Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
2008-07-27 07:50
by Alex Belth

Congrats, Big Fella.

2008-07-27 08:12:12
1.   RIYank
Will Bruce M. report on Goose's induction? Bruce on Goose. If Mussina were pitching today, we'd have a Dr. Seuss book.
2008-07-27 08:20:56
2.   JL25and3
I have that picture as my desktop at work. It's exactly how I remember him: arms and legs flying every which way, barely controlled, with a fastball shooting out of the confusion. so much fun to watch.
2008-07-27 08:40:40
3.   Suffering Bruin
As a Dodger fan, it was very easy for me to hate Goose Gossage in the late 70's. Very easy.

A helluva pitcher and a deserving member of the Hall of Fame. Heartiest congratulations, Goose. Enjoy the day.

2008-07-27 10:02:07
4.   horace-clarke-era
I have dear and savvy baseball friends who go apoplectic about the VERY IDEA of a closer in the HoF (especially before Blyleven gets there!). They accept Eck because he started so well for so long, and have graciously allowed Mo as 1st ballot because of the playoff brilliance. I made them blink just a bit with a stat I relayed (alas, forget the exact percentage now) that something like 35-40% of Goose's saves were 7 outs or more.

Think about it. (And someone have the actual number?)

Bravo Goose.

2008-07-27 10:11:28
5.   Travis08
4 52 (16.8%) of Gossage's 310 saves were 7 outs or more. The total by number of outs:

Outs Saves
1 24
2 23
3 70
4 33
5 35
6 73
7 16
8 12
9 16
10 4
11 3
12 1

2008-07-27 10:40:15
6.   RIYank
Washburn is on the mound.
Obviously the Yankees have not traded for him, and aren't very close.
I'm relieved. Sure, if we get him for nothing but cash, that will be fine, but I'll be disappointed if Cashman gives up any player of value to get Jarrod Washburn.
2008-07-27 11:04:23
7.   horace-clarke-era
thanks Travis, memory exagerrated (for a change?) but it is still an amazing stat ... muddled by my overdoing it.

The Wash scenario ... he's shutting out the Jays right now, Pontoon gets shelled tonight ... Cash trades Cano, Melky and 2 minor leaguers for Wash.

I actually have a fair bit of faith in Cashman here. He'll 'accept' Washburn's contract for no players going back. If it is just money I am entirely content to see Wash as a Yankee. There are AL teams that are very shaky vs lefties (and some just KILL them) and it is useful to have one at the back end. If IPK or Phil return, again these are GOOD problems to have this year AND next.

2008-07-27 11:19:37
8.   monkeypants
7 Not too much exaggeration. 73 saves were six outs, so 125 of his saves were two full innings or long, and that equals 40% !!!

Also, he was 4th on the Yankees in innings in 1978 (ahead of two starters), 4th in 1977 for the Pirates, 4th in 1975 for the White Sox. Oh, and he started 29 games in 1976 and threw 224 innings, which led the White Sox staff.

Those nuggets should satisfy your friends.

2008-07-27 11:57:53
9.   monkeypants
6 Even worse, Washburn is pitching a really nice game against the Jays, which will only drive up his trade value right before the deadline.
2008-07-27 12:01:05
10.   Chyll Will
6 Willing to wait on Washburn for cash only, but who gets dumped off the active roster for him? Razzler? Stir Sidney?
2008-07-27 12:07:26
11.   monkeypants
10 I believe that there are only 39 players on the roster, since Kei Igawa was DFA'd and cleared waivers...but maybe I have miscounted.
2008-07-27 12:07:29
12.   RichB
10 Yeah, now that we have Marte, the roster spot is the problem. You'd probably have to send Giese back to SWB.
2008-07-27 12:10:49
13.   monkeypants
10 12 Oops, you meant 25-man roster. Well, a new starter would obviously replace either Rasner or Ponson. Knowing the Yankees, they would keep Ponson and demote Rasner. And then, when the inevitable occurs, release Ponson and recall Rasner or IPK.

If I were running the team, I would simply DFA Ponson. of course, if i were running the team, I never would have signed him to begin with.

2008-07-27 12:45:06
14.   RichB
13 Well, I probably wouldn't have signed him either, but you can't argue with results. They've won all 4 games he's started. That didn't happen with IPK or Hughes. It was a great short-term fix.

Similarly, considering he's pitched well in 3 out of his 4 starts, I wouldn't dump him until we have a real replacement. If you send either Giese or Rasner back to SWB, you can keep them in your back pocket in case Washburn doesn't work out. If you let Ponson go, you don't get him back.

2008-07-27 13:33:49
15.   Gagne55
The Washburn thing seems like something perfect for one of those August waiver-claim ok you can take his contract transactions. Like Loaiza to the dodgers last year.
2008-07-27 13:38:14
16.   RIYank
15 That does seem like the most reasonable transaction. But the rumors have been all over the place.
2008-07-27 13:39:04
17.   RIYank
Alex Cora is playing today, no Lourie. Everyone else is as you'd expect.

Also, significant chance of weather problems; a delay is very possible.

2008-07-27 13:43:24
18.   RichB
15 Except that $14M is a lot of money. I was for the trade when it included dumping Igawa because he was owed $14M as well. But, if you're just taking on $14M in salary it becomes a bigger risk.
2008-07-27 13:43:28
19.   RIYank
Manny on record to ESPN Deportes:

"If they can get a trade, I'd approve it; if they can't trade me"... sorry I got this off the radio and lost the exact quote, but the spirit was that the Sox will just have to decline his option and they'll part ways. I think this was an interview with Enrique Rojas. He was saying he wouldn't use his veto to block a trade.


2008-07-27 13:53:50
20.   ms october
19 espn has it up on their website now

yes weather could definitely be a problem here tonight

2008-07-27 13:54:07
21.   RichB
MLB's Trade Blog is reporting that the Yanks are looking at Gerald Laird from Texas.

Might be worth a shot, depending on what they'd have to give up. We wouldn't miss Moeller on the roster.

2008-07-27 14:00:09
22.   RIYank
21 Huh. They want 'top young pitching prospects'. I don't think they're going to get those, except maybe for small values of 'top'.
2008-07-27 14:00:30
23.   RichB
19 20 Can we get him? He's a bit of a jerk, but I'll take his production any day. He's got a frickin' .941 OPS on the road.
2008-07-27 14:03:17
24.   RichB
22 Yeah, I wouldn't give up a whole lot. Sure, he's hitting well this year, but last year he stunk - .627 OPS in 400 ABs. He's not a great hitter, but he's got a decent arm and he's worth a rental if he can keep up his hot streak for the rest of the season. But, top pitching prospects is not a rental deal.
2008-07-27 14:06:13
25.   RichB
ESPN's Trade Blog is saying that the Yanks are refusing to budge on Washburn:

2008-07-27 14:18:06
26.   nemecizer
20 23 Thinking about Manny, I would be thrilled if the Sox were to get rid of him. I wouldn't necessarily want him, but I do want the Sox not to have him. Breaking up that Ramirez/Ortiz block in the lineup would be great. That's a once in a generation duo.
2008-07-27 14:31:27
27.   RichB
26 Agreed. Except, I'd hate to see him go to, say, the Angels. I'd hate to run into Manny & Vlad in the playoffs.
2008-07-27 14:40:14
28.   RIYank
26 Same here. But there is no way on earth that they would trade him here! Or to the Angels, no way. It would have to be to the NL. The fan base here thinks the Mets want him. (Part of this, I'm embarrassed to say, is that they think all Latinos want to play under Omar, and that Omar wants all Latinos, and if there's an attitude problem that just feeds the stereotype and makes them even more convinced.)

Also, it's just pouring rain here, and the Hub often gets my weather an hour later.

2008-07-27 14:41:10
29.   ms october
25 good to hear.

26 27 yes i would love the sox to get rid of him. i would have to assume that if they trade him it would definitely be to the nl. and i don't think they would risk putting him on waivers again (and if they did and the rays, yanks, angels claimed him they would surely pull him off).
i would be happy with manny or dunn as the dh next year - especially if it looks like matsui's knees are going to continue to cause him problems.

raining in boston now - hopefully that means it will clear out in time for the 8pm start.
sexson at 1b tonight - guess we are never going to see jason against a lefty again this year - though his numbers have dipped a bit of late; but the other side of that is getting him some rest so he lasts all season.

2008-07-27 14:51:55
30.   RichB
28 29 Agreed, Theo is smart and would never trade Manny to the AL.

Here's some thoughts, Manny to...

- St. Louis: would be SCARY: Pujols, Manny, Ankiel, Ludwick, Glaus makes for a sick heart of the order.
- Dodgers: would allow them to finally bench Juan Pierre
- Atlanta: Manny being available could push them to be buyers, but not very likely
- Arizona: would put Eric Byrnes on the bench. Why they gave him $10M, I'll never understand.

2008-07-27 14:56:14
31.   3rd gen yankee fan
30 I'd love to see Torre managing Manny. Can you imagine THAT personality clash? hee hee hee
2008-07-27 15:03:04
32.   RIYank
29 28 Ha ha, beat you by ten seconds!

I think the Dodgers might be interested. It would be really hard to swallow Pierre's salary on the bench, though.

The Sox definitely will not waive him. I don't think they'll trade him either, frankly. I think if they're really fed up, they'll decline the option and offer him arbitration, and get the draft picks. Of course, in that case, the Angels could get him. And so could we!

2008-07-27 15:10:04
33.   ms october
32 ha - you get the weather before me and your comments up faster too :}
i agree - i don't think the red sox will end up trading him either - unless he does something else in the next day or so that causes them to conclude that they cannot deal with him anymore.
if they had to decide today i think they would decline his option - but by the end of the year who knows.
2008-07-27 15:12:50
34.   monkeypants
14 I agree that we can't argue with the results, but cannot agree that Ponson has pitched well just because he's won his starts. He's allowing 1.7 base runners per inning...that's not good, it's extraordinarily lucky.

The team should find an adequate starter and replace Ponson ASAP, and thank their lucky stars that they stole a few wins in the meanwhile. That's a far better plan than waiting for Ponson's inevitable implosion.

2008-07-27 15:13:55
35.   RIYank
Ms. Oct., are you listening to the Manny interview, the ESPN Deportes one? He sounds really fed up. He's said "enough is enough" about ten times. The tone doesn't come through in the ESPN Deportes transcript!
2008-07-27 15:15:23
36.   RIYank
Also, they left this out of the transcript: "They['re] not gonna pull the trigger, they know what they got here." He's calling their bluff.
2008-07-27 15:17:13
37.   Chyll Will
In other news around, I don't expect A.J. to come to the Yanks anytime soon; Dustin McGowan had season-ending surgury, so unless the Jays are packing it in for the season (and when have they been known to do that before August), Burnett's not really a concern. I would in fact think that the M's might make a play for Washburn, if for no other reason than to keep him from the others in the East. Getting him on the waive might be harder for that reason alone.
2008-07-27 15:27:25
38.   monkeypants
36 I'm not sure they're bluffing, or at least this quote doesn't necessarily suggest that he's bluffing any less than they are. Frankly, if the Sox were offered the right package, they would trade Manny in a second. The more interesting question in my mind is whether Manny would really waive his NTC if the Sox actually found a dance partner.
2008-07-27 15:31:25
39.   RichB
36 Very interesting game of chicken there. It's unlikely that Boston could get anything approaching his value back from anyone. And, being only 2 games out of the division lead and in the wild card lead, it would be tough to pull that trigger and hamstring your team this late in the season.

32 Given the above, if Boston gives him arbitration there's a danger - he could actually accept it. An arbiter would likely give him a hefty paycheck and he'd still be monumentally hard to move.

Another quick thought... Atlanta knows they're not getting Teixeira back, so they trade Teixeira to Boston for Manny in a sign-and-trade deal.

2008-07-27 15:31:40
40.   RIYank
38 The quotation suggests to you that he's bluffing? I don't see that. It seems clear to me that he intends to be calling their bluff. You may be right that they aren't bluffing -- I didn't mean to imply that they are, only that Manny is saying that they are.

Would he really waive his 10-5 rights? (It's not technically a NTC.) Who knows. After Boras got to him, there might be all kinds of conditions attached. "If my client is going to give up this valuable right, then of course he will have to get something in return..." Maybe the options get removed, swapped for a binding contract extension, or some other extension has to be negotiated.

2008-07-27 15:34:59
41.   RIYank
39 I don't get the Teixeira deal. Why would the Braves be interested in trading one player they cannot re-sign for another player they cannot re-sign?

I think the Sox would not be too worried about arbitration. Whatever an arbiter awards, it wouldn't be $20M, so arbitration works out better than the option, and furthermore we know Manny believes that he can do better than that on the open market.
Scott Boras, remember? He wants to get teams bidding.

2008-07-27 15:37:28
42.   monkeypants
40 I just don't see Manny accepting a trade to, say, the Mariners or some other baseball outpost. I think that he's pushing them with his rhetoric to force the team to pick up his option precisely because he doesn't want to leave Boston.

In the end, all of this mostly bluster on both sides. I think that the FO would trade him, but realistically they would never get anyone to pick up his contract and return fair value in terms of talent; plus, they are in a race so they won't just salary dump him. On the other side, Manny won't really accept any trade, but then, it won't matter because a trade won't materialize.

2008-07-27 15:44:46
43.   RIYank
42 A couple of things to keep in mind.
First, no baseball boondocks team wants Manny Ramirez in a late July trade. Plainly it has to be a contender. So where might they trade him that would strike him as unacceptable? Maybe the Rockies, but even then, Coors for a couple of months might be pretty attractive!
Second, I think although he likes Boston, he's happy there, he really is fed up with management, including Francona (who he feels hung him out to dry). And Boras is telling him he doesn't want the option picked up, of course.

I agree that the Sox won't trade him, though. They wouldn't need fair value of talent, but they still can't get enough.

2008-07-27 15:54:47
44.   RichB
41 That's why I said a sign-and-trade deal. Of course Atlanta wouldn't do the trade unless they knew they'd keep Manny.

In any case, I don't think Boras would go for a sign-and-trade. You know he's salivating at another shot at the market. Remember, Manny's only 36 and already has 500 home runs.

Arbiters are notoriously generous to the players. He may not get $20M, but it wouldn't be a whole lot lower. Unless it was under $15M, he'd still be hard to move. But, again, your comment about how Boras works is more to the point.

2008-07-27 15:54:48
45.   monkeypants
43 In any case, the tactic of acing miserable in order to get a team to pick up your contract option is a bit strange, no? Unless what he really wants is for the team NOT to pick up his option or offer him arbitration.

He's 36 and his numbers have started to slip, not horribly, but what we would expect from a player his age. He stands a better chance of signing, say, a four year deal with someone after this season than he does after his age 37 season--especially if he gets hurt or his numbers drop off more significantly next season.

2008-07-27 16:01:06
46.   RIYank
45 That's my assessment, too.

My personal judgment is that it's risky. I'd predict that the market for aging outfielders is deflating -- that, for example, the case of Andruw has sent a shock through the buyers, even though that was just a two-year deal. But I'm also realistic about my personal judgment, and I figure when Boras and I disagree, Boras is probably right!

2008-07-27 16:05:26
47.   monkeypants
46 Yeah. With Manny, I figure that he is a nutjob, so any cynical (or even rational) motives I ascribe to his odd behavior are likely mistaken.

At the same time, I figure Boras is one of those evil genius masterminds from the movies, who always has some counter-plan for any contingency ("...but I KNEW that you would discover the clue that I left for you; that was my plan all along, bwahahahah"). So just when I think that he's misplayed his hand, he pulls the old switcharoo and his client ends up on top.

Sort of like A-Rod opting out. Did Boras misplay? or did he get exactly what he wanted?

2008-07-27 16:08:08
48.   ms october
43 riyank- yeah heard the interview - he is definitely fed up and sounds frustrated.
i agree with your take - i think he is upest with ownership, management, and francoa - who was his biggest defender but is not doing so as much anymore.
i don't know if i put much into it, but on friday when he scratched himself from the lineup the espn radio affiliate in boston thinks the timing had something to do with ortiz and coming off the dl and manny having to go back to lf.
i wouldn't be surprised if some of the red sox players that are usually manny confidants are souring on him too and no julian tavarez around either and manny feeling like it is him against all the red sox.

45 i think that is exactly boras's (pu?) thinking - he has a better chance of getting a better deal this year rather than waiting 2 more years

quite a soap opera from afar.

2008-07-27 16:17:32
49.   Just fair
I would like for Manny to go play in the California Penal League. Or Japan maybe. I have been tired of his act forever and would like to not hear from him again until he enters Cooperstown. The phrase that goes hand in hand w/ Manny Ramirez is enough to make my skin crawl.
2008-07-27 22:15:35
50.   Raf
I'm just getting in from Cooperstown. As always had a blast. Seems both Gossage and Williams lost their notes. I have a newfound respect for Kuhn & O'Malley (have been coming around on him for a while).

Nice touch on the Buck O'Neill statue, but it's a bit late for that.

With the renovations to the Hall, it flows better. I really like what they've done with the plave.

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