Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Of Course You Know, This Means War
2008-07-30 19:06
by Alex Belth

Has Manny gone too far? The rumor mill is hot with talk about Ramirez tonight, and here is what Manny told ESPN earlier today:

"The Red Sox don't deserve a player like me," Ramirez said. "During my years here, I've seen how they [the Red Sox] have mistreated other great players when they didn't want them to try to turn the fans against them.

"The Red Sox did the same with guys like Nomar Garciaparra and Pedro Martinez, and now they do the same with me. Their goal is to paint me as the bad guy," Ramirez added. "I love Boston fans, but the Red Sox don't deserve me. I'm not talking about money. Mental peace has no price, and I don't have peace here."

..."There are still many hours left before the trading deadline, but I doubt that they will trade me."

The Red Sox pride themselves on not being emotional when it comes to making roster moves. But Manny is really pushing the envelope, he's really putting them on the spot, baiting them, insulting them.

Think their relationship is beyond the point of no return?  This is starting to get ugly.  Ramirez is right about one thing, though--there are an awful lot of Red Sox star players (Fisk, Lynn, Tiant, Vaughn) whose time in Boston ended on a sour note.  It's only fitting that it end badly for Manny in Boston too. 

2008-07-30 19:31:05
1.   Bagel Boy
Say RF and DH next year in the new ballpark opening his old 'hood?
2008-07-30 19:32:20
2.   vockins
If the Bucs/Sox/Marlins trade on BP happens, I'm handing out cigars in the street. That's the better than anything the Yanks could have done, and the Yanks did good this year. So sweet.
2008-07-30 19:50:43
3.   RIYank
2 Explain. What's so great about it?
2008-07-30 20:00:26
4.   Chyll Will
2 And show your work on the scrap paper provided...
2008-07-30 20:06:03
5.   cult of basebaal
latest from the Mill over at BP:

The Commissioner's Office has been informed of a deal involving the Pirates, Red Sox, and Marlins. The Commissioner has to sign off on any deal involving cash considerations of more than a million dollars, and there was clearly going to be cash involved in any deal involving these teams. There's also some formality about Manny Ramirez waiving his 10-and-5 rights, and no-trade clause, and I'll admit not understanding the technicalities.

So here's what Pee Wee Herman would call the "big but": the teams, I am told, have not agreed on the specific prospects to be included in the deal. It's expected that in addition to the principals, the Red Sox would get John Grabow and give up two prospects, while the Marlins would get one prospect and give up two. There's still a lot of haggling but my scribbling notes make it look like the structure of the deal is:

Marlins get Manny Ramirez, one prospect (Red Sox), and cash (likely covering Ramirez's remaining salary)

Pirates get Jeremy Hermida and three prospects (two Marlins, one Red Sox)

Red Sox get Jason Bay and John Grabow

There is still potential for this to fall apart over the prospects, but things appear closer now than ever before.

2008-07-30 20:07:10
6.   Knuckles
I am laughing at the fan in Milwaukee, double fisting Bud Lites, dressed head to toe in John Deere green'n'gold, with a t-shirt that says "Born to Farm"...

Don't see many of them in the Bronx.

2008-07-30 20:15:48
7.   Chyll Will
6 Well, we do have the double fists, dressed head to toe in either red or blue with a t-shirt that screams "Born to Harm"... >;)
2008-07-30 20:22:36
8.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh my God, what a day!!!

Farns, Pudge, and now (maybe) this???

God, I'll dance ten fucking jigs if Manny goes pretty much anywhere but California. Otherwise, it'll be glorious to be rid of him. If I never see him up again in a position to do us serious damage it will be too soon for me.


Go on, Manny, go on!!!

Say more, say more!!

2008-07-30 20:27:17
9.   Chyll Will
8 Three words to sum up today:


Nitey-nite >;)

2008-07-30 20:38:14
10.   williamnyy23
One more factor into the equation: alot of rumors have the Rays getting Bay. So, if the Sox swap Manny for Bay, they take a downgrade this year, while also denying the Rays a player they really need. I think that equation works well for the Yankees.
2008-07-30 20:46:34
11.   cult of basebaal
5 which of course was already old news when i posted it, supposedly the Palm Beach Register is saying this is a done deal, though Gammo is saying nothing will get done until tomorrow:

Marlins get: Manny Ramirez, cash, prospect from Red Sox
Red Sox get: Jason Bay, John Grabow
Pirates get: Ryan Tucker, Jeremy Hermida, one prospect from Red Sox

2008-07-30 20:53:42
12.   cult of basebaal
melancon made his AAA debut tonite ... chad jennings has a nice write up:

Melancon, meanwhile, was outstanding. I can now see why his number of innings seems so high. The guy has to throw two innings to get one inning of work. He threw just 19 pitches, 15 for strikes.

"Honestly, my plan when I go out there is usually three pitches or less (to a batter)," Melancon said. "Let them put the ball in play and use the defense behind me. I know I'm going to get a lot of ground balls and if my location is there, you usually get outs."

i like this guy already. as a side note, i wonder if his efficiency has the yankees thinking about maybe stretching his innings limits a bit ...

2008-07-30 20:54:22
13.   cult of basebaal
12 oops, that wasn't clear ... the last bit of conjecture was mine, not from CJ.
2008-07-30 20:58:41
14.   Eirias
I've got word of a trade coming down the line:

Chad Moeller for The Batman - GM Brian Cashman had orders to spend whatever he needed to spend. The Batman, who's hot right now, made $300 million last weekend. His Yankees contract is said to be at least that.

2008-07-30 21:00:00
15.   weeping for brunnhilde
Not to be a killjoy or anything, but California is 8-2 over their last ten.

The last thing, and I mean the last thing I want to see right now is a hot California club.

I have a sick feeling in my stomach.

When does Pudge suit up?

2008-07-30 21:22:12
16.   Knuckles
Anyone see this, from

The Yankees have been getting calls on Carl Pavano. One unconfirmed rumor has the Mets interested.

Holy ish!

Cash has been turning aluminum into silver this week. If he manages to turn sh-t into plastic I'd be amazed.

Tigers-Tribe game is nuts.

2008-07-30 21:28:26
17.   weeping for brunnhilde
16 Carl who?
2008-07-30 21:37:30
18.   Chyll Will
17 ...zzzZZ Meatcake! ZZZzz...
2008-07-30 21:51:21
19.   Shaun P
15 Pudge suits up tomorrow.

Are Zack and I the only ones who think the Sox trading Manny is bad for the Yanks?

Forget that Manny is "scary", that he kills the Yanks. Look at the numbers. There is not that much difference between the 2 offensively this year.

Manny OPS+: 143 (421 PA)
Bay OPS+: 137 (454 PA)

Manny VORP: 38.1
Bay VORP: 33.5

Manny EqA: .309
Bay EqA: .320

Manny BRAR (Batting Runs Above Replacement): 34
Bay BRAR: 47

And the Sox get Grabow, who could help their crappy bullpen. And they rid themselves of the distraction that is Manny. And instead of having to sign a new LF in free agency, they get a guy under contract for $7.5M next year.

My last point. Here we are, adoring Cashman for his genius, turning Farnsy into Pudge. The Boston front office is pretty smart too. They've won 2 of the last 4 championships. They've built a great farm system. They've built a great team, a legitimate contender. They have a team that could, right now, win it all this year. They don't think trading Manny hurts them; they think its makes them better. Why else would they do it? This isn't Ed Wade or Bill Bavasi we're talking about. Shouldn't this worry us?

2008-07-30 21:57:42
20.   Gagne55
11 Wow. The Pirates are getting absolutely fleeced in that deal.
2008-07-30 22:00:12
21.   pistolpete
>>They don't think trading Manny hurts them; they think its makes them better. Why else would they do it? This isn't Ed Wade or Bill Bavasi we're talking about. Shouldn't this worry us? >>

It makes them better in the sense that Bay will probably try to beat out ground balls to third and NOT make phone calls from inside the Green Monster while the game is going on..

Like others have said, though, NO ONE is scarier to the Yankees rotation than Manny, save for Ortiz. And with Manny gone, Papi better find himself a good shoe store, because he'll be doing an awful lot of walkin' for the rest of the year. :)

2008-07-30 22:02:45
22.   Knuckles
Fine, but some things you need to think about. Manny has 8 years of feasting on AL East pitching. His 3yr (05-07) OPS for various splits are as follows:

vs NYY: 1.282
vs TOR: .895
vs BAL .797
vs TB: 1.004

Averaged, that's .994, with most of the damage against the Yanks, against whom a win/loss will have more of an impact (for us).

Jason Bay's total 3yr OPS is .883, with most of his success coming against Cincy, COL, HOU, and the Nats. Forgive me if I'm not as frightened of him as I am of Manny Ramirez, defense (the Green Monster is a quirky beast) notwithstanding.

2008-07-30 22:06:45
23.   cult of basebaal
[i]They don't think trading Manny hurts them; they think its makes them better[/i]

did you see any of the at bats manny took in the angels series? he's literally jogging down to first base on ground balls.

he's lighting the team up every interview he gets a chance to give.

he's pulling his version of "operation shutdown" and is publicly pissing on their rug ...

2008-07-30 22:08:17
24.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
21 Hear-Hear! That home run off Mussina earlier in the year by of the most predictable of all time, still makes me nervous thinking about it..

Bay a very good player, but Manny on a whole other level

2008-07-30 22:09:30
25.   cult of basebaal
15 i'll be very happy with a split this weekend, but it could be a long 4 games. this angels team is firing on all cylinders in that scrappy gritty way of theirs that always seems to find the weakness in our club ... i'm not looking forward to seeing them get to hit against snacks and razzler.
2008-07-30 22:11:02
26.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
23 and a curry-donut on the house to you Cult of Baseball for dropping one of my all-time favorite sporting references, "Operation Shutdown"! whatever happend to Derek Bell??
2008-07-30 22:15:43
27.   cult of basebaal
26 operation shutdown happened to derek bell ... then unemployment.

operation shutdown only works if you don't suck.

2008-07-30 22:21:31
28.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
27 too funny, we used to threaten Operation Shutdown to any and all situations after he said that..
really is interesting to watch this battle between Manny and the ownership though...
2008-07-30 22:22:22
29.   cult of basebaal
ooh, i read this over at lohud after i posted the conjecture about melancon above:

Name to remember: Mark Melancon. Heard today that he has room on his innings limit. Cashman also spoke about players trying to force their way into the mix. That could well be Melancon.

2008-07-30 22:23:14
30.   Schteeve
19 I don't think the Sox are dealing Manny (if they even do and I wouldn't be shocked if this all falls apart) to upgrade the team in 2008. I frankly don't believe all that "chemistry" mumbo jumbo. I think performance wise Manny and Bay are about a wash.

So this neither scares me, nor do I think it's great for the Yankees.

However I do think that the I-Rod deal is awesome on a lot of levels, but according to Cash, it sorta fell into his lap, so I'm not sure we should be throwing a parade for him. Who WOULDN'T have made the deal? That's not to say I don't think Cash is the best GM for the Yankees, it's just to say that according to him, Dave Dombrowski sorta handed him this one.

2008-07-30 22:42:06
31.   cult of basebaal
30 who wouldn't have made the deal? i dunno, any GM who hadn't deliberately built a bullpen that could easily replace the loss of its 8th inning pitcher.

cashman didn't do the heavy lifting on the trade, true, but it's his planning and perseverance that allowed him to make the deal with very little impact on the strongest part of a contending team.

what's the saying? opportunity favors the prepared?

2008-07-30 23:00:06
32.   Chyll Will
31 "Chance favors the prepared mind." - Louis Pastuer

"It is only after the white background is prepared that any painting is possible." - Confucius

and for the ladies...

"A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." - Sir Winston Churchill


2008-07-30 23:04:30
33.   Eirias
How long do the Sox get Bay for?
2008-07-31 03:01:12
34.   JL25and3
31 , 32 Or the same sentiment from the baseball world:

"Luck is the residue of design." - Branch Rickey (being Branch Rickey)

2008-07-31 03:11:49
35.   JL25and3
19 I think it's clearly a great long-term move by the Sox. Jason Bay >>>two draft picks.

But for this pennant race, I'm glad to see Manny leave the Sox. As others have said - he scares the crap out of me.

2008-07-31 07:45:10
36.   weeping for brunnhilde
19 You can work all the voodoo you want about "statistics," Shaun.

All I know is that, in the eloquent formulation of william, Manny scares the #%$#it out of me.

Like the bogeyman or Grendel's mother.

I'll be pleased to see him go, your voodoo doctoring "day is night and white is black" argument fails to move me.

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