his steroid problem.

The Yanks surely knew that Pavano was a .500 pitcher and that Jaret Wright and Kevin Brown were re-treads. My take is that the Yanks were actually hoping that those guys would be anchors, but overrated their performance based on selected good years.

2008-08-28 12:23:18
79.   Alex Belth
Enough! Time to step up and give Moose some freakin run support here!
2008-08-28 12:25:19
80.   SteveF
I hope everyone stood stock still -- no matter where they were -- during God Bless America! I know I didn't try and make a move to the bathrooom!
2008-08-28 12:27:24
81.   domvjr
Being a child of the "60's" my soundtrack to this season is This is the END!
2008-08-28 12:36:48
82.   OldYanksFan
Shit! Moose with 113 pitches. Jeez....
2 ERs, 5 hits in 7. Quality start. YANKEES SUCK!
2008-08-28 12:38:09
83.   JohnnyC
78 I really think that most of those decisions were based on immediate results with little or no thought to, say, 4-5 years down the line (even Giambi's signing). The mantra was win NOW not establish a foundation (that had already been done). Unfortunately, none of these short-term gambles really panned out. We hope that that mentality doesn't exist anymore in the FO but a season like 2008 could change all bets.
2008-08-28 12:39:06
84.   Sliced Bread
nice Zheeombeeno!
2008-08-28 12:39:13
85.   OldYanksFan
80 Is masterbating "stock still"?
(That Kate Smith a HOT!)
2008-08-28 12:39:21
86.   Shaun P
79 Alex, you've done it again!

One more run!

2008-08-28 12:39:27
87.   thelarmis
2008-08-28 12:39:33
88.   KJC
A curtain call? Is that serious???
2008-08-28 12:39:57
89.   OldYanksFan
And Giambi caught up with a fastball!
2008-08-28 12:40:19
90.   JohnnyC
85 Trying to tell us something? Ronan Tynan sang GBA today.
2008-08-28 12:40:28
91.   dianagramr
No curtain call, cause Giambi is still 3 homers behind Delgado :-)
2008-08-28 12:41:14
92.   dianagramr

The WEEI radio guys stated that Tynan was in the ballpark today.

2008-08-28 12:41:33
93.   OldYanksFan
85 THEY'RE BOTH HOT!!!!!!!!
2008-08-28 12:41:55
94.   JohnnyC
89 Proof that Okajima really does suck. Oh well, they'll have to find someone else to speak the mother tongue to Fatsusaka.
2008-08-28 12:43:46
95.   JohnnyC
93 Tynan's got better pipes.
2008-08-28 12:43:56
96.   Just fair
That was perfect. Well done, Joe G. and BIg G. Now beat these bastards.
2008-08-28 12:44:48
97.   JohnnyC
If we go extras would they use Aceves?
2008-08-28 12:44:53
98.   Shaun P
Poor Moose. Add this to the canceled Pittsburgh game, and that other one I've forgotten the details of, and . . .

Uh, is Bruney OK?

2008-08-28 12:45:15
99.   dianagramr
Will Rivera be brought into a tie game?
2008-08-28 12:46:52
100.   JohnnyC
We've found our late-inning pinch hitter deluxe. It's Giambi. Pick up his option and use him exclusively as a pinch hitter. He can hit for ARod in late-inning clutch situations. That's the ticket!
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-08-28 12:47:42
101.   Shaun P
99 If he is, I could write Pete Abe's blog update for him.

Marte does the job.

2008-08-28 12:47:53
102.   JohnnyC
99 It's at home. The book says it's o.k.
2008-08-28 12:48:57
103.   OldYanksFan
94 You kid, but I think that's why they got Oki. Over 11 years in Japan, his ERA was 3.3-ish. In MLB, it 2.46. How many times has a Japanese pitcher been better in MLB then in Japan?
2008-08-28 12:50:04
104.   dianagramr

start writing that update ...

2008-08-28 12:53:13
105.   OldYanksFan
P.S. As a starter, in FAR more innings, Igawa had a 3.15 ERA.

So we get a starter, with many innings of a 3.15 ERA, and he sucks.
Boston gets a reliever, with an ERA of 3.3, and he has a better ERA here by almost a run.

2008-08-28 12:54:02
106.   Shaun P

Mo in save situations: 34.2 IP, 0.52 ERA, 15 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 HR, 3 BB, 39 K

Mo when the game is tied: 24 IP, 3.00 ERA, 21 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 3 HR, 3 BB, 28 K

2008-08-28 12:57:48
107.   Raf
78 Brown, while not an anchor, was doing ok on the season right up until he tried to take on a clubhouse wall.
2008-08-28 13:01:12
108.   pistolpete
Why why why why must it always come down to Alex?
2008-08-28 13:01:41
109.   JohnnyC
Time to bat masterson around.
2008-08-28 13:04:18
110.   pistolpete
2008-08-28 13:05:06
111.   OldYanksFan
Ellsbury is 24 and has a 0.685 OPS.
MelkBone, at 22, put up a 0.751 OPS and has a MLB career OPS (at 24) of 0.701.

Are the Sox giving up on Ellsbury? Is he better then Melky? Are we giving up on Melky?
I think Melky will start in CF next year as I don't see a tasty FA to replace him. He will however, be on a short leash.

2008-08-28 13:08:10
112.   Max
This is not going to end well.
2008-08-28 13:08:33
113.   OldYanksFan
This is the FORTH quality start by Moose when he gets a No-decision.
2008-08-28 13:08:52
114.   Alex Belth
He waved at ball four. Slider outside. He committed to it. Dammit.
2008-08-28 13:09:13
115.   OldYanksFan
Anyone think that Mo should pitch outside to lefties a bit more?
2008-08-28 13:09:25
116.   Raf
111 Check their MiL numbers.
2008-08-28 13:10:03
117.   OldYanksFan
109 I loved that show. Gene Barry.
2008-08-28 13:12:09
118.   JohnnyC
Ellsbury leads the league in stolen bases. In the context of the team's offense, this is a real contribution. Melky has no speed, no power, and no on base skills apart from his batting average. Yeah, Chief Noodlebat is no prize but he is giving his team something offensively.
2008-08-28 13:15:28
119.   JohnnyC
117 I used to snicker at TV westerns but, you know, the classics like Bonanza, Wagon Train, and Have Gun Will Travel were well-written, literate, and better-acted than what passes for drama on TV these days. Broadcast that is. Cable has some good stuff.
2008-08-28 13:15:40
120.   dianagramr

OK .... THAT was funny! :0

2008-08-28 13:16:07
121.   cult of basebaal
78 ah yes, those lovely hindsight glasses again ...

in 3 of the 4 years preceeding his first year as a Yankee, Kevin Brown put up an ERA+ over over 150, including the final one where he put up a ERA+ of 169.

You can subtract for park and league, but that still leaves a reasonable assumption that the team was acquiring an above average pitcher.

2008-08-28 13:19:10
122.   JohnnyC
Some guys just don't want to bunt.
2008-08-28 13:19:56
123.   JohnnyC
Now Gardner has to steal.
2008-08-28 13:22:08
124.   OldYanksFan
119 Actually, Bonanza in it's early days was a little hokey. None of the guys could ride when they first started the show. If you watch the opening clip to each show carefully, you can see the boys struggling to just stay on the horse. In later years, when Michael Landon started writing, there were some excellent, dramatic shows... and many with great humor.
2008-08-28 13:26:06
125.   Raf
119 I caught HG,WT in syndication. I really enjoyed watching that show, the few times I was able to catch it. That show in particular, got me into westerns.
2008-08-28 13:26:14
126.   JohnnyC
124 I remember reading about the competition they had amongst the four of them in the size of their boot heels...none of them wanted to seem half a head shorter than the others in the group shots. Funny stuff.
2008-08-28 13:26:16
127.   ChrisS
121 At 40.

Adding a couple of guys here and there that are past their prime by that much? Not a problem. Building a rotation and depending on a offense/defense built on those guys? Disaster waiting to happen.

Age ain't just another number.

Milton Bradley is a headcase, talented, but a headcase.

Ivan doing something offensive.

2008-08-28 13:27:25
128.   rbj
Dang, totally spaced about the game. Also been real busy.
2008-08-28 13:28:26
129.   JohnnyC
125 HG was a really good show with surprisingly topical storylines, many about race and class in these United States. And Richard Boone was a very good actor.
2008-08-28 13:28:50
130.   ChrisS
This could be ugly.
2008-08-28 13:29:13
131.   Yankee Fan In Boston
my kingdom for a deep fly ball.
2008-08-28 13:29:53
132.   rbj
Bases loaded, only one out. The Yankees score, right? Right?
2008-08-28 13:30:01
133.   Just fair
How about that!! It sure beats losing. : ) Screw you, Paps.
2008-08-28 13:30:14
134.   JohnnyC
No jig from Papelbum?
2008-08-28 13:30:50
135.   ChrisS
130 Or not, talk about unclutch!
2008-08-28 13:31:15
136.   OldYanksFan
The stache is back!
2008-08-28 13:31:50
137.   rbj
2008-08-28 13:32:22
138.   OldYanksFan
Also, a really well done show was 'The Rifleman', with Chuck Conners.
2008-08-28 13:34:27
139.   JohnnyC
138 I found it a little dark. Maybe because Conners had only one affect as an actor...grim. But, even there, well-written. Conners was a little better in Branded. Great theme song.
2008-08-28 13:34:55
140.   Max
112 I'm glad to be wrong and have us avoid the sweep. I was sure the Upgrade would hit into a double play before G-Man ever got to bat, but he "worked" a walk (thanks to Masterson) and Giambi comes through after two nasty strikes.
2008-08-28 13:37:48
141.   Raf
127 And Brown (110 ERA+) was doing fine up until he punched a clubhouse wall. 2004, the Yanks had the makings of a decent rotation


With Lieber & Duque waiting in the wings.

I'd take my chances with that staff.

2008-08-28 13:44:14
142.   cult of basebaal
127 well, at 39 actually.

the 2004 rotation was fine actually, it tended older, but overall was middle-aged.

the problem was the bullpen ...

2008-08-28 13:48:07
143.   cult of basebaal
141 to elucidate ...

player age 2003 ERA+
vasquez 27 139
mussina 34 129
lieber 32 109
brown 39 169
contreras 32 139

i'd agree, that a pretty decent starting rotation to begin the year with.

2008-08-28 13:59:12
144.   ChrisS
141 I don't have a problem with it for one season, necessarily, but it's hard to count on those kinds of players for other than one season. Taking a flier that a grizzled vet has magic for one more year is fine when he's not there to be depended on. And it's not like they gave up a ton for Brown, but he cost a lot of money. Even for a team like the Yankees, even they have their limits. Paying Brown limited their ability to fix other holes. The win-now mentality seems to me like a prevent defense in football, it just prevents a team from winning.

When does the bottom drop out? That 2004 staff had an average age of 34. There's a lot that can go wrong and not much to build on the next season. Who'd the Yankees have in the minors? Brad Halsey and Alex Graman (and CMW starting to make waves in AAA).

Not surprisingly, the first thing that Cashman did when he took full control was stockpile arms. And he has been waiting eagerly for his arms and for a lot of bad money to come off the books, last year and this year. After next season, he'll just have Jeter, Posada, and Rivera left with big, bad deals (Rivera, I think will make it to 40 without declining too much). And then it'll be one - A-Rod, which, all things considered, isn't a bad player to have.

So it pains me to see Cashman work tirelessly and patiently to rid the team of big millstone contracts only to hear it from the fans/media who want the team to dump tons of money and years and prospects on the current flavors of the season having learned nothing from the last decade.

2008-08-28 14:06:12
145.   cult of basebaal
144 that's fair enough, although i will make the argument that this team is actually very well situated to both commit to drafting and developing young pitching AND sign a couple of big name free agents in the next couple of offseasons.
2008-08-28 14:19:02
146.   Raf
144 I don't think the Brown signing limited their ability; they had him for 2005, and they still added payroll in Johnson, Pavano, Wright.
2008-08-28 14:21:30
147.   Shaun P
144 Why does calling for signing CC and Tex go against that? Sign Tex to short term, big money - and if he's in decline by 32, I'll be shocked. CC is nothing near a Kevin Brown, a Jaret Wright, or a Carl Pavano. Or even a Vazquez (and I loved that trade at the time). I think he's worth the gamble, because I think it will pay off.

Besides, with all the pitching the Yanks have (or seem to have), they could, in theory, sign CC to a long-term, big money deal, and then (as long as no one gets hurt) spend no other money on free agent pitchers for at least 4 years (outside of signing Wang at some point). Who care if they spend $28M/year on CC if the rest of the rotation only costs, say, $6M or $7M?

Ditto in the bullpen. Next year can easily be "Mo and the 6 'kids'" - where Mo costs $15M and the rest of the bullpen costs maybe another $4-$5M, tops.

That's financial flexibility.

2008-08-28 14:23:58
148.   Jeb
121 You might want to consider whether someone reading your claims about "hindsight glasses" considers that to be an arrogant comment. I do mainly because it's counterproductive. It's a way of saying "I'm smarter than you" rather than just disagreeing and offering a basis for same.

AND, the last time you attributed hindsight glasses to me they actually didn't fit because my comment about being concerned about Girardi playing with fire by allowing Rasner to continue to pitch with a 1-0 lead occurred BEFORE he gave up a homerun. But feel free to make up facts as you wish. Just don't expect me to respond in a non-snarky fashion when you do.

Kevin Brown, at the time he was signed by the Yankees:

1. Had been pitching in the national league; and

2. Was 39 years old.

It's NOT hindsight to suggest that the Yankees should have known that Brown was nearing the end of his career, unless you consider it to be common for a pitcher to continue pitching well into his 40's.

What I'm saying is the Yanks need to go out and get star free agents in the prime of their careers, like CC who is 27 years old. I promise that if they do, I won't suggest that "they should have known" if he gets hurt.

2008-08-28 16:33:58
149.   cult of basebaal

a) i don't care how you choose to take it, frankly.

b) in 78 you said, " ... Kevin Brown were re-treads. My take is that the Yanks were actually hoping that those guys would be anchors, but overrated their performance based on selected good years."

i pointed out that someone coming off 3 of 4 150 ERA+ years (and 3 out of 4 with good health and 200+ innings, including the last one) could be "reasonably" counted on to provide above average production. somewhat like the red sox reasonably counted on curt schilling to provide above average production in 2004 at the age of 37, even though he was coming off less successful, more injury filled year.

as for the now established meme that the "NL is the weak sister league", that wasn't nearly the case back then. it was specifically the struggles of NL All Star pitchers like Brown, Vasquez and Johnson that helped solidify the degree of that concept. since that wasn't in evidence at the time, i'd say that's using the luxury of hindsight in assessing the decision.

2008-08-28 17:54:03
150.   Jeb
149 You know, we are all fans of the Yankees here at the Banter, or at least most of us are. And, most people here are able to debate without resorting to personal attacks, which are simply designed to make people feel small, or tell them that their beliefs are stupid and worthless.

I've read many of your comments at the Banter and I am absolutely not surprised that you don't care how I take what you wrote. And it's your apathy to other people's feelings, in this case mine, which is the saddest part for me. Because by being antagonistic, you're embracing the Buzz Bissinger stereotype of bloggers.

I'll add that resorting to the "hindsight glasses" comment, as you often do, doesn't add very much to your arguments other than to show that you simply want to be the loudest person in the room, like some sort of blogging Michael Savage, and criticize the person rather than the idea.

Frankly, I find the "hindsight glasses" comments a bit boring, and more than a bit repetitive at this point, since it's become your standard comment to just about anything, much as Ed McMahon used to say, "you are correct, sir". It's just a meaningless tagline at this point. And, really, you're only saying that no decision in the past can ever be questioned because it's hindsight analysis.

Actually, even hindsight analysis can be useful. It's not simply that the Yanks made a mistake signing Kevin Brown (they did), it's about taking that mistake, acknowledging the mistake, and then resolving not to make that mistake again. It's taking the lesson and learning from it. Unfortunately, history is littered with plenty of examples where people and nations didn't learn from prior mistakes because they weren't willing to put on hindsight glasses and be analytical. I hope that Brian Cashman will and instead of signing older players who are well past their prime (even ones who are still performing) that he will invest the resources in younger talent.

Also, you've become so accustomed to criticizing hindsight that you even raise the specter of hindsight even when it's NOT hindsight (as in my Rasner example, which you tellingly chose not to address for the obvious reason that you were wrong).

At this point let's just agree to disagree. Please don't direct comments towards me and I will do likewise. Life's too short to get into pissing matches. There are many people I enjoy having discussions with at the Banter (such as William, OYF, Mehmattski) who often tell me, "You're wrong Jeb", but they do it in a respectful way and I really enjoy the debate with them. That's why I come here.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-08-28 18:14:30
151.   Alex Belth
Jeb, Cult, I'm sorry that the last exchange came to that. Unfortnately, Cliff and I aren't able to moderate all of the comments section but again, it's our strong feeling that we can disagree with each other, but getting snippy and nasty with each other is flat unnecessary.
2008-08-28 18:49:12
152.   Jeb
151 I hear you. That's my point, Alex. I really hope that my comments didn't come off as snippy. I do feel like I have a right to point out when someone's going too far though.

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