Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Fudge Pudge
2008-07-30 13:31
by Alex Belth

It was a fine afternoon in the Bronx for the home team.  We'll have the re-cap a bit later.  But here's something to chew on...ESPN's Buster Olney reports that the Yankees have traded for Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez.  Whoa.  Lo-Hud says the Tigers get Kyle Farnsworth in exchange. 


Comments (167)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-07-30 13:39:17
1.   ny2ca2dc
Maybe Britton will finally get a shot.

Way to deal from strength Cash, yowza indeed!

2008-07-30 13:40:26
2.   cult of basebaal
man ... irod is like the T2 evolution of jose molina!
2008-07-30 13:40:37
3.   monkeypants
From last thread:

Wow. Wow again. I guess Farnsworth pitched himself into being worth something.
What is Pudge's contract status? Surely this is some sort of salary dump? Can you imaging a Pudge-Posada tag team next season?

Marte replaced Hawkins, so who replaces the Whacker? IPK and Ponson/Rasner to the pen? Melancon? [Edit: Or Britton?]

2008-07-30 13:41:06
4.   williamnyy23
Farnsworth's Yankees career is ironic. For the first seasons he was maddeningly inconsistent and generally below average at time when the Yankees desperately needed him. In fact, many pleaded for the Yankees to either dump him or give him his release. Then, Girardi comes on board and straightens him, but the bullpen as a whole strengthens around him, essentially making him a luxury, which ultimately allows the Yankees to trade for a catcher who is a huge upgrade over what they have!
2008-07-30 13:41:54
5.   williamnyy23
3 Free agent after this season (and likely a Type-A guy, meaning two more draft picks).
2008-07-30 13:42:30
6.   ny2ca2dc
4 Roger that. Good thing they didn't release him last year.

This look like 'fair value' to you MattPat? (just joshing ya good man)

2008-07-30 13:43:15
7.   JL25and3
3 Veras, Marte and Edwar at the top of the bullpen behind Mo. Bruney may be ready soon, so plug in someone until he is. Basically, you're talking about the bottom of the totem pole, so they can take a chance.
2008-07-30 13:45:41
8.   williamnyy23
Kind of funny and sad at the same time, but on the radio broadcast, Sterling and Waldman went on and on about Moeller being a permanent part of the team who would be the back-up if the Yankees made the playoffs. I wonder if his days are now numbered?
2008-07-30 13:46:47
9.   monkeypants
5 That's not bad either. Now I REALLY don't understand why the Tigers did this. To save money (40% of one year's salary)?

They really felt that Kyle Farnswoth (or any late inning guy) is the missing link that will put them over the top, at the expense of a still pretty good hitting catcher?

One other thing--I guess this finally marks the end of the Chad Moeller experience?

2008-07-30 13:46:48
10.   Just fair
So long, Farnsy. I'll miss you and all of your 8th inning rollercoaser rides. : )
2008-07-30 13:48:01
11.   monkeypants
7 I totally forgot about Bruney.

Hey, I'm not arguing or complaining. Just curious to see how the roster shakes out.

I still think they end up with Washburn by tomorrow evening.

2008-07-30 13:48:05
12.   yankster
8 It's been weird seeing Moeller at third today and against Boston. If Girardi knew about the trade, and he thought Moeller were going somewhere, he wouldn't do that, would he?
2008-07-30 13:48:10
13.   Yankee Fan In Boston
i'd like to buy brian cashman a beer.
2008-07-30 13:49:43
14.   Just fair
Farns is pretty choked up. I reallly do feel for the big gallut.
2008-07-30 13:50:06
15.   JL25and3
Pudge was at the absolute bottom of the A free agents last year. Jorge Posada, Victor Martinez and Kenji Johjima were all ahead of him and will move way down. Dioner Navarro, on the other hand, was behind him and will move way up. I'm too lazy to go through all the other names.

Pudge is having about the same year he had two years ago, so the stats they feed into the rankings should look pretty similar. Of course, since the formula is a secret, and since it's comparative, there's no way to know. But it looks likely.

2008-07-30 13:50:07
16.   williamnyy23
7 I guess Bruney gets the first crack, but I'd still go with Britton. You also have Melancon in the pipeline too.

Kyle seems a little dissappointed. I have to say I am somewhat surpised by how emotional he seems. After all the acrimony, you have to give him credit for turning it around this year.

2008-07-30 13:50:36
17.   cult of basebaal
9 i assume the wacker is now their closer ... if he can finish strong, he might just be a type A, like pudge ... throw in a likely 2008 savings of 4 million, and that starts to make sense ...
2008-07-30 13:50:56
18.   monkeypants
12 Two days in a row with Moeller at third, IIRC. If he can actually play there, he as some utility as, well, a utility guy. But there is no way the team keeps him over Molina, and I truly hope they do not insist on carrying three catchers!! : )
2008-07-30 13:51:39
19.   williamnyy23
9 They are desperate for a reliever, and maybe they think Kyle will link up with Zumaya to form a tough duo at the end of the game.
2008-07-30 13:51:53
20.   Yankee Fan In Boston
15 will they offer arbitration? kind of a gamble, but he'll want to play full time someplace...
2008-07-30 13:51:56
21.   OldYanksFan
Wow... jeez... HOLY CRAP!
Well, I guess it's good the Yankees did NOT trade Farns for a bag of balls, which was suggested by about every Banterer here. WOW! What a deal. What an upgrade!

Pudge is currently batting: .295 .338 .417 .755
That's about a .150 pts upgrade, for a great defensive catcher who is currently throwing out 36% of runners. WOW! What a deal. What an upgrade!

OK Banterers. Repeat after me...
I will NEVER question Cashman again...
I will NEVER question Cashman again...
I will NEVER question Cashman again...

2008-07-30 13:53:22
22.   monkeypants
16 et al. I was actually coming around to Farnsworth, in that still scared shitless every time he pitched sort of way. But you just can't argue with this from a baseball perspective,
2008-07-30 13:54:00
23.   williamnyy23
17 I think it'll be tough for Kyle to be a type-A considering his performance and status as a middle reliever, but it is possible I guess.
2008-07-30 13:54:52
24.   pistolpete
Farnsworth looked like he was on the verge of becoming his old self, whew!

::slow clap for Cashman::

2008-07-30 13:54:56
25.   yankster
Here's another awesome part: maybe Marte isn't just a Loogy. Maybe he's the Farnsworth replacement and now all we need is a replacement for Hawkins.
2008-07-30 13:55:11
26.   RIYank
20 I don't think it's a big gamble. He's at the age when he'll want a longer contract. Even if he thinks an arbiter will give him a bundle, the one-year aspect makes arbitration unattractive.
2008-07-30 13:56:18
27.   cult of basebaal
21 speak for yourself ... here's what i've got for the cashman naysayers:

2008-07-30 13:56:26
28.   JL25and3
9 5.5 games out, I guess they want to make a run. Their bullpen has been a problem, especially Todd Jones up top. So I guess they want to make Farnsworth their Closer - which only makes it even weirder.

Brandon Inge becomes the catcher. Their BUC is now one Dane K.A.A. Sardinha, born in Honolulu. Obviously, he's the brother of Bronson Kiheimahanaomauiakeo Sardinha; I can't wait to find out what Dane's three middle names are.

2008-07-30 13:56:37
29.   williamnyy23
22 I was also starting to feel more comfortable, but that's coming off 29 hitless ABs. I am sure he was due to come down to earth, meaning we'd likely be complaining about him before to long.

More irony...the Yankees get Pudge and he represents a downgrade in throwing out runners.

2008-07-30 13:57:09
30.   horace-clarke-era
As others have said, the dynamics of this feel SO strange ... Farns was so bad for so long and finally became genuinely sorted out, even reliable (I know, I'm getting carried away...).

I wonder if the Marte deal had this as a next step all the way? If not Pudge then another catcher for a reliever.

Amazingly, though Pudge is NOT El Pudge any more (power's gone since 'roids are gone and I won't say sorry for that), adding him and Nady for Molina and a LF kidlet gives us ... an 8-deep batting order again, +Leche.

Next year? They need to offer him arbitration to get the picks. No room for Pudge AND a healthy Jorge next year, unless you treat them as the steady DH and C combo. Not SUCH a dismal idea, but ...

Bear in mind:

"Things aren't going to get any easier than that for the Yankees, who begin a four-game series with the Los Angeles Angels on Thursday. Forty-one of their final 55 games are against teams at or above .500."


2008-07-30 13:59:01
31.   JL25and3
21 Sorry, I'll still question The Plan where necessary. But I don't think I've ever criticized the deals he's actually made. Pretty much every time, he's gotten good - or great - value.
2008-07-30 14:00:44
32.   williamnyy23
30 The AL only has 4 teams below .500, so that's kind of a misleading statistic. Still, the Yankees do have a tough schedule, so a big win and another trade doesn't make up for giving away two games to the Orioles.
2008-07-30 14:01:19
33.   JL25and3
My biggest problem with Pudge isn't even his fault. His MVP burned at least two Yankees (along with about six other guys in the league).
2008-07-30 14:08:06
34.   tommyl
Hey, I thought of this two weeks ago, though I never in my wildest dreams assumed Farns on his own would swing this. Bag o' balls indeed! Kudos to Cashman.
2008-07-30 14:12:03
35.   underdog
I just posted this on DodgerThoughts but thought I'd drop by here, too:

think it's a good, no-brainer trade for the Yankees, given, as RIYank mentions, how bad their situation has been since Posada went out. Farnsworth isn't much at all to give up. Old or not, he's an upgrade. The arbitration/draft pick issue is going to be trickier, no slam dunk they get the draft picks (and it's a risk to do it). But regardless, I still think this was a solid move by the Yankees.

That said, as my Dad the Yanks fan just wrote me, "Nice move but I want them to get Washburn. Ponson is a total crapshoot. Hughes may be back soon and then Wang, but after the first three starters they're really still hurting." So, starter anyone? Maybe they should trade for Paul Byrd? We don't want him.

2008-07-30 14:13:14
36.   yankster
Is this a twist? From the times Bats blog:

"While Girardi, who was emotional about losing Farnsworth, would not specifically say Rodriguez will start over Molina, he did say, "Pudge is going to play."

Uh, oh. Did we just get another DH?

2008-07-30 14:13:40
37.   willdthrill
Righty hitting outfielder, check.
Lefty reliever, check.
Defensive and offensive upgrade over Jose Molina, check.
I'm waiting for Cashman to pull a Jake Peavey for IPK straight up before 4PM tomorrow.

Eric Clapton has nothing on Cash-Money. Cashman is god.

2008-07-30 14:15:03
38.   JL25and3
36 He's got to be kidding.
2008-07-30 14:16:17
39.   Shaun P
Having just now learned about this, and without having read any of the comments yet, let me say -

holy crap.

2008-07-30 14:17:36
40.   Knuckles
My only regret here is that we didn't really get to see the Farns let loose in a brawl.

Pudge started out horribly this year but has been hot for 2 full months now (June .877, July .866) if he can keep that up it will be helpful. He has a huge home/road split though, so I hope he gets comfy in Yankee Stadium quick.

Tigers just opened a pretty sizable hole in their team- they must really be worried about the continued health of Rodney and Zumaya.

2008-07-30 14:19:18
41.   JL25and3
Here's one reaction from a Tigers blog:

It sounds like Pudge might not really be able to play every day anymore. But even four days a week of Pudge over Molina would be a huge improvement.

2008-07-30 14:27:09
42.   Shaun P
41 Huge is right. Taking Molina out, and putting Pudge in, adds .60 OBP to the lineup.

Unmentioned side benefit - Pudge is a righty hitter.

2008-07-30 14:29:31
43.   cult of basebaal
37 there's only one Mo on this team and his name is Mo. the demi-Mo line forms to the left ...
2008-07-30 14:31:33
44.   Shaun P
-6.3 VORP (Molina) to 14.6 VORP (Pudge). Tremendous work, Cashman.

Other unmentioned side benefit - RSN is going to be furious, because Varitek has been almost as bad as Molina (-3.1 VORP) and he doesn't throw out anyone.

2008-07-30 14:31:48
45.   cult of basebaal
35 a starter is nice, but not worth overpaying for. your dad is missing a few pieces. it's aceves and IPK who are first in line for a callup to replace ponson/rasner ... then hughes, probably late in august or early september ... wang will very likely not be back.
2008-07-30 14:34:23
46.   yankster
Tigers fans are not happy right now. And Tigers management doesn't seem all that happy either. They must be very very concerned about their closer/setup situation.

Dombrowski apparently said (according to ESPN) something like, "Pudge got what he wanted." I guess the no-trade that Pudge waived was a pretty big factor in the value they were able to get back. Other teams had relievers but he was only going to a couple teams. and with Boston's pen being relatively average I guess that meant us...

The pinstripes aura strikes again!

2008-07-30 14:34:36
47.   randym77
I can't believe this. We get Pudge...for Farnsworth???!

And they've now got Dane Sardinha as their backup catcher? Dane is several years older than Bronson, and has been knocking around the minors forever.

Last I heard, Bronson Sardinha had been knocked down to AA. With the Indians. The Mariners dumped him because he got caught driving drunk in Fresno.

2008-07-30 14:50:37
48.   JL25and3
47 Is there much of anything else to do in Fresno?
2008-07-30 14:53:43
49.   Jeb
Someone fire up the EMPIRE STRIKES BACK music. This is pretty damn huge in my book. I've been reading Kyle hating posts for 3 years (and posted a few myself). I remember sayng a couple of times though that we'd better hope Kyle could pitch in the 8th b/c that was going to be his job. I never dreamed he'd upgrade his status to be worth a damn good replacement for Jorge!

By the way, I think that Bruney's going to replace Kyle on the roster. Melancon, as good as he is, might be nearing his innings limit for the season (I read that somewhere, but can't remember where -- maybe River Ave. Blues).

I am curious who the 8th inning guy is though? Bruney, Edwar or Veras seem the likely candidates.

By the way, I'm up for just buckling and sending Garnder to the Mariners. We need to win and he could help.

2008-07-30 14:55:46
50.   JL25and3
"Tigers president and general manager Dave Dombrowski portrayed three causes for the deal. First off, Rodriguez can be a free agent after this season.

"Secondly, the club believes Brandon Inge is ready to succeed Rodriguez as the No. 1 catcher for the rest of this season. "Brandon Inge is ready to tackle being the everyday catcher. He gives us a quality chance to win on a day-in, day-out basis and this allows us to address the one area of our club that needs to be addressed the most, which is our bullpen, " Dombrowski explained. He also said Inge will be the No. 1 catcher next season.

"Lastly, the Tigers need bullpen help. "Our major focus was our bullpen," said Dombrowski. Todd Jones has been replaced at closer by Fernando Rodney, but neither Rodney nor Joel Zumaya, who were injured much of the year, are as durable right now as the Tigers hope they will be. Rodney has struggled with his control in both of his outings since he replaced Jones at closer.

"He stressed that the deal doesn't in any way represent a retreat from the Tigers' playoff aspirations for this season. He said he believes the trade makes the club stronger now."

OK, Dave. Whatever you say.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-07-30 14:57:44
51.   JL25and3
49 I'm holding out hope that maybe - just maybe - there won't be "an eighth-inning guy." Maybe there will just be Mo and a bunch of other relievers whom Girardi can use as needed.

I'm not counting on it, though.

2008-07-30 14:59:35
52.   cult of basebaal
49 assuming that gardner is going to be enough. all the rumors today have been that the mariners have been asking for "top prospects" for washburn and ibanez ... here's from robothal:

"Stalemated with the Yankees over Washburn, the Mariners are trying to stir interest in other clubs, including the Rockies. Lots of luck when the M's want to purge the remainder of Washburn's $9.85 million salary this season and $10.35 million salary next season and get legitimate players in return."

screw that.

2008-07-30 14:59:45
53.   randym77
48 You can catch a minor league baseball game. It's the home of the Fresno Grizzlies!

Apparently, the Tacoma Rainiers just left Sardinha there. He ended up staying there for three weeks, until Cleveland signed him.

He's an idiot with only himself to blame. He admits the Yankees offered him a great contract, but he turned them down. Then screwed up his chances with the Mariners with that DWI.

But I still feel sorry for him. He probably chose Seattle/Tacoma because they're close to Hawaii. Then he ends up in Buffalo, NY.

Even worse, his whole family came to NY from Hawaii to see a series where his team played his brother Dane's team. The day they arrived, the Bisons told him that he was being sent down to AA. They let him spend one day with his family, then it was off to join the Akron Aeros.

2008-07-30 15:01:44
54.   JL25and3
Hey, now when we write the lineups, we have to specify ARodriguez and IRodriguez.

I keep score of every game I go to, so I like little things like that.

2008-07-30 15:02:56
55.   horace-clarke-era
Have Pudge in roto and so have been following him. About 6 weeks ago it was decided he'd not play back-to-back games, that he was getting worn down by it. He got better almost right away at the plate. I will guess he's 5 of 7 games, max, we'll still see Molina a fair bit, a little more than backups for younger guys. Which is as it should be.

37 agreed to the checkmark for Cash, but not (any more) a D upgrade from El Molina.

I'd be surprised if Detroit doesn't deal for a catcher now, someone like Zaun, or one of the Texas trio.

I like this all over the place, it makes the Marte deal (and Bruney/Britton to arrive) fit so well.

2008-07-30 15:06:22
56.   JL25and3
3 , 16 , 49 Melancon's also not on the 40-man roster. That means he almost certainly won't be their first or second choice, and probably not at all.
2008-07-30 15:10:26
57.   nemecizer
I just got the email from the Yankees on this. This totally took me by surprise. I even left work early due to a terrible migraine and was able to watch the end of the game and never saw this coming. There was just no indication.

Holy fucking shit.

2008-07-30 15:13:34
58.   cult of basebaal
down to 2 catchers, moeller is gone (from remarks by cashman and chad jennings)
2008-07-30 15:20:41
59.   JL25and3
I just realized...Pudge is hitting .295 this year, doesn't take walks and doesn't have power. He strikes out a bit too much, but at least keeps it in double digits.

weepingforbrunnhilde will be ecstatic.

2008-07-30 15:26:15
60.   Shaun P
58 I know he has to pass through waivers; my guess is he will and they'll offer a AAA contract.

47 et al - wow, I had no idea B. Sardinha had gone through all that.

51 But what if Girardi plans on "auditioning" an 8th inning guy, and in the process, discovers that playing mix-and-match works damn well?

2008-07-30 15:27:22
61.   ms october
i know i am late to this party but just heard about it on the radio.
i have never been a farnsworth supporter but it does feel a bit weird losing him now.
anyway, nice move cashman.
i am sure molina will still catch moose.
pudge seemed to be splitting some time with inge with the tigers, so i wouldn't be surprised to see some 60/40 splits some weeks.
moeller seems like he would make a good coach at some point.
2008-07-30 15:27:26
62.   Shaun P
I do feel for Farnsworth. He seems like an OK guy, and I think, overall, he did an OK job. Not his fault that he kept getting run out as the "8th inning guy". Good luck to the big lug.
2008-07-30 15:30:36
63.   williamnyy23
56 Aren't the Yankees down to 39 men with the removal of Igawa?

59 His OPS+ is 101 (meaning he has hit better than Jeter). Also relevant, Molinas OPS+ is 58.

2008-07-30 15:33:15
64.   Sliced Bread
see, it really didn't make sense to me when everybody was saying Nady basially replaces Posada, like, mission accomplished, Jorge, go get yer surgery. I questioned what the acquistion of Nady had to do with Posada's need for surgery.

I've been thinking this for days -- Nady replaces Gardner/Christian in left, but we still need a catcher who can hit, preferably a righty hitting catcher.

Then, the radio headline hits me on the way home tonight.

Ah ha! now, this makes perfect sense to me.

Well done, Mr. Cashman, very very very well done.

I've always (ok, mostly) had a softspot in my heart for the man I dubbed Farnswacker, and I'm a little sorry to see him go. I wanted him to prove everybody wrong in the end. I wanted to see him get it done for the Yanks.

Also, as a HUGE Posada fan, (one who was foolishly in denial that he even NEEDED surgery) I've never looked at Pudge as someone I'd want on my team. I've always looked at Posada and said, that's our guy, and to hell with Pudge, and Tek, and the rest of 'em.

But all that said, I'm not going to pretend for a second that this isn't a good move for the Yanks.

Way to go, Cash. Seriously, dude. This could be a very good thing.

2008-07-30 15:33:37
65.   seattleyank
So who takes Moeller's place? Bruney? With Farns gone and Edwar possibly facing a suspension, we need some bullpen help.
2008-07-30 15:33:44
66.   ChrisS
This is the kind of deal I can get behind, give up an inconsistent and expensive middle relief arm for a good hitting catcher that still has solid defense - with no contractual obligation past this year.
2008-07-30 15:33:49
67.   Raf
Just got in from the game. What a pleasant surprise.

As for the 8th inning? Either Bruney or Marte will get the 8th, I suppose. I can't see Britton there, given the way he has been used.

On the radio, I heard chuckles & lumpy talking about Manny going to Philly? Any truth to that?

With Aceves, Kennedy, Hughes, Pavano (stranger things have happened), in the pipeline, is it really necessary that the Yanks pick up Washburn? Or give up what the M's seem to be looking for?

2008-07-30 15:34:48
68.   williamnyy23
62 Great point...Fransworth was really never as bad as we made him out to be, but is use in high leverage situations highlighted his shortcomings. Also, under Girardi, Farns did pitch well, lending credence to the idea that Torre mishandled him. I thought I'd be happy to see him go, but there is a little tinge of saddness because it seems like he really wanted to succeed here. Still, this trade is a very good one for the Yankees because Pudge is a huge upgrade over Molina's offense, and as good as he was pitching, Farnsworth was still one of the weaker members of the pen. Also Pudge will play around 40 games while Farns might throw 20-25 innings.
2008-07-30 15:35:15
69.   ChrisS
65 Bruney, Britton, someone. Hell, Phil Coke can jump up and try out for as a LOOGY.
2008-07-30 15:36:36
70.   williamnyy23
67 I am hoping no one gets the 8th, but rather Girardi will continue to use his bullpen based on matchups and situations. Divorcing the team from the 8th inning guy philosophy is what has made the bullpen a strength.
2008-07-30 15:38:28
71.   ms october
67 the big rumor from espn news and radio is manny to the marlins for hermidia, some pitching prospects
i actually thought the marlins might get in this thing over the weekend but then thougt nah
2008-07-30 15:39:55
72.   monkeypants
70 Yes, but at what cost? They've totally wasted Joba...
2008-07-30 15:42:46
73.   williamnyy23
72 True...Joba is wasting his talent pitching 6+ innings each game.

When you think about it, the "demotion" of Joba to the rotation freed up more innings, which allowed Girardi to use more relievers. Presumably, that was a factor in each member's success, meaning putting Joba in the rotation actually helped the Yankees improve their catching situation.

2008-07-30 15:43:09
74.   Shaun P
63 Going off of the sidebar roster, Moeller is DFA'd, Farnsworth is gone, and I-Rod is in Moeller's place . . . the Yanks have TWO spots on the 40-man that are open. But, to get Bruney back (he's on the 60 day DL), that is one spot. Still, that leaves the Yanks with another opening.

Even if Hughes takes that one when he gets activated and optioned down, there is still lots of play. Wang could be moved to the 60-day DL, so could Duncan.

Or Ponson could be DFA'd and IPK given his spot.

2008-07-30 15:43:25
75.   monkeypants
20 26 I don't see the gamble in either case. The 'worst' case scenario is that Pudge would accept arbitration and play for the Yanks next year. Then you have a pretty formidable duo at C, with Posada getting additional starts at DH.
2008-07-30 15:44:20
76.   Shaun P
Listening to the audio from PeteAbe . . . Cashman's phone went off around 12:05 mark, and it sounded like the "FOX NFL Sunday" theme. Interesting. Anyone else catch that?
2008-07-30 15:44:30
77.   ms october
62 68 70 agreed - farnsworth in high leaverage situations - which basically ocurred in the 8th inning highlighted his weaknesses - but he was that brought in on a multi-year big money deal to be the set-up man for mo - so in addition to needing to get away from the 8th inning guy for the manager's strategical moves - i hope cashman (or whoever made this signing) does not throw big money and multi-years at relief pitchers so capricously
2008-07-30 15:47:03
78.   williamnyy23
77 I think that's a lesson learned. Cash could have bitten on some of the middle relievers this season, but instead rolled the dice on a one-year deal with Hawkins.
2008-07-30 15:47:12
79.   ChrisS
Posada could be moved to the 60 day as well. He's not coming back anytime soon.
2008-07-30 15:48:39
80.   Shaun P
71 I hope that trade rumor doesn't come true. Giving the Sox Hermida, who is 24 and eligible for arbitration for the first time this winter, and pitching prospects, for a two month rental of Manny (how could the Marlins afford his $20M option, their entire payroll this year is almost that much) - that would be just the latest bullshit to come out of the Loria-Henry affair.
2008-07-30 15:50:32
81.   Shaun P
79 I missed that entirely - great point. Lots of room on the roster if need be.

77 78 With all the quality arms still down on the farm, there's no reason for the Yanks to have to spend money on a free agent reliever. Maybe for a long time.

2008-07-30 15:50:35
82.   cult of basebaal
78 well, that's also an example of different circumstances allowing for different approaches. cashman knew he was going to have plenty of quality arms from the high minors to throw at the problem, it might take a few tries to sort out the ohlendorfs from the ramirezes, but he had the luxury of being able to keep trying bodies until the pen was built ...
2008-07-30 15:50:46
83.   Zack
71 That trade makes no sense whatsoever for the Marlins, who would literally double their payroll by adding Manny (okay, only half the 20M, but that's still like half the entire payroll). Unless the Sox were paying the whole contract, I can't see that happening. Plus, Hermida PLUS prospects is a haul for a situation everyone knows the Sox are on the short end of.

But, knowing the way Loria and Henry work together, along with Bud, it wouldn't shock me...

2008-07-30 15:51:08
84.   Zack
80 Bah, beat me to it
2008-07-30 15:52:20
85.   JL25and3
Whether they have room on the 40-man or not, I don't think they'd want to put Melancon on before they have to. I'd expect them to try everything else before starting his option clock.

75 It depends on what Posada's prognosis really is. It's hard to imagine a clubhouse with both Posada and Pudge being a happy one.

2008-07-30 15:52:57
86.   seattleyank
Is Hermida that good? Obviously he hasn't hit his prime yet and Manny is on the decline, but it seems like that trade would definitely downgrade the Sox offense this year at least.
2008-07-30 15:54:22
87.   monkeypants
85 probably right, which is too bad, because there should be a way to split the catching starts 100/60 for those two, and use DH and 1B to get them enough ABs to be happy...for one year.
2008-07-30 15:54:35
88.   JL25and3
;80], 83 Yeah, it's the Red Sox. We'll be lucky if all they can get is Hermidia.
2008-07-30 15:57:17
89.   Raf
It could be that Manny will be flipped somewhere else, like the Marlins did with Piazza. Maybe the Sox are picking up some of his contract (which would explain the prospects they got).

OTOH, the Marlins could afford Manny's salary, they just choose not to pay too much for their players.

2008-07-30 15:59:41
90.   ChrisS
86 I think the Sox can afford the drop in offense. They're still pretty good with the sticks.

The bigger thing is that they'd probably ship a ton of cash to FLA for Manny's salary and depending on how much they pick up, they could get Hermida. And he's actually a decent fielder. Best case scenario: Manny pushes them into the playoffs, FLA doesn't exercise Manny's option, they offer him arbitration, he walks, and they get two picks.

Which is another thing about Pudge, the Yanks have to offer him arbitration to get the picks if he walks. He's making 12 mill a year now, the worst pay cut is like 20%, so the Yankees could be stuck paying him $10 mill or so next year to be Posada's foil.

2008-07-30 15:59:41
91.   cult of basebaal
update from john perrotto over at BP:

Multipe baseball sources say the Red Sox are on the verge of sending disgrunted left fielder Manny Ramirez to the Marlins in a trade for a package of three players that included low Class A Greensboro outfielder Mike Stanton, an 18-year-old who is hitting .275/.351/.569 with 26 home runs in 96 games.

2008-07-30 16:00:39
92.   cult of basebaal
90 no. the 20% rule only pertains to pre-free agent players, yankees can offer whatever they want (though the arbiter still chooses between the team and the player offers.)
2008-07-30 16:05:26
93.   JL25and3
90 The 20% rule doesn't hold for free agents. I doubt he'd get much less than that in arbitration, though, so your point still holds.
2008-07-30 16:10:14
94.   cult of basebaal
93 the point is, if his production for the rest of the year is good enough to be worth somewhere near 10 million a year, he's likely to get a multi-year deal that will allow him to start. it won't average the 10 million over the length of it, but it will be more overall money AND a starting gig ... i think there's very little risk offering pudge arbitration.
2008-07-30 16:13:06
95.   seattleyank
On another note, this trade seems to have finally killed the River Ave. Blues website.
2008-07-30 16:14:33
96.   cult of basebaal
95 huh? i just went there, everything seems fine.
2008-07-30 16:23:19
97.   Zack
Hermida has a chance to become a solid-good player, having a 125 OPS+ season already under his belt, but he can't stay healthy or hit for average at this point.

I really don't understand the Marlin's thinking with this trade. Even if the Sox pay a lot of the salary, it makes such little sense. They should be making these moves in the off season. But, again, there is already the notorious connection between the owners, so nothing shocks me.

Its not really a win-now type of move for the Sox, but if they can come out of it with Hermida, Stanley, and someone else, that is a major haul for the future, and an insane amount for the Marlins to give up for a disgruntled Manny.

2008-07-30 16:24:10
98.   Zack
On the other hand, Gordan Eads, who may have the best Sox insider info, has this to say:
2008-07-30 16:24:47
99.   JL25and3
94 I'm a little less sure. He'll be 37 in November. He's caught more games than anyone except Fisk and Boone, and apparently he can't handle the everyday grind now.

No matter what his production is this year, the odds against his playing two more productive seasons are...huge? astronomical? I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would give him a two-year deal at any kind of money. He's about the worst risk there is.

2008-07-30 16:26:02
100.   RIYank
Can I add:
Even if the team feels the arbiter awarded much too high a price, they can always cut him before spring training. Then they owe him just 30 days of salary. So, the downside of offering arbitration is small.

I also think Pudge would decline arbitration. He'll look for a near-Posada type deal.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-07-30 16:28:58
101.   RIYank
99 Well, here's the thing. Every year we say, "Teams are going to stop paying stupid money for old starts now, because of the fiasco of X this year." And then somebody pays stupid money for, say, Andruw Jones. And we say, "Wow, what a fiasco. That will stop teams from paying stupid money for old players."

But somebody will pay stupid money for I-Rod next year. Or at least, I-Rod will expect them to.

2008-07-30 16:31:42
102.   RIYank
If the Marlins/Sox deal doesn't involve good prospects, then it doesn't sound all that unrealistic to me. Herida is an OPS+ 108 corner outfielder. Sure, he's young, he'll probably boost that. But he's not likely to be a real asset to the Sox, frankly. And the Marlins will be looking to get the draft picks next year, which they might value more than Herida.

If they add top-shelf prospects to the deal, then it seems unrealistic or overly Boston-friendly.

2008-07-30 16:32:33
103.   ChrisS
92 93 I stand corrected then. However, I think offering him arbitration is risky, but that's for another day.

Love the trade, though, like JL25and3, I'm still questioning the plan. Next year's team is going to be awfully old with not much back-up in the minors.

2008-07-30 16:38:50
104.   ChrisS
102 I think Hermida is going to be a very good player and if the Yankees had shipped Tabata and McCutchen and Abreu and ate Abreu's entire salary to FL for Hermida, I probably would have loved the deal.

Boston has deep pockets, like the Yankees, and with a good young, cost-controlled corner OFer, they can dump that $20 million/year that Theo has been trying to get away from on plenty of neat toys.

And, you're right, the Marlins get their draft picks so they can continue their run as an occasionally good, crazy cheap, team.

2008-07-30 16:45:53
105.   Zack
102 104 As part of the rumor, it has the Marlins agreeing to pick up Manny's option. Which of course seems to contradict the very reason Manny wanted to be traded.

But without a doubt it makes the Sox weaker in the short term. On the other hand, there is also a rumor going around of a three way deal with the Pirates getting Hermida and the Sox Bay, which would really hurt...

2008-07-30 16:49:43
106.   RIYank
105 Ooh, if Boston ends up with Jason Bay, that's a very nice play by Theo.
Marlins pick up Manny's option: now that really doesn't make any sense.
2008-07-30 16:53:12
107.   cult of basebaal
105 the way robothal was reporting it, the marlins would only do it if manny would agree not to accept their offer of arbitration, thus guaranteeing they would get the 2 picks with no risk. that sounds right, the other does not.
2008-07-30 16:55:35
108.   RIYank
107 I don't think you can do that. The Players' Union would file a grievance. I mean, I don't think you can make a binding agreement that you will decline the arbitration. Maybe Boras can explain why they would never accept it, that would work.
2008-07-30 16:56:15
109.   Shaun P
105 Manny's option: $20M
Marlins 2008 Payroll: $22M

No f'ing way they pick it up.

Keep in mind too that the season is 2/3rds done, so Manny's already been paid ~$13.4M of his $20M, the Marlins would only be on the hook for rest (~$6.6M). They could afford that pretty easily - shoot they'll get triple that in revenue sharing money alone this winter.

Another perspective - a playoff appearance could be worth between an extra $10M and $20M (IIRC, based some analysis Nate Silver did), and so that would pay for Manny right there.

2008-07-30 17:07:43
110.   rbj
Wow. Well. Hum. Um. Listening to the Toledo ESPN radio station and the Mudhens' broadcasters, one gets the distinct impression that Tiger fans are less than thrilled by the trade. About the only one happy is Dane Sardinha who now goes up to Detroit as Inge's backup, getting big league money, per diem and service time. The ESPN guy (Norm Wamer, pretty decent) has called for drug testing for GMs, and it wasn't aimed at Brian Cashman.

I'm happy with the trade.

2008-07-30 17:09:36
111.   cult of basebaal
108 if a player can waive his no trade clause without compensation, i don't see why a player can voluntarily agree to not accept arbitration, especially when it means a larger overall contract for the player through free agency.
2008-07-30 17:10:01
112.   RIYank
Beckett just had a rough inning.
2008-07-30 17:12:38
113.   cult of basebaal
from will carroll:
I'm hearing that a multi-team deal involving Jason Bay and the Florida Marlins is in the "final stages." This could involve the previously in-place dealings involving Manny Ramirez as reported by our own John Perrotto. Joe Frisaro of thinks that Bay could end up in Boston, Jeremy Hermida in Pittsburgh, and prospects flying every which way. My sources agree, though I will update as details become clearer.
2008-07-30 17:12:59
114.   cult of basebaal
111 can't, obviously ...
2008-07-30 17:13:02
115.   3rd gen yankee fan
2008-07-30 17:13:38
116.   cult of basebaal
113 is reporting the same 3-way rumor ...
2008-07-30 17:13:49
117.   Shaun P
In other news, Boston now done 3-0 to the Angels in the 4th.
2008-07-30 17:14:42
118.   Shaun P
116 Let's hope like heck its just a rumor.
2008-07-30 17:15:35
119.   RIYank
117 = 112 . Approximately.
2008-07-30 17:24:11
120.   cult of basebaal

latroy "the fat lady" hawkins was traded to the houston astros ... no word yet on how many baseballs the yankees received in return ...

2008-07-30 17:26:45
121.   cult of basebaal
120 truly, there is no Mo, but Mo ... and cashman is his messenger!
2008-07-30 17:28:20
122.   cult of basebaal
120 petey has the deets:

In case you missed it, LaTroy Hawkins was traded to the Astros for Single-A infielder Matt Cusick. He was .285/.356/.462 for Lexington and is a former USC player.

2008-07-30 17:28:26
123.   ChrisS
120 Considering there was more than one team interested in him, it might be more than just baseballs.
2008-07-30 17:29:32
124.   bobtaco
118 Are you nuts? You want Manny off the Sox not to happen? Jason Bay scare you? Please.

I can't wait until the Ramirez/Ortiz duo is a memory.

2008-07-30 17:29:38
125.   rbj
120 Wowzers! End of Farnsworth and Hawkins in the same day?!

Now if only something could be done about Igawa. . .

2008-07-30 17:29:50
126.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
woke up to the news about Pudge and Farns...amazing, out of nowhere deal!
2008-07-30 17:30:32
127.   RIYank
121 It makes me nervous when you start praying like that.
2008-07-30 17:32:59
128.   RIYank
I basically agree, bobtaco -- Jason Bay is a good player, but he's not as good as Manny. The thing is, Manny is causing real morale problems, so I was hoping they'd have to take 10 cents on the dollar, so to speak. With Bay they get more like 80 cents.

Did everyone hear Manny's remarks to ESPN Deportes this afternoon? "They don't deserve a player like me." Among other things.

2008-07-30 17:33:45
129.   RIYank
Holy cow. A Monster Seats 2-run homer for Coco.
2008-07-30 17:36:01
130.   bobtaco
128 I don't care. I want him off the team where he can't do any more damage on the field. The guys still hits.

Bay is having a nice season, but remember seeing him at YS last year? He was a disaster. I'd be more nervous if the Sox end up with Hermedia.

I will be dancing in the street if they get Bay.

2008-07-30 17:36:02
131.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
128 he really said that?? i used to like Manny a lot but much money does the guy need?? great to know the Sox won't come close to matching his production in a trade!
2008-07-30 17:36:59
132.   ChrisS
122 Cusick 22, .868 OPS in low A last year, .811 in high A this year. 10th rounder in 07 after his junior year. 40BB:42Ks this year, not a lot of pop, but more than a 1/3 of his hits go for extra bases. Not a bad haul for another middle reliever.
2008-07-30 17:38:43
133.   rbj
131 I liked Manny's goofyness, though his showboating and lack of hustle at times was tiresome. Shoving a 64 y.o. guy who's job is to get you where you need to go so you can make $20 mil per year is over the line.
2008-07-30 17:40:24
134.   RIYank
131 Yeah, he's pissed off. He thinks management has thrown him under the bus.
2008-07-30 17:43:37
135.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
133 134 i am taking an unhealthy amount of pleasrure in watchting the "best run franchise in baseball" (accrding to everyone at ESPN) degenerate into a New England-Bronx Zoo...fights in the dugout, star player dogging it and demanding to be does the Sox mgmt get a pass for leeting all this fester?
2008-07-30 17:47:37
136.   RIYank
135 Well, it turns out, it's largely Joba's fault. A-Rod had a hand in it, too. Somebody has to step in and put a stop to it, according to Ken Rosenthal. It's a disgrace.

But I certainly share your Schadenfreude. Pandemonium in RSN vastly improves my quality of life.

2008-07-30 17:48:53
137.   Zavo
I think getting Cusick for Hawkins might be the more impressive move on Cashman's part.

I remember reading about him on a BA Hot Sheet earlier this year I believe.

2008-07-30 17:49:46
138.   rbj
So for next season, should the Yankees go with a tandem of
Posada C/1B
Pudge 1B/C
Matsui DH
Damon LF
Giambi plying his trade elsewhere?
2008-07-30 17:50:20
139.   RIYank
Oh, sweet. A 4-pitch walk to Torii by Beckett, then G-Anderson wraps a fly ball around the Pesky Pole. The crowd is very quiet.

Is everyone else following this on Gamecast or something?

2008-07-30 17:51:12
140.   Shaun P
124 Manny will be off the Sox, in 2 months. When that happens, the Sox will get nothing, nada, zip, in return. Manny gone, in exchange for Jack Shit.

Or, the Sox could get a guy currently hitting .284/.377/.523 (137 OPS+). Who's 29, and under contract for next year, and could easily be signed to an extension, sitting the Sox up in LF for the next 4-5 years.

(BTW, I'll take this year's stats vs a 3 game small sample size from last year, as being a better indicator of Jason Bay's ability.)

If wanting the Bay trade to be a rumor is nuts, then I'm King Effing Pecan.

2008-07-30 17:52:48
141.   Shaun P
139 And Kendrick singles to CF!

I'm following online now.

2008-07-30 17:53:32
142.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
139 Gamecast ahoy...the morning strangely empty without the Yanks to follow though, have really gotten addicted to morning baseball now..
2008-07-30 17:56:07
143.   Shaun P
Beckett has already given up as many homers this year (in 132 IP), as he did all of last year (in 200.7 IP).

His numbers this year match his career numbers closer than they do '07, which now looks like a peak, or '06, which looks like a valley.

He's still quite good, but its possible that this is the typical Beckett, and last year's unbeatable guy was the outlier.

2008-07-30 17:57:12
144.   Shaun P
Kendrick to 3rd on Varitek error, Mathis (hitting .218) doubles, Kendrick scores!

6-2 Angels, still just 1 out.

2008-07-30 18:01:56
145.   RIYank
140 Not true, Shaun. If they keep Manny, they can pick up his option (okay, they won't), and they get two months of Manny hitting this year, and they get Type A draft compensation.
2008-07-30 18:01:59
146.   Eirias
143 I knew those sacrifices to the Alter of Mo would pay off. Regress. Regress!
2008-07-30 18:04:32
147.   RIYank
Beckett is gone, and Tek throws the ball into CF, Figgins advances to third.

Now Manny makes a nice over-the-shoulder catch, then lobs the ball in as Figgins coasts home. The fans don't seem to be hatin' on Manny at all.

Five runs in this inning.

2008-07-30 18:04:35
148.   JL25and3
111 The difference is that a no-trade clause isn't a monetary consideration in and of itself. It's something that you can use for leverage to get more money, but if you agree to waive it, it's not giving up money you already have a contractual (and collectively bargained) right to.
2008-07-30 18:06:00
149.   Mattpat11
2008-07-30 18:08:02
150.   JL25and3
132 , 137 I assume that any trade with the Astros will be a favorable one, for anyone. I really can't believe that they hired Ed Wade on purpose.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-07-30 18:09:14
151.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
149 has Bush been impeached? did they find him with two co-eds and a vial of coke in his hand?
2008-07-30 18:09:25
152.   RIYank
146 See 43 , strange!

E3 (Youk), and then Coco takes a terrible route to a pop that turns into a double! Defensive disaster for the Sox this inning.

2008-07-30 18:10:10
153.   RIYank
149 I think it's fair to say that we've all been waiting for you.
2008-07-30 18:13:29
154.   3rd gen yankee fan
8-2 Angels. It's a good day!
2008-07-30 18:16:33
155.   RIYank
The Angels' outfield gave the Sox a little lesson that inning.
2008-07-30 18:20:11
156.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
154 indeed, if my beloved Yakult Swallows could just go on a 10-game tear then all would be perfect..
2008-07-30 18:23:44
157.   RIYank
156 Is there a Yakult Yammer blog?
2008-07-30 18:24:08
158.   williamnyy23
All the Manny rumors are flying around so fast, it's very hard to get a handle on them. Even though it would be nice to think that if the Sox don't deal Manny, he'll pack it in and Boston will get nothing, it's just as likely that ManRam will go on a new contract surge and push Boston to another WS.

Hermida is a nice, promising player, but he has also been an injury prone one. Also, the prospects being discussed in that deal are high ceiling, but also very far away. I just can't worry about Boston getting 18-year old Mike Stanton, no matter what his OPS is in A ball.

Bay has been very good 4 of the last 5 seasons, and is a player in his prime. He would be a nice addition, but he is no Manny. Ultimately, I'd rather deal with one year of Bay on Boston in 2009, than have to deal with Manny this season. It might not be the most scientific way to evaluate things, but Manny scares the living $%#@ out of me, and Bay does not.

2008-07-30 18:26:54
159.   williamnyy23
The Hawkins deal probably netted minor league roster filler, but it does appear to have saved the Yankees money. They did send the Astros cash along with Hawkins, but I'd imagine the team did better than simply eating the entire contract.
2008-07-30 18:29:00
160.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
158 "Manny scares the living $%#@ out of me, and Bay does not. " AGREED!

157 There is, but it's a bit hard to follow their versions of Williamnyy23 and Chyll Will in much commentary on the batting styles of Hatakeyama and Kajimoto when the defensive shift comes on..

2008-07-30 18:29:10
161.   RIYank
New thread by Emma.
2008-07-30 20:29:45
162.   weeping for brunnhilde
59 I am, I am, I am!!!!!!

Motherfucker goes the other way!!!

And we're rid of Farnsworth!

A glorious day in Yankeeland!!

Pudge is going to come through for us, mark my words.

Dude can hit!

2008-07-30 20:33:43
163.   weeping for brunnhilde
115 Right here, right here!!!



2008-07-30 20:34:27
164.   weeping for brunnhilde
121 There is no Mo but Mo.
2008-07-30 20:36:36
165.   weeping for brunnhilde
139 Is Torii Hunter on California now, or is Garret Anderson on Minnesota, or are they both on some third team?
2008-07-30 20:37:37
166.   weeping for brunnhilde
143 Maybe, but I still don't want to see him in a Game 7.
2008-07-30 21:55:11
167.   pistolpete
140 >> If wanting the Bay trade to be a rumor is nuts, then I'm King Effing Pecan. >>


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