Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Time to Step Up
2008-08-06 11:19
by Alex Belth

Tonight's game thread is up early today--and my apologies for the malfunction last night.  Man, the season is slowly getting away from our Bombers.  They'll need to salvage a split in Texas to stay afloat.

Let's Go Yan-Kees!

Comments (250)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-06 13:43:50
1.   Bob B
Yankees are in real trouble. I don't care that they are only 3 1/2 out of the wild card. Injuries have decimated them. Joba on the 15 day DL now. We need a centerfielder next year. Anyone got any ideas of how to fill that hole?
2008-08-06 14:16:15
2.   Raf
1 Injuries have decimated them.

Injuries have decimated them the past 3-4 years. As to a CF'er, run Damon out there every so often, or give the ghost of Kenny Lofton or Mike Cameron or Jim Edmonds a look-see. Maybe take a chance on Andruw Jones.

The options aren't that pretty, I will admit.

2008-08-06 14:19:56
3.   dianagramr
Ummm ... just a heads-up, our friend Jeff Karstens has something going on in Arizona this afternoon.
2008-08-06 14:26:10
4.   JL25and3
3 He's also now 2-for-3. I can think of a collection of guys who've been on base two fewer times than he has.
2008-08-06 14:34:05
5.   dianagramr
5 outs to go ...
2008-08-06 14:35:34
6.   tommyl
5 4
2008-08-06 14:36:49
7.   tommyl
Ah shoot, there it goes. Young hit a double.
2008-08-06 14:37:31
8.   ms october
chris young doubled.

valiant effort though.

2008-08-06 14:37:40
9.   dianagramr
Karstens shakes off his catcher, and promptly serves up a clean double to Chris Young.

Oh well.

2008-08-06 14:38:02
10.   JL25and3
It would have been an interesting one - only 4 Ks.
2008-08-06 14:38:13
11.   YankeeInMichigan
Now he's just one "scary fly ball" away from blowing the win as well.
2008-08-06 14:39:55
12.   Vandelay Industries
I wish he had done it. It would have said more about the Yankees season than anything else could.
2008-08-06 14:40:50
13.   Schteeve
Is Joba on the DL?
2008-08-06 14:41:22
14.   ms october
and fittingly 12 of his 24 outs were fly balls
2008-08-06 14:42:39
15.   ms october
13 yes - per pete and it's on espn
2008-08-06 14:45:15
16.   Schteeve
15 But no diagnosis yet?
2008-08-06 14:46:19
17.   Vandelay Industries
15 I guess it's see you in Spring Training then.

What are the odds that Pavano actually pitches? I hate to say it, but with our lethargic offense, we need two of Kenndy, Pavano, and Hughes to be solid.

2008-08-06 14:47:02
18.   ms october
16 no diagnosis (released) yet
2008-08-06 14:47:45
19.   Chyll Will
14 ,15

This from Pete:

"JOBA ON DL: Joba Chamberlain has been placed on the 15-day DL. RHP Chris Britton was recalled from AAA Scranton. More on this later as it develops.

No official word yet on what he has, but it sounds like it could be enough to end his season."


2008-08-06 14:48:17
20.   Schteeve
More troublingly Johnny D is playing center tonight.
2008-08-06 14:50:28
21.   Vandelay Industries
1 Injuries have decimated them the past 3-4 years. As to a CF'er, run Damon out there every so often, or give the ghost of Kenny Lofton or Mike Cameron or Jim Edmonds a look-see. Maybe take a chance on Andruw Jones.

The options aren't that pretty, I will admit."

Even Melky is a better alternative to that plan. Stick with Melky until we can pull off a trade or someone from below proves themselves. I would be willing to plug Cameron in there, but he will get hurt leaving the dugout, or in the parking lot, or on the subway, or at the theatre or. . .

2008-08-06 14:51:11
22.   Chyll Will
So... (clasping hands together) how about that weather down there, eh?
2008-08-06 14:52:04
23.   Vandelay Industries
19 The worst part of this is that all those click click clicker morons will be shouting from the rooftops that they are correct about pitch counts. Again, as they always do, using one example to prove a rule that doesn't correlate to facts.
2008-08-06 14:52:05
24.   Shaun P
20 Well, Christian doesn't hit RHPs . . . I'm just guessing a righty is starting for Texas, I haven't looked.

19 Or the Yanks are just being cautious, or trying to use "Joba is out" as a motivating factor for the team. Though I'm sure I'll get some disagreement on this statement - these guys aren't the type of guys to say, "Well, there goes the season," and give up. They are much more likely to use it as motivation to try even harder.

I hope.

2008-08-06 14:52:55
25.   Vandelay Industries
22 I'm in LA. It's not bad, a little warm, but the humidity isn't so terrible today:)
2008-08-06 14:55:22
26.   Vandelay Industries
I say it is time for Arod to shed #13 for another, any other. I'm not Superstitious, but sheesh.
2008-08-06 14:56:26
27.   Shaun P
23 Umm . . . WTF are you talking about?

The guys who advocate watching pitch counts for young pitchers (those under 25), and those (of any age) coming off of injury, are 100%, absolutely without a doubt correct to do so. There is mountains of evidence on this point. Those guys don't need this to prove their point; the point has been proven and is not in doubt.

At the same time, why would anyone correlate Joba's injury with high pitch counts? He's been handled very appropriately in that regard.

2008-08-06 15:02:43
28.   YankeeInMichigan
Karstens just completed a 2-hit shutout. 113 pitches in 101-degree Pheonix heat. 9th was hairy, as he walked Ojeda and then went to 3-2 on Tony Clark, but then he got DP from Clark. Drew then singled for hit #2, but he got Hudson to ground out to Minky. 11 GO, 12 AO.
2008-08-06 15:05:53
29.   Raf
9 "...He's throwing a no hit shutout and he's shaking me off, can you believe that shit. Charlie, here comes the deuce and when you speak of me, speak well." :)
2008-08-06 15:08:21
30.   Bama Yankee
29 Well played, Raf.
2008-08-06 15:12:36
31.   YankeeInMichigan
27 Joba's pitch counts have gone as high as 114. That might be a bit steep for a 22-year old. Then again, the injury followed a strong 98-pitch outing, so there shouldn't be a correlation there.

As for inning counts, Joba threw 124 innings (combining 4 levels) last year and has pitched 89 so far this year, so he seems to have been on safe ground. Of course, Will Carrol claims that minor league innings cannot be compared to major league innings, but you have to start somewhere.

So no, it will be very difficult to label Joba a victim of abuse.

2008-08-06 15:19:12
32.   RIYank
Has anyone else heard this rumor?

I've never heard of this blog "Ultimate Banter", but David Pinto passed it on.

In the last hour there have been some underground rumblings about Joba Chamberlain, suggesting that he has a torn (or partially torn) rotator cuff. I've checked with some reliable sources and nothing is confirmed but if this is true – calling it "bad news" would be an understatement.

2008-08-06 15:20:28
33.   cult of basebaal

that's twice in 2 years.

just awful.


2008-08-06 15:23:56
34.   cult of basebaal
the lineup from petey:

Damon CF
Jeter GIDP
Abreu RF
A. Rodriguez DH
Giambi 1B
Nady LF
Cano 2B
I. Rodriguez C
Betemit 3B


two things ...

1) yes you read teh captain's position right

2) hacky mcheadfirstslide has officially been served notice.

2008-08-06 15:28:38
35.   cult of basebaal
34 oh, and 3) that outfield's not going to be any pitcher's BFF
2008-08-06 15:30:47
36.   Vandelay Industries
27 Anecdotally, yes. Scientifically, no. There is so much more to that story than simply the pitch count. But that is a discussion that could go on for days.

To say the point has been proven is just wrong. There is a correlation, but even the correlation isn't significant, scientifically speaking.

I wasn't saying I would correlate it, but that many will, given his rapid increase from 40 to 60 to 80 to 100 with few games in which he was kept at a certain pitch count for multiple starts. Many will argue not that the overall number was too high, but like any excercise, it is always safest to plateu for a period of time once increases in weight or duration are addded. In other words, a runner doesn't run 10 miles, then 15, then 20 without running a few days or weeks at each before increasing the distance. A weightlifter doesn't add 20 pounds each workout, he/she does a week or two at one weight and only then increases it. Otherwise, muscle tears and setbacks occur. With Joba, I think the argument will be that his pitch count should not have increased so dramatically with each start, and that his former status as a starter notwithstanding, he should have had a few starts in the minors at 60, then 70-80, then 90-110, and so on. But that isn't what happened. Each start involved significantly more pitches without a plateu, and if anything helped cause this, that is what did it.

2008-08-06 15:32:55
37.   Vandelay Industries
24 Arod and his .200-.250 Avg with RISP and RISP and 2 out gets a free pass huh?
2008-08-06 15:33:43
38.   Schteeve
i guess it's only natural that in the wake of an injury to Joba, fans are going to start looking really hard for someone to blame. But seriously, can we try to avoid that?
2008-08-06 15:34:32
39.   Vandelay Industries
Damon in CF. Let the good times roll for opposing batters. Yippe Kayaeeeeeeeeeeee Mother Fucker, its double and score from first time!
2008-08-06 15:35:12
40.   Schteeve
32 It's barely a rumor. Unnamed sources don't confirm anything? What?? Why even write that?
2008-08-06 15:36:39
41.   Max
38 Amen. I think we're all very frustrated right now, but I'd prefer not to speculate too wildly until we know more about Joba's actual condition.

The sad thing, regardless of diagnosis, is that mainstream writers just don't seem to understand the pitch count thing either, so the speculation and hysteria and blame game is going to be off the charts if the news is as bad as some are venturing.

2008-08-06 15:37:31
42.   Vandelay Industries
38 I am the biggest advocate for avoiding that. It was more a of a preventive strike at those who believe that pitchers such as Francisco Liriano and Joba Chamberlain should all be treated alike, that their injuries are easiliy explained by pitch count, and that every injury is caused by throwing too many pitches as if there isn't more to the story.
2008-08-06 15:38:49
43.   cult of basebaal
this is something i didn't know ... from the most recent robothal article:

Even players who project as possible Type B free agents are considered more valuable than in the past, thanks to a change in the most recent labor agreement.

A team can now gain a sandwich pick between the first and second rounds for such a player without even offering him arbitration.

Case in point: Braves left-handed reliever Will Ohman. Though Ohman had trade value, the Braves did not receive an offer that amounted to the equivalent of a pick between the 31st and 45th selections overall.

2008-08-06 15:43:42
44.   cult of basebaal
latest update from petey:

All the Yankees are saying for now is that Joba is on the DL. Brian Cashman is flying to New York from Oklahoma City (where he attended the Bobby Murcer Memorial Service) and all the information will come from him.

Girardi claimed to have no knowledge of what Dr. Andrews said.

2008-08-06 16:08:08
45.   yankee23
33 I wholeheartedly agree. Perhaps this commercial needs to be re-done:
2008-08-06 16:08:41
46.   RIYank
37 Arod and his .200-.250 Avg with RISP and RISP and 2 out gets a free pass huh?

That's a little misleading. With RISP is avg. is .245, but his OPS is .819. He gets walked a lot with RISP, unsurprisingly, and he slugs well.

With a man on third and two out, his OPS is 1.076.

So, yeah, I guess I'd give him a pass.

2008-08-06 16:23:15
47.   tommyl
44 Yeah, and I have no knowledge of what I ate for breakfast this morning.
2008-08-06 16:32:13
48.   randym77
Update from Pete Abe:

This from Brian Cashman: Chamberlain has what is being described as rotator cuff tendinitis. He will be rested for "about a week" and then start a throwing program after being evaluated again.

He will return to New York.

Just for your own reference: "tendinitis" is a nice way to say he has a little tear in his rotator cuff.

Joe Girardi said before the game he was optimistic Joba would play again this season. But a rotator cuff issue is nothing to mess around with. Don't expect to see Chamberlain any time soon this season, if at all.

2008-08-06 16:36:44
49.   RIYank
48 Does it really mean a tear, or does it mean inflammation (which could be caused by a tear)? 'Tendinitis' usually means inflammation of a tendon.

Oh, wait, I see, that's Pete Abe giving the interpretation, not randym77.

2008-08-06 16:50:55
50.   tommyl
49 Tendinitis is not a tear at all. Its inflammation (technically from microtears, but those aren't "tears" as we know them). People get tendinitis all the time, you probably know it as tennis elbow. I get it in my knees from time to time, it requires rest, but its generally not that big a deal.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-06 16:55:19
51.   Max
My brother is a rehab doctor, and he says tendinitis is a nice, vague label in his profession. I like to be cautiously optimistic, but I also think this is the standard M.O. of Girardi/Cashman -- reveal info that doesn't reveal much at all.
2008-08-06 16:59:06
52.   RIYank
50 I get it in my achilles tendons sometimes. I'll ice the tendon and if it's bad I might skip a week of soccer.

Until I looked it up just now I didn't realize that a rotator cuff included some tendons.

So, this injury doesn't seem as serious as Pete Abe thinks. If the report is all on the level.

2008-08-06 17:00:19
53.   cult of basebaal
52 IF. i'm note sure i trust the yankees to be all that honest and forthcoming ...
2008-08-06 17:00:56
54.   dianagramr
Well, tendinitis doesn't normally get you sent to Dr. Andrews for a look-see / 2nd opinion.
2008-08-06 17:01:14
55.   OldYanksFan
"Rotator cuff tendinitis is an inflammation of the tendons of the shoulder. The shoulder joint is a ball and socket type joint where the top part of the arm bone (humerus) forms a joint with the shoulder blade (scapula). The rotator cuff holds the head of the humerus into the scapula.

Inflammation of the tendons of the shoulder muscles can occur in sports requiring the arm to be moved over the head repeatedly as in tennis, baseball (particularly pitching), swimming, and lifting weights over the head. Chronic inflammation or injury can cause the tendons of the rotator cuff to tear.

X-rays may show a bone spur, while MRI may demonstrate inflammation in the rotator cuff. If a tear in the rotator cuff is present, this can usually be identified on MRI."

So... if it is a tear, they should know about it. If they are telling the truth, he should be back in Sept.

"If the rotator cuff has sustained a complete tear, or if the symptoms persist despite conservative therapy, surgery may be necessary. Arthroscopic surgery can remove bone spurs and inflamed tissue around the shoulder.

Small tears can be treated with arthroscopic surgery. Newer techniques allow even large tears to be repaired arthroscopically, although some large tears require open surgery to repair the torn tendon."

If it's a tear, you would think he would have surgery in near future.

2008-08-06 17:03:53
56.   OldYanksFan
I'm sure most know, but tonight's game is on ESPN. Check your local listings.
2008-08-06 17:03:53
57.   cult of basebaal
if it's a rotator cuff tear and requires surgery, i'm gonna kick a puppy.
2008-08-06 17:05:48
58.   tommyl
54 But perhaps they were just being extra careful with him and wanted to be sure. Who knows, we'll see. I prefer to remain cautiously optimistic.
2008-08-06 17:06:21
59.   Vandelay Industries
53 Even assuming that they are, how much recovery time is needed for a pitcher throwing 98 MPH? I doubt it's equivalent to me staying off my bike for a week or running a few miles or playing a game of basketball. If I was a gambling man, and I am, I would bet Joba is out until the last two weeks of September unless the Yankees are out of reach of the playoffs. In that case, he's done.
2008-08-06 17:07:46
60.   ms october
well david cone is doing his damndest to make me feel better about this injury.
2008-08-06 17:07:59
61.   dianagramr

I hope you are right ....

but this is the Yankees we are talking about ...

2008-08-06 17:11:15
62.   RIYank
I think they'd send him to see Dr. Andrew even if his MRI turned out to be Manny-perfect, frankly.

If it's plain old inflammation of a tendon, it could be gone in a few days. (He's a kid, after all.) Or it could last much longer, obviously. In any case, they're committed to 15 days. I give it a 50-50 chance that that will be enough.

2008-08-06 17:12:53
63.   randym77
55 Not necessarily. They prefer conservative treatment. Torn rotator cuffs can be treated rest, exercise, etc.

IIRC, that's what happened with Wang his first year. It unfolded almost exactly like this. Shoulder injury, he got an MRI and the results were bad enough that they sent him to see Dr. Andrews.

At first, the Yankees wouldn't say what was wrong or whether he would return that season. Eventually, they admitted it was a torn rotator cuff. They opted for conservative treatment, and Wang did in fact get back before the end of the year. Without surgery.

It was earlier in the year for him than for Joba, though.

2008-08-06 17:14:01
64.   OldYanksFan
Well, they just discussed it in ESPN, stating what Girardi said (a week of rest and then see). So if they were lying, it's on national TV now.
2008-08-06 17:15:42
65.   RIYank
Awesome, our guys just dropped Tommy Hunter's ERA by like half a run.
2008-08-06 17:16:10
66.   ms october
61 you have a point dianagramr about it being the yankees - but i also think that because it is joba extra precaution is being followed (if it is truly just tendinitis and snacks had the same diagnosis, do you think they would have bothered sending snacks down). plus dr. andrews has dealt with a lot of hendricks brothers clients.

i went to dr. andrews when i was in high school. he had just started making a name for himself. it was obviously and assuredly an awful experience - that i cringe for anyone to even have to go there - you are surrounded by injury.

2008-08-06 17:16:22
67.   RIYank
Okay, Sidney Ponson, we're counting on you!

Ach, I scare myself.

2008-08-06 17:17:41
68.   RIYank
66 i went to dr. andrews when i was in high school


(Awed silence)

2008-08-06 17:21:16
69.   OldYanksFan
66 A jumping rope injury?
2008-08-06 17:21:56
70.   OldYanksFan
Snacks with a PERFECTO so far!!!!!!!
2008-08-06 17:24:34
71.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
68 nice!
i'm off this morning to the "body technician" (chiropractor) myself for some back treatment. The old guy loves baseball, will tell him about Joba. He'll probably curse and start insulting doctors, says they know nothing about the human body...

Let's Go Yankees!

2008-08-06 17:24:54
72.   tommyl
66 Eh, I had ACL/MCL recon from the old Nets team doctor when I was a kid. Now that's unpleasant.
2008-08-06 17:24:55
73.   tommyl
66 Eh, I had ACL/MCL recon from the old Nets team doctor when I was a kid. Now that's unpleasant.
2008-08-06 17:26:32
74.   Just fair
Whatever happens to Joba, he'll have a positive outlook and do whatever it takes to be ready when necessary. Whether it's 3 weeks, mid-September, or (gasp) Spring Training, as long as he's %100.
If some punk rookie throws the game of his life vs. the Yanks again so help me.....
2008-08-06 17:29:51
75.   ms october
66 69 72 definitely unpleasant - me too, tore my acl/mcl and a ton of cartiledge playing basketball
2008-08-06 17:30:55
76.   randym77
2008-08-06 17:32:19
77.   Chyll Will
74 What if he was a daft punk?
2008-08-06 17:33:11
78.   dianagramr
Sound the CI alarm .... notify Bob!
2008-08-06 17:33:33
79.   ms october
i wonder if the texas players wished byrd had rushed the mound so they could fight snacks

i guess it is an official game now that the bases are loaded

2008-08-06 17:34:08
80.   Just fair
When was it? 2 weeks ago where the boys weren't down 3-zip a half hour after the game started. Ugh.
2008-08-06 17:37:48
81.   randym77
How bizarre.
2008-08-06 17:38:19
82.   ms october
between this play and the now infamous double play bunt reversal there is too much crazy umpiring going on in texas
2008-08-06 17:39:51
83.   OldYanksFan
You guys think Instant Replay will SLOW the game down? Again, that call could have been made/confirmed within 30 seconds of the play.
2008-08-06 17:40:04
84.   OldYanksFan
2008-08-06 17:42:33
85.   Alison
Is it me or does it seem that everyone is more concerned with Ponson pitching 6+ innings rather than pitching well for at least some of those innings?
2008-08-06 17:44:46
86.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
85 Your aim is true..i hate the whole "innings eater" thing..look at Livan Hernandez for example
2008-08-06 17:46:04
87.   underdog
I might be mistaken but I think Joba's injury might be similar to the one Brad Penny had this season. He had tendinitis in the shoulder and was shelved for awhile, then came back throwing on rehab stint and is now being reactivated for the weekend. I think he was out for a month or so. But he looks okay now. Joba's might be a bit more serious but if not then he should be fine.
2008-08-06 17:46:10
88.   Just fair
Wind knocked out of both is my take. C'mon Pudge, the ambulance doesn't have any room left.
77 Then it would be okay. : )
2008-08-06 17:46:34
89.   cult of basebaal
ugh ... i've seen more snacks pontoon than i ever want to see again ... DFA his donut eating ass and bring up aceves ...

in other news, have i mentioned how much i hate the fact that for some reason baseball is allowed to turn into football for 1 play and one play only ... ban catchers blocking the plate, ban hitters from playing linebacker

2008-08-06 17:46:51
90.   OldYanksFan
Wow... neither Posada or Molina make that play. Pudge is a tough little bastard.
2008-08-06 17:48:58
91.   Just fair
So much for my take. WTF and Geeze Louise. This is insane.
2008-08-06 17:49:51
92.   tommyl
Oh good, Pudge is hurt badly now too?
2008-08-06 17:50:00
93.   Alison
All I want to know is who in the Yankees clubhouse angered the pitching/catching gods...we can't take much more of this...
2008-08-06 17:50:10
94.   monkeypants
89 I agree with you. However, catchers are already banned from blocking the plate. Unfortunately, there is nothing explicit in the rules about runners creaming fielders.

As I always say, that stupid play will continue (just good baseball, playing the game right, etc) until some beloved player--or someone threatening a record--gets his neck broken.

2008-08-06 17:50:30
95.   yankee23
89 Or maybe catchers should just be more creative about it. My former teammate would crouch next to home and basically just hover his glove near the plate so a tag was unavoidable.
2008-08-06 17:51:14
96.   Eirias
I realize that it show guts, and that not doing would invite runners to take more chances, but I don't get blocking the plate. Risking serious injury, millions of dollars wasted-type injury, to save one run?
2008-08-06 17:51:28
97.   yankee23
94 Like Ray Fosse?
2008-08-06 17:51:38
98.   Eirias
Ahh, good to see that others agree.
2008-08-06 17:52:31
99.   monkeypants
I see Molina is in for Pudge. Does this mean Pudge is hurt, or is this another clever PH/PR maneuver from our manager?
2008-08-06 17:55:40
100.   Just fair
How long before Girardi activates himself? I am probably in the minority here who accepts home plate collisions as part of the game.
One time Jeter, One freakin hit, here.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-08-06 17:55:54
101.   monkeypants
97 Nope, not high profile enough...and he was killed by a Charlie Hustle, so it's all good.

Now, maybe if Albert Pujols were to get hurt, in a season where he was chasing the HR record or a hitting streak or something...

2008-08-06 17:56:05
102.   cult of basebaal
let's all hope that betemit CRUSHES the ball tonite and johnny makes a big play in the field, because that's going to give joey joe joe positive reinforcement to keep hacky away from the plate.
2008-08-06 17:56:35
103.   dianagramr
Jeter has looked awful at bat lately ...
2008-08-06 17:57:09
104.   dianagramr

I pissed him off .... :-)

2008-08-06 17:57:36
105.   OldYanksFan
I too would like to see 'blocking the plate' eliminated. On that play, Pudge caught the ball where it was thrown, so he had to be there. Also, if you can't block the plate, it seems to put the C at a disadvantage in terms of getting into position to make the tag.
2008-08-06 17:58:10
106.   Travis08
Kevin Youkilis was hit by a pitch in the first and left the game. They haven't said whether it was just for precautionary reasons.
2008-08-06 17:58:18
107.   dianagramr

Robin Ventura destroyed his ankle sliding into home one year.

2008-08-06 17:59:27
108.   cult of basebaal
nice to see ron washington trying to make joey joe joe jr look good by comparison ... nice call to draw the infield in, ronnie!
2008-08-06 17:59:53
109.   OldYanksFan
We need a double and an A-Bomb
2008-08-06 18:00:18
110.   Travis08
108 Ron Washington supposedly always plays the infield in, regardless of the situation.
2008-08-06 18:02:26
111.   monkeypants
105 There's no need to eliminate anything from the C perspective. The rules are pretty clear: if the C doesn't have the ball, he can't get in the way; if he has the ball, he can. The problem is not with the C, it's with the runner being allowed--apparently--to run over the catcher when he is out by 20 feet.
2008-08-06 18:03:30
112.   monkeypants
106 Knocked out of the game? That pitcher will get suspended for three weeks.
2008-08-06 18:04:26
113.   cult of basebaal
well, can't say i've seen that play before
2008-08-06 18:04:47
114.   yankee23
111 Runner has right to the basepath though. Which unfortunately gives him the right to "run through" the catcher.
2008-08-06 18:05:25
115.   OldYanksFan
111 I agree. The 'shoulder down' crash into the C is especially scary. A simple fix would be to require sliding into home on all close plays... unless in the judgement of the ump, not sliding was a more legitimate play.
2008-08-06 18:07:55
116.   cult of basebaal
remember last year when it seemed like you wanted to stop whatever you were doing and watch every arod at bat? yeah, that was fun ...
2008-08-06 18:08:21
117.   Just fair
115 Then the slider is risking a possible broken foot, ankle, leg or arm, finger, wrist.
Things should just remain as is. IMO.
2008-08-06 18:08:27
118.   ms october
110 guess he doesn't understand that snacks is part of this situation

114 but is the base, or in this case the plate, part of the basepath?

2008-08-06 18:09:01
119.   monkeypants
114 That's what needs to be clarified in the rules. The runner has the right to the base path, but all of us would agree that it is illegal for a runner (say, A-Rod) to intentionally try to slap the ball out of the fielder's glove. That fielder has the right to make the play on the runner.

All MLB needs to do is clarify what a runner is and is not allowed to do on plays where he is beaten to the base/plate by the throw. Can he punch the fielder? Kick him in the nuts? Kick him in the face? Poke him in the eye? etc.

2008-08-06 18:09:28
120.   ms october
118 what i mean is when does the basepath stop - shouldn't it stop at the base or plate?
2008-08-06 18:09:50
121.   cult of basebaal
man, manny going apeshit in dodger blue ... at least 2 hits in every game, 3 homers, 6 runs and 7 rbi ... of course, joey joe joe sr doing his best to give it back by playing juan pierre at every opportunity ...
2008-08-06 18:09:50
122.   OldYanksFan
Excellent pick by Giambino
2008-08-06 18:10:54
123.   cult of basebaal
118 seriously, playing for 1 run in the 3rd inning with your great hitting team facing snacks pontoon, just a complete misreading of the game situation ...
2008-08-06 18:11:11
124.   JL25and3
101 In a freakin' exhibition game, no less. That very second, I stopped liking the ASG.

I don't see what rule change would be reasonable on that play. At every other base, the rule is that the runner has to be going for the base - at least, he has to be making some vague approximation of it. But as long as he is, he's got the right to try to knock the ball out of the fielder's glove, or even to knock the fielder down. If the second baseman were fool enough to stand in front of the base and try to block the runner, he'd get knocked down, too.

2008-08-06 18:11:27
125.   monkeypants
117 There is a world of difference between a player who accidentally gets hurt by sliding (or running) awkwardly, and a player who gets hurt because the runner intentionally obliterates him. I think it's sort of silly to equate the two.
2008-08-06 18:12:24
126.   OldYanksFan
2008-08-06 18:12:39
127.   yankee23
120 Yeah, it should, but the catcher isn't going to stand behind the plate to make a tag (though it would probably be just as effective).

119 I agree wholeheartedly. Something needs to be clarified in there.

2008-08-06 18:13:00
128.   cult of basebaal
2008-08-06 18:13:10
129.   ms october
damn that collision took out david murphy too
2008-08-06 18:14:13
130.   cult of basebaal
obviously, all that jason needs is to oscillate between hirsute and clean shaven

i still think his next facial hair should be mutton chops ...

2008-08-06 18:15:11
131.   ms october
128 nice, i like that call
2008-08-06 18:15:56
132.   yankee23
It kills me checking the scoreboard on and seeing Karstens still in his Yankee uniform with those numbers.
2008-08-06 18:16:13
133.   Just fair
125 I agree. I was referring to the proposed rule by OYF of having a requirement of runners to slide on close plays. Again, I am of the opinion that collisons are part of the game, especially at home plate.
2008-08-06 18:17:37
134.   Alison
132 Almost a perfect game up to the 8th inning today. And we get Snacks...
2008-08-06 18:18:57
135.   Eirias
112 What happened? Or are you referring to some sort of Sox bias?
2008-08-06 18:21:39
136.   cult of basebaal
133 lots of things that have been "part of the game" have been changed ... things that were never "part of the game" have been added ... helmets were never "part of the game" until they were, they were added for the safety of the participants, just as a change in these specific rules would be
2008-08-06 18:23:13
137.   dianagramr
Have you all signed the on-line memorial guest book for Bobby Murcer?

2008-08-06 18:23:42
138.   cult of basebaal
134 i'd rather see snacks than scary fly ball guy ... karstens is a beat down waiting to happen ... remember, rasner was lights out for his first 4 starts as well ... until the league figured out he didn't have an out pitch ... in his 15 innings of shutout ball, karstens has 4ks and a 1x1 K/BB ratio
2008-08-06 18:24:44
139.   JL25and3
Why should a fielder be able to end a play - have an automatic out called, in effect - simply by standing in front of the base with the ball?
2008-08-06 18:25:19
140.   cult of basebaal
update on pudge from petey:

UPDATE, 9:21 p.m.: Pudge has a bruised right knee. No tests required. He's day-to-day. Now that I actually believe.

2008-08-06 18:27:17
141.   cult of basebaal
funny to hear nolan talking about getting his pitchers in better shape with hunter on the mound ...

not so funny to hear him talk about riding his young pitchers like rented mules ...

2008-08-06 18:28:53
142.   Just fair
136 I would venture to guess that more injuries have occurred with outfielders colliding with each other, infielders crashing into outfielders, and any fielder crashing into the outfileld wall, tarp, camera well etc, etc.
2008-08-06 18:29:32
143.   cult of basebaal
little update tidbit from espn on joba:

Yankees manager Joe Girardi said he had no specifics to report regarding Chamberlain's examination by noted orthopedic surgeon Dr. James Andrews in Alabama, but a source told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney that Andrews told the Yankees he doesn't believe Chamberlain's injury is a long-term problem.

2008-08-06 18:30:16
144.   51cq24
was that a called strike??
2008-08-06 18:32:17
145.   ms october
140 pete's editorializing is getting a bit much. perhaps i am being overly sensitive the past few days becuase of joba, but it seems he is going to ride this issue completely into the ground.
pete is certainly a great beat writer and has provided tremendous access and information about the team, but his analysis and editorials go too far.
i guess it is just almost impossible when people blow up for them to remember what what got them to that point.
2008-08-06 18:33:54
146.   monkeypants
139 It's only an automatic out if the runner decides to advance, right? If the fielder has the ball and is standing in front of the base, he wins--it's the runner's fault for trying to advance when he shouldn't have.

I'm not talking about bang-bang plays, where the runner and ball arrive at the same time. I'm talking about plays at home where the runner is out by 15 or 20 feet. It just doesn't seem right to me that the runner, in that case, should be allowed to obliterate the fielder.

2008-08-06 18:35:43
147.   cult of basebaal
145 i dunno, it doesn't feel like he's changed very much, at least to me, he dished out plenty of snarky, lousy analysis last year, too. (e.g. how he treated edwar and josh phelps last year)
2008-08-06 18:35:55
148.   Max
Nice job by the GIDP machine in the twilight of his career.
2008-08-06 18:36:42
149.   cult of basebaal
148 nice job by girardi to send damon and remove the GIDP temptation ...
2008-08-06 18:36:59
150.   Just fair
146 It's Meacham's fault when the runner tries to advance when he should not have. : )
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-08-06 18:37:29
151.   OldYanksFan
Man... this ballgame is getting in the way of Ryan's interview.
2008-08-06 18:38:03
152.   cult of basebaal
now remember, alex, K-ROD is a pitcher who plays for Anaheim ... that's not you.
2008-08-06 18:39:01
153.   JL25and3
146 Just as it's only a collision if the catcher decides to block the baseline.
2008-08-06 18:40:09
154.   JL25and3
145 He's presenting it quite obviously as opinion and commentary, not as reporting facts. It's a blog, not a news article.
2008-08-06 18:40:27
155.   Max
It's Emma's favorite on the mound! I feel a song coming on...
2008-08-06 18:40:53
156.   OldYanksFan
Holy Fuck! How was that possible?
2008-08-06 18:41:25
157.   cult of basebaal
152 on second thoughts, you'd be better off striking out ... christ, who is that alien pod person and what has he done with arod?
2008-08-06 18:42:59
158.   OldYanksFan
That's it. I hope Madonna cuts him off!
2008-08-06 18:44:17
159.   Max
155 well, that song is making my ears bleed at this point...a tune that's been played way too much in this series...
2008-08-06 18:46:36
160.   Max
145 I'm on Pete's side on this one. It's the Yankees' prerogative to be evasive on injuries, but it's also Pete's prerogative to point out holes and question what's being shared with the press.

The way details are being shared/not shared/lied about is remarkably similar to the way the Patriots leak out details/non-details about their players. Pete is a Pats fan, so he's probably very familiar with the doubletalk.

2008-08-06 18:47:49
161.   ms october
157 arod doesn't want to be back in texas either

154 i know that it is a blog, and he is entitled to his opinion, but as a
credentialed reporter and someone who built his blog up quite successfully by providing information, i don't think his snarky comments as cult aptly describes it are necessary, and i think it detracts from what he is doing - i can surely ignore what i don't care for, and plan to.

2008-08-06 18:48:47
162.   monkeypants
153 Not equivalent.

Just look at Rule 7.06 Note: [paraphrase] The catcher has the right to block the base path if he has the ball, he has no right to block the path without the ball.

Also, look at rule 7.09 (L): [paraphrase] the runner has to avoid a fielder who is trying to field a batted ball, even if it is in the basepath.

Taken together, these rules suggest that the runner's right to the base path is not unlimited. The runner should not be allowed to collide intentionally with a fielder with the ball, who has the right to his position (which, as I see it, should supersede the runner's right to the path).

So long as the fielder has the ball.

2008-08-06 18:51:21
163.   Just fair
The current wealth of sweet swinging 2nd baseman around the league reminds me of the "New Age" shortstops back in the late 90's. Cano, Utley, Kinsler, Pedroia (cack), Uggla (poor fielder)....anyone else?
2008-08-06 18:52:38
164.   cult of basebaal
yeah, like jason said ... that call was bullshit.
2008-08-06 18:52:47
165.   51cq24
i'd like to hear the honest information as soon as possible, but why is it such an issue? it's annoying not to hear, but there's nothing any of us can do about it one way or another. i don't really understand why teams don't just tell us what they know, but i also don't understand what real difference it makes. if they looked at the mri and it looked all right but they wanted to get a 2nd opinion, they could have just said what was going on, but i don't particularly care that they waited. i'm just pissed that joba's hurt.

i'm also pissed that this umpire is calling strikes a foot outside the zone on either side.

2008-08-06 18:53:36
166.   OldYanksFan
I'm really getting tired of the Nolan Ryan show. Enough already! There's a ballgame going on.

With Minn and TB winning, and Boston on it's way, this is a big Win (chickens... hatch... count) especially with Snacks on the mound.

2008-08-06 18:54:05
167.   ms october
160 i don't have a problem with pete being annoyed or whatver by the way the yanks put out information, and to a point, i don't mind him pointing out discrepancies or what not, i just personally don't care for the editorializing and speculation:
"Just for your own reference: 'tendinitis' is often a nice way to say he has a little tear in his rotator cuff."
"Now that I actually believe."
and so on.

as i said in 161 it's his blog - he can basically do what he wants, i am not a fan of that part of the blog, and i think that he is getting away from what he made his name on

2008-08-06 18:54:06
168.   Just fair
The ball jumps like madness to right centerfield. Hotdamn.
2008-08-06 18:54:16
169.   OldYanksFan
Nady goes the other way pretty well.
2008-08-06 18:57:13
170.   monkeypants
165 I agree. My operating procedure is simply to ignore anything the Yankees say about injuries and assume the worst.
2008-08-06 18:59:03
171.   Chyll Will
165 Honestly, if you were less than a die-hard fan, would you show up to a Ponson-pitched game when it should be Joba? Knowing the actual circumstances might actually turn off fans from coming to the game (or tuning into them) if they got the notion that it the loss was critical to the team's success, coupled with the recent stumbling play of the remaining batch. The team's playing with the notion of hope (for various reasons) so the paying customers, er, fans don't go all Florida Marlins on them...
2008-08-06 18:59:39
172.   Alex Belth
Hey, evening everyone.

Not for nothing, but I'd say Pudge stepped up tonight. That play in the first--after that hilarious sequence with Cano the Melon Headed--was c***nballs all the way. If it had happened at the Stadium, Pudge would be an instant hero.

Nice game for Jetes and man, a little slump for A Rod, huh? But Nady is looking good and another dinger for Stacheless Giambino.

2008-08-06 19:01:06
173.   JL25and3
162 No, you misread the second rule. When a fielder's holding the ball in his hand, he's no longer "trying to field" it.

I didn't actually see the play when it happened, so I just saw the replay for the first time. The runner wasn't out by 15-20 feet, not by any means.

2008-08-06 19:01:29
174.   ms october
166 oyf - i hope you are taking good care of the rest of the eggs
2008-08-06 19:01:32
175.   Chyll Will
171 My apologies, Snacks >;)
2008-08-06 19:02:59
176.   Chyll Will
172 What-nballs??
2008-08-06 19:04:12
177.   Just fair
Now that's a catch. Take notes, Abreu.
2008-08-06 19:04:49
178.   OldYanksFan
Nady is not exactly fleet of foot, but I like the guy.
2008-08-06 19:05:04
179.   ms october
nady with the nice catch.
glad he has settled in so well after the whirlwind bos series.
2008-08-06 19:05:11
180.   Alex Belth
Smooth play by Nady.
2008-08-06 19:05:18
181.   monkeypants
173 I did not misread the rule. I am merely pointing out that the runner's right to the base path is not unlimited.
2008-08-06 19:06:25
182.   Just fair
They should send every regular to play in Pittsburgh for a week. Nady's been playing his balls off.
2008-08-06 19:06:28
183.   alittleblackegg
163 Minnesota's Alexi Casilla? .775 OPS so far this season, his first full one, before getting injured.
2008-08-06 19:07:08
184.   Bama Yankee
176 At first I thought it was "cottonballs", but there's not enough asterisks... ;-)
2008-08-06 19:07:10
185.   cult of basebaal
shit ... i thought that was a lazy flyball ... betemit has some mad strength.
2008-08-06 19:07:27
186.   ms october
damn you hamilton.
we have gotten to see a good bit of betemit's power potential the last handful of games.
2008-08-06 19:08:39
187.   dianagramr
Madrigal Mystery Tour?
2008-08-06 19:09:00
188.   JL25and3
181 OK, then I just don't see how it's relevant. Neither the runner nor the fielder has unlimited right to anything. So?
2008-08-06 19:09:31
189.   cult of basebaal
warner madrigal looks like the strange lovechild of jack black, shrek and oscar gamble's afro ...
2008-08-06 19:09:50
190.   Alex Belth
I really like Singy and Coney.
2008-08-06 19:10:03
191.   dianagramr
League has started to notice Jeter is totally baffled by off-speed stuff.
2008-08-06 19:10:22
192.   Bama Yankee
187 nice.
2008-08-06 19:10:58
193.   dianagramr

(wiping water off the monitor) lol

2008-08-06 19:11:41
194.   Alex Belth
Nice hairdoo...
2008-08-06 19:12:29
195.   Max
167 I understand that the snark and dismissiveness around certain players and issues can be a bit much. However, the editorializing and other touches of his personality are arguably what make him so successful -- his blog isn't just a mild rehash of what the Yankees give him plus other cute tidbits from his beat reporter access to the clubhouse.

Guys like Feinsand and Kepner are very bland by comparison. I think you have to take a bit of the bad with the good in the way Pete runs his blog, and (for now) I think it's weighted heavily toward the good...or at least interesting.

Also, keep in mind that his tone is calibrated toward his audience, which tend to be fans that are a little more excitable, entitled, and pugnacious, and there's a lot of "backup quarterback" type excitement around certain players and prospects that Pete likes to have fun with. Pete is who he is, but he might be a little less snarky around Banter or RLYW type commenters.

2008-08-06 19:12:34
196.   Bama Yankee
189 ROFL. Good call.
2008-08-06 19:13:58
197.   JL25and3
190 I like the combo too, especially since it's Kayless. Singleton is clearly their best PBP guy - and I don't think he's as good as a second banana.
2008-08-06 19:16:01
198.   Just fair
Here's my take on Madrigal
Hint: What's Happening!
2008-08-06 19:22:09
199.   monkeypants
188 It is relevant because the "collision play" hinges on the runner's right to the base path. For those who see the runner's right as more expansive, they would argue that the fielder is "at fault" for blocking the path and therefore fair game to get run over.

I argue that the right of the runner is much more limited, both according to the letter and the spirit of the rules. Therefore, I tend to favor the right of the fielder, so long as he has the ball.

Compare the "collision play" with A-Rod's slap play. To tag A-Rod, the Red Sox fielder (who was that, anyway?) had to obstruct the base path in some way. Yet A-Rod was not allowed to intentionally dislodge the ball by slapping the fielder's fact, he was called out.

I simply do not see how the "collision play" is any different. If the catcher has the ball ahead of the runner, I do not see why the runner is allowed to intentionally dislodge it in the most violent of fashions.

2008-08-06 19:28:46
200.   Max
199 Brandon Arroyo was the fielder.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-08-06 19:29:52
201.   Chyll Will
189 Get ready for the THUNDAHH!!! >;)

You could probably throw in Gentle Ben or Ling-Ling the panda in that gene-pool...

2008-08-06 19:32:42
202.   weeping for brunnhilde
That's some head of hair that Madrigal guy's got.
2008-08-06 19:32:50
203.   Chyll Will
189 Get ready for the THUNDAHH!!! >;)

You could probably throw in Gentle Ben or Ling-Ling the panda in that gene-pool...

2008-08-06 19:34:59
204.   Chyll Will
203 Oops. I'm leaving now, being harangued from all sides, thus the repetition. G'nite all...
2008-08-06 19:35:43
205.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hey, Team, I'm just tuning in. Score looks nice. Has it been a crisply played, professional game?
2008-08-06 19:38:31
206.   Max
Wow, guys with 7 ERAs are like Kryptonite for this team. We can knock John Lackey and Scot Shields out of a game, but we can't score against Matt Harrison and Warner Madrigal.

Note to Joe: you have Edwar, Marte and Mo available today. Please do not allow your relievers to throw 40+ pitches and pitch themselves out of bases loaded jams when they've lost the zone by two to three feet (well, except for Mo obviously).

2008-08-06 19:39:13
207.   weeping for brunnhilde
Shouldn't Mo be warming or something? Or are we playing it safe due to his stiffness?
2008-08-06 19:42:46
208.   weeping for brunnhilde
Looked like Robby had plenty of time to go to second, but I guess he wisely went for the sure thing?
2008-08-06 19:42:59
209.   JL25and3
100 Here's the story on the Rodriguez slap (Bronson Arroyo was the fielder). I think it answers your question about the rules specifying how far a runner is allowed to go:

"Although Rodriguez committed interference, there is no language in the rulebook that is available to the public that prohibits a runner from using his hands to avoid a tag or any other reason. It is. however, outlined in the supplemental rulebook given to umpires in section 6.1. It reads: "While contact may occur between a fielder and runner during a tag attempt, a runner is not allowed to use his hands or arms to commit an obviously malicious or unsportsmanlike act--such as grabbing, tackling, intentionally slapping at the baseball, punching, kicking, flagrantly using his arms or forearms, etc. to commit an intentional act of interference unrelated to running the bases."

Notice the rule allows for contact. If Rodriguez lowered his shoulder and ran over Arroyo, this would have been perfectly legal."

2008-08-06 19:44:00
210.   51cq24
208 would have been tough with his momentum going towards 1st
2008-08-06 19:47:16
211.   pistolpete
Ok, could we be careful with Mr. Grand Slam here...?
2008-08-06 19:48:03
212.   monkeypants
209 That both answers and confuses the issue at the same time. So, slapping is out, but bowling over is in? Crashing into a fielder would not constitute an "obviously malicious or unsportsmanlike act?" Lowering the shoulder would not be included in the "etc" of "flagrantly using his arms or forearms, etc."?


Well, if I ruled the universe--bwahahahah--I would clarify things more explicitly: no crashing into the fielder intentionally.

2008-08-06 19:50:18
213.   OldYanksFan
213 You have my vote.
2008-08-06 19:50:22
214.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice job, pen, nice job.
2008-08-06 19:51:29
215.   monkeypants
213 You too.
2008-08-06 19:51:41
216.   weeping for brunnhilde
210 Yeah, fair enough. It's just that the runner seemed to just be crossing his path as he fielded the ball.
2008-08-06 19:52:16
217.   pistolpete
Does a heart good to see Mo warming up, no?
2008-08-06 19:53:07
218.   pistolpete
No problem Cano, not like we need some insurance runs or anything.
2008-08-06 19:53:50
219.   51cq24
218 i think this is incompatible with 217
2008-08-06 19:55:44
220.   nick
wow, Sutcliffe thinks Joba goes back to the 8th inning for good, cause "he's been hurt in the last 3 years."


does this guy have any idea what he's talking about???

2008-08-06 19:55:48
221.   pistolpete
219 Yeah, but still.
2008-08-06 19:56:47
222.   nick
"Joba wasn't ready to start" is gonna be as common as "Billy Beane wrote that book" in what, a week?

I hate, hate, hate ESPfuckingN.

2008-08-06 19:57:44
223.   pistolpete
222 Was Hughes not ready to start last year when he popped a hammy? Cee-ripes.
2008-08-06 19:58:21
224.   Max
220 I thought that was absurd too. I like that he called it as it is about the info the Yankees are providing about injuries (and said the Red Sox are similar)..."they borderline lie to you".

Translation: don't trust what the Yankees tell you about an injury. Good advice.

2008-08-06 20:01:07
225.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice ab, Derek.
2008-08-06 20:02:48
226.   dianagramr

Sut must still be hitting the bottle and hoping to bang Erin Andrews ...

2008-08-06 20:03:36
227.   JL25and3
212 I didn't think there was anything flagrant in this particular play. The runner had a full head of steam, and the catcher more or less stepped into his path. Ahead of him, yes, but not by all that much.

Again, if any other baseman deliberately blocks the runner from reaching the bag - independently of his efforts to make the tag - the runner has the right to go through him.

It's not that the runner has unfettered rights, it's that both players have equal rights.

2008-08-06 20:04:47
228.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice hustle by Abreu.

Oh well, bring on The Great One.

2008-08-06 20:05:44
229.   weeping for brunnhilde
220 Sutcliffe is a horse's ass.

Maybe even two horses' asses.

2008-08-06 20:07:41
230.   monkeypants
227 I think that we agree more than not. In practice, equal rights as you describe them don't really work. I would say that the position of the ball determines whose rights win out. If the catcher has the ball, no collision; if the he doesn't, no blocking the plate.

And of course, this would depend on the judgement of the umpire in the case of close or bang-bang plays. I didn't see tonight's particular play, but if the ball only just arrived at the same time as the runner, then a no call is in order.

2008-08-06 20:09:11
231.   weeping for brunnhilde
Mariano Rivera, ladies and gentlemen.

What a revelation.

2008-08-06 20:11:05
232.   RIYank
Hey, folks.

I caught the beginning of the game, up to when I-Rod got blasted. And now I've got back just in time for Mo time!

2008-08-06 20:11:33
233.   pistolpete
I just don't see how Caple can write a whole article about how the closer's role is overrated after watching this man work for more than 10 years now...

oops, jinxed it. Single.

2008-08-06 20:11:46
234.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice hitting, Davis.

Tip of the hat.

2008-08-06 20:13:50
235.   RIYank
233 The closer is overrated. That doesn't mean all closers are overrated!
2008-08-06 20:13:55
236.   Just fair
1 year ago tonight, the Yanks were 62-50. 5 gb of Bos.
Today the Yanks are 62-52 6.5 gb of TB.
Keep fightin' the good fight, fellas! : )
FWIF they were 1/2 a game behind Detroit and 1/2 game up on Seattle for the WC.
And the artists formerly known as the Devil Rays were
42 and 69. Yikes.
2008-08-06 20:14:47
237.   RIYank
That's a good feeling.

Well, let's do it again tomorrow.

2008-08-06 20:15:29
238.   dianagramr
night all ....
2008-08-06 20:16:25
239.   weeping for brunnhilde
237 Do let's.
2008-08-06 20:16:50
240.   Max
Nice job Mo! And got to tip your cap to Ponson.
2008-08-06 20:16:51
241.   pistolpete
235 Like I've said to friends, ask a team that doesn't have a guy who can slam the door in the late innings how overrated closers are.

Ask the Tigers, ask the Mets about once or twice a week. ;-)

2008-08-06 20:19:01
242.   Mattpat11
Fine win. Lets get Moose number 265 now.
2008-08-06 20:19:48
243.   RIYank
241 I know, but still.
Look, the Red Sox would be better if they could have converted Papelbon to a starter. Right? And (present circumstances aside) the Yankees are better for having converted Joba.

We're in a special situation. Any given year, only a few teams have a real lights-out closer. And only one team has had one for a decade.

2008-08-06 20:34:22
244.   Max
243 Interesting. I wonder...if Mo actually (god forbid) shows signs of slipping next year...and the injury concerns don't abate for Joba...would they try to turn Joba back into a Mo successor? I know it's ludicrous, but given what happened with Papelbon, I suppose it can't be ruled out.
2008-08-06 20:43:41
245.   weeping for brunnhilde
Aw, fuck. Just heard about Joba.

I was in denial, hoping he'd just miss a start.

Damn it.

Not good.

2008-08-06 20:47:10
246.   weeping for brunnhilde
I like Pudge a lot.

I'm happy to have him.

We should definitely bring him back next year, if he and Jorgie could somehow work out an arrangement.

2008-08-06 20:49:58
247.   JL25and3
241 , 243 It's not the pitcher that's overrated, it's the role.

An exceptional relief pitcher has significant value.

Using that pitcher in the rigid "closer" role - essentially, having his usage defined by a statistic rather than a game situation - is a poor way to maximize that value.

2008-08-06 21:48:40
248.   Schteeve
Joba heading to the DL isn't the end of the world. It sucks, it hurts, it a blow to the ego but they can still get the WC. I'm not optimistic that they will, but they could.
2008-08-06 21:51:09
249.   weeping for brunnhilde
248 If they can consistently hit like they're capable of, then yes, they can.

It's all on the hitters.

Robby has to remain hot and Alex has to step up a bit more and be a flat-out menace.

2008-08-06 21:56:53
250.   Schteeve
249 I think the offense will live and die on the backs of Abreu, Jeter, and Nady.

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