Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Robbie Cano v. Joe Cuba
2008-07-23 08:32
by Alex Belth



Comments (466)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-07-23 08:42:33
1.   Alex Belth
The Joe Cuba 45 is a little warbly-sounding, still, it reminds me of Amerstam Avenue back in the day. Fits right in up on Dyckman, at least with the old-timers, where Heckle and Jeckle (Cano and Melk) often hang, doing their thing, chasing skirts, being ballplayers, etc.
2008-07-23 08:45:42
2.   tommyl
Not sure which is the game thread, but here is the update on Jorgie, via PeteAbe:


Jorge Posada stepped up with the information. The MRI showed that his labrum is worse and that he has capsule damage. He will need surgery and a six-month rehab. However … he will try rehabbing for the next two weeks and consider trying to return as a DH and first baseman.

Posada said the Yankees are willing to have him play again this season even if it means missing part of next season. But if he comes back this season, he won't catch.

"Catching is out of the question," he said.

It seems curious to me that they would not want Posada ready to start next season, especially given how ineffective he was as a hitter. Obviously the injury has hampered his ability at the plate. But we'll see what happens in a few weeks.

End Quote

So what the hell is he doing trying to rehab? That way we can have another so so hitting DH? Jorgie, please just get the surgery, you can't help this team right now.

2008-07-23 08:48:59
3.   Alex Belth
Game thread still to come...
2008-07-23 08:54:46
4.   OldYanksFan
2 I think it tells us that the Yankees are serious about making the PS this year. Even if we, and Posada, play in October, 6 months out is May 1. So Posada might miss 2 months of 2009 if he has surgery immediately after the PS. If we don't make the PS, hopefully he misses very little of 2009.

Might it also mean that it's very hard for Cashman to find another bat for this year? Any bat can DH and any available bat will be a DH, 1B or OF.

So now, getting 'Harry Honds' also mean getting Posada an extra 2 months of recovery time. I'll bet in 3 weeks, Bonds would be more productive (as a DH) then Posada will be.

2008-07-23 08:56:57
5.   Rob Middletown CT
I sincerely hope that that is misinformation given to the media in order to try to fool other teams into thinking the Yanks don't need a bat as badly as they really do.

If the dealine comes and goes and Posada's surgery is still being delayed, I'm gonna be mighty pissed off.

2008-07-23 08:57:19
6.   Rob Middletown CT
Heh. Deadline... but dealine kinda works.
2008-07-23 08:58:30
7.   tommyl
4 Well, its stupid. He's admitted that the shoulder has bothered him when swinging the bat. He's shown no power at all since coming off the DL. At best, he'd be a popless DH, there's just no point at all. He can't help this year, and we need him for next. Get the surgery.
2008-07-23 09:01:42
8.   Sliced Bread
yo, thanks fer that Joe Cuba joint, Alex.
boppin' in the cuba-cle, as we speak.
2008-07-23 09:02:11
9.   Shaun P
5 I really hope you're right, that's a great point.
2008-07-23 09:02:45
10.   Rob Middletown CT
Seriously... mess with the healthy of your 36-year old all-star catcher you just signed to a 4-year deal so you can (maybe) get some (potentially injury-reduced) plate appearances from him as a DH or 1B (replacing PAs by Giambi, Betemit and/or Sexson?)...

... instead of signing HE WHO SHALL NOT BE SIGNED.

This is nuts.

2008-07-23 09:03:16
11.   RIYank
The timing is perfect for the announcement to be a negotiating (with other teams) move. And a two week delay in surgery will be unimportant. If they delay into September, that would be bad.
2008-07-23 09:04:13
12.   Raf
5 I think a competing GM has more reliable and credible sources than the local media outlets.
2008-07-23 09:05:20
13.   Sliced Bread
it's only two weeks, fellas!
What if Po can swing in two weeks? that's not worth waiting to see?
2008-07-23 09:09:42
14.   ms october
2 4 agreed oyf. i think it is about the rh bat as well. i read somewhere - and i apologize that i forgot where so don't have a link - that it is his lh hitting that is more affected by the injury - so he could still hit rh.
i would love a good young (preferably corner of) rh bat as much as the next person and have been advocating for it all year - but i think girardi and cashman are overdoing it with this rh bat thing. if all posada can do is dh or play 1b - that probably means time taken away from giambi, which is largely a mistake (he does need to get rest every so often) - giambi's splits really aren't that big an issue, but maybe they are just zeroing in on the 235 ave against lhp
rhp: 265/399/541 sOPS+ 144 tOPS+ 101
lhp: 235/398/518 sOPS+ 166 tOPS+ 97
2008-07-23 09:10:59
15.   Shaun P
13 (I'm repeating myself from the other thread, since you already did =)

Posada already took SIX weeks off to rest his shoulder. The result?

.248/.380/.371, 2 HR in 105 AB

and most of that came the first two weeks back, against awful competition (KC, SD, HOU). He's hit .205/.314/.288, 0 HR since 6/20/08.

I just fail to see how two more weeks of rest is going to do anything.

2008-07-23 09:12:48
16.   Rob Middletown CT
12 Yeah, I know. Which is why I hope, but don't believe.

13 My main concern is that Po could make things worse by rehabbing/playing instead of getting the surgery. Plus, I think the upside of the risk is low, because he hasn't really hit since coming back the last time - it seems to be affecting his swing. So you get a meh DH/1B option at the possible cost of more serious injury to your awesome starting catcher.

No deal.

2008-07-23 09:17:32
17.   tommyl
16 Yes, agreed fully (I'm starting to repeat myself via the two threads). That line that 15 posted is a below average DH, actually well below aside from the OBP. In addition, if he does come back you now have Giambi, Posada, Sexson, and to a lesser extent Betemit and Damon all competing for DH and/or 1B time. That's a damn unflexible bench right there.
2008-07-23 09:17:56
18.   Sliced Bread
15 yeah, let's stop ping ponging threads and keep the Po banter here!

16 I agree he shouldn't throw. 1b is a bad idea. Best case, he's a pinch hitter. Let's wait and see if best case is an option is all I'm saying.

2008-07-23 09:19:54
19.   Raf
1 Great side... Makes me want to run out and open a fire hydrant :).
2008-07-23 09:22:24
20.   Shaun P
18 I have abandoned the last thread and moved here full-time!

Posada as pinch hitter, career:

.223/.339/.330, 124 PA

I have no idea when those appearances have come.

Posada as a DH, career:

.205/.320/.337, 197 PA

I am not as hopeful as you, o' Sunny Sliced. Even with the usual caveats (maybe he only DHs when he's hurting? DOH!) these numbers inspire no hope for me.

2008-07-23 09:22:52
21.   tommyl
20 Fine me too:

So we're hoping he can PH and occasionally DH? How many ABs is that for the rest of the season? You wouldn't play him over Giambi or Damon in that spot the way he's hitting. So we're talking a few platoon DH starts and some PH. Without running the numbers I'm willing to bet that adds up to less than a single win over the rest of the season. Now factor in that any delay adds on to any time he might miss next season. It just doesn't add up to me. If they can't find a guy who can PH at that level I'd be shocked.

2008-07-23 09:25:50
22.   Sliced Bread
From the previous thread:

37 . Shaun P
32 Posada as pinch hitter, career:

.223/.339/.330, 124 PA

I have no idea when those appearances have come.

Posada as a DH, career:

.205/.320/.337, 197 PA

I am not as hopeful as you, o' Sunny Sliced.

Good stats, Shaun, but they're from a time when Posada was a starting catcher. Maybe he wasn't successful because he wasn't comfortable in the PH/DH role. In fact, we know he never liked not catching.
Maybe, again BIG IF Posada wants to be a pinch hitter, and his body allows him to do it he'll have more success in the role.

I know it's a longshot, but look at the bottom of the order. If Posada can swing a bat he's not a better option at the plate in a late inning situation?

Let's see. Sparing him the knife right now is not such a terrible thing as I see it.

2008-07-23 09:26:53
23.   Schteeve
5 Don't other GMs have access to ESPN team batting stats?
2008-07-23 09:33:55
24.   Travis08
The lineups:
Span, RF
Casilla, 2B
Redmond, C
Morneau, DH
Young, LF
Lamb, 1B
Harris, 3B
Punto, SS
Gomez, CF
(Perkins, P)

Damon, DH
Jeter, SS
Abreu, RF
Rodriguez, 3B
Sexson, 1B
Cano, 2B
Cabrera, CF
Molina, C
Christian, LF
(Mussina, P)

Giambi, batting .235/.398/.518 against lefties, is benched. Justin Christian makes his first start in two weeks.

On the other side, the Twins continue to bat the catcher 3rd, regardless of who the catcher is.

2008-07-23 09:34:18
25.   Knuckles
23 All but Bavasi.
2008-07-23 09:35:20
26.   Shaun P
22 That's an awful lot of ifs. IF the rest helps, and IF the rest doesn't go too long, and IF he can get used to PH/DH with a very little bit of time left in the season.

My fear is with the others: Posada, by trying to hit, makes the shoulder worse. Which makes the recovery period longer - which maybe knocks him out for all of 2009. Which means 2009 includes the "Jose Molina, full time starter!" show EVERY DAY. Which means that, the earliest Posada could maybe become the quasi-regular catcher again is 2010, at 38. Which will never happen.

The downside of my whiches >>> the upside of your ifs. =)

23 As long as Ed Wade and Jim Bowden are around, there is still hope. Not that either of them has anything of value to deal . . . no way the Astros would give up Berkman, not even for 6 relievers.

Ed Wade loves him some relievers, after all.

I shouldn't knock Ed Wade. After all, he was kind enough to sign Tom Gordon, netting the Yanks the picks that turned into IPK and Joba - and he traded Abreu to the Yanks in exchange for pocket lint. We owe him a great deal of gratitude.

2008-07-23 09:36:31
27.   JL25and3
Wasn't this supposed to be a "transition" year? That sure, you try to win this year, but not at the expense of next year?

It seems to me that that should apply to the veterans as well as the kids. Losing Posada for the first two months of next season seems to me like a very big deal. And considering how low the upside is - a few PH at-bats - I can't see any justification.

2008-07-23 09:39:14
28.   Sliced Bread
21 yeah, maybe it doesn't add up, and maybe Posada can't hit at all, but the Yanks have invested a lot in that bat this season, and runs have been hard to come by (not so much this week).
Regardless of his previous struggles as a PH/DH, and how many win-shares he might contribute down the stretch, if there's a chance that Posada's bat can still help this team, I'm all for waiting a few weeks to see.

26 the question of whether he should hit, or if it will exacerbate his injuries, I'll leave that to the doctors and trainers. If they say he can do further damage by swinging, surgery it is then, no questions asked.

2008-07-23 09:39:26
29.   ms october
sliced - i think one of my main objections is there is a good chance is this won't be two weeks - it will continue to drag on - while they see how his shoulder improves - and then he is not ready for next year.
so let's say he rehabs and they think he can give playing a shot - worst case scenario is posada will be hurt worse; ineffective is a poor scenario; and the best case is he hits great, but he is doing that as dh or 1bman, so he is taking abs away from someone (probably mostly giambi)who is his equivalent - and the yanks still have the same weaknesse in the lineup.
2008-07-23 09:47:13
30.   Sliced Bread
29 good points all around, but I don't think he should play 1b. Best case I think is PH.
He still might be able to produce in that role better than anybody else on the roster, but I wouldnt wait more than a few weeks to see if that's possible.
2008-07-23 09:51:19
31.   Schteeve
And Sexson better come up big today, to justify taking OBPStache out of the lineup.
2008-07-23 09:52:36
32.   cult of basebaal
what's the deal with the weather, this game gonna start on time?
2008-07-23 09:54:26
33.   Sliced Bread
32 from midtown I can see no reason why they won't start on time. It's not raining.
2008-07-23 09:55:11
34.   Eirias
So which thread is the game thread?
2008-07-23 09:58:33
35.   OldYanksFan
A few things. In general, I 96.471% agree it's time to cut Po (with a knife, I mean). But in order to reach 100%, I need to know the following.
1) Forget 1st base. We have Jason, Sexy and Bittermint. At best, Po is a pure DH. NEVER throws a ball.
2) Will batting further injure his shoulder?
3) If JD is our LFer, who's our DH? Sexy is in against LHP, but what about the other 70% of the time. Betemit? Is he our best?

The bottom line is we should sign Bonds yesterday. We really should get a real OFer. But IF Po can swing without further damage, and if he can post a .800 OPS or better, I can see keeping him UNTIL we get another bat. We can NOT replace Po's bat inhouse and make the PS.

We need to stop with the Washburns and Vidros and get some talent. TB will slide. The have many more road games them home games. We should be able to get the WC. But if Po is out, we NEED TO GET ANOTHER BAT!

2008-07-23 10:10:59
36.   mehmattski
Versus Lefties, 2008:

Damon: 112 PA, .278/.369/.402
Giambi: 108 PA, .235/.398/.518

Why is the Stache sitting?

2008-07-23 10:11:40
37.   rbj
Jeebus, have the damn surgery already Jorge. It's easier to find a replacement level bat for the rest of this season than it is to find an all-star caliber switch hitting catcher to start next season.
2008-07-23 10:12:34
38.   OldYanksFan
2009 Free Agents:

If teams are going to lose these guys anyway, then to get them now vai trade, should NOT cost too much in terms of players. Is that a fair assumption. If so, WHY DON'T WE HAVE ONE YET? An OFer is both an immediate and future need. We have kids oin the farm to trade. This need is legitimate enough to let go of some kids.

My short list

Matt Hilliday (29) (2010)
Milton Bradley (31)
Jason Bay (29) (2010)
Adam Dunn (29)
Juan Rivera (30)
Brian Giles (38)
Vladimir Guerrero (33)

2008-07-23 10:14:15
39.   Sliced Bread
nice first frame by Moose.
It's a Good Moose Day.
2008-07-23 10:15:11
40.   Shaun P
38 Matt Hilliday (29) (2010) - won't hit out of Coors, they are asking the world for him because he's cheap next year

Milton Bradley (31) - I've got nothing here

Jason Bay (29) (2010) - they are asking the world him because he's cheap next year

Adam Dunn (29) - has limited no trade

Juan Rivera (30) - I'm not sure this is a solution

Brian Giles (38) - team option for next year that's certain to be exercised

Vladimir Guerrero (33) - uh, OYF, the Angels aren't about to trade their best hitter

2008-07-23 10:16:18
41.   rbj
38 Doesn't Vlad have a no-trade clause? And IIRC, I think he definitely does not want to play in NY.
2008-07-23 10:17:12
42.   monkeypants
24 Giambi, batting .235/.398/.518 against lefties, is benched. Justin Christian makes his first start in two weeks.

This is a somewhat misleading juxtaposition. Christian is starting because Gardner has sucked (and because it's a LHP). This has nothing to do with Giambi, and even if the Big 'Stache were in the lineup, Christian would still likely get the start in LF.

Frankly, the way Gardner is hitting, I don't see this as a bad move. Heck, Gardner may be most valuable now as a late inning PR.

On the other hand, Giambi is sitting primarily (it is assumed) because they are facing a LHP. If so, then this is indeed a silly decision.

2008-07-23 10:17:52
43.   Sliced Bread
40 more likely in 2009 they'll change their name to The Los Angeles Gurreros Of Anaheim.
2008-07-23 10:18:10
44.   Schteeve
Giambi is sitting to justify the acquisition of Richie Rich.
2008-07-23 10:18:22
45.   mehmattski
40 Bradley's going to be worth a ton on the free market, so maybe it would be worth seeing if he can be pried from the Rangers via trade... and boy do they need pitching.

Unfortunately, are we certain that in the next week the Rangers will decide they can't make the playoffs? They're 6.5 back in the wild card race.

2008-07-23 10:18:53
46.   Eirias
Thanks, Dr. Waldman.
2008-07-23 10:19:26
47.   mehmattski
42 Christian is also starting because Damon has not been cleared to play in the field just yet. Which is why it's curious to choose one left-handed hitter over another, particularly in choosing the hitter who is worse against lefties...
2008-07-23 10:19:30
48.   OldYanksFan
36 Seems to me Girardi is resting Jason about 1 out if every 5 games. I don't think it has anything to do with his splits. So now when Jason rests, Sexy plays 1st instead of Betemit.

After all, who thought Jason would NOT be injured by he ASB, not to mention having an OPS of .900+. I can't fault Girardi for going easy on Giambi.

2008-07-23 10:20:49
49.   ChrisS
40 To add: Guerrero isn't going anywhere as a FA, the Angels have an option on him. Texas has cooled on trading Bradley; if he leaves as a FA, he'll definitely be a type A. Juan Rivera is getting playing time and the Angels like him. Bay probably isn't going anywhere. The Pads have said they're keeping Giles.

Dunn is the most likely, IMO, to be in pinstripes next year - unless the Yankees reach a deal with Abreu.

2008-07-23 10:20:57
50.   Sliced Bread
Giambi generally doesn't start day games after a night trim.

Read that however you wish.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-07-23 10:22:17
51.   weeping for brunnhilde
Do we really want Dunn and all his K?

I would really hope we go in another direction

I'm tired of swings and misses.

2008-07-23 10:22:18
52.   cult of basebaal
40 i love folks (and i'm not picking on you shaun) who make statements like ... so and so's a home field mirage, he's never hit away from X park so he never will!

remember when soriano was traded from the rangers to the nats? remember how everyone (and i'm in the everyone here) thought that that was a terrible deal and that soriano wouldn't hit at all in washington?

how about when the mariners picked up ibanez? another case of a player with extreme home/away splits going to a much tougher hitting environment. another case of the existing splits not being meaningful at all.

home/away splits are just not thought of as being very predictive when assessing a players future performance anymore ...

2008-07-23 10:23:41
53.   mehmattski
51 I want Dunn and his ability to get on base and hit the ball a very long way. I never get tired of those things.
2008-07-23 10:25:53
54.   Sliced Bread
Moose walking off the mound like he doesn't have time for these bitches.
2008-07-23 10:26:20
55.   cult of basebaal
52 or, i should say, that using the away portion of home/away stats is not very predictive of the future total level of production.
2008-07-23 10:26:39
56.   mehmattski
54 He just wants his donuts.
2008-07-23 10:27:44
57.   OldYanksFan
40 So what.... there's nobody to be had? As more teams lock up quality players early, the number of impact FAs is shrinking and therefore the price is going up. We know what we will get from the farm in the next 2 years (position wise, AJax is about it). There are some positions we will have to go out-of-house for.

If teams are going to lose these guys anyway, isn't their choice:
1) Lose them and get a draft pick or 2
2) Trade them and get 3 or 4 Yankee farm hands.

Am I missing something? If Milton is going to cost a forture and Texas can't keep him, isn't trading him better then holding him?

2008-07-23 10:28:48
58.   OldYanksFan
50 Too hung over?
2008-07-23 10:29:15
59.   monkeypants
51 It must have killed you to lose Miggy Cairo, who always seemed to make contact.

Or is the direction that you want to move in to acquire players who hit for high average and hit the ball a long way and drive in runs and never strike out? I thinkk every GM wants to do that. The trick is finding 9 or 10 Joe DiMaggios.

2008-07-23 10:30:05
60.   cult of basebaal
57 depends on whether you think the 3-4 yankee farm hands will be worth more than the 2 picks (probably 1x1st round and 1x supplemental round) that Bradley will net you if he signs somewhere else ...
2008-07-23 10:30:11
61.   Sliced Bread
ARod fouls out, Sex jammed, and then robbed...

Cano... refuses to swing at first pitch dirtball... drives next pitch to left for single.

Cano is very right.

2008-07-23 10:30:29
62.   Shaun P
52 Its a fair point, cult, but, in this case, Holliday would be coming from the weaker league, to the stronger one (not vice versa, as Sori did, or staying in league, like Ibanez), and Holliday (unlike Sori and Ibanez) had never before played his home games in a moderate environment.

Also note that Soriano did hit better on the road (.912 OPS) than at home (.909 OPS) in 2006; its just that he hit so well overall.

2008-07-23 10:30:39
63.   mehmattski
Melky, meanwhile...
2008-07-23 10:30:52
64.   Sliced Bread
Melky first pitch pop to short.
Nothin' doin.
2008-07-23 10:31:25
65.   cult of basebaal
man, the RIPPER'S hotter than saucy jack and sweeney todd all rolled into one ... slash 'em RIPPER, slash 'em!
2008-07-23 10:33:34
66.   rbj
Further update re: Posada from Peter:

"UPDATE, 1:07 p.m.: The decision to delay surgery for Jorge Posada is being driven, at least partly, by team president Randy Levine according to several people close to the situation. He thinks the Yankees need to get some return on the money they spent on Posada."

Words fail me, and any action would most likely be illegal.

2008-07-23 10:33:42
67.   monkeypants
57 I'm not at all convinced that teams are liking up quality players more or that the number of impact FAs are fewer--ie, there has been no structural change, these things always go through cycles.

Two things HAVE changed however. First, the WC keeps more teams in it longer, or at least convinced more times that they should not be "sellers." Thus, there are fewer opportunities to pick up good players midseason. Without the WC, teams like Texas or Toronto would have started to dump already.

Second, it seems that more players have NTC, which significantly complicates trade scenarios.

2008-07-23 10:34:00
68.   Shaun P
61 Nothing can stop Robbie "I'm up to .265!" Cano.

52 And another thing. We agree Holliday will not hit in YS like he does in Coors (career: .365/.428/.663), right? So why pay premium price for him, which is what the Rockies will want?

2008-07-23 10:35:05
69.   Shaun P
66 Words fail me.
2008-07-23 10:36:07
70.   Sliced Bread
66 Levine seems like the type of money guy who'd suggest Posada wash Yankee executive cars to earn his check.
2008-07-23 10:36:13
71.   OldYanksFan
52 I do agree with you. A bigger park may mean less HRs but more gappers. However, Coors may be an exception. It does inflate numbers. It is not about park dimentions but about the unique 'atmospheric environment'.
So if Holliday is 1.112 at home and .859 on the road, mathimatically his OPS is 1.004 but I would call him a .900-.950 guy on another team.
2008-07-23 10:36:46
72.   Rob Middletown CT
66 What. The. Fuck.

Everything I've ever heard about Randy Levine has been bad.

2008-07-23 10:38:02
73.   Schteeve
Does Moose have 12 wins or 13?
2008-07-23 10:38:44
74.   Rob Middletown CT
71 I agree. I'd take .900-.950, though, if he plays respectable defense.

Our RFer is currently rockin' a .792 and playing terrible D.

Hmm, I'm warming to Holliday some.

2008-07-23 10:39:30
75.   Schteeve
70 It's just another example of business myopia. In lots of different industries, leaders manage for the next quarter or couple of years at best. There are perfectly understandable reasons for doing that, but it is still infuriating.
2008-07-23 10:40:13
76.   Sliced Bread
Sex flashin leather.

An observation.

Not the title of the last movie I saw.

2008-07-23 10:40:48
77.   ms october
66 man, if that's true that is exactly why so many of us were so critical of him.
dary returns oyf.
2008-07-23 10:40:58
78.   Schteeve
76 You should see it!
2008-07-23 10:41:08
79.   rbj
73 12. #13 comes today.
76 Is that the one starring A-Rod & Madonna?
2008-07-23 10:42:27
80.   monkeypants
71 Doesn't OPS+ more or less solve this problem, by regularizing hitting stats to include park factors? In theory, a player hitting 1.000 OPS for the Rockies should have a lower OPS+ than a player hitting 1.000 OPS for the Yankees. Or do I misunderstand?
2008-07-23 10:42:34
81.   tommyl
66 Why the fuck is Randy Levine making baseball decisions? If that's true Cashman and Hank/Hal need to sit down with him and tell him to stick to accounting or whatever the hell it is he does. I had assumed this was an issue of Posada and maybe Girardi being overly optimistic and having pride. That I could at least understand, but that?! That's fucking absurd.
2008-07-23 10:44:51
82.   cult of basebaal
68 who said anything about blindly agreeing to the unreasonable price that the rockies have reportedly set for him?

what i said is that the statement that holliday "won't hit out of Coors" isn't supported by studies that have been done.

your further qualifications make your position more tenable (though i discount any meaningful effect to league switching) but your original statement is, at the very least, guilty of terrible hyperbole ...

2008-07-23 10:44:54
83.   tommyl
80 Except that no one has ever figured out what to do with Coors. In fact a lot of people just don't use that in their normalization at all.
2008-07-23 10:45:48
84.   Schteeve
80 Maybe I'm dead wrong, but I thought OPS+ was merely an index of OPS v. League Avg OPS.
2008-07-23 10:46:34
85.   Rob Middletown CT
84 That was my understanding as well. I don't think it includes Park factor.
2008-07-23 10:47:00
86.   mehmattski
And if you're getting your OPS+ stats from, then you should be aware that, this season, Coors is an extreme Pitchers Park. It's true:

2008-07-23 10:47:12
87.   monkeypants
66 75 77 81 et al.

I simply refuse to get worked up over a story whose only evidence is the infamous unnamed "sources close to the situation."

And in any case, Posada is a free man, no? Whatever Levine or whoever says, if he decides to have surgery no one can stop him (or compel him to do so if he doesn't want to).

2008-07-23 10:48:30
88.   Shaun P
82 Guilty of hyperbole, as charged. Holliday will probably hit OK out of Coors in a different uniform, ~.900 OPS.

But I'm not convinced that, based on two examples - Soriano in 2006 and Ibanez since he left KC - that one should throw park effects completely out the window when looking at a hitter. Especially when that hitter plays for the Rockies.

2008-07-23 10:48:33
89.   OldYanksFan
66 That has to be 'let's make up some news'. I can't believe the Steinettes could be that stupid.
2008-07-23 10:48:51
90.   mehmattski
84 85 Wrong. Check out here:

under Adjusted OPS+. Park factor is definitely included.

2008-07-23 10:49:32
91.   Travis08
86 A 109 park factor indicates an extreme hitters park.
2008-07-23 10:50:10
92.   mehmattski
91 Gah. All right, then. I think I need to get new contacts...
2008-07-23 10:50:26
93.   Rob Middletown CT
90 I stand corrected.
2008-07-23 10:50:30
94.   Schteeve
90 Is there an "unadjusted OPS+"
2008-07-23 10:51:47
95.   tommyl
87 Actually I don't think so on the last point. Wasn't this precisely the issue that came up with Schilling where he wanted the surgery and the team forced him to rehab. I think the team actually gets final say unless the condition is life threatening or off the field health related, but I'm not sure. Anyone know?
2008-07-23 10:52:04
96.   monkeypants
84 85 86 Baseball-reference sems to incorporate park factor into OPS+:

My method is slightly more complicated, but I think it is more correct. The BPF is set up for runs and the way it is implemented in PRO+ applies it to something other than runs.

My method
1. Compute the runs created for the league with pitchers removed (basic form) RC = (H + BB + HBP)*(TB)/(AB + BB + HBP + SF)
2. Adjust this by the park factor RC' = RC*BPF
3. Assume that if hits increase in a park, that BB, HBP, TB increase at the some proportion.
4. Assume that Outs = AB - H (more or less) do not change at all as outs are finite.
5. Compute the number of H, BB, HBP, TB needed to produce RC', involves the quadratic formula. The idea for this came from the Willie Davis player comment in the Bill James New Historical Baseball Abstract. I think some others, including Clay Davenport have done some similar things.
6.Using these adjusted values compute what the league average player would have hit lgOBP*, lgSLG* in a park.
7. Take OPS+ = 100 (OBP/lgOBP + SLG/lgSLG* - 1)
8. Note, in my database, I don't store lgSLG, but store lgTB and similarly for lgOBP and lg(Times on Base), this makes calculation of career OPS+ much easier

2008-07-23 10:52:10
97.   Shaun P
88 I would also worry that Holliday never again hits like he did in 2007 (his age-27 season, BTW). That's more a worry for signing him long-term than trading for his year plus.

In any case . . . hey, is there a game going on?

2008-07-23 10:53:57
98.   Sliced Bread
Moose doesn't have time for these bitches.

Run support, please.

2008-07-23 10:54:00
99.   mehmattski
2008-07-23 10:54:02
100.   weeping for brunnhilde
How 'bout that Mike Mussina?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-07-23 10:54:39
101.   Rob Middletown CT
What is his defense like?
2008-07-23 10:54:40
102.   Rob Middletown CT
What is his defense like?
2008-07-23 10:54:51
103.   weeping for brunnhilde
98 Oh, you want good pitching and run support?

Jesus, why not demand a cadillac, while you're at it.

2008-07-23 10:54:58
104.   Yankee Fan In Boston
mike mussina is my hero. i don't know how he's doing what he's doing this year, but jeez, it is impressive.
2008-07-23 10:56:25
105.   mehmattski
96 Incidentally I think that #3 may be a big flaw in OPS+ calculations. What reason is there to expect an increase in walks and especially HBP with a smaller ballpark? I don't have conclusive evidence either way, but you can play with the park-factors on's page and the rankings are different if you select HR, 2B, and walks.

98 Maybe Mussina should put a pillow under his jersey so that the team thinks that Ponson is pitching...

2008-07-23 10:57:30
106.   tommyl
104 Command, command, command. You heard about the pFx studies, aside from the inside fastball it tends to be much more about where you throw, how accurately you get it there and mixing pitches. Moose does all those things well.
2008-07-23 10:58:06
107.   Travis08
Rockies at home: 294 runs scored, 263 allowed in 52 games.
Rockies on the road: 173 runs scored, 270 allowed in 50 games.

It's kind of bizarre that they give up fewer runs at home than on the road.

2008-07-23 10:58:06
108.   OldYanksFan
88 This year, Holliday has a .860 OPS on the road, where most players hit worse on the road. So my guess is he's a legit .900 OPS guy or better. Also, as far as I know, Park Factors which apply to OPS, are based on RUNS SCORED, not OBP and SLG. So I don't give much weight to OPS+ being a true equalizer.

Did you notice the HR to RIGHT field Holliday hit in the ASG? Well back into the seats. The guy can hit. (And I think he is Eckstein gritty).

2008-07-23 10:58:28
109.   weeping for brunnhilde
59 Here we go again. :)

Ten DiMaggio's would suit me fine, but seriously, I'm just talking about sacrificing power for contact/average.

I'd be happier with a 15-20 HR guy who makes consistent hard contact.

2008-07-23 10:58:46
110.   Sliced Bread
103 yeah, gimme a cadillac while yer at it... and make it an Abreu.
2008-07-23 10:58:56
111.   Schteeve
I smell an A-Bomb from A-Rod.
2008-07-23 10:59:22
112.   mehmattski
101 Holliday's ranks in RZR among all LFs:

2008: .926 (1st)
2007: .892 (3rd)
2006: .871 (8th)

2008-07-23 11:00:07
113.   Schteeve
109 The Yankees don't hit enough, and the Yankees don't hit enough home runs. Sacrificing power (of which we really don't have much) would be an incredibly bad idea.
2008-07-23 11:00:50
114.   Sliced Bread
weird deal. Perkins late to cover the bag, duffs the DP.

Here's Alex.

2008-07-23 11:01:20
115.   mehmattski
Ugh. Way to let Perkins off the hook for his brain fart, Bobby.
2008-07-23 11:01:42
116.   Yankee Fan In Boston
2008-07-23 11:02:03
117.   Sliced Bread
oh fuck, the Cadillac Abreu blows a flat trying to steal...
2008-07-23 11:02:56
118.   rbj
Run support . . . run support. We just had some in stock, dunno if we still have any. We'll have to check the back room.
2008-07-23 11:03:04
119.   Travis08
In other bad news, the Rays scored 3 in the bottom of the 5th to take a 3-2 lead.
2008-07-23 11:03:28
120.   weeping for brunnhilde
110 Heh hehe heh!

That's very funny, only, I don't quite see him as cadillacing around, unless you're referring to his fear of walls?

2008-07-23 11:03:30
121.   Sliced Bread
fuck it, Moose doesn't have time for run support. He'll win this himself somehow. Give him a fuggin' bat.
2008-07-23 11:04:40
122.   Rob Middletown CT
112 Ok, I'm officially interested now. He looks like an above-average fielder and an above-average hitter. Not elite, but good.

Now let's talk pricetag. What would you give up for him?

2008-07-23 11:04:46
123.   Sliced Bread
120 nah, I've been calling him the Cadillac Abreu since he got here.
Smooth. Quiet. Comfortable.

I love Bobby at the plate.

2008-07-23 11:05:20
124.   weeping for brunnhilde
113 I disagree, but that's ok. Frankly, I think that relying on Giambi and Alex for power with bit parts by everyone else is more than adequate to win games if you have solid hitters elsewhere in the lineup.
2008-07-23 11:07:37
125.   williamnyy23
I hate not having Giambi in the lineup, especially against a lefty (Giambi's OPS against lefties is over .900 this season). If getting Sexson means Giambi sits against lefties, it was a horrible pick up.
2008-07-23 11:08:12
126.   Eirias
Should have saved up our hits.
2008-07-23 11:08:41
127.   weeping for brunnhilde
Nice play by that Sexson character!

Good throw.

2008-07-23 11:09:10
128.   monkeypants
109 Perception is everything, at least sometimes. You fear that the team strikes out too much and you want them to move in a different direction ("just say no to Dunn"). Consider the following:

Yankees Team Strikeouts

Year: MLB Rank (out of 30), AL Rank (out of 14)
2008: 29, 13
2007: 22, 10
2006: 18, 6
2005: 19, 8
2004: 23, 11
2003: 12, 5
2002: 3, 1
2001: 22, 7
2000: 22, 9

So, this year, the Yankees are NOT striking out very much at all. Yet sadly, they can't score. Moreover, except for 2002-2003, they have consistently been in the lower half of MLB teams for team K and around average or a tick better for AL teams.

Really, strike outs are not the problem. Sacrificing power is kooky talk.

2008-07-23 11:09:31
129.   OldYanksFan
IMHO, Park Factors should NOT be calc'ed on a yearly basis. Parks don't change (unless there are walls moved in/out, changes to the stands, etc). But short of physical changes to the ballpark, the PF of any one park should be FIXED.

But because PFs are calc'ed yearly, they vary greatly, because the PFs are based are the random performance and composition of players that year.

I would cummulated PFs from each year, and divide by the number of years, so a PF would be more of a historical Stat instead of a purely annual one.

If PF sayd Coors field is a pitchers park, that tells you all you need to know about PF.

96 Your calcs are based on OBP and SLG (not runs scored) which I like. Does BR do the same? ESPNs numbers are garbage.

2008-07-23 11:10:16
130.   weeping for brunnhilde
123 Oh! I thought the term was akin to 'hotdog,' referring to a player's ostentation and a little to laziness due to the player's feeling above it all.
2008-07-23 11:11:01
131.   mehmattski
124 You know, the 1998 Yankees had two players with 100+ strikeouts. And Brosius (97), Posada (92), and Straw (90) were not far behind. In total, they struck out 1030 times, This year's team is on pace for 930 strikeouts.

The team also hit 207 home runs. This team is on pace for 157. That's a huge difference.

There is indisputable evidence that teams that score more runs also strike out more. If you want to watch a good offense, you're going to have to get used to watching strikeouts.

2008-07-23 11:11:55
132.   weeping for brunnhilde
128 Ha haha hah!

Well, it certainly may be kookytalk; someone's gotta be willing to be kooky around here.

2008-07-23 11:13:19
133.   weeping for brunnhilde
131 I'm not disputing the numbers. All I know is, the more like Don Mattingly a player is, the better.

He's my gold standard.

2008-07-23 11:13:58
134.   rbj
131 "There is indisputable evidence that teams that score more runs also strike out more. If you want to watch a good offense, you're going to have to get used to watching strikeouts. "

Ah so that's why we got Sexson. For all them strikeouts.

2008-07-23 11:14:22
135.   Yankee Fan In Boston
133 forget about mike mussina. you are my hero now.
2008-07-23 11:14:40
136.   Sliced Bread
130 yeah, Cadillac's not the most appropriate nickname for Abreu, but I mean it as a compliment.

Shit, Cano can't be stopped.

2008-07-23 11:14:59
137.   weeping for brunnhilde
Robbie is making me feel ecstasy.

He would have grounded that pitch to second earlier in the season.

I'll take a team full of this kind of hitter any day. Mattingly, Cano.

It just does my heart good.

2008-07-23 11:15:28
138.   mehmattski
133 I love Donnie Baseball too... but...

I would take a team full of Adam Dunn over a team full of Don Mattingly. Given similar pitching staffs, my team would beat your team at least 6 out of every 10 times.

2008-07-23 11:15:53
139.   monkeypants
129 If PF sayd Coors field is a pitchers park, that tells you all you need to know about PF.

You need to catch up, man! That was a mistake--Coors has an extreme hitters PF this season. See 86 .

But short of physical changes to the ballpark, the PF of any one park should be FIXED.

Wrong! PF measures the parks hitterness/pitcherness relative to the league. So, changes in OTHER parks in the league wil have an impact on a given field's PF regardless of changes to that field.

In general, though, your point has merit. It's beter to look at three-year or five-year PF. Baseball-reference has three-year PFs, IIRC.

2008-07-23 11:16:03
140.   tommyl
Robbie may bat .800 in the second half or something. Wow.
2008-07-23 11:16:11
141.   Sliced Bread
holy shit! Melky hit a single!

I know I shouldn't be that surprised, but...
holy shit! is this a rally, Jose?

2008-07-23 11:16:26
142.   rsmith51
I am telling you we should bat Robbie 3rd starting July 1. He hits like Donnie B in the mid 80's.
2008-07-23 11:16:43
143.   williamnyy23
With Cano hitting again, I think Girardi has to seriously consider a revamped lineup as well as having a RH and LH lineup.
2008-07-23 11:16:58
144.   Travis08
129 The 3-year park factor of Coors Field is 108, not very far off from 2008's.

I'm pretty sure 86 was a mistake. Coors Field has never played as anything other than a hitter's park, though the humidor has eliminated some offense.

2008-07-23 11:17:34
145.   SF Yanks
Ugh, I actually feel bad for the guy.
2008-07-23 11:17:41
146.   tommyl
PH Betemit here?
2008-07-23 11:17:50
147.   Sliced Bread
March on Christian soldier!
2008-07-23 11:19:04
148.   Yankee Fan In Boston
christian the lion!
2008-07-23 11:19:16
149.   tommyl
Well, guess not and glad to be wrong :). Gardner just saw his playing time cut in half right there.
2008-07-23 11:20:19
150.   mehmattski
This is a strange so far.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-07-23 11:20:33
151.   monkeypants
133 Which Donnie BAseball do you want? The 1985-1986 version who hit 35 HRs and didn't strike out is fine. But then again, no one disputes that--those seasons represent a rare combination of high power, high average, high contact, low strike out. So yes, 10 vintage Mattingly's would be about as good as 10 vintage DiMAggios

However, the 1990-1991 version of Mattingly was very, very stinky, no matter how rarely he K'd.

2008-07-23 11:21:43
152.   Rob Middletown CT
Cano basically didn't strike out the first half of this season. That didn't work very well.
2008-07-23 11:22:00
153.   cult of basebaal
a couple of articles addressing the use of home/road splits to project future performance:

2008-07-23 11:22:11
154.   monkeypants
131 I should say, see 91 ...86 was a mistake.
2008-07-23 11:22:34
155.   OldYanksFan
124 Who's more valuable?
Player A: .300 .400 .500 - 180 Ks
Player B: .300 .400 .500 - 60 Ks

What is the REAL difference between the 2?
Here's what I get.
Player B has more 'productive outs' and maybe a few more DPs. So maybe Player B is a tiny, little bit more valuable.

124 Who's more valuable?
Player A: .250 .380 .520 - 180 Ks
Player B: .300 .370 .460 - 60 Ks

And Dunn is better then Player A.

JC >>> Brett Gardner?

2008-07-23 11:23:19
156.   williamnyy23
138 Depends on which Don Mattingly you are talking about. The pre-injury one is a better hitter than Adam Dunn and a much better player when you include defense.
2008-07-23 11:24:22
157.   weeping for brunnhilde
151 I'd even take the '84 version with 23 homers.

Or, for that matter, the '84 Dave Winfield with 19 homers.

I'm really just talking about looking for that Mattingly as the ideal. If you have to settle for Dunn, fine, but I guess I'm saying I'd really make an effort to construct a team according to that ideal rather than according to a high homerun ideal.

Obviously, it's an imperfect world, but Dunn's K totals, as I recall, are really, really high. Not just high, but really high.

I just can't stand to see a guy K with RISP in a tight game.

2008-07-23 11:25:50
158.   cult of basebaal
155 JC is a RHB, with much the same skillset as BG. with our starting OF of (essentially) 3 LHBs, i'd say JC is the better option as the 4th OF.
2008-07-23 11:26:40
159.   OldYanksFan
You shitfuck assholes! Wake the god damn fucking up you stupid bastards and god damn fucking play some jesus fucking baseball
2008-07-23 11:27:10
160.   Rob Middletown CT
157 I hate outmaking w/RISP in a tight game. Heck, I just hate outmaking, period. Because, after all, RISP result from not making outs.

If one wants to worry about Adam Dunn, isn't his career performance w/RISP the thing to worry about?

2008-07-23 11:27:34
161.   williamnyy23
157 The 1984 Mattingly was an awesome ballplayer. He led the AL in OPS+ that season and then finished 3rd in 1985 and 1st again in 1986 before plummeting to 6th in 1987. When you throw in truly gold glove defense, the Mattingly over that span was truly a great player.
2008-07-23 11:27:54
162.   cult of basebaal
159 whoa! dude! are you channeling jim dean?
2008-07-23 11:28:43
163.   cult of basebaal
2008-07-23 11:29:27
164.   seattleyank
157 Guys like Dunn help you put runs on the scoreboard so you have fewer tight games.

I get that you love Donnie Baseball (who here doesn't?), but it's not there are a ton of players out like him just waiting to picked up. In fact, there probably aren't any. To expect the Yankees to try to build a club of Mattingly's just isn't realistic.

With the exception of maybe Pujols, all hitters have some flaw. But strikeouts are not a major one if a player can get on base and slug.

2008-07-23 11:29:59
165.   mehmattski
160 Right, and due to his high on base percentage, Dunn makes an out fewer times than most other players. And that's a good thing, right?

Dunn seems to have the same OPS regardless of game situation throughout his career:

The thing to worry about with Dunn, from the stats, is that he's been an awful second-half player most of his career, especially in August/September.

2008-07-23 11:30:44
166.   monkeypants
157 Mattingly 19984 had an OPS+ of 156 and slugged over .500.

Again, I am not disputing that Mattingly 1984/1985/1986 is a sort of gold standard. And of course teams try to build teams according to an ideal. But how many Good Vintage Matinglys are there? How many DiMaggios?

It seems to me unrealistic to avoid an Adam Dunn, especially with this season's dismal offense, because he's not Mattingly 1985.

One last thought, then I grow weary with this. I too get frustrated when a batter Ks with RISP. But I get just as frustrated by weak ground balls and pop ups and double plays. I alo get frustrated with a team that collects endless singles but can't scor because they never get long hits.

What you really want is a player who never fails to drive in runs. Don't we all.

2008-07-23 11:31:15
167.   williamnyy23
Sexson is tall!
2008-07-23 11:31:24
168.   Sliced Bread
159 watch the salty language. Fuckin' matinee goin' on here.

Fuck yeah, Moose! Way to hold down the fort.

2008-07-23 11:31:33
169.   OldYanksFan
Sexy needs to try diving ON the ball.

Moose looks at Moose with the evil eye.

2008-07-23 11:32:05
170.   Rob Middletown CT
165 Oh, I generally agree with you about OBP. I'm all about OBP.

I thought I'd read that his stats w/RISP were - for his career - bad. I guess not.

The 2nd half thing... yeah, we don't want to trade for April-June Robbie Cano. This team kinda needs 2nd-half 2006 Bobby Abreu.

2008-07-23 11:32:18
171.   Schteeve
Mike Mussina's wallet is the one that says, "Bad Motherfucker" on it.
2008-07-23 11:32:30
172.   OldYanksFan
Moose is unbelievable!!
Over/under anyone for Moose wearing Pinstripes in 2009?
2008-07-23 11:32:49
173.   rbj
I wonder if Moose is going to bark at Girardi to stay in the dugout -- this is his game.
2008-07-23 11:34:07
174.   monkeypants
157 "Obviously, it's an imperfect world, but Dunn's K totals, as I recall, are really, really high. Not just high, but really high."

OK, one more comment. As I like to point out, Babe Ruth was in the top 10 in Ks every year of his career from 1918 to 1935; he was first or second in the league 12 times.

2008-07-23 11:34:09
175.   Yankee Fan In Boston
re: adam dunn

if you've never read, you're missing out. also, they are constantly defending mr. dunn.

here is an example:

2008-07-23 11:34:24
176.   Rob Middletown CT
171 And that wallet is looking to get fatter than anyone expected this offseason.
2008-07-23 11:35:41
177.   monkeypants
Damn, Span almost got to that ball in the gap. I didn't know RFs did that.
2008-07-23 11:35:50
178.   pistolpete
172 Let's see how the rest of the season goes first.

Moose could implode down the stretch and we're all back in favor of wiping his salary off the payroll as we were in ST...

2008-07-23 11:35:55
179.   tommyl
172 If he keeps this up he could be the defending Cy Young award winner. ERA creeping closer to 3 as we speak.
2008-07-23 11:36:42
180.   tommyl
Ah, Derek woke up too. Man this team is infinitely better when Jeter, Cano and Melky start hitting.
2008-07-23 11:37:37
181.   weeping for brunnhilde
All right, Team, now we're cooking!

Come on, Alex!

2008-07-23 11:37:50
182.   Rob Middletown CT
Heh. Walk Abreu to get to ARod. Good idea.
2008-07-23 11:38:26
183.   pistolpete
My god, what did all these guys do with their 4 days off? Miracle tonics? Hyperbaric chambers?
2008-07-23 11:39:08
184.   Schteeve
183 Giambi Juice.
2008-07-23 11:39:09
185.   monkeypants
161 Donnie's 1985 season got all the press, because of the MVP and his traditional counting stats (145 RBI!), but his 1986 season was his best. When he followed up 1985, I thought for sure I was watching a HOF heading into his prime. Pro sports and human (physical) frailty are a cruel pair.
2008-07-23 11:40:45
186.   williamnyy23
That was an awful send by Meacham. They got away with it, but still.
2008-07-23 11:40:53
187.   monkeypants
A-Rod thought he had that one and posed for a second, and Meacham is tried to kill Abreu. But it all turned out good.
2008-07-23 11:41:02
188.   Yankee Fan In Boston
bobby fixed his flat!
2008-07-23 11:41:02
189.   tommyl
A-Rod continues to be well, A-Rod. He might win the MVP again.
2008-07-23 11:41:33
190.   Rob Middletown CT
2008-07-23 11:41:35
191.   RIYank
Wow, we're having a great game and everyone is discussing whether Adam Dunn's Ks are a problem! Weird.
2008-07-23 11:41:46
192.   tommyl
4 run lead, Moose cruising. Let's put this one away guys.
2008-07-23 11:41:51
193.   pistolpete
We gotta come up with a nickname for Meacham. Something along the lines of "Windmill Willie" when Randolph was first at that position...
2008-07-23 11:41:54
194.   Schteeve
Wiggle Your Big Toe!
2008-07-23 11:41:56
195.   weeping for brunnhilde
Now we're cooking with gas!


2008-07-23 11:42:30
196.   tommyl
Next year right after spring training I think we should have a "fake" all star game and not tell the Yankees its fake.
2008-07-23 11:42:31
197.   Knuckles
Any truth to the rumor that Selig had Meachem kidnapped during the ASB and replaced with Dale Sveum wearing a Bobby Meachem mask? Eesh...
2008-07-23 11:42:36
198.   cult of basebaal
186 2nd one today. molina should have been out by 10 feet as well.
2008-07-23 11:42:41
199.   Yankee Fan In Boston
191 well, when farnsworth comes trotting in from the bullpen, we'll probably return to the usual discussions.
2008-07-23 11:43:15
200.   rbj
Ah yes, there was some more run support in the store room.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-07-23 11:43:27
201.   tommyl
C'mon Gardenhire, you know you want to go to your middle relief again. Bring them in...
2008-07-23 11:43:36
202.   RIYank
By the way, I'm in favor of doubles with runners on first and second. They're better than strike outs.
2008-07-23 11:43:45
203.   monkeypants
191 Just talkin' baseball on a lazy weekday afternoon. ; )
2008-07-23 11:44:17
204.   cult of basebaal
ah robbie, why must you disappoint us so!


2008-07-23 11:44:19
205.   pistolpete
199 Your Farnsworth humor isn't quite relevant these days... ;-)
2008-07-23 11:44:54
206.   Schteeve
203 It's the greatest thing ever. Well, next to lesbian porn.
2008-07-23 11:45:05
207.   Yankee Fan In Boston
205 old habits, much like bruce willis, die hard.
2008-07-23 11:45:12
208.   KYK
why is sexson batting above cano? why aren't they reversed?
2008-07-23 11:45:15
209.   monkeypants
202 But did you see A-Rod pose?!? So lazy...
2008-07-23 11:45:44
210.   weeping for brunnhilde
All right, all right! I give up, sign Adam Dunn!

Whooooo! Adam Dunn!

(Do I have to like it, too?)

2008-07-23 11:47:20
211.   Rob Middletown CT
210 You will watch Adam Dunn strike out, and YOU WILL LIKE IT.

In Soviet Russia, outs strike you.

2008-07-23 11:47:21
212.   OldYanksFan
Weeping... just for you Bubalah

Top 15 Strikeout years.
2004 Adam Dunn, Reds
1970 Bobby Bonds, Giants
2002 Jose Hernandez, Brewers
1969 Bobby Bonds, Giants
2000 Preston Wilson, Marlins
1987 Rob Deer, Brewers
1986 Pete Incaviglia, Rangers
2001 Jose Hernandez, Brewers
2001 Jim Thome, Indians
1990 Cecil Fielder, Tigers
2003 Jim Thome, Phillies
2000 Mo Vaughn, Angels
1975 Mike Schmidt, Phillies
1986 Rob Deer, Brewers
2001 Richie Sexson, Brewers

2008-07-23 11:47:33
213.   Alex Belth
Hey, not for nothing, but A Rod Cadillac'd that one. If his fat ass was running out of the box he'd finally get that triple. Fat ass.
2008-07-23 11:49:07
214.   Yankee Fan In Boston
213 If his fat ass was running out of the box he'd finally get that triple. Fat ass.

i just spit my water all over the place.

2008-07-23 11:50:30
215.   weeping for brunnhilde
Cheers, OYF.

I must say I'm disappointed my old pal Steve Balboni's not on the list.

2008-07-23 11:50:35
216.   RIYank
213 I'd rather have Mike Lowell. He hustles, always.
2008-07-23 11:51:25
217.   Raf
So Jay Gibbons was able to find work before Barry Bonds? Weird.
2008-07-23 11:51:36
218.   tommyl
216 So does Brett Gardner. I'll take one of the greatest players of all time, but that's just me. He did reach third anyways.
2008-07-23 11:52:21
219.   RIYank
208 I asked the same question. Last thread, I guess.
2008-07-23 11:52:31
220.   cult of basebaal
218 i think 216 was a wee bit of a joke ...
2008-07-23 11:52:48
221.   OldYanksFan
A week ago, the WC standings were

After a 3 game sweep of Oakland

After a 3 game sweep of Minn

Next? Boston. BRING IT ON!!!!!

2008-07-23 11:52:52
222.   cult of basebaal
2008-07-23 11:52:57
223.   tommyl
Hey this "Moose" kid is pretty good. Someone should sign him.
2008-07-23 11:53:32
224.   tommyl
220 I know, I was making a joke back.
2008-07-23 11:53:34
225.   Knuckles
215 Yeah, but unfortunately back then, no one knew just how valuable all those K's were, so Balboni spent too much time on the C-bus shuttle to amass 200 punchouts in a season.
2008-07-23 11:54:04
226.   Schteeve
I hope someday, I'm not sitting around watching Shortstop 3000XL dog it to first, and say something like, "Eh, I'd rather have Jeter."

That barely makes any sense, I realize.

2008-07-23 11:54:44
227.   pistolpete
2008-07-23 11:55:09
228.   williamnyy23
Adam Dunn today: 2-4, 1HR, 2R, 5 RBI, 1K
2008-07-23 11:56:02
229.   RIYank
2008-07-23 11:56:03
230.   mehmattski

(Bows in awe)

2008-07-23 11:56:19
231.   Travis08
That list is as of 2004. For recent years, add Ryan Howard 2007 (1st), Adam Dunn 2006 (3rd), and Ryan Howard 2006 (tied for 14th). Howard's on pace to break the record this year.

2008-07-23 11:56:21
232.   weeping for brunnhilde
He's a fucking voodoo doctor out there!


2008-07-23 11:56:38
233.   OldYanksFan
2008-07-23 11:57:06
234.   monkeypants
228 Don't you mean:

Adam Dunn today: 2-4, 1HR, 2R, 5 RBI, 1K!!!!!!!!!!!!

2008-07-23 11:57:22
235.   RichB
So, Sexson with RISP is now 2 for 4 with 2 BB and a SF

Oddly, he's had only 10 PAs with the Yanks and 7 of them have been with RISP.

2008-07-23 11:57:32
236.   Schteeve
7IP, no walks, 6 hits, 5 SOs. Who IS this guy?
2008-07-23 11:57:37
237.   monkeypants
How many pitches does Moose have? it would be fun if he could get a CG/SO.
2008-07-23 11:58:10
238.   weeping for brunnhilde
228 Ok, ok!!! Sign him up and get him a cadillac, already!
2008-07-23 11:58:15
239.   cult of basebaal
just an EVIL change of pace from the dark lord MOOS-IFER!

after all, the dark one works in powers of deception!

2008-07-23 11:58:19
240.   RIYank
228 Yeah, but that strike out was a killer, and so ugly!
2008-07-23 11:58:32
241.   Yankee Fan In Boston
237 i was just checking. he's around 80. this would be his 1st CG of the season.
2008-07-23 11:58:42
242.   weeping for brunnhilde
234 Oh, god, mp, you're killing me!
2008-07-23 11:58:42
243.   Schteeve
227 Because in the future, the VORPIES will have taken over, and baseball will be played by robots who are not programmed to steal bases.
2008-07-23 11:58:43
244.   Schteeve
227 Because in the future, the VORPIES will have taken over, and baseball will be played by robots who are not programmed to steal bases.
2008-07-23 11:58:44
245.   OldYanksFan
The Babe, Mantle, Ryan Howard, Adam Dunn... they're all overrated.
I'll take Gritty McSlapstein anyday!
2008-07-23 11:59:20
246.   RichB
Moose is only at 90 pitches. Could he go the distance? CGSO?
2008-07-23 11:59:30
247.   Zack
That strikeout pitch to end the 7th was a thing of beauty. 69 MPH down and to the left breaking curve-type thingy :)
2008-07-23 11:59:52
248.   Just fair
Warn the town the Moose is loose, Ah - ah, Ah - ah
Word 'em up y'all
2008-07-23 11:59:55
249.   ChrisS
strike 3, siddown, you.

So Moose is now 8th in the AL in ERA. Not bad for a ol' junk baller. Who knew he'd be this good this year?

2008-07-23 12:00:30
250.   Schteeve
249 Jamie Moyer.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-07-23 12:01:02
251.   Zack
Hey, the kid didn't fall down this time. Good for you!
2008-07-23 12:01:23
252.   RichB
250 Yeah, looks like he took Hank's advice.
2008-07-23 12:01:31
253.   pistolpete
Here's a mini-poll for the Banterites:

Which is more fun to see on a strikeout?

- 95mph+ fastball, wiffed on
- 95mph+ fastball on outer half of plate, looked at
- 80mph changeup/curve, looked at
- 80mph chanegup/curve, badly missed

I used to think I loved seeing the Joba-type strikeout where the batter's swinging above his head, but the older I get, I think I'm deriving more satisfaction from the ones that Moose has been dealing out lately...


2008-07-23 12:01:48
254.   Just fair
Dear Brett,
This is how you do it.
Your buddy,
2008-07-23 12:01:51
255.   RIYank
2008-07-23 12:02:00
256.   OldYanksFan
I don't know if Moose will get a CG, but I would like to see Girardi try to get him in the 8th and have Moose tell him to 'get the hell back in the dugout'.

That Moose/Torre moment was really one of the great moments of the decade.

2008-07-23 12:02:35
257.   monkeypants
244 Yes, the robot ballplayers will be programmed by bloggers who wear Star Trek jammies in their mother's basement while typing away about OBPST.

In those dark times to come, there will be no beauty or joy or intangibles.

2008-07-23 12:02:40
258.   tommyl
You have to hand it to Mussina. His fastball is topping out at 85mph and he's one of the best pitchers in baseball still. Man I hope he ends up as a pitching coach or guru in our system at some point. Maybe he'll start throwing a knuckleball next, or just invent a new pitch.
2008-07-23 12:02:44
259.   Zack
253 The more Bugs Bunny the pitch, the more I love to see a hitter miss badly. That's the beauty of the change, for me.
2008-07-23 12:02:55
260.   cult of basebaal
do not ask for whom the bell tolls, brett gardner, it tolls for thee ...
2008-07-23 12:03:07
261.   ChrisS
Christian might end up taking some ABs from Gardner. I guess that whoever starts in LF friday night will be a surprise - my money is on Damon.
2008-07-23 12:03:37
262.   Zack
258 but don't forget, this is the same Moose who up until about start 3 this year, refused to make any changes to his approach. Not sure he would be the best coach...
2008-07-23 12:04:00
263.   Schteeve
253 Depends on the set up. In the case of Mooses last SO, he had been going away, away, away, and then plopped that thing inside under the hands. That is a thing of beauty to me.
2008-07-23 12:04:12
264.   OldYanksFan
- 80mph changeup/curve, looked at

Does Moose go 8? Or...
LaTroy and then Giese?

2008-07-23 12:04:28
265.   Yankee Fan In Boston
258 yes. i wish the IPK/Mussina/Hughes locker arrangement was still in effect, because he could be dropping knowledge.
2008-07-23 12:04:55
266.   RichB
253 - 80mph chanegup/curve, badly missed

No question. I love it when they look foolish hacking helplessly.

2008-07-23 12:05:21
267.   pistolpete
262 Yeah, I see Moose as more of a snarky ESPN-type analyst that we all love to hate once he's off the team...
2008-07-23 12:05:25
268.   ChrisS
I can't see Moose leaving this game until he gives up a run or hits 120 pitches.
2008-07-23 12:06:10
269.   RIYank
253 It depends so much on the situation. For instance, that infamous Manny at-bat might be unsurpassable, though in general I might prefer swinging.
2008-07-23 12:06:14
270.   OldYanksFan
Frig. TB up by 2 in the 9th.
2008-07-23 12:06:39
271.   monkeypants
261 Yeah, the Gardner-Christian death match is ultimately irrelevant, I think. Johnny will re-occupy LF, and either Christian or GArdner will serve adequately as an extra OF/PR. More critical in that case will be how Girardi handles 1B/DH.
2008-07-23 12:06:57
272.   Schteeve
257 And it will never be allowed for an AmericanFootball Punter 2800i to play baseball.
2008-07-23 12:07:02
273.   RichB
265 OMG, yes. IPK needs to study Moose film right now. Especially the off the field stuff where Moose is all about shutting up and pitching his game.
2008-07-23 12:07:52
274.   Yankee Fan In Boston
273 ha!
2008-07-23 12:07:53
275.   OldYanksFan
Where's William? William... why are you so quite?
2008-07-23 12:08:14
276.   Schteeve
I think Moose will disappear from the public eye when he's done playing.
2008-07-23 12:08:51
277.   pistolpete
275 Looking up Adam Dunn stats. ;-)
2008-07-23 12:10:10
278.   OldYanksFan
Moose would be great in the booth.
2008-07-23 12:10:39
279.   RIYank
Damn. Moose wants the CG.
2008-07-23 12:11:22
280.   RichB
276 He has a degree in Economics from Stanford and millions of dollars to spend. He'll probably be a host on CNBC.
2008-07-23 12:11:28
281.   monkeypants
278 It would be funny watching/listening to Moose have to tolerate the idiocy of a Kay or Sterling.
2008-07-23 12:11:41
282.   cult of basebaal
261 i'm pretty certain that gardner is sent down to SWB once damon shows he can play LF everyday
2008-07-23 12:11:52
283.   Knuckles
267 I can see Moose either becoming the best pitching coach in the history of the world, or leaving baseball entirely, surfacing a few years later with a new way of valuing injury risk in professional sports and parlaying that into a Hedge Fund/ Sports Agent firm that turns baseball on its head.
2008-07-23 12:12:29
284.   pistolpete
281 Kay hates the Moose, I don't think we'll be seeing him in the booth any time soon.
2008-07-23 12:13:42
285.   RichB
281 Would Kay & Moose even occupy the same room?
2008-07-23 12:13:54
286.   Yankee Fan In Boston
speaking of the bugs bunny change, edwar is up in the pen.
2008-07-23 12:14:18
287.   cult of basebaal
2008-07-23 12:15:01
288.   RichB
Moose just cracked 100 pitches
2008-07-23 12:15:28
289.   seattleyank
284 Why? What's the history between the two?
2008-07-23 12:15:39
290.   williamnyy23
275 I am here and active. Hard to keep track of multiple games on, post frequently and pretend to be working.
2008-07-23 12:15:41
291.   williamnyy23
275 I am here and active. Hard to keep track of multiple games on, post frequently and pretend to be working.
2008-07-23 12:15:43
292.   pistolpete
Anyone watching the Tampa/Oakland gane perchance? How does a guy score (Cust) from second on a sac fly?
2008-07-23 12:15:46
293.   mehmattski
285 Kay hates Moose. He once spent an entire show berating Moose for not having higher win totals.
2008-07-23 12:16:38
294.   weeping for brunnhilde
Fucking voodoo doctor.

My God.

Bravo, Mike Mussina.


2008-07-23 12:16:54
295.   Alex Belth
Wow. Mooseriffic.
2008-07-23 12:16:57
296.   Travis08
292 Cust went to 3rd on a wild pitch before the sac fly.
2008-07-23 12:17:06
297.   ChrisS
Sick, just sick.

Moose ain't done yet.

2008-07-23 12:17:12
298.   monkeypants
292 Bernie Williams or Johnny Damon throws the ball in?

OK, that was just mean...

2008-07-23 12:17:15
299.   williamnyy23
292 He had moved to 3rd on a WP. I guess they left that play out.
2008-07-23 12:17:26
300.   Just fair
Moose is going to have a shit eating grin doing his puzzles tonight. That last K was bee-you-tee-full.
Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-07-23 12:17:31
301.   Yankee Fan In Boston
293 that makes perfect sense.

moose hates winning. always has.

2008-07-23 12:17:41
302.   pistolpete
296 Thanks, Gamecast didn't mention that.

289 Just Google 'Michael Kay' and 'Mussina', you'll figure it out from the results...

2008-07-23 12:17:55
303.   cult of basebaal
2008-07-23 12:18:56
304.   williamnyy23
Rays win, but they should beat the A's at home. If anything, the Yankees should have taken 2 of 3 from the Twins and the Rays should have swepts, so the Yankees are one up.

Looking at the schedules, the Sox have to be the favorites to win the division, but TB could struggle.

2008-07-23 12:19:13
305.   tommyl
So gents, Moose out for the 9th? or lift him?
2008-07-23 12:19:35
306.   pistolpete
7 K's, unreal. This rivals the game that Pettitte had the other day...
2008-07-23 12:19:44
307.   rbj
I think he's graduated from good Moose to great Moose.
2008-07-23 12:20:34
308.   monkeypants
305 I would send him out there, but for no rational reason.
2008-07-23 12:20:36
309.   OldYanksFan
After we play Boston, we play Baltimore at Home while Boston plays the pesky Angels at Fenway. Should be a very interesting week coming.

Yankees/Sox on national TV Saturday and Sunday, so don't make any plans guys.

2008-07-23 12:20:46
310.   pistolpete
305 If he does, a collective groan goes out from all the Mets fans watching.

What's his pitch count?

2008-07-23 12:21:09
311.   rbj
305 CG for Moose.
2008-07-23 12:21:23
312.   mehmattski
310 105
2008-07-23 12:21:23
313.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
Well, I happily submit that I was wrong. 100%, unequivocally wrong. If we'd traded Moose 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 way into the season, as I insisted we should (before he reverted to the mean of a below ARP) we'd be 10+ games out and (gulp) sellers at this point.

I've never been so happy to be wrong in my entire life!

2008-07-23 12:21:40
314.   Knuckles
I love the fact that they so dominated the Twins this week that they have to put Nathan into a 5-0 game just to get some work in.
2008-07-23 12:21:47
315.   weeping for brunnhilde
Richie Sexson is of preposterous height.
2008-07-23 12:22:02
316.   cult of basebaal
305 he appears to be gone ... big round of appreciation in the dugout ...
2008-07-23 12:23:18
317.   OldYanksFan
2008-07-23 12:23:44
318.   weeping for brunnhilde
Come on, Robby, one more for the road...
2008-07-23 12:24:01
319.   RichB
305 I'd ask him. He's a vet. Girardi should go up to him and say "We can bring in Edwar for the ninth. Should we?"
2008-07-23 12:25:55
320.   OldYanksFan
2008-07-23 12:26:12
321.   ny2ca2dc
I want Moose out of this game. We need him the rest of the way.
2008-07-23 12:26:21
322.   Schteeve
I'd just like to point out that A-Rod was awesome today, only getting a hit when we really needed it, no stat padding here!
2008-07-23 12:26:41
323.   pistolpete
320 No!!!!
2008-07-23 12:27:17
324.   mehmattski
Looks like its Hawkins. With Bruney to pitch two days in a row tonight, he may get a call-up on Friday. Perhaps this is the last appearance for LaTroy?
2008-07-23 12:27:40
325.   OldYanksFan
105 pitches for Moose. I guess that's enough.
2008-07-23 12:28:04
326.   pistolpete
324 Sadly I think it'll be someone like Robertson or Giese to go down for Bruney.
2008-07-23 12:28:59
327.   tommyl
Well Hawkins doing his thing (giving up hits). Paging Mariano Rivera, Mr. Rivera, please return from the clubhouse.
2008-07-23 12:29:17
328.   OldYanksFan
The Banter is a great blog, but... well... too many people wearing rose colored glasses here.
2008-07-23 12:29:32
329.   williamnyy23
I don't like bringing in LaTroy here because it necesitates keeping Mo at the ready.
2008-07-23 12:29:36
330.   monkeypants
324 I winder. I have a sneaking suspicion that unless he is traded, they keep Hawkins for a bit longer--maybe going with 13 pitchers and sending down Gardner/Christian, or sending donw someone with options (Geise?).
2008-07-23 12:29:50
331.   ChrisS
Ahoy, LaTroy.

I kinda feel bad for LaTroy, he's the only one in the bullpen that hasn't been dusted by the bullpen fairy's magic pixie dust.

Then again, I'm sure he cries himself to sleep at night on his giant pile of money.

2008-07-23 12:29:53
332.   tommyl
326 I'd swap Gardner for Gonzalez once Damon is healthy, release Hawkins and bring up Bruney.
2008-07-23 12:30:26
333.   cult of basebaal
324 that's what i've been thinking ... DFA gives us 10 days to trade him to somebody for ... well, something
2008-07-23 12:30:46
334.   monkeypants
329 Off day tomorrow. Perfect day to keep Mo ready.
2008-07-23 12:30:50
335.   tommyl
Paging Mr. Rivera, please come at once to the bullpen mound. At once.
2008-07-23 12:31:16
336.   Shaun P
324 Fair travels, then, to LaTroy!

I had to leave the office and was stuck with Sterling and Waldman. At ~2:29PM, Sterling almost got me killed. As I was driving, he said, and I quote, "Now, I don't want to be a cliche master here, but . . . " at which point I began laughing so hard I almost drove off the road.

He also later mentioned how great a defender Sexson was, and completely changed his voice to say "leather" - which made me think of 76 and, again, almost caused me to drive off the road. Comedy gold.

2008-07-23 12:31:31
337.   cult of basebaal
326 i really doubt that. robertson is pitching very well and giese fills the long man/mop up role that hawkins is supposed to, but doesn't.
2008-07-23 12:31:37
338.   pistolpete
An out! An out! The first glorious out!
2008-07-23 12:32:08
339.   mehmattski
328 Yes, I liked the game threads a whole lot better when everyone said they "hated this team" and "couldn't bear to watch," and said "this season is over." Let's go back to that!
2008-07-23 12:32:29
340.   pistolpete
337 Well unless Hawk's traded, who loses a roster spot?
2008-07-23 12:32:46
341.   cult of basebaal
328 & 329 =)
2008-07-23 12:32:53
342.   tommyl
Ugh, LaTroy Hawkins needs to go. Whatever number he's wearing, he still stinks.
2008-07-23 12:32:57
343.   williamnyy23
334 I guess, but I hate to see him warming up for no reason. I'd also like to see him get an extended rest heading into this weekend.

LaTroy is not long for this team, so why even throw him out there anymore?

2008-07-23 12:32:58
344.   Zack
This is stupid. its like Girardi wanted to waste Mariano today.
2008-07-23 12:32:59
345.   Travis08
One more baserunner and it's a save situation.
2008-07-23 12:33:39
346.   OldYanksFan
Maybe with a little luck, we are watching LaTroy earn a bus tickey here.
2008-07-23 12:33:46
347.   Yankee Fan In Boston
mo is warming up.
2008-07-23 12:33:53
348.   monkeypants
OK, one more batter for Hawkins, and then bring in Mo regardless...maybe a chance for quickie save.
2008-07-23 12:34:28
349.   RichB
I say DFA Hawkins. Let some other desperate team pick him up and let's get a draft pick back.
2008-07-23 12:34:48
350.   Schteeve
339 Yeah! The good ol' days.
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2008-07-23 12:34:55
351.   tommyl
349 Do you get a pick from a midseason DFA?
2008-07-23 12:35:10
352.   tommyl
350 You mean last week?
2008-07-23 12:35:11
353.   rbj
Mo didn't pitch the past couple of days and tomorrow's an off day. So obviously Joe put LaTroy in to create a save situation so that Mo will get his work in in a proper save situation and not just mop up work as he doesn't do as well there.

Brilliant strategy.

2008-07-23 12:36:02
354.   Zack
Well, that last hit wasn't really Hawkins fault, a good pitch and hit right where A-Rod should have been...

This is the stupidity of the save rule in effect. The only reason to turn to Mo here is because of the "save situation"

2008-07-23 12:36:11
355.   mehmattski
349 That's not how it works. Yankees would only get a draft pick if Hawkins is offered arbitration after the season (which they definitely won't) AND Hawkins is rated in the top 15% of all relief pitchers (which he's not), and THEN he signs with another team.

If Hawkins is DFA'd and then released, any team picks him up pays him the prorated league minimum, but the Yankees also pay him what they owe him the rest of this season.

2008-07-23 12:36:19
356.   Raf
Hawk should be able to get one more out, right?
2008-07-23 12:36:20
357.   weeping for brunnhilde
Well, I was thinking a couple innings ago that I almost wished they could manage to scratch out two runs somehow.

Here he comes.

2008-07-23 12:36:21
358.   williamnyy23
This strikes me as simply trying to get Rivera a save.
2008-07-23 12:36:30
359.   Yankee Fan In Boston
joe didn't have much to say to latroy on the mound.
2008-07-23 12:36:30
360.   RichB
353 You may not be far off.
2008-07-23 12:36:43
361.   pistolpete
353 Well, I certainly hope Mo puts guys like Hawkins and Gordon in the forward of his autobiography...
2008-07-23 12:36:47
362.   monkeypants
344 Really, Mo hasn't been used in a couple of games and there's an off-day tomorrow. You have to be able to put in your last reliever with a five run lead.

I don't see how having Mo throw to one batter is wasting him.

2008-07-23 12:37:05
363.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
Are you effin kidding me? Having to bring Mo in in this game??? DFA Hawk NOW. Might have to start my own blog...
2008-07-23 12:37:28
364.   williamnyy23
351 No...besides, Hawkins didn't even rate a draft pick when the Yankees signed him this offseason. That's what made that switch from Vizcaino to Hawkins palatable.
2008-07-23 12:38:08
365.   Raf
356 Guess not
2008-07-23 12:38:19
366.   OldYanksFan
Girardi does NOT allow LaTroy to clean up his own shit? Well, I think that's it for Mr. Hawkins.

Start spreading the news...
I'm leaving today...
San Francisco here I come.

2008-07-23 12:38:27
367.   mehmattski
I think Mo should allow Hawkins' runners to score, just because.
2008-07-23 12:38:31
368.   Shaun P
Is Moose giving Hawkins the evil eye for losing the shutout?
2008-07-23 12:38:49
369.   monkeypants
Was Mo's first pitch a change-up? That sure looked funny.
2008-07-23 12:38:52
370.   RichB
355 I must be thinking of the waiver wire deals. You get draft picks for picking up someone off waivers. (right?)
2008-07-23 12:39:15
371.   Zack
362 Be honest. The only reason you go to Mo here is because of the save. If you want to get him work, have him start the inning and give him an innings worth. Otherwise, call on Robertson or another reliever, no?
2008-07-23 12:39:27
372.   tommyl
The contrast between everyone else in the pen and Hawkins is really drastic right now. I have faith in almost our entire pen. The only faith I have in the Hawk is that he'll enter and give up hits and most likely a run or three. He needs to go, the second Bruney can pitch. If not Bruney I'd rather have Cox, Patterson or Strickland up here. If someone is going to stink, might as well get a kid some experience.
2008-07-23 12:39:45
373.   monkeypants
368 I hope not, because Moose doesn't get credit for a SO if he never finished the game. I assume that Moose knows the scoring rules better than that!
2008-07-23 12:39:56
374.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hah ah ah aa ha ha ha !!!

Mariano Rivera, ladies and gentlemen.

Mariano Rivera.

2008-07-23 12:40:01
375.   pistolpete


::new yoooooorkkkkkkk::

2008-07-23 12:40:06
376.   Yankee Fan In Boston
2008-07-23 12:40:08
377.   Just fair
Paint it black, baby. Paint it black.
2008-07-23 12:40:11
378.   williamnyy23
I don't know...a save like that seems so beneath Mo. It gives fodder to the Gooses of the world who hate the modern day closer.
2008-07-23 12:40:35
379.   ChrisS
That Rivera guy is purty good at shuttin' the door where others (ahem, LaTroy) fail.
2008-07-23 12:40:53
380.   Shaun P
Well, that was over quickly.

Glory be to Mo. And Moose.

2008-07-23 12:41:06
381.   weeping for brunnhilde
359 In fact, if I'm not imagining, he even seemed to shake his head in mild disgust.
2008-07-23 12:41:12
382.   mehmattski
370 Nope, a team that claims another off waivers is responsible for the entire contract of that player. The team that loses a player due to waivers is SOL.

The wikipedia page is pretty accurate and a good source:

2008-07-23 12:41:14
383.   williamnyy23
370 You only get draft picks if you lose a rated player to free agency.
2008-07-23 12:41:32
384.   pistolpete
378 Good god, man.
2008-07-23 12:41:36
385.   rbj
I was right! And Mo only used 4 pitches so he'll still be fresh for Boston.
2008-07-23 12:42:00
386.   cult of basebaal
the hawk seems a really nice guy. i hate the flack he took over # 21, but it's time to say goodbye.
2008-07-23 12:42:02
387.   vockins
Double sweep against two WC contenders is pretty sweet.
2008-07-23 12:42:08
388.   Shaun P
373 Me too, but I figure the old guy would be cranky about seeing all his lovely goose eggs get replaced by a "1". Even if it doesn't affect his stat sheet at all.
2008-07-23 12:42:25
389.   Schteeve
378 Who cares about saves. It's a stupid rule. It's not Mo's fault. They just won their 6th straight.
2008-07-23 12:42:36
390.   Sonya Hennys Tutu
378 I had the same thought William. That said, Thank God for Mo.
2008-07-23 12:42:43
391.   ChrisS
Mo is now a mere 2 and a 1/3 innings away from being all-time era+ leader on baseball-reference.
2008-07-23 12:43:25
392.   monkeypants
372 I agree, but that is not mutually exclusive with the idea that going to Mo for one batter is not a waste. And, it may even make more sense to send Mo in the game rather than Edwar (for example) who had pitched in two consecutive games, IIRC.

Frankly, if it were me, once Hawkins got to two outs I would have let him pitch to another couple of batters. Then, if things got dire, I would have gone to Mo.

2008-07-23 12:43:59
393.   weeping for brunnhilde
378 Who gives a rat's ass about any of that?

His pitching is a revelation; were there no such stat as the save, his pitching would still be drop-dead gorgeous.

Goose should just worry about Goose.

2008-07-23 12:44:20
394.   williamnyy23
389 You don't and I don't, but someone must, otherwise Mo wouldn't have pitched.

391 I can't wait to check it out the morning after! Hopefully he gets there by Monday morning.

2008-07-23 12:44:20
395.   williamnyy23
389 You don't and I don't, but someone must, otherwise Mo wouldn't have pitched.

391 I can't wait to check it out the morning after! Hopefully he gets there by Monday morning.

2008-07-23 12:44:31
396.   RichB
371 Eh... one out doesn't add much to Mo's mileage. And, he is very sensitive to taking too much time off. If he didn't pitch tonight he'd go into Friday's game with 4 days rest. Not a bad idea to bring him in to loosen up a bit.
2008-07-23 12:44:46
397.   OldYanksFan
381 I'm guessing around 5 million people shook their heads in mild disgust.
2008-07-23 12:44:49
398.   Alex Belth
Moose n Mo.

A good combination.


2008-07-23 12:46:07
399.   weeping for brunnhilde
Just a gentle reminder: one day Mariano will be gone.

Never shall we see another.

Can we just bask in the glory while we can, without getting (too) hung up on terms of usage?

2008-07-23 12:46:11
400.   Schteeve
I'm just saying that giving fodder to Goose Gossage never crosses my mind. That dude needs to shut his clamhole.
Show/Hide Comments 401-450
2008-07-23 12:46:18
401.   mehmattski
391 Not just first place, but first place by 40 points!
2008-07-23 12:48:02
402.   monkeypants
378 Yet one could argue that a save like that is more like what the firemen of old did: come into a tight game with men on base and put out the threat. It's more "honorable" then coming in to start the ninth with a three run lead and mow down the 7-8-9 hitters.

Or at least that's the way I would argue it...

2008-07-23 12:48:06
403.   rbj
399 La la la la la la I can't hear you.
2008-07-23 12:48:33
404.   OldYanksFan
2015 First ballot HOFer?
2008-07-23 12:49:15
405.   RichB
302 Not totally SOL. You get something back via a trade. I can't imagine you'd get much for Hawkins, though.
2008-07-23 12:50:27
406.   OldYanksFan
My my mymymy.. how 6 days has changed our tune here. Matt Holliday.. Come on down!
2008-07-23 12:50:53
407.   RIYank
I'm with weeping: screw the save, hooray for getting one more pearl on the necklace.
2008-07-23 12:50:57
408.   mehmattski
Also, for those not swayed by ERA+, Rivera's 1000 innings pitched gets him on the raw ERA leaderboard too. Depending on how many earned runs he allows in those final 2.33 innings (hopefully none!) Rivera will go on the all-time leaderboard somewhere between 14th (tied with Babe Ruth at 2.28 ERA) or 18th (Tommy Bond, 2.31 ERA).


2008-07-23 12:51:10
409.   weeping for brunnhilde
399 I know. It's a ghoulish thought.
2008-07-23 12:51:59
410.   weeping for brunnhilde
406 Heh heh heh.
2008-07-23 12:52:20
411.   RIYank
406 It seems like there should be a way of getting some kind of fungible, useful thing in exchange for a guy who isn't actually worth a useful player.
Like a draft pick, say. Why aren't there more baseball trades involving draft picks?
2008-07-23 12:52:40
412.   rbj
405 Just replacing Hawkins with Bruney would be enough. A bag of used balls would be whipped cream and a cherry on top.
2008-07-23 12:52:54
413.   RIYank
Sorry, I meant 405 , not 406 .
2008-07-23 12:53:20
414.   mehmattski
411 You mean, any trades involving draft picks. It's not allowed by the current CBA, and never has been allowed.
2008-07-23 12:53:35
415.   pistolpete
Bottom line is that Mo is the best door-slammer, arguably of all-time. Tainted save or not, he's your best option.
2008-07-23 12:54:33
416.   Shaun P
408 Praise be to Mo.

399 Can't we pretend its not true?

Umm, for those who like baseball in general, you should go take a look at some of the other box scores from the games going on.

I will say nothing more.

2008-07-23 12:55:31
417.   tommyl
408 Its frightening that Babe Ruth pitched over 1000 innings of 2.28 ERA ball. Yowza.
2008-07-23 12:56:32
418.   RichB
412 Totally agreed.
2008-07-23 12:56:58
419.   OldYanksFan
From PeteAbe:
'Posada also revealed that he called Joe Torre to ask for advice. Obviously he wants the opinion of somebody outside the organization. Posada is not the kind of guy who would mindlessly do what the team asks. He'll try and do what is right.'

I LOVE that guys still call Joe T. Front office or not, Joe is still aprt of the family.

'Just spoke to Brian Cashman, who said the decision on Posada involves everybody from the trainers on up to ownership. He feels that Posada would fill a need the team has now "better than anything I can get in a trade" so he wants to see whether rehab is possible.'

I may have called that one right.

2008-07-23 12:57:36
420.   tommyl
416 Oh, holy wow....6 innings so far.
2008-07-23 12:58:05
421.   RIYank
414 Oh, that explains it.
Why isn't it allowed?
2008-07-23 12:58:13
422.   RichB
417 Well, it was entirely in the dead ball era. The league ERA didn't go above 3.00 until 1919, the last year that the Babe pitched.

Not to say that he wasn't very good. Just some perspective.

2008-07-23 13:02:48
423.   cult of basebaal
well, that's the end of that ...
2008-07-23 13:04:01
424.   ChrisS
423 No sooner than when gamecast loaded for me. Whoo.
2008-07-23 13:04:16
425.   monkeypants
422 Still, that means he stopped pitching with the 14th best career ERA to that day, which is not too shabby. He finished in the top 10 ERA three times, and had the league's best ERA in 1916.
2008-07-23 13:04:53
426.   weeping for brunnhilde
416 Do let's: La la la la la!
2008-07-23 13:05:28
427.   Shaun P
423 Crud. Just saw. If that's the only base runner . . . wow.
2008-07-23 13:06:13
428.   weeping for brunnhilde
424 Yeah, he should have stayed a pitcher and spared the Yankees all those agonizing Ks.

The big galut.

2008-07-23 13:08:45
429.   tommyl
Even more good news, there's a good chance Manny will be out for at least some of the upcoming series with a sore knee. Yay!
2008-07-23 13:10:18
430.   JL25and3
From work to the game and back to work in almost exactly three hours. What an unexpectedly interesting, satisfying and uninterrupted game.
2008-07-23 13:11:49
431.   rbj
429 Is it a sore knee or sore wallet?
I think Ortiz is back though.
2008-07-23 13:14:14
432.   RIYank
431 If he's fine today in the Portland Sea Dogs game, he plays against us Friday, yep. Ortiz, I mean.

As for Manny, I was looking forward to seeing his antics, and not very scared of his bat, so, too bad. (On the other hand the BoSox bench is pretty thin, so whoever fills in will be worse than even 75% of Manny.)

2008-07-23 13:15:26
433.   JL25and3
425 Not to mention those World Series stats: 3-0, 0.87, 31 IP, 19 H. His first WS start was a 14-inning complete game 2-1 win.
2008-07-23 13:16:46
434.   JL25and3
432 You're not scared of Manny's bat? I'm always afraid (and in awe) of it.
2008-07-23 13:19:58
435.   Mattpat11
I really, really want to see Mussina win 20, and its starting to look like he has a real shot.
2008-07-23 13:22:12
436.   pistolpete
Anyone catch this on FoxSports:

"Up next is a trip to Boston, with the Yankees taking their mediocre 23-23 road record into Fenway Park for three games starting Friday."

Umm, 'mediocre'..? Try second best road record in the American League!

(sadly enough)

2008-07-23 13:24:32
437.   tommyl
436 To be fair that's from the AP, and yeah I noticed that too.
2008-07-23 13:27:23
438.   RichB
425 Oh, he was a great pitcher. But, that 2.28 ERA was only good for an ERA+ of 122. Coincidentally, that's Mike Mussina's ERA+.

What was it they were saying on Fox a couple weeks ago... every pitcher with 100 more wins than loses is in the Hall of Fame and Mussina has 113 more wins than loses.

So, being on par with Mussina is not too shabby, yes.

2008-07-23 13:32:37
439.   weeping for brunnhilde
432 Wow, is he playing on the Sea Dogs?

I just saw them take on the...the...the Rock Cats a couple of weeks ago, but that was, I believe, AA. Gardenhire's son was on Portland.

2008-07-23 13:40:02
440.   Yankee Fan In Boston
439 he's playing for pawtucket. (last i knew.) he's been launching majestic bomb after majestic bomb.

those hopes of diminished power due to the wrist injury i was clinging to seem to have vanished.

2008-07-23 13:43:38
441.   tommyl
Mmmmm...Joba vs. Beckett Friday night. I'm salivating already.
2008-07-23 13:47:12
442.   Shaun P
436 If 23-23 is mediocre, what would the AP call 19-25? 23-32?

Those are the road records, respectively, of the Rays and the Red Sox.

In fact, only the Yanks and the Angels are .500 or better on the road in the AL.

Mediocre. Bah!

2008-07-23 13:55:11
443.   RIYank
434 No, I think his really scary days are over.
2008-07-23 13:56:21
444.   RIYank
440 He was on the PawSox, but when they went on the road he joined Portland for a while. That's where he is now.
2008-07-23 13:59:50
445.   RIYank
439 Right, the Sea Dogs are AA.
Here's the report on today's game with the Defenders:

Ortiz didn't get a hit. But as YFinB says, he did just fine in his rehab stint overall.

2008-07-23 14:10:56
446.   JL25and3
443 Not against the Yankees, they're not.

2008: .444/.571/.852
2007: .392/.475/.686
2006: .556/.667/1.111

I suppose you could say that he's been in decline against NYY since 2006, but it's still pretty scary.

2008-07-23 15:47:53
447.   JL25and3
2008-07-23 16:02:53
448.   cult of basebaal
WAIT! i finally got 0 !

it's the RIPPER vs the RAPPER!

i'm so SMRT, smart!

2008-07-23 16:28:19
449.   OldYanksFan
448 You are so dope!
Sox about to go to extra innings.
2008-07-23 16:35:10
450.   Eirias
Miguel Cairo's OPS is 1.000 in this game. What did we get for him?
Show/Hide Comments 451-500
2008-07-23 17:04:47
451.   monkeypants
Papelbon in for th ethird straight game...that's good!
2008-07-23 17:11:11
452.   RIYank
Do the Mariners not have any guys they can use as pinch runners?
2008-07-23 17:11:55
453.   Travis08
Kenji Johjima is useless.
2008-07-23 17:17:53
454.   Travis08
And now Willie Bloomquist drops a fly ball with 1st and 2nd and 1 out. The Mariners are awful.
2008-07-23 17:18:13
455.   OldYanksFan
Holy Bloomquist! Unreal.
2008-07-23 17:18:16
456.   RIYank
Wow, the Mariners truly stink. Bloomquist just dropped a routine fly ball with two on in the twelfth.
2008-07-23 17:18:51
457.   OldYanksFan
Talk about giving a game way.
2008-07-23 17:20:09
458.   OldYanksFan
I'm disgusted! Well... it was just a matter of time.
2008-07-23 17:21:22
459.   RIYank
Ah, my fellow Sox fans are all still here.

Seriously, why didn't the M's use a pinch runner last inning? A stolen base or a sac bunt would have won them the game in the 11th.

2008-07-23 17:23:35
460.   Just fair
At least the Seattle residents have the Supersonics to look forward to in the fall. Oh, wait a they don't.
2008-07-23 17:23:38
461.   Eirias
Oh Seattle, how you suck.
2008-07-23 17:23:44
462.   RIYank
That's enough for me. The Mariners have scored three runs in this series; I don't think they're going to be scoring three in the twelfth inning.
2008-07-23 17:54:11
463.   williamnyy23
The peril of being the hunter and not the hunted down the stretch is most of the other teams really suck. Imagine what Rays and Sox fans were thinking as Casillas jogged off the field with only two outs.
2008-07-23 18:09:01
464.   rbj
Obviously the Mariners didn't have enough coffee. If only there was a Starbucks in Seattle. Or any other place to get a cup of coffee.
2008-07-23 18:28:57
465.   cult of basebaal
463 luckily, we get to play the sox and rays 15 more times between now and the finish line ... if we don't win, we should look in the mirror.
2008-07-23 19:09:00
466.   JL25and3
464 Coffee's still no substitute for greenies.

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