Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Ouch, I Say Ouch
2008-08-05 10:08
by Alex Belth

Will Carroll gives his initial take on Joba today over at BP:

The early word is that his muscle tightened up due to a combination of the blistering heat (I sat in that heat the night before, and yeah, it's a huge factor) and fatigue. It's the latter that's most worrisome given Chamberlain's switch of roles. While he built up his arm strength, no one has any idea how the fatigue will be affected by the shape of his season. He's headed back to New York for tests, so we'll know more soon, but early reports and sources tell me that things look relatively positive, based both on the pain's location, and on his reaction. Expect the Yanks to be ultra-conservative, and for Chamberlain to miss a start at least.

Nuthin to do but wait. Must be a fun time for Brian Cashman, huh?

Comments (336)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-05 10:52:19
1.   OldYanksFan
Worry about fatigue? Freakin' Joba is a bull who routinely throws in the mid 90's in the 7th inning. Might the heat and possible dehydration gotten to him? Sure. Is this something to worry about? No.

I don't know how many times Joba has pitched in Texas, or anywhere where it is over 100 degrees. I imagine there is a learning curve to maintaining your strength in those conditions. If it is indeed just some muscle 'fatigue', it's about the best news we have had all year.

I remember the first time I was in Texas. I was warned of the heat, but hell, NH gets into the high 90's at times, and I been to islands on the equator. Bull hell (and I mean that literally), Texas was something new. I was there and I still couldn't believe how hot it was!

2008-08-05 10:56:15
2.   jonm
Uh oh. If Will Carroll says that Joba is probably okay, that means in reality that we're not going to see Joba pitching again until spring training 2010.
2008-08-05 11:37:38
3.   Yankee Fan In Boston
the first thing that went through my mind was hughes' no-no interruptus, which also happened in texas.

[insert oliver stone one-liner here]

everything coming out of the organization says that this is minor, but i won't feel at ease until i see him throwing smoke with my own two eyes.

2008-08-05 12:20:34
4.   Jeb
Seems to me that Will Carroll is the Mac-Daddy on injuries. I think we'll know more tonight (or tomorrow) and the Yanks can go from there. I hoped they'd call IPK up for Rasner anyway (not that I don't like Giese, I just like Giese as the long guy out of the pen). So, maybe they'll call him up and he can EARN the 5th starter position.

If Joba misses 1 start it won't be the end of the world, particularly if Hughes is ready to return by the end of the the month for the home stretch.

Don't lose hope yet. Don't lose hope.

2008-08-05 13:27:10
5.   Raf
4 Don't lose hope yet. Don't lose hope

2008-08-05 13:31:44
6.   Yankee Fan In Boston
5 no way. this is either a brilliant promotion, or the thunder expect the medical emergency that will certainly follow pavano's rehab assignment there thursday night.

this is a quote from raf's link heralding pavano's start in trenton on thursday:

"Thursday's game is Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield of New Jersey Night at Waterfront Park. There will be a health fair on the stadium concourse..."

too perfect.

2008-08-05 13:33:22
7.   Yankee Fan In Boston
5 jeez... it just keeps getting better...

"St. Lawrence Rehabilitation Center is the presenting partner of "2008 Thunder Rehabs". St. Lawrence Rehabilitation Center is a 129-bed, fully accredited, not-for-profit, physical rehabilitation hospital in Lawrenceville, NJ. It offers comprehensive rehabilitation services for both inpatients and outpatients, and has been serving the community for over 35 years. As a rehabilitation hospital, St. Lawrence has seen the traumatic effects of injuries and is committed to safety education and injury prevention in our community. The hospital has been a Trenton Thunder partner since 1999 and is proud to work with the Thunder in various safety initiatives."

2008-08-05 13:36:11
8.   Raf
Dude, you have no idea how difficult it has been, stifling laughter in my cubicle for the past half hour
2008-08-05 13:39:37
9.   Raf
If it weren't for the fact that I'm going to Boston this weekend, I'd be in Trenton, watching this historical occasion. I mean, I could be one of a few who can say that I saw Carl Pavano pitch in a game.
2008-08-05 13:43:22
10.   Yankee Fan In Boston
have fun over here, raf.
2008-08-05 13:51:48
11.   Raf
10 Will do. I'm just going to be in for the day. The reason I'm going is the Futures at Fenway doubleheader. I was there in 2006, and had a pretty good time milling around the park and the surrounding area.

2008-08-05 13:54:06
12.   MC Safety
2 Looks like he was a bit off re: Chad Billingsley.
2008-08-05 16:04:43
13.   Vandelay Industries
Who wants to be the first to say we actually "need" Carl Pavano?
2008-08-05 16:25:40
14.   tommyl
Via PeteAbe:


Chamberlain had an MRI today in New York. The Yankees would not reveal what it showed. However, Joba is being sent to Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham, Ala., for another examination tomorrow.

Girardi did not say who would start on Saturday. The first name he mentioned as a possibility was Darrell Rasner


Yeah, that doesn't sound too good to me. Le sigh.

2008-08-05 16:30:24
15.   weeping for brunnhilde
13 Carl who?
2008-08-05 16:32:46
16.   randym77
Ugh. That sounds like bad news. James Andrews is the shoulder guy they sent Posada to, isn't he?

The lineup's been posted. It's Christian instead of Melky again. And Sexson at 1B.

2008-08-05 16:32:53
17.   tommyl
15 You know, number 134.
2008-08-05 16:41:21
18.   OldYanksFan
I think the Yanks are being cautious with both Joba and the media. Let's keep our fingers crossed.
2008-08-05 16:46:09
19.   JL25and3
Btw, Alex, can I assume that your headline is a Foghorn Leghorn (or Senator Claghorn) reference?
2008-08-05 16:47:35
20.   dianagramr
Having seen the video from the inning, and where Joba was pointing, I'd venture a worst case guess of deltoid strain or partial tear.

I also believe that the sudden back flop he had to do to avoid I-Rod's throw may have had something to do with the injury. He may have tweaked/jammed something then.

2008-08-05 16:50:06
21.   Sliced Bread
Is Ivan sitting tonight because he tried to kill Joba? This I do not understand.
2008-08-05 16:56:17
22.   randym77
Maybe it's just a matter of Molina and Pettitte knowing each other better. Andy and Pudge were kinda out of synch last time.
2008-08-05 16:56:17
23.   RIYank
Pete's next update is a little more pessimistic. Here's the actual news, without Pete's editorializing:

UPDATE, 6:41 p.m.: Just spoke to Brian Cashman. He said the Yankees know what the images showed but until they hear from Andrews, they're not going to reveal what that is.

2008-08-05 17:02:00
24.   randym77
23 That don't sound good. In fact, that sounds terrible.
2008-08-05 17:02:07
25.   dianagramr

sigh .... sounds more like a tear then ....

2008-08-05 17:02:51
26.   Sliced Bread
I'm all for Andy being comfortable and all, but Plan A calls for Pettitte to be in sync with Ivan. Let's get that battery going. We have a series to win. Should Molina be more than a house money bet at the sake of Ivan's bat? Not the way I see it.
2008-08-05 17:05:46
27.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
26 agreed. shouldn't a pitcher with Pettite's experience be able to throw to anyone? Am I missing something?
2008-08-05 17:06:41
28.   cult of basebaal
it's also hotter than living hell in TX right now, joey joe joe might be trying to keep his catchers fresh for the entire trip ... or not ... i'd rather know WTF sexson is doing in the lineup after 'stacheless's 3-4 night
2008-08-05 17:07:51
29.   cult of basebaal
25 when it comes to shoulder injuries ... a deltoid strain ... or even tear ... is just sooooo much better than several worse case scenarios, that i'd be pretty relieved by that diagnosis.
2008-08-05 17:09:47
30.   OldYanksFan
I heard Pudge was tiring in Detroit and was not quite a full time carcher anymore. Combine that with the fact that Molina is excellent on D and our pitchers really like him, I expect Pudge to start 60-70% of our games. He can always PH for Molina in critical ABs if necessary.
2008-08-05 17:12:59
31.   dianagramr

Yes .... strict "rotator cuff" injuries are more of a wear and tear issue. This seemed to be more of a "traumatic" injury. He hadn't been showing any signs of trouble prior to last night (reduced velocity / movement), so I believe he overextended himself on a pitch and/or tweaked something when doing the back flop.

This is not to say it ISN'T "rotator cuff" related, since the deltoid is one of the 6 muscles related to the cuff, but I would have been more concerned cuff-wise if he couldn't raise his arm, or pointed to his shoulder blade.

2008-08-05 17:15:14
32.   OldYanksFan
This doesn't help much, but if it is Grade 1, it doesn't sound too bad.
2008-08-05 17:15:53
33.   Sliced Bread
sunglasses, Johnny?
2008-08-05 17:17:39
34.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO

sorry, how do you make those "tinyurl" links??

2008-08-05 17:21:34
35.   Sliced Bread
34 bring yer big link to
2008-08-05 17:24:40
36.   Sliced Bread
Pett's far from in sync with Molina.
2008-08-05 17:24:43
37.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
35 thanks!

this is going to be a long game..isn't it?

2008-08-05 17:31:04
38.   Shaun P
37 I hope not, but I think you're right.

There's also a firefox plugin for tinyurl, you just right click on the page and select "Create TinyURL for this page" - if you use firefox.

2008-08-05 17:37:10
39.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Sexson, Molina and Christian at the bottom of the lineup..yuck...
2008-08-05 17:37:19
40.   Max
I think I'm ready to call up another pitcher and DFA Sexson.
2008-08-05 17:38:12
41.   Jeb
When Joba comes to Birmingham tomorrow I'd be happy to let him stay with us for free. I wonder if I could get a ball signed at the airport?
2008-08-05 17:38:40
42.   dianagramr
Pettitte's last 1+ starts have been less than inspiring ...
2008-08-05 17:39:39
43.   dianagramr

I don't want Joba using that golden arm for anything like that, at least until Dr. Andrews sees him.

2008-08-05 17:39:51
44.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
41 got enough food in the fridge if you invite him over? his rump looks Clemens-esque...rather terrifying
2008-08-05 17:40:23
45.   cult of basebaal
lovely, lovely ... anyone else have this deepening sense of doom about this road trip after last night and pettite's likely 2nd stinker in a row?
2008-08-05 17:40:46
46.   OldYanksFan
Not that I have a lot of faith in Sexson, but he's not used to playing every 4th day. I don't think he will ever be a good PHer either.

Ouch. Pettitte's up in the zone. Not good.

2008-08-05 17:41:32
47.   Jeb
43 yeah and B'ham's got fantastic restaurants including several Thai, Indian and Vietnamese places if he's not into BBQ.
2008-08-05 17:42:40
48.   cult of basebaal
45 doom, doom, doom ... doomey, doomey, doom!
2008-08-05 17:42:43
49.   randym77
Wow. I can't believe how few comments there are, given the...excitement on the field.
2008-08-05 17:44:20
50.   Jeb
49 Andy's really throwing a gem tonight. Surely we'll make the post-season now.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-05 17:44:20
51.   Sliced Bread
Andy could still hang in there tonight -- but I think it's now fair to say his recent struggles likely have little to do with Ivan, if anything.
2008-08-05 17:45:58
52.   OldYanksFan
Who's Ivan?
2008-08-05 17:46:43
53.   3rd gen yankee fan
49 Well, I'd like to have something good to say... how about, I really enjoyed watching the Royals beat the Sux last night! Ninth inning drama was great and I certainly thought the Yankees would win by the time I got home.
2008-08-05 17:47:44
54.   Sliced Bread
Let the record show that Molina and Sexson made solid contact tonight.
2008-08-05 17:48:45
55.   Max
45 I'm not ready to write off a playoff run even with Joba out (yes, I'm cockeyed that way)...but it's fair to say there's no margin for error. Any regression by Andy or Moose this month and we're playing spoiler in September.

Of course, it doesn't exactly help to be running out crappy lineups like the one we have today.

2008-08-05 17:48:55
56.   Sliced Bread
Who's Melky?
2008-08-05 17:50:56
57.   cult of basebaal
54 sometimes it's better to be lucky than good, see JC's at bat ...

nice to see JC shaken up on that steal ... not like everything's not going wrong already

2008-08-05 17:51:50
58.   cult of basebaal
2008-08-05 17:51:52
59.   Eirias
Let's grind out a ticky-tacky run here.
2008-08-05 17:52:04
60.   Jeb
I will say this. Andy looks like Poop tonight, Joba's probably out for the year, Hughes and IPK haven't contributed a damn thing and our offense is stale. But, as I've said on more than one occasion, if we have a total failure year there's still some positives to look at:

1. Joba/Hughes/IPK will be a year older in 2009 and maybe 2 of 3 of them will be contributors then. Maybe they can stay healthy --- kids get hurt, just ask Leiter and Josh Beckett.

2. If we don't make the playoffs, maybe Hank will say, "fuck it", roll up his sleeves, and go get CC and Tex. Maybe we're experiencing Boston's 2006 and will have a glorious rise from the ashes next season.

3. With every hit Jeter is closer to 3,000; with every homer Arod is closer to 763. In the lean 1980's we had to learn to enjoy individual seasons.

4. And in the same vein, if Moose wins 20 games this season (he only needs 6), he'll be up to 270 for a career, will likely return in 2009 and has a damn good shot at getting to 300 wins.

5. And finally, we have other kids like Melancon ready to contribute next year (maybe even Ajax) and thankfully we DIDN'T pick up Washburn. If we're not going to win anyway, who wants Seattle's garbage.

2008-08-05 17:52:31
61.   dianagramr
just how many steps slower is Jeter nowadays ,.,,,,
2008-08-05 17:53:15
62.   Sliced Bread
shit, cap.
2008-08-05 17:53:29
63.   cult of basebaal
fuck you jeter, fuck you girardi ... HOW MANY GODDAMN DOUBLE PLAYS DOES HE HAVE TO HIT INTO?!?!?!?
2008-08-05 17:54:56
64.   cult of basebaal
60 i'd say nearly making the playoffs this year (if that's where we end up) with the string of serious, major injuries is far, Far, FAR from "total failure".

i'd say it's pretty damn remarkable.

2008-08-05 17:58:45
65.   Max
Fastball. Fastball. Cutter. Three pitch out. That's more like it, Andy.
2008-08-05 17:59:25
66.   williamnyy23
The way the Yankees have played and continue to play had be looking forward to 2009. The pending doom about Joba has now even cast a pall over that year too.

I guess the bright side is I am not fermenting with frustration over the fact that the Yankees are being shut down by a raw rookie and that the evidence of Jeter being on the downside continues to mount.

2008-08-05 17:59:45
67.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
49 some excitement for you
2008-08-05 18:00:44
68.   Jeb
64 Yeah, but I am referring to "total failure" as anything less than winning the world series or at least the pennant.

AND I understand that different people measure the success of the team in different ways. For me, success is winning a world series. That's not to say that I despise every season where we haven't won.

I still look back fondly on Donnie Baseball hitting .343 in 1984 and on Murcer driving in all 5 runs against the Orioles 29 years ago tomorrow.

But this season feels a bit "lost" to me.

2008-08-05 18:00:46
69.   Eirias
63 I know! Girardi definitely wasn't running hard enough towards third.
2008-08-05 18:01:26
70.   Sliced Bread
yo, Bob-ay! Give that man another parking pass! (and make it short term).
2008-08-05 18:05:17
71.   Eirias
Another double-play? GIRARDI!
2008-08-05 18:06:28
72.   Jeb
Ranger's Announcer: "If you get a double play every inning you gotta SHOT!!!"


I'd like to fucking smack that bastard..and yes...these grapes taste sour.

2008-08-05 18:07:36
73.   Sliced Bread
72 was Tex describing a drinking game?
2008-08-05 18:07:47
74.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
i can't take any more double plays...
2008-08-05 18:07:55
75.   Max
Three straight innings ended by a DP. Wow.
2008-08-05 18:08:13
76.   Sliced Bread
72 oh, it was a suggestion. I'm in.
2008-08-05 18:08:32
77.   cult of basebaal
71 well, considering that joey joe joe jr had the runner in motion on that play, i'd say that one was on alex, pulling yet another low, outside sinker
2008-08-05 18:09:16
78.   Max
75 Oops, spaced out there. The whole game feels like such a lost cause that I'm hallucinating an inning-ending DP every few minutes at this point.
2008-08-05 18:10:00
79.   Sliced Bread
77 and by "low outside sinker" you mean Madonna, am I right? {ba-dum-bum}
2008-08-05 18:11:25
80.   3rd gen yankee fan
73 Painless way to end our season... sounds good to me!
2008-08-05 18:12:15
81.   nick
damn Andy can't even keep the double play in order....
2008-08-05 18:17:49
82.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
79 Schwinnnnggg!!
2008-08-05 18:18:02
83.   Jeb
ok so actually Kyle fucked us again. If Kyle was still on the team:

1. The Rays lose to Detroit on Sunday; and

2. I-Rod doesn't cause Joba to hurt his shoulder diving out of the way (b/c he wouldn't be on the team).


2008-08-05 18:23:31
84.   Jeb
Does anyone know what centerfielders are free agents next season?
2008-08-05 18:25:42
85.   Shaun P
'Bout time somebody made this URLP work. Molina has been pretty good in his career vs LHP, so that may be why he's starting tonight as much as anything else.

Now, if Christian will do the same, I'll start to feel a little better, even if he makes an out.

2008-08-05 18:26:13
86.   cult of basebaal
84 not much ... i think i'd rather take a run at trying to pry david dejesus loose from KC, though i'm not sure of how he rates out there defensively.
2008-08-05 18:26:50
87.   Sliced Bread
Hey, it's not all zeroes. We got 3 hits and an error. [insert killer banjo solo]
2008-08-05 18:28:10
88.   Shaun P
84 No, but if the Yanks were really disparate, I bet the Dodgers would be happy to be rid of Andruw Jones for peanuts, if the Yanks would pick up his salary. Low risk, big reward - though I personally think Andruw might be toast.

I'm sure the Dodgers would like to be rid of Pierre too, but AFAIC, he's not a CF.

2008-08-05 18:29:33
89.   Sliced Bread
Let's try Jeter in center next year. Why not?
2008-08-05 18:30:05
90.   Shaun P
OK I'm out, but one last thing - I think smooth lips Giambi ought to pinch hit for Sexson. This whole "he hits lefties thing" just isn't working tonight.

Here's to a comeback - many of the great ones over the years have been against Texas!

2008-08-05 18:30:05
91.   Shaun P
OK I'm out, but one last thing - I think smooth lips Giambi ought to pinch hit for Sexson. This whole "he hits lefties thing" just isn't working tonight.

Here's to a comeback - many of the great ones over the years have been against Texas!

2008-08-05 18:32:21
92.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
87 I'll buy THAT for a dollar, Sliced Bread!
2008-08-05 18:33:40
93.   cult of basebaal
88 hell no to either. jones is all sorts of toast, just wander over to dodger thoughts any game in which he starts and check out what they think about him ... and juan pierre is a worse choice than melky (even before you factor in defense OR his insanely awful contract)
2008-08-05 18:35:42
94.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
93 has anyone ever fallen faster than A.Jones? he was on the HOF path just two years ago! (excepting people like Strawberry who got into drugs, etc..)
2008-08-05 18:37:39
95.   monkeypants
89 Okey-dokey, let's see. The likely difficulty of switching positions at age 35 (and moving to the OF at a time when his legs look to be slowing down). The fact that more offense is expected out of CF than SS, so if Jeter's bat is really in decline phase, he will probably help the team less, relatively, in the OF. Moving Jeter to CF only creates another hole at SS: Who will play SS? Who will play SS and continue to hit above average for the position?

Otherwise, it sounds like a great plan.

2008-08-05 18:38:39
96.   Jeb
What really sucks about Hughes/IPK and Joba is that none of them is remotely close to their innings limits for this season.

Joba had 116 last year and should've gone to 146 in 2008, but he's at 89 and likely done.

IPK had 165 last year between NYC and the minors and should've gone to 195 in 2008, but is only at 83 so far.

Hughes had 114 last year (including PS) and should've gone to 144, but he's only pitched a lousy 28 innings this season.

My point is that we are looking at 2-3 more years before these three pitchers are ready to pitch 200 innings and only if we're lucky. Wang can probably come back and do that, and maybe either Andy or Moose. But it's pretty obvious to me that we need 7 good starters for next season. So we either got get CC, Sheets or BOTH.

2008-08-05 18:40:24
97.   cult of basebaal
94 it's pretty stunning ... here are his splits for the 365 days:


that's just ... well, bad beyond the power of words to describe.

2008-08-05 18:42:57
98.   OldYanksFan
Wow. No DP!
2008-08-05 18:43:54
99.   monkeypants
96 Interesting point. I wonder how the innings limits work for injury seasons. After a certain age, I thought, innings limits are less important. I wonder if their innings totals will be increased anyway, since they are a year older, despite not reaching their limits this season.
2008-08-05 18:46:00
100.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
97 were there any rumors of steroids with him?? always liked watching him play, remember well his HRs in the 96 series..
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-08-05 18:48:00
101.   cult of basebaal
99 it's not just the innings limit, it's the concept of measured increases YoY ... teams like the yankees and the red sox don't want more than a 30 or so innings increase each year, based on the thought that sudden spikes in work load over tax young arms ... joba and phil are still going to be very young next year, i kinda doubt their limits will be increased.
2008-08-05 18:49:53
102.   seattleyank
96 I'm no expert, but there is some difference of opinion on whether the increasing by 30 innings per season rule means the previous season's total or the previous highest seasonal total. If the Yanks go by the latter, then they don't have to have Joba and Hughes on extreme innings caps next year.
2008-08-05 18:49:56
103.   williamnyy23
96 Clever way to dampen the outlook in 2009. At this point, if you promised me a healthy Hughes and Chamberlain in 2010, but it would take another season without the playoffs, I'd sign up. If Joba and/or Phil do not establish themselves as very good starters, this organization could be looking at a long dry spell (and that's without considering Wang's ability to recover from his injury).
2008-08-05 18:50:33
104.   cult of basebaal
101 wow ... these rangers broadcasts sure like to spend time with the dregs of rangers fans
2008-08-05 18:52:37
105.   Max
I'm glad that Andy and Molina work together so well that Marlon Byrd has stolen TWO bases and gone 3 for 3 agsinst us. Unlike Pudge who clearly tends to cross up Andy.
2008-08-05 18:52:52
106.   randym77
94 Maybe Andruw's problem is he got out of drugs.
2008-08-05 18:54:35
107.   monkeypants
94 97 To be fair, though, Jones was never really on a HOF trajectory. he was good, but not truly great. He had only one season of 130+ OPS+ (at age 28), and three other seasons of 120+ OPS+. Compare him to Bernie: seven seasons of 130+ OPS+ (peaking at 160 OPS+).

Jones peaked at age 28, declined at age 29, and then fell off at age 30. His decline has been very steep, though.

2008-08-05 18:55:07
108.   Max
Hugely disappointing effort by Andy tonight. Not what a team gasping for air needs.
2008-08-05 18:56:16
109.   williamnyy23
That was a pretty awful start by Pettitte, coming off a previous start that was just as bad. Andy has been a dissapointment this season.
2008-08-05 18:56:43
110.   Sliced Bread
95 I wasn't serious. Should have inserted a whimsical bassoon solo there. My bad. But thanks for talking me down.
2008-08-05 18:58:16
111.   monkeypants
110 Sorry about that. I guess that makes up for me tripping you up with some or other sarcastic comment the other night!
2008-08-05 18:58:40
112.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Nationals up 1-0 on the Rockies in the 4th...and it's more exciting than this game so far...
2008-08-05 19:01:02
113.   Just fair
I would like to thank Pettitte and the Yankees for taking another Texas sized deuce tonight while taking my old man out for his b-day. I'm glad I have not missed anything exciting. Although I do like a nice, crisply turned double play. Good thing I get to watch the last 3 inningst. : (
Fu@#$%# (annoyance du jour).
2008-08-05 19:02:09
114.   williamnyy23
This season has the potential to go the way 2006 went for Boston.
2008-08-05 19:02:49
115.   monkeypants
109 He shouldn't really be much of a disappointment. His ERA+ since 2003:109, 112, 177, 106, 110, and 100 this season. Looking at those numbers, 2003 was really a fluke. At age 36, with a history of injuries, we really shouldn't have expected much more than what he has done this season. At least he's chewing up innings, on pace for around 200.
2008-08-05 19:04:05
116.   cult of basebaal
113 this team sure knows how to lay turds when they lose ...
2008-08-05 19:04:32
117.   Jeb
That shot of Girardi just now said it all. He looks like a guy whose resigned to having the rug of the season pulled out from under him -- his team has pretty much quit and he knows it.
2008-08-05 19:04:54
118.   thelarmis
110 hey watch it sliced, i just actually used bassoon in a solo section in a Classical piece i composed and orchestrated! ; ) really, i did!

48 hey cult - in Candlemass! : )

this is the beginning of the road trip from hell. i was on stage last nite and the Yanks were on the tv screen due to a rainout elsewhere and i saw Joba get hurt. i about fell off my drum throne in the middle of the song! : ~

2008-08-05 19:05:14
119.   nick
anybody else smelling an epic, epoch-ending meltdown? if Joba's shut down for the year and this bullpen stops being extraordinary, we could easily end up a .500 club...
2008-08-05 19:06:01
120.   williamnyy23
115 I wouldn't dismiss the difference between those numbers and his soon to be below league average numbers this season.
2008-08-05 19:06:51
121.   williamnyy23
117 It sure looks like the Yankees tent folded when Joba pointed to his shoulder. I don't think I can blame them.
2008-08-05 19:08:48
122.   monkeypants
117 121 You guys are killing me tonight.
2008-08-05 19:10:12
123.   Sliced Bread
111 yo, it's all good, mp. Other than our Yanks being fucked but good at this point.

118 hey, good to see you 'round, thelarmis, rock that bassoon! Yeah, we all lost a couple beats watching Joba depart.

2008-08-05 19:10:25
124.   williamnyy23
119 The difficuly of the Yankees schedule combined with the paltry offense was enough to make you think this team was trending back down toward .500. The loss of Joba makes a sudden collapse seem unavoidable.
2008-08-05 19:11:38
125.   Max
I'm just glad Robertson was allowed to keep the deficit at 4 tonight, instead of trying to keep the game tied last night.
2008-08-05 19:13:39
126.   monkeypants
120 Who's dismissing them? I think it's pretty risky to expect much out of a 36 y.o. pitcher with a history of injuries who has been not a whole ton better than average for five or six seasons.

Frankly, Andy is doing about what I expected him to do, give or take. The only pitchers who have greatly disappointed me are Hughes and IPK: I figured they would be at worst league average or a bit worse, but they were far below replacement level. Wang was also a bit of a disappointment before he got hurt.

But Pettitte looks just about right.

2008-08-05 19:16:28
127.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
if Sexson, Molina and Christian are allowed to bat here I am going to sign off and clean my office, will be more rewarding than the inevitable K, weak ground out and pop-up...
2008-08-05 19:17:03
128.   thelarmis
123 thanks, sliced! well, it was orchestrated using MIDI, so i was kinda rocking a fake bassoon! : ~

boston's winning by the score we're losing. of course, they're threatening to add what we're allergic to -- runs...

robbie w/ a 10-pitch AB resulting in a BB. well, color me impressed!

2008-08-05 19:18:03
129.   Eirias
Wow. Bronx Banter needs to be put on some lithium.
2008-08-05 19:18:45
130.   domvjr
I really don't contribute much to the discusssion on this site, but I always enjoyed reading the comments every day, but the pessimism on this site lately is driving me away. You talk about bad baseball, I watched the Yankees fall apart in the mid 60's. That was bad baseball. Alot of you are really spoiled. You knew a bad year was bound to happen. The fact that they are still in the race, with all the crap that has happened to this team, is remarkable.
If they don't make the playoffs this year, so be it. Sometimes shit happens.
2008-08-05 19:19:53
131.   williamnyy23
126 I expected Pettitte to perform in line with his past few seasons. I didn't think he'd be below average, 36 years old or not. Having said that, he is far down the list of those who have underperformed. In fact, with this team, it is a lot easier and quicker to name those who haven't.
2008-08-05 19:20:00
132.   thelarmis
tampa now up 7-3.


2008-08-05 19:21:28
133.   Max
10 pitch at bat by Cano. Miracles do happen.

And a stay of execution for Sexson!

2008-08-05 19:21:51
134.   Jeb
This just in, Boston and Tampa winning bit -- we wouldn't want to stay in this race.
2008-08-05 19:21:51
135.   cult of basebaal
127 HA!
2008-08-05 19:22:20
136.   thelarmis
hmmm. i'm guessing that shot was due more to harrison having thrown 105 pitches, but i'll take it.

did robbie have to hold up or could/should he have scored? i kinda wish he had more speed on the basepaths...

2008-08-05 19:22:21
137.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
130 you are right...will try to look on the bright side

Molina HAS to be lifted here!!! HE HAS TO!!!!

2008-08-05 19:22:53
138.   cult of basebaal
135 however, should joey joe joe jr fail to pinch hit for molina here, i might just join you ...
2008-08-05 19:23:25
139.   williamnyy23
130 Exactly...shit happens, but that doesn't mean you pretend it hasn't. If the dissapointing performances combined with devestating injuries seen this season doesn't make you pessimistic, I don't know what would.

I also don't get the logic that just because the team has been very successful, you shouldn't be dissapointed by a bad season. If that was the case, most people here probably wouldn't waste so much time following the team and posting their pessimistic thoughts.

2008-08-05 19:24:53
140.   thelarmis
boston and tampa both w/ 8 runs (and counting) and big leads.

not nearly as shocking as...holy shit, mike hampton just appeared on my tv screen. had an adventurous 1st at-bat against randy winn, but got an out. that's a lot more than 'The Other White Meat' (Pav) has gotten for us...

2008-08-05 19:25:01
141.   Jeb
130 color me entitled and apathetic to being so.
2008-08-05 19:25:31
142.   monkeypants
138 Girardi made the right move by PH Giambi. Now, will he make the next correct move and keep X-Stache in the game, and pull Sexson for I-Rod?
2008-08-05 19:26:23
143.   Eirias
Alright, I've been criticizing the doomsayers. But, Melky? We're doomed.
2008-08-05 19:26:53
144.   randym77
You gotta be kidding. Pudge is the best we can do for a pinch-runner?
2008-08-05 19:27:01
145.   Travis08
Why would you pinch-run for Giambi down 4? Wouldn't you rather have Giambi bat in the 9th than Sexson?
2008-08-05 19:27:07
146.   thelarmis
leche - not quite the pinch hitter i'm super excited about : ~
2008-08-05 19:27:34
147.   Jeb
139 bingo and well put William....We're having and off-year so just deal is the advice. Well fuck that. With our payroll we don't have off-years. We have a right to be disappointed and to be pissed.

And next March we have a right to be optimistic again.

2008-08-05 19:27:39
148.   cult of basebaal
then again ... pinch hitting hacky in the key at bat of the game is just fucking stoopider than words ... sigh.
2008-08-05 19:27:46
149.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
138 by the way, i only JUST noticed that it's cult of basebAAl and not basebaLL...not that it matters, but...
2008-08-05 19:27:46
150.   Just fair
Way to rip it, Melky.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-08-05 19:27:48
151.   thelarmis
i would get excited if it was a different M. Cabrera at the plate...
2008-08-05 19:28:23
152.   williamnyy23
Why would you not pinch hit pudge! What an awful decision.
2008-08-05 19:28:25
153.   weeping for brunnhilde
I actually feel sorry for Melky.

But I'm still pissed with him.

Also, a catcher named "Pudge," of all things, sent in to pinch run?

Only in America.

2008-08-05 19:28:40
154.   thelarmis
that was awesome! great job, melk! i can't believe i fell for the hype and actually bought a 'got melky?' t-shirt. feh.
2008-08-05 19:28:53
155.   Jeb
fine at bat there by "Mr. Automatic Out"
2008-08-05 19:28:59
156.   monkeypants
139 I think there is a difference between disappointment and pessimism, or for that matter, between reasonable disappointment and the typical depression and/blind rage that appears on threads when this team drops a few games.
2008-08-05 19:29:00
157.   cult of basebaal
another quality at bat brought to you by hacky mcheadfirstslide ... like that wasn't predictable ... oh well, at least we cleared the pitcher's spot.
2008-08-05 19:30:32
158.   randym77
Hey, it could have been worse. At least it wasn't a GIDP.

But why not have Pudge hit? He's better against lefties and righties than Melky.

2008-08-05 19:30:47
159.   yankster
Anyone able to explain why Melky wasn't sent in for Giambi and let Pudge, who is much a better hitter than Melky, bat?
2008-08-05 19:30:54
160.   monkeypants
On the other hand, pinch running I-Rd for Giambi and PH Melky for Christian is pretty much perverse.

Why not PR Melky and PH Betemit for Christian? Or better yet, just let Pudge hit for Christian?

2008-08-05 19:32:01
161.   Jeb
154 got feltchy?
2008-08-05 19:32:15
162.   Eirias
Double play!
2008-08-05 19:32:16
163.   thelarmis
well, at least cap'n crutch can't hit into a DP... : ~
2008-08-05 19:32:21
164.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
aright Captain, take one downtown..smash a dinger...peel back a tater...choke the bishop...CMON!!
2008-08-05 19:32:24
165.   JeremyM
159 160 I'm speechless, I don't get the thought process by Girardi at all.
2008-08-05 19:32:27
166.   Travis08
Why pinch-run for Giambi at all? Pinch-run for Sexson if you have to; down 4, you need all the offense you can get.
2008-08-05 19:32:42
167.   Raf
130 The difference is that this team should and could do better. The teams that you watched in the 60's were pretty bad.
2008-08-05 19:33:05
168.   yankster
Seriously, any clue on the Pudge running plan? IS it an ill-considered psychological ploy to pull Melky out of his slump?
2008-08-05 19:33:23
169.   Sliced Bread
130 fair points, but much of this in-game commenting (mine anyway) is mostly just jazz. We're improvising to the mood of the room... and yeah, sometimes with bassoons.

Hey, we're crawling back into this one!

2008-08-05 19:33:48
170.   williamnyy23
158 That was an obvious call...pinch run Melky and let Pudge hit. As good as he has been with the bullpen, Girardi has been an awful game manager.
2008-08-05 19:33:52
171.   randym77
Come on, this game ain't over yet.
2008-08-05 19:34:38
172.   nick
160 Joe is not sure about the quality of some of his players....and in a way it's hard to blame him....
2008-08-05 19:34:40
173.   weeping for brunnhilde
Aw, that fucking kills.

Well struck, Derek.

Damn it.

2008-08-05 19:34:43
174.   Just fair
On the bright side, that probably would have been a double play. : )
2008-08-05 19:35:21
175.   yankster
Nice. Pitcher can't find the place and the Cap tries for the heroics. really nice
2008-08-05 19:35:22
176.   williamnyy23
That at bat by Jeter is an example of the approach that has killed this team all year. Sure, he hit it hard. But even the best hitter against the worst hitter can expect to make an out half the time. Why...because line drives right at fielders get caught. Instead of taking a pitch against a clearly wild pitcher, Jeter hacks away. That is not how the Yankees used to play.
2008-08-05 19:35:29
177.   Jeb
156 free speech someone recently said, it's Bronx Banter not Bronx colloquy
2008-08-05 19:35:52
178.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
170 truly perplexing decision...
2008-08-05 19:35:54
179.   thelarmis
2008-08-05 19:36:01
180.   nick
this year has been just so fucking DEFLATING...
2008-08-05 19:36:41
181.   randym77
I'd really love to know Girardi's thinking there.
2008-08-05 19:37:08
182.   weeping for brunnhilde
175 Eh, I can't blame him for that. He got a great pitch to hit and hit it on the screws.
2008-08-05 19:37:22
183.   JeremyM
176 I agree. It's getting old, or I guess Jeter is....
2008-08-05 19:38:39
184.   weeping for brunnhilde
176 I don't know, William. If he takes that pitch he's then forced into a defensive posture.

I take your point, but it seems to me that pitch was just too perfect to take.

2008-08-05 19:39:10
185.   OldYanksFan
Has Jeter always had this bad an approach? Why not make the pitcher throw 2 strikes?
2008-08-05 19:39:36
186.   monkeypants
174 175 Nope. You guys missed the real bright side--that AB can be used as more grist for the bury Jeter crowd (see 176 ).

I love it.

2008-08-05 19:40:03
187.   thelarmis
184 yeah, it was definitely a strike, according to the zone on gamecast...
2008-08-05 19:40:26
188.   OldYanksFan
Derek Jeter. Lady Killer. Rally killer.
2008-08-05 19:40:44
189.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
186 it's not fanatsy though..Jeter isn7t having a great year and he doesn't project to age well...
2008-08-05 19:41:12
190.   Just fair
176 I regret to even type this. Following a walk and being ahead 3-1, Jeter knows he's going to get a fastball down the pipe. If not, he takes. But since it's there, take a rip for the love of Pete. This lack of approach stuff just b/c he was unsuccessful doesn't do it for me. Jeter's approach IS and SHOULD BE, here comes a 3-1 fastball I can put my "A" swing on. He lined out. That's baseball.
2008-08-05 19:42:09
191.   monkeypants
185 Oh come on. Yeah, why not take a pitch down the middle of the plate (about which people would complain) instead of trying to crush the ball and drive in a couple of runs. Oh, that's right, because a fielder might catch the line drive, that's why. See, the result (an out) was bad, so the approach must also be bad.

Bad, bad Jeter. Bad Yankees. And Bad Bobby Meacham, too.

This really has been the most entertaining game in a while.

2008-08-05 19:42:22
192.   Jeb
I don't think Jeter made a mistake. I don't care if the count is 3-0. If it's your pitch, it's your pitch. Sometimes you have to be agressive or they'll just pound the strike zone knowing you won't bite.

You don't have a lot of time to swing up there and your body generally has to be trained to react to a pitch you know you can drive. He did that and because of the invisible rules of BABIP he lost that time. Maybe next time it's 2 runs.

2008-08-05 19:43:31
193.   williamnyy23
184 Against a good pitcher, he'd be forced into a defensive position. But he was facing CJ Wilson, who couldn't throw strikes. In that situation, the hitter has to have the confidence that he can handle a 3-2 from a struggling pitcher. Big innings are extended by not making outs, and the best way to do that is to allow a wild pitcher to walk the ballpark.

185 He has had it all season. My fear earlier in the season was that it was a concession to dimishing skill. It seems like that might be the case.

186 Feel free to look on the bright side, but looking at the sun too much has been known to cause blindness.

2008-08-05 19:44:41
194.   Jeb
Another question -- and I might be guessing a bit -- but it seems like we've given up a lot of runs with I-Rod behind the plate. Is it possible that he's not calling the pitches right or something?
2008-08-05 19:46:23
195.   williamnyy23
194 Molina started today. Pudge caught a 1-0 game from Ponson. I don't he's the problem. The Yankees problems extend beyond one man.
2008-08-05 19:46:28
196.   monkeypants
189 Im curious, hat is your evidence that he doesn't "project" to age well?

In any case, I do not contest your point because it is not relevant to my post. We need to look at the bright side of things during this dark season. For some, happiness seems to take the form of bitching about specific. For me, it used to be Miguel Cairo. for others, it's Derek Jeter.

So, weep not at that missed opportunity, because for every Yankees failure someone is made darkly happy.

2008-08-05 19:47:42
197.   weeping for brunnhilde
193 Yeah, no, I get it. I think there's merit to what you say, but honestly, I find it really hard to rebuke a player for swinging at that pitch, especially seeing as how he ripped it.

If he'd taken the pitch and gone to 3-2, he may well have been forced to swing at something not quite in his wheelhouse.

Anyway, I think we understand one another, we just disagree in this case.

2008-08-05 19:48:43
198.   weeping for brunnhilde
Btw, I just tuned in.

What happened with Andy? I saw the first inning only.

2008-08-05 19:48:47
199.   monkeypants
193 Who's looking on the bright side? I was just happy for you and Old Yanks fan.
2008-08-05 19:50:17
200.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
196 i love the Captain, and it's painful to say but I just don't see him being a productive 36-year old many of those can you remember?? and if a Cal Ripken situation plays out it could get ugly...(Ripken gets SUCH a pass for being a selfish malcontent while Manny gets blasted..quite unfair)
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-08-05 19:50:54
201.   weeping for brunnhilde
What is there left to say, really?
2008-08-05 19:51:03
202.   Just fair
Ah, the only thing better than a Grand Slam is a bases clearing double. BOLLOCKS!!!
2008-08-05 19:51:21
203.   williamnyy23
199 Thanks for your concern then...I'd be much happier if the Yankees would play well though because I am not as able to easily shrug off the failures of this season.
2008-08-05 19:51:31
204.   randym77

Okay, this game is really over now. :-P

2008-08-05 19:51:32
205.   cult of basebaal
nice too see BB Bruney from 2006 is back ...
2008-08-05 19:51:51
206.   weeping for brunnhilde
Bollocks, indeed.


2008-08-05 19:52:21
207.   Max
Girardi having a very, very bad couple of days so far. Hope the whole road trip isn't like this.
2008-08-05 19:52:52
208.   OldYanksFan
191 The odds of getting a hit is 30%. What's the odds the pitcher can throw 2 strikes in a row. And on 3-2, Jeter might still get a hittable pitch. Or foul it off, and now the pitcher would need to have thrown 3 strikes in a row.

I think if you do the math, Jeters odds of NOT making an out are higher if he takes that 3-1 pitch.

I'm sick now. G'night all.

2008-08-05 19:53:00
209.   weeping for brunnhilde
202 Hey, we may still get that grand slam yet!
2008-08-05 19:53:05
210.   thelarmis
bollocks, indeed... one of my favorite words.
2008-08-05 19:53:22
211.   williamnyy23
Girardi really seems to be working Bruney hard for someone who just returned from the DL. The wheels are now completely off. Girardi's poor management has definitely played a role in this game.
2008-08-05 19:53:44
212.   Jeb
And there we have a Ranger swinging at a pitch; and what did he do? He drove in a run. So even though I agree with William on a lot of things, I think that when your pitch arrives, you swing or you might not get another decent one to hit.

Night everyone, I'm going to go stare at the setting sun that is our season.

Now 6.5 out of first and 3.5 from the WC

In about a month we'll all wish we were that close!

2008-08-05 19:54:10
213.   thelarmis
well, texass matches tampa & boston w/ the crazy 8's...
2008-08-05 19:54:32
214.   monkeypants
200 That logic is hardly a projection, but I see where you're going. It's hard to answer you, because the comparative data set is so small. Most 36 y.o. catchers do not age well, but then again, most 36 y.o. players do not age well.

On the other hand, far more great players age better because they have farther to fall (though of course this is not always the case).

The real trick is to find the players most like Jeter and see how they aged. So, what other career 850 OPS, 120 OPS+ SS have there been?

2008-08-05 19:56:00
215.   weeping for brunnhilde
208 Actually, I'd venture to guess that the odds of getting a hit vary with pitch location, so if we're going to play this game (and I'm tired of it already), we'd have to factor in Jeter's likelihood of getting a base hit on that particular pitch in that particular location, no? I'd venture to guess it's more than 30%, but whatever.

Anyway, we're all frustrated, granted.

2008-08-05 19:56:27
216.   williamnyy23
212 That ignores the context though. The Rangers were up 5, while the Yankees were down 5. It's great to be aggressive when you are ahead, but when you are behind late in a ball game, you must preserve outs.

Have a good night.

2008-08-05 19:56:58
217.   randym77
I'm still wondering why Melky as a pinch-hitter.
2008-08-05 19:57:23
218.   OldYanksFan
212 They were 3 runs AHEAD. If he makes an out, not a big deal. Derek was up with TWO OUT, BEHIND by 3 runs, with Abreu and ARod up next. You can't compare the situations.
2008-08-05 19:58:52
219.   monkeypants
208 You assume that the odds of getting a hit are the same on all pitches, regardless of count or location. Whatever, we'll have to agree to disagree. I happen to think that hitters should swing at pitches right down the middle, otherwise, they should just stand there and never swing.
2008-08-05 19:59:20
220.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh, and William, btw, if you were to rebuke Derek for that failed check swing, I think you'd have a stronger case. That was going up there hacking.
2008-08-05 20:00:41
221.   williamnyy23
CJ Wilson rubs salt in the wounds by firing five balls to Abreu and then plunking Arod.
2008-08-05 20:01:05
222.   Sliced Bread
take yer base, Snoop.
2008-08-05 20:02:41
223.   williamnyy23
220 You could throw that into the mix too. I guess I gave him the benefit of the doubt on that one. Needless to say, I'd love to have taken the bet that Wilson wouldn't have been able to throw another strike to Jeter, but I guess the approach Jeter took is now what works for him. I wish it worked better for the team.
2008-08-05 20:02:50
224.   Just fair
219 What happens if Jeter takes the 3-1 perfect stirke? Then looks at the perfect backdoor curveball for strike 3. Tip your hat to Jeter for having the right approach for making the pitcher throw a perfect strike?
2008-08-05 20:03:31
225.   thelarmis
do they still boo Alex in Tex-ass?

just read the Jonah Keri MVP snubs article. looks like Alex missed out on a solid 3 or 4 trophies...

c'mon X-Man!

2008-08-05 20:03:55
226.   nick
we'll get the three back, and not win.......ah, I can't take any more either. evening to all....
2008-08-05 20:03:56
227.   Just fair
Whoops. {218] for OYF.
2008-08-05 20:04:24
228.   monkeypants
218 Now be honest with yourself, if not with me. HAd Jeter simply taken a pitch grooved down the middle, would you have quickly dashed off a post commending him on his good approach in that situation, down by three, etc.? And when he proceeded to make an out on tougher pitch later, perhaps a ground ball or even a strike out, would you have continued to defend his good approach at passing up the cookie two or three pitches earlier.

I would have a lot more respect for this position if once--just once--someone typed comments like that. Instead, all we get is after-the-fact bitching about "approach" when the result is not what we want. This tends, just a tad, to undermine the credibility of the position, at least in from my perspective.

2008-08-05 20:05:21
229.   cult of basebaal
damn, i was hoping for some Xcitement there ...
2008-08-05 20:05:48
230.   williamnyy23
224 Are you watching Wilson pitch? I don't think he is capable of throwing a perfect backdoor curveball anywhere near a strike. If Girardi sent the Yankees up with orders not to swing, they'd be parading around the bases. Sometimes, you have to put your approach into the context of the game. CJ Wilson pitching demands that you take two strikes with three balls on the count.
2008-08-05 20:06:19
231.   Just fair
Good Approach there by Cano. : )
2008-08-05 20:06:28
232.   weeping for brunnhilde
Great ab by Cano there.
2008-08-05 20:07:12
233.   JeremyM
Good thing Sexson is still in the game and not that other fellow.
2008-08-05 20:07:26
234.   monkeypants
224 I think we are agreeing with each other?

My point is that if one truly believes that a hitter should pass up on a cookie down the middle on 3-1, then that same person believes essentially that hitters should never swing. I do not share that opinion.

But Jeter made out, so the evidence is on the other side...I guess...

2008-08-05 20:07:35
235.   OldYanksFan
Cano takes a 3-1 pitch for a strike an then walks, That's the proper approach.
2008-08-05 20:07:37
236.   Sliced Bread
Hot Sex he did it!
2008-08-05 20:07:45
237.   thelarmis
a 3 walk day for robbie! wow...
2008-08-05 20:07:49
238.   randym77
Good thing they didn't take Sexson out...
2008-08-05 20:07:49
239.   weeping for brunnhilde

Holy fuck!!!!

I was just about to remark that Sexson is too tall to be able to hit and would you look at that!!!!1


2008-08-05 20:08:40
240.   thelarmis
holy crap! i had a feeling we'd score 6 and then fall short.

coupla more runs, fellas...

2008-08-05 20:08:45
241.   JeremyM
233 Like I said....
2008-08-05 20:09:11
242.   Jeb
maybe we're all right? Cano made the pitcher 3 straight strikes and he couldn't do it....Sexson drove the first pitch in the seats.
2008-08-05 20:09:22
243.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
SIT on it, Richie!!!
2008-08-05 20:09:24
244.   cult of basebaal
230 as howard johnson was once heard to exclaim, "never mind that shit, here comes mongo" ... err, dicklock sexy!
2008-08-05 20:09:38
245.   yankster
217 Yes, again why the Melky pinch?

218 Yes. Given that the pitcher had only thrown 4 strikes but had thrown 13 balls (counting the one Melky swung at) since coming in, with many of the balls being wild, with the Yankees down and with big hitters right behind you. It's really time to work the walk. This is not just any walk, mind you, it's that super precious and rare walk, a RUN SCORING WALK.

I'm not buying the position of the opposition here.

2008-08-05 20:10:13
246.   monkeypants
230 So you really believe that a MLB pitcher, even a bad one, would not be better off facing a lineup ordered not to swing? He is so bad that the Yankees, standing there with bat on shoulder, would simply congo-line around the bases?

Again, you and I will have to agree to disagree on that starting assumption.

2008-08-05 20:10:26
247.   williamnyy23
234 It's probably not worth debating considering we are entrenched in our positions, but I'll clarify mine one more time.

When the pitcher is competent, you use the 3-1 to zone a pitch. When the pitcher has shown that he is pretty much incapable of throwing anything but a fastball down the middle for a strike, you make him throw two in a row, especially when you are trailing by three runs late in the ball game.

Too often, the context of the situation is completely ignored. You can't divroce Jeter's decision from the fact that CJ Wilson was pitching...that component is essential to the equation.

2008-08-05 20:10:26
248.   weeping for brunnhilde
230 Agreed about Wilson's not being able to execute that pitch.
2008-08-05 20:10:42
249.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
242 second guessing and arguing all part of the personally, i enjoy everyone's different takes and passion so keep it up!

down 2 now, we can DO this!

2008-08-05 20:10:49
250.   Just fair
230 A pitching coach demands that a stuggling pitcher throws a meatball on 3-1 with the bases loaded instead of giving up a freebie. B/c as everyone knows, there's no defense vs. a walk. Jeter knows this as well, so he is expecting a great pitch to hit, which he got, but to no avail.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-08-05 20:11:17
251.   thelarmis
it's a final in tampa. soon to be in KC, as well...

c'mon pudge!

2008-08-05 20:11:39
252.   3rd gen yankee fan
Um, wow.
2008-08-05 20:11:43
253.   weeping for brunnhilde
246 I'd love to see such a congo line.

That'd be entertaining.

2008-08-05 20:12:05
254.   Jeb
Let's all remember Ted Williams #1 rule of hitting: Get a good pitch to hit. Cano didn't and Sexson did. I would also argue that Jeter did too.
2008-08-05 20:12:37
255.   cult of basebaal
230 did i miss the part where wilson came in last inning? since he has the K of nady this inning, and a total of .1 innings pitched in gameday, i believe that was josh rupe.
2008-08-05 20:13:10
256.   williamnyy23
246 You seem to be creating an exaggerated argument to make your position more defensible. Why do the Yankees have to stand there with their bats on their shoulders? Besides, in this past inning, the Yankees were practically doing just that...and guess what? CJ Wilson couldn't throw strikes.
2008-08-05 20:13:27
257.   monkeypants
So Sexson homered on an 0-1 pitch. Is that a good approach because he drove a ball in his wheel house? Or is it a bad approach because he didn't wait until 2 strikes?
2008-08-05 20:15:15
258.   Just fair
257 I can't believe he went up there with a bat. : )
2008-08-05 20:15:57
259.   Jeb
If Melky walks, we have to win.
2008-08-05 20:16:23
260.   Jeb
oh PLEASE let Melky have a broken foot....PLEASE!!!!! LOL.
2008-08-05 20:16:57
261.   yankster
257 Given that this is a four game series with a team with a weak pen and with the benefits of using the pen accruing to the Yanks, I think the first pitch swing is a mistake. A walk is a run in that position. Grand Slam is nice but wrong.
2008-08-05 20:17:17
262.   williamnyy23
257 Again, you are creating straw men. Earlier, I stated that you take two strikes once you get to 3 balls. I've also stated that you make a pitcher like Wilson throw two fastballs down the middle. Sexson did not swing at a 3-1; it was a 0-1 pitch.

Damn...I thought that one was gone.

2008-08-05 20:17:40
263.   weeping for brunnhilde
249 Hear, hear.

Especially the passion.

I love that we all care so much about this team and about the game.

It makes me happy.

2008-08-05 20:17:49
264.   cult of basebaal
melky would have been smart to just take off running on that last pitch ... with the ball bouncing that far away from the catcher, he was guaranteed to reach 1st ...
2008-08-05 20:18:52
265.   cult of basebaal
josh rupe, derek jeter faced josh rupe.
2008-08-05 20:19:44
266.   monkeypants
256 Am I exaggerating? You had written that if the Yankees had been sent up with "orders not to swing," they would be "parading around the bases" 230 . How is my paraphrase any more of an exaggeration?
2008-08-05 20:23:02
267.   monkeypants
262 Again, is it a straw man? If Sexson swung at that same pitch but made an out, I guarantee someone, maybe you, would post how the approach is wrong, why go up hacking, etc.
2008-08-05 20:23:12
268.   Just fair
Watch out for "The Buckler." It'll get you every time.
There's a supsension. : )
2008-08-05 20:24:00
269.   williamnyy23
266 Yes, you are. Literally, if the Yankees really were ordered to not swing, that doesn't mean you tell the opposing pitcher. Presumably, Rupe and Wilson could throw strikes if they knew the batters wouldn't swing under any circumstances (although maybe not). Your exaggerated point of having the batters stand prone makes a silly assumption.

Figuratively, I think it's pretty easy to see that statement was a hypothetical. I clearly followed it upby saying that when you have 3 balls, you should take two stikes.

2008-08-05 20:24:06
270.   monkeypants
That's one way to keep Hamilton from hitting it out!
2008-08-05 20:25:02
271.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hey, nifty play by Derek with the range to his left!

I thought that was through for sure.

2008-08-05 20:25:04
272.   cult of basebaal
take notes, joba, that's where you throw at people
2008-08-05 20:26:10
273.   monkeypants
269 The image of batters "standing prone" is pretty funny.
2008-08-05 20:26:41
274.   OldYanksFan
266 Cano did NOT swing at 3-1. Who knows, maybe he hits a HR. Are you happy with the result of his AB? His AB is exactly what William and I were talking about for Jeters AB. The question is: what approach has the BEST ODDS of NOT making an out.

How do you feel when WE are in the field, THEY have the bases loaded, and our pitcher is at 3-1? Do you want their batter to swing or force (at least) 2 more strikes?

2008-08-05 20:26:51
275.   williamnyy23
267 Others are free to have that opinion, but the situation is nothing like Jeter's, so that's why it is a strawman.

Instead of making comparisons, I just prefer to say that Jeter facing Rupe with a 3-1 count (after seeing 12 of 17 pitches be balls, including the bad pitches Melky swung at) and the bases loaded should have taken a second strike.

2008-08-05 20:27:29
276.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
273 ok gents, kiss and make up and let's all send psychic vibes to will the team to victory..straight from our mothers basements to the Ballpark @ Arlington (or whataver the name is..)
2008-08-05 20:27:50
277.   Max
Could someone explain why the worst reliever in our pen was brought in to clean up after Robertson last inning? Why couldn't Veras have been brought in? We could be tied or leading except for some weird bullpen management.
2008-08-05 20:28:12
278.   williamnyy23
Let me get this out first...DJ...take a strike.
2008-08-05 20:28:39
279.   weeping for brunnhilde
Here we go!
2008-08-05 20:28:42
280.   Jeb
Eddie Guardardo is a pig. What's Spanish for "Snacks"?
2008-08-05 20:29:01
281.   williamnyy23
277 I mentioned my puzzlement about Bruney, especially after pitching 2 of three days, but this Jeter debate got so enthralling.
2008-08-05 20:30:01
282.   cult of basebaal
277 no, that's pretty conventional bullpen management ... you don't bring in your good relievers when you're down 5-2 ... it's stupid, but there you go ...
2008-08-05 20:30:33
283.   Just fair
Just Win. Why the eff not?
2008-08-05 20:30:36
284.   Jeb
Jeter must agree with William and OYF because never swung there. I hope he steals to stay out of the DP.
2008-08-05 20:31:02
285.   williamnyy23
282 Well, he did bring Veras in down 8-6 with one fewer inning to hit.
2008-08-05 20:31:34
286.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh my God, that was strike three.


2008-08-05 20:32:15
287.   Just fair
There ya go.
2008-08-05 20:32:19
288.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
that looked wayy outside on Gameday...
2008-08-05 20:32:20
289.   williamnyy23
Then again, when the umpire wont call balls, maybe all this mute.
2008-08-05 20:32:40
290.   thelarmis
that looked a little low on gamecast. was it?
2008-08-05 20:32:45
291.   williamnyy23
Arod has to hit a HR.
2008-08-05 20:32:56
292.   weeping for brunnhilde
I'm sorry, Alex should have hit that 1-0 over the fence.
2008-08-05 20:33:05
293.   williamnyy23
290 Low and outside.
2008-08-05 20:33:13
294.   cult of basebaal
286 well, strike 3 was outside, so i guess it balances out ...
2008-08-05 20:33:52
295.   Jeb
291 he has to swing to do that! ;o)
2008-08-05 20:34:16
296.   Just fair
Somewhere Homer Simpson is cackling hysterically.
2008-08-05 20:34:29
297.   pistolpete
Wow, Rangers crowd really into it for being nearly 12 games back.
2008-08-05 20:34:57
298.   Jeb
nice to finally see a Ranger in Pain.
2008-08-05 20:35:09
299.   weeping for brunnhilde
Well, that was fun.
2008-08-05 20:35:29
300.   pistolpete
And the Rangers win the pennant! The Rangers win the pennant!!!

No? Wow, Eddie sure reacted that way.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-08-05 20:35:50
301.   thelarmis
well that sucked. a-rod was just trying to outdo jeter, per usual...
2008-08-05 20:35:56
302.   monkeypants
274 "The question is: what approach has the BEST ODDS of NOT making an out."

Maybe. I think a more nuanced question is: what approach has the highest run expectancy?

But even going with your question, I am still not convinced that a batter stands a better chance of not making an out by taking a called strike 2 on 3-1, than he does by swinging at the most hittable pitch in the sequence.

2008-08-05 20:36:21
303.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
this season's highlight DVD will feature "all your favorite A-Rod and Jeter double plays"...
2008-08-05 20:36:22
304.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
this season's highlight DVD will feature "all your favorite A-Rod and Jeter double plays"...
2008-08-05 20:36:34
305.   3rd gen yankee fan
2008-08-05 20:36:44
306.   williamnyy23
Fitting...maybe it would have been a good idea to have Jeter take that base? Didn't seem like he was being held on.

Well, I think we are in the midst of the beginning of the end. Waiver deals are still in play until August 31. Hopefully Cashman is starting to see if he can pass a few players through.

2008-08-05 20:36:47
307.   Jeb
1. Jeter should have stolen second as soon as he got on base.

2. Arod was safe -- that was a horseshit call.

2008-08-05 20:37:01
308.   cult of basebaal
285 true, but it was the 8th inning and veras is an 8th inning guy, dontcha know?
2008-08-05 20:37:55
309.   weeping for brunnhilde
Why can't Alex pick the team up on his back?

How is it his numbers are so good and yet he never seems to just take charge of things the way Manny does?


2008-08-05 20:38:11
310.   OldYanksFan
308 He looked out.
2008-08-05 20:38:27
311.   williamnyy23
I really hope Girardi doesn't feed the same line of bull about the team battling to the end. The Rangers tried to gift wrap this game, but the Yankees refused to take it.
2008-08-05 20:38:47
312.   pistolpete
306 >> I think we are in the midst of the beginning of the end. >>

Yeah, probably. But thanks for being optimistic this season as long as you could!


2008-08-05 20:40:37
313.   Max
282 But Girardi was supposed to be so much more creative and fluid when it came to pitchers' roles. Someone here had a stat a while back that showed Girardi used his relievers in such a way that the better relievers were given the highest leverage innings/situations. This was supposedly to Girardi's credit.

Well, the situation in the seventh was fairly high leverage, and Girardi chooses someone that's been rushed from an injury, and that's worked the previous day (not to mention the weakest pitcher in the pen), over a rested and better pitcher?

Conventional or not, it just seems odd.

2008-08-05 20:41:28
314.   williamnyy23
312 Ironically, I thought this was a 100-win team, so perhaps I was too optimistic. Sadly, it didn't take long for me to realize how wrong I was...I guess it makes me feel better to keep admitting it.

Here's to hoping that the news on Joba doesn't make the performance of this team seem like the bright side.

2008-08-05 20:41:29
315.   cult of basebaal
well, that was pretty much an equal opportunity shit sandwich made by pretty much every part of the team ...
2008-08-05 20:41:36
316.   weeping for brunnhilde
311 What would you have him say?
2008-08-05 20:42:36
317.   williamnyy23
313 It wont happen, but I am very open to considering a managerial change along with all the other changes that will be necessary this season.
2008-08-05 20:42:43
318.   monkeypants
274 "How do you feel when WE are in the field, THEY have the bases loaded, and our pitcher is at 3-1? Do you want their batter to swing or force (at least) 2 more strikes? "

I feel very, very lucky if our pitcher grooves one and their batter stands there looking at it.

I was at the game on Saturday, I was far more concerned that Edwar would give up a grand slam or a double to Texeira than I was afraid that he would walk him.

2008-08-05 20:43:37
319.   cult of basebaal
316 man, what was i thinking hitting melky instead of pudge in that critical situation, my bad, sorry!
2008-08-05 20:43:54
320.   williamnyy23
316 That the team played poorly and will have to play a lot better if they expect to remain in the race. I guess I'd like him to tell the truth.
2008-08-05 20:45:23
321.   Chyll Will
309 Seen that complaint a million times, right Pistol? >;)
2008-08-05 20:45:52
322.   pistolpete
317 I'm going to close this window now, and pretend I didn't read that.

Night all, tomorrow's a new day.

2008-08-05 20:46:04
323.   cult of basebaal
306 who would you hope would pass through?
2008-08-05 20:47:35
324.   monkeypants
313 Overall, I have been pretty pleased with Girardi's handling of the pitching staff, including some tendencies that have backfired on occasion (like the greater willingness to let a pitcher try to work through a tough inning).

That said, I do agree with William that his handling of position players/lineup has been mystifying. This was masked when the bench was s short and he had no moves to make. But now that he has a few toys to pay with, he makes you scratch your head.

2008-08-05 20:59:16
325.   williamnyy23
323 Abreu, Pudge, Giambi...anyone would could net a prospect better than the draft picks you'd get for letting them walk.
2008-08-05 20:59:31
326.   Max
324 But he didn't let Robertson work through the inning (rightly so)...first and third with two out, he finally removed him after 40 pitches or so. Why Bruney in that situation? Weren't both Edwar and Veras available (or did I miss the news that Edwar is serving out his suspension?).

I agree that the position player handling has been really head-scratching.

2008-08-05 21:13:25
327.   cult of basebaal
325 i think the return on them would be less than what we'd get after the season (the three you mentioned are all very likely type A, which would mean a likely* 2 free agents per), with the return on rent a players that we've seen this year, my gut feeling is that the yankees would be better off keeping them and going the arbitration route ... that isn't to say that cashman shouldn't try and pass them and see what other teams might be willing to give us in return

* signing team protected status notwithstanding

2008-08-05 21:14:04
328.   monkeypants
326 Robertson had already thrown 40 pitches and 1.1 innings, so he was near the end of the line. Bruney only threw 20 pitches yesterday, and was only called on for one out today, so I don't think using him tonight was riding him too hard.

That said, I don't know why he held Edwar out.

2008-08-05 21:17:43
329.   monkeypants
327 Agreed. plus those guys make big $$$, which limits who might pick them up (though at this point in the seasons that is lesser concern). I agree with your and William's basic idea: at this point a whole lot of the team, especially those who are gone at the end of the year anyway, should be dangled on waivers.
2008-08-05 21:26:49
330.   cult of basebaal
it might be melancon time soon ... from chad jenning's post-game wrap up:

Mark Melancon, of course, was outstanding. That should be the last time Dave Miley and Rafael Chaves are forced to bring Melancon in to start an inning, and it will be interesting to see how he handles entering a game with runners on base. But immediately after an infield single tonight, Melancon quickly got a 6-4-3 double play. He then struck out the side in the ninth, ending it with a big, bending curveball. The guy covering for Pawtucket said the PawSox players were talking about Melancon in the clubhouse after the game.

2008-08-05 21:34:12
331.   monkeypants
330 Can suspensions be served retroactively? Edwar has already sat out two games if he can count tonight and last night toward his suspension.

In any case, they could call up Melancon (or whoever) and option someone else--or DFA someone. He could help cover some innings while they ride out Joba's injury and/or Edwar's suspension.

I think that Joba is going on the DL; that's no secret. But IPK will get the call, so another player will have to moved for there to be room for Melancon.

2008-08-05 21:34:35
332.   randym77
From Pete Abe:

"For the first time this season, you got the sense in the clubhouse that the Yankees realize they're in trouble."

Only now they're realizing it??!!

Pete doesn't understand the Melky-Pudge thing, either.

2008-08-05 21:40:03
333.   Bruce Markusen
Brian Cashman goes out and gets Nady and Marte, the Yankees win the next game against the Red Sox, but lose the finale, and then lose two of three to awful Baltimore.

Then Cashman goes out and gets I-Rod, and the Yankees respond by losing the first two to the Angels, and now the first two to the Rangers.

Not exactly the way to respond to the GM busting his backside to improve the team.

I've been on Cashman's case all year, but over the last two weeks, he's done a good job. The players haven't. This is all on them right now.

Can the whole team be sent to a clutch-hitting clinic? They are mind-boggingly bad with men on base. Four double plays to end innings in tonight's debacle, which pretty much canceled out the eight walks they drew. Maybe they should do what the Twins do and actually replicate game situations with men on base during batting practice.

2008-08-05 21:40:28
334.   Max
328 I probably didn't express myself concern was not that Bruney was being ridden too hard. It was that he was the worst choice to get the third out in the seventh inning, especially with his history of control problems. As poorly as Andy pitched, that bases clearing double was really the game, in my opinion.
2008-08-05 21:46:40
335.   monkeypants
334 I agree.
2008-08-06 03:33:42
336.   randym77
From LoHud:


Andy Pettitte was so uncomfortable pitching to Pudge Rodriguez in his previous start that he asked Yankees manager Joe Girardi to use Jose Molina in last night's game against the Texas Rangers.

Girardi granted the request and passed the move off as giving Rodriguez a rest in the Texas heat - never mind that he spent 12 seasons with the Rangers and isn't scheduled to catch Mike Mussina tomorrow night.


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