Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Boston Red Sox III: Looking Up Edition
2008-07-03 13:12
by Cliff Corcoran

If there's an odd feeling to this weekend's four-game set between the Yankees and Red Sox in the Bronx, it's because the last time these two teams met this late in the season without either one of them holding first place in the AL East was September 1997, when the Orioles won the division, the Yankees won the Wild Card, and the Red Sox finished 20 games out in fourth place. Entering tonight's game, the second place Red Sox are 3.5 games behind the division-leading Tampa Bay Rays, with the Yankees another four games behind the Sox in third place.

The Yankees could pull into a second-pace tie with the Sox by sweeping this weekend's series, but we all know that's not going to happen. Instead the Yankees will hope to take three of the four games, which would pull them within two games of the Sox in the standings. The Sox have lost their last five games to the Astros and Rays, but four of those were one-run losses and the last was decided by a 3-1 score. Still, there's a vulnerability there, much of which has to do with the Red Sox road performance this year.

In a season that has thus far seen abnormally poor performances by road teams in general, the Red Sox have been a primary offender, dominating opponents at Fenway with a .756 winning percentage, but struggling mightily outside of Boston, with a .413 winning percentage elsewhere. Their current 1-5 road trip and 0-6 record when visiting the Rays have a lot to do with that, but so does a pitching staff that has allowed 1.87 runs per game more on the road than at home.

Just looking at the four starters the Yankees are scheduled to face this weekend, Jon Lester, who goes tonight, has an ERA more than a two runs higher on the road than at home. Rookie Justin Masterson, who will face Mike Mussina on FOX on Saturday, adds nearly a run and a third to his ERA on the road, and Tim Wakefield, who will start against Joba Chamberlain in Sunday night's capper, has an ERA more than 70 points higher on the road. In the bullpen, three of Jon Papelbon's four blown saves this season and 10 of the 13 runs he's allowed have come on the road, and Craig Hansen's road ERA is nearly two and a half times his mark at Fenway.

Those losses are tempered somewhat by the fact that Josh Beckett, who starts tomorrow night, and releivers David Aardsma, Hideki Okajima, and Javier Lopez (ignore the ERA, look at his peripherals) have actually been better on the road than at home, but with the offense similarly shedding more than a run off it's home average when wearing road grays, winning on the road has proven a struggle for the Red Sox this year.

The Sox have been to the Bronx once already this season, splitting a two-game set in mid-April. The Sox scored 16 runs in those two games, half of which came against Chien-Ming Wang in the game the Yankees won. The Boston win was largely due to a strong outing by road warrior Josh Beckett and Mike Mussina's inability to retire Manny Ramirez (two at-bats, two homers, three runs).

The recipe for a series win would thus appear to be winning the three games not started by Beckett and having Mike Mussina pitch around Ramirez on Saturday. The trouble with the latter idea is that the man behind Ramirez, Mike Lowell, has a .579/.600/1.158 line in 20 career plate appearances against Mussina, which dwarfs Ramirez's .280/.333/.630 career line in 108 PA against Mussina. Still, the key seems to be to beat Lester tonight with Andy Pettitte on the hill, win the Chamberlain/Wakefield matchup on Sunday, and hope to pull out one of the remaining two.

That doesn't sound so tough. Pettitte has bee fantastic in his last four starts, posting this line: 4-0, 27 IP, 19 H, 2 HR, 7 BB, 23 K, 1.00 ERA, 0.96 WHIP. Lester gave up six runs in five innings against the Astros in his last start and hasn't faced the Yankees since his rookie season of 2006, when he was lit up for seven runs in 3 2/3 innings. Then again, Lester will be fresh as he threw just 76 pitches in Houston and had a 1.63 ERA in his four starts prior to that (three of them came in Fenway, but the best came against the slugging Phillies on the road).

Melky Cabrera returns to center field tonight. Brett Gardner is on the bench and could be a very valuable late-inning weapon in a close game. Wilson Betemit stays at first base against the lefty Lester with Jason Giambi at DH.

Boston Red Sox

2008 Record: 50-37 (.575)
2008 Pythagorean Record: 51-36 (.586)

Manager: Terry Francona
General Manager: Theo Epstein

Home Ballpark (multi-year Park Factors): Fenway Park (106/105)

Who's Replacing Whom:

  • Mike Lowell (DL) has returned to third base, pushing Kevin Youkilis back across the diamond, Sean Casey back to the bench, and Jed Lowrie back to the minors
  • Coco Crisp replaces David Ortiz (DL) in the lineup, with Manny Ramirez shifting to DH and Brandon Moss (minors) taking Ortiz's spot on the roster
  • Justin Masterson (minors) has replaced Clay Buchholz (minors) in the rotation
  • Mike Timlin (DL) replaces Julian Tavarez
  • Craig Hansen (minors) replaces Bryan Corey

25-man Roster:

1B - Kevin Youkilis (R)
2B - Dustin Pedroia (R)
SS - Julio Lugo (R)
3B - Mike Lowell (R)
C - Jason Varitek (S)
RF - J.D. Drew (L)
CF - Coco Crisp (S)
LF - Jacoby Ellsbury (L)
DH - Manny Ramirez (R)


L - Brandon Moss (OF)
L - Sean Casey (1B)
L - Alex Cora (IF)
R - Kevin Cash (C)


R - Josh Beckett
R - Justin Masterson
R - Tim Wakefield
R - Daisuke Matsuzaka
L - Jon Lester


R - Jon Papelbon
L - Hideki Okajima
R - Manny Delcarmen
L - Javier Lopez
R - Mike Timlin
R - David Aardsma
R - Craig Hansen

15-day DL: L - David Ortiz (DH), R - Bartolo Colon
60-day DL: R - Curt Schilling


L - Jacoby Ellsbury (CF)
R - Dustin Pedroia (2B)
L - J.D. Drew (RF)
R - Manny Ramirez (LF)
R - Mike Lowell
R - Kevin Youkilis (3B)
S - Jason Varitek (C)
S - Coco Crisp (CF)
R - Julio Lugo (SS)

Comments (307)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-07-03 14:43:20
1.   Start Spreading the News
This season will suck a lot less if the Red Sox don't make the playoffs.
2008-07-03 14:47:10
2.   Cliff Corcoran
1 I can't see the Sox and Yanks both not making it. I think the Wild Card will come from the East this year.
2008-07-03 14:55:04
3.   randym77
Figures. The day after they say Gardner is going to play, not sit on the bench...he's sitting on the bench. :-D

And Andy Phillips is back with the Reds. The Mets DFA'd him, and the Reds took him back. Daryl Thompson, the kid who flummoxed the Yanks in his first big league start, was sent down make room for Andy.

2008-07-03 15:06:20
4.   OldYanksFan
With Po behind the plate, it will be essential to keep Ellsbury off the bases. Every single/walk he gets, will be a double or triple.
2008-07-03 15:06:29
5.   3rd gen yankee fan
Are we ready for the Red Sox??? YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2008-07-03 15:07:16
6.   monkeypants
On the grand scheme it probably makes little difference, but is there any reason why Melky should be starting tonight over Gardner? I mean any reason: a small sample size split, a lefty-righty match-up, etc.? Just so I can pretend that there is some plan or rationale in place.
2008-07-03 15:10:34
7.   cult of basebaal
6 well, duh. lester throws left handed, gardner bats left handed. if gardner faced lester, it would be bad and stuff ... probably like "crossing the streams" bad. melky is obviously playing to spare us from destruction! kneel before your girardian overlord!
2008-07-03 15:14:25
8.   monkeypants
4 I think that the impact the opposing running game, even with Posada's poor throwing, is rather exaggerated. That said, I repeat my suggestion that the Yankees consider some sort of deal for a league average (or slightly below) catcher, push Posada to full-time DH, and DF one of the M and M boys.

I am stuck watching the Blue Jays a lot. They have two pretty good starting catchers. I wonder what it would take to pry one of them away, especially Greg Zaun, who is 37 and making $3.7 million.

2008-07-03 15:14:52
9.   Cliff Corcoran
7 Cripes, I hope that's not the reason. Look at their splits!
2008-07-03 15:15:07
10.   monkeypants
7 Phew, thanks.
2008-07-03 15:18:29
11.   Zack
9 I do find it particularly troubling that the manager that supposedly is better prepared than anyone and understands statistics and all that seems to incredibly blind to the fact that Melky is beyond awful against lefties...
2008-07-03 15:45:58
12.   RIYank
4 Ellsbury isn't likely to spend much time on the bases. His OBP has been terrible recently. He got three walks in June.
2008-07-03 15:50:15
13.   OldYanksFan
From Jeff Passan:
Oakland – low-revenue Oakland, immortalized in the book "Moneyball," about winning with a scrimp-and-save payroll – signed a 16-year-old named Michel Inoa on Wednesday. Along with his $4.25 million bonus, Inoa got an Anglicized name, Michael, and a ticket to the Dominican Summer League, where he can add weight to his lithe 6-foot-7 frame, throw his 94-mph fastball, unleash his polished breaking ball and work on his changeup.

Anyone think the Yankees were going after this guy? I mean does $2-3m extra in a signing bonus THAT much money to the Yankees???

2008-07-03 15:53:12
14.   RIYank
13 We seem to have gotten scooped, as it were, by the A's this year. A big reason Inoa signed with Oakland is the success they've had developing young pitchers -- he turned down more money from other clubs.
Cashman seems to have focused on position players. There's some discussion at River Ave Blues.
2008-07-03 15:56:47
15.   Shaun P
14 Nothing wrong with that. Though you can never have enough pitching, cripes but the Yanks need some (big) bats in the system. Badly.
2008-07-03 16:03:04
16.   weeping for brunnhilde
YES just showed Alex and Ortiz hugging.

I don't want to say them embracing; I want to see them getting into off-field brawls for looking at each other funny.

It's a good thing Billy Martin's not around to see this.

2008-07-03 16:07:36
17.   williamnyy23
With Posada behind the plate, you just know that Ellsbury, Crisp and Lugo will be running at every opportunity. Luckily, Andy is on the mound to counteract that a bit, but still, if they can get on base, it could be a long day for Jorge.
2008-07-03 16:10:15
18.   monkeypants
17 see 4
2008-07-03 16:10:49
19.   RIYank
Can't steal first.
2008-07-03 16:11:45
20.   RIYank
17 18 See 12 .
2008-07-03 16:12:59
21.   OldYanksFan
I get 4 games in a row on TV. YIPPIE!
Man on first.
Not enough time to steal.
Let's go Andy!
2008-07-03 16:13:01
22.   monkeypants
20 18 17 12 see 8 (in part).

This is kinda fun.

2008-07-03 16:13:18
23.   RIYank
Whereas, Pedroia is red hot. Did I mention that?
And Drew's kind of scary, too.
2008-07-03 16:13:47
24.   williamnyy23
Then again, maybe SBs wont play such a big role afterall.
2008-07-03 16:15:07
25.   weeping for brunnhilde


2008-07-03 16:15:09
26.   OldYanksFan
2008-07-03 16:15:12
27.   monkeypants
OK, no defending my man Jeter on that one.
2008-07-03 16:15:46
28.   RIYank
Cripes. That woulda shoulda ended the inning, too.
2008-07-03 16:15:59
29.   williamnyy23
Jeter has been so sub-par on both ends this year. It's really an amazing fall from grace.
2008-07-03 16:17:06
30.   RIYank
Wow, defensive weakness rears its ugly head again!
2008-07-03 16:17:06
31.   monkeypants
Meanwhile Damon rolls the ball home.
2008-07-03 16:17:37
32.   williamnyy23
The Yankees are picking up right where they left off.
2008-07-03 16:18:28
33.   RIYank
Those runs go down as 'earned'. Go figure.
2008-07-03 16:18:40
34.   cult of basebaal
thanks again jeter.
2008-07-03 16:18:52
35.   williamnyy23
A trip to Yankee Stadium is sort of becoming a tonic to struggling teams not from Seattle.
2008-07-03 16:19:22
36.   weeping for brunnhilde
Kay just said the runs are unearned, but if you can't assume the dp, they should both be earned, no?

The error only (technically) advanced Ramirez to second, no?

2008-07-03 16:19:51
37.   monkeypants
29 A bit strong, don't you think? He was a leading vote getter for the's not like he's been banished from the kingdom or anything.
2008-07-03 16:20:10
38.   Eirias
Is that first appearance of "gritty" tonight? If so, 1.
2008-07-03 16:20:46
39.   RIYank
36 Exactly. Also, no error by Damon for the cruddy throw. They're earned.
2008-07-03 16:20:53
40.   monkeypants
36 The error let the first run score from second. It also allowed Manny to advance to second base, whence he scored on the single. So, both runs are unearned.
2008-07-03 16:21:18
41.   williamnyy23
37 What's strong about it? He has been a very poor fielder and an average hitter at best. I'd call that subpar, regardless of how many votes he has gotten for the ASG. Not sure how is vote total factors in anyway.
2008-07-03 16:21:47
42.   weeping for brunnhilde
31 I know this is going to sound crazy, and I'm sure it's not true, but damn, it feels like I could throw better than that!
2008-07-03 16:22:17
43.   OldYanksFan
31 That was Manny running. We know JD can'r throw. Why doesn't Jeter take that throw?
2008-07-03 16:22:42
44.   OldYanksFan
33 Can't assume a DP.
2008-07-03 16:22:49
45.   monkeypants
40 However, the first run "would have scored" on the subsequent single, so would it be retroactively earned?

In any case, Manny scoring is certainly an unearned run.

2008-07-03 16:22:57
46.   williamnyy23
42 What's worse is that Damon's throw wasnt even the worst of the inning.
2008-07-03 16:23:26
47.   RIYank
Hm, now I think one of them is earned and the other unearned. That's what Gameday says, and that's what Joe Castiglione just said.
2008-07-03 16:24:42
48.   monkeypants
41 I was poking fun at your somewhat improper use of the term "fall from grace." While his performance has been poor, there is little evidence that he has fallen from grace (that is, a loss of status o respect or prestige--he is not booed, etc.).
2008-07-03 16:25:29
49.   Eirias
No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout. No Groundout.
2008-07-03 16:25:35
50.   OldYanksFan
40 The first run is earned because even on 3rd, he would have scored on the single. Manny being on second might be unearned. ESPN has Pettitte withy 1 ER.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-07-03 16:25:39
51.   williamnyy23
48 Ah...well, he was always a bit overrated anyway, so he has further to fall. Besides, there has been somewhat of a fall in more "informed" circles.
2008-07-03 16:25:51
52.   monkeypants
47 see 45 .

; )

2008-07-03 16:27:11
53.   RIYank
52 See 134 .
2008-07-03 16:27:30
54.   OldYanksFan
If we lose, it's on the Defense.
Wow... looked like strike 3 to me. Lucky.
2008-07-03 16:27:42
55.   williamnyy23
That pitch looked was cloooose.
2008-07-03 16:27:46
56.   RIYank
Woooo, got lucky. That was a strike. (Thus depriving Damon of a SB.)
2008-07-03 16:28:39
57.   monkeypants
53 Ha-ha-ha! Brilliant!

54 Slow down, chief, I wouldn't pin tonight's inevitable loss on the defense just yet.

2008-07-03 16:28:41
58.   RIYank
Abreu with RISP: .457. Best in MLB.
2008-07-03 16:28:55
59.   williamnyy23
54 Could you imagine if Robbie and Melky weren't so good on defense?
2008-07-03 16:29:15
60.   OldYanksFan
The Boston BP is VERY tired. I hope EVERYONE has been told to work the count. We need Lester out after 5 or 6.
2008-07-03 16:29:43
61.   RIYank
The loss is on Farnsworth.
2008-07-03 16:29:49
62.   monkeypants
55 Jeter is still in the ump's good graces!
2008-07-03 16:29:52
63.   cult of basebaal
alright, lemmiwinks, let's go!
2008-07-03 16:30:24
64.   williamnyy23
60 Abreu didn't get the memo.
2008-07-03 16:30:30
65.   RIYank
Whew! What happened? Bad play by Lugo, I guess.
2008-07-03 16:30:57
66.   monkeypants
Lucky twice this inning. What was Lugo thinking...oh, and Bobby was out anyway.
2008-07-03 16:31:13
67.   Eirias
Alright A-Rod, get on base so Giambi can repel the ball all the way out of the stadium.
2008-07-03 16:31:14
68.   williamnyy23
65 More like a bad call by the ump.
2008-07-03 16:31:16
69.   RIYank
64 Uh, he saw five pitches.
2008-07-03 16:31:50
70.   williamnyy23
Why does it seem Arod takes two strikes with a man on third and less than two outs?
2008-07-03 16:32:21
71.   williamnyy23
69 But swung at one low and about a foot off the plate.
2008-07-03 16:32:39
72.   cult of basebaal
eeek. looks like we got another break there. c'mon arod, make 'em pay!
2008-07-03 16:34:59
73.   cult of basebaal
2008-07-03 16:35:11
74.   williamnyy23
This first inning is everything that is wrong with the 2008 Yankees: they can't field the ball, nor can they drive in runners in scoring position. I think I've probably posted that statement about 30 times this season.
2008-07-03 16:35:24
75.   RIYank
Lester's high heat is really good.

Damn, you aren't supposed to get away with walking the first two guys.

2008-07-03 16:35:56
76.   weeping for brunnhilde
I'm so mad.


Come on, Alex, we need you.

Get it together, please.

And wear your headphones!

2008-07-03 16:36:02
77.   RIYank
74 See 58 .
2008-07-03 16:36:20
78.   williamnyy23
More par for the course: when was the last time the Yankees played a good game? I mean the kind of game that you would watch and say, you know what, this is a good team.
2008-07-03 16:36:44
79.   RIYank
76 I know. Where the hell are the home runs???????
2008-07-03 16:36:50
80.   williamnyy23
77 Not sure what the point of your reference is?
2008-07-03 16:37:20
81.   OldYanksFan
I'm sick.
2008-07-03 16:37:47
82.   OldYanksFan
Well... 24 pitches for Lester.
2008-07-03 16:38:11
83.   williamnyy23
58 Also, B-R has him hitting .299 with RISP.
2008-07-03 16:38:33
84.   Just fair
81 You can borrow my barfbag, but It's near full.
2008-07-03 16:38:45
85.   RIYank
80 Oh, well, you said the Yankees haven't been hitting with RISP. I was reminding you that Abreu is the best batter in baseball with RISP. Isn't that at least marginally relevant?
2008-07-03 16:39:29
86.   RIYank
Huh. Joe Castiglione just said he was hitting .457 with RISP.
2008-07-03 16:40:17
87.   williamnyy23
85 Not really because Abreu was only 1 of 3 to fail. Also, see 83 .
2008-07-03 16:41:50
88.   RIYank
Sorry, it wasn't Castiglione, it was O'Brien.
2008-07-03 16:41:58
89.   williamnyy23
I don't think that's the kind of throw you want o be advertising.
2008-07-03 16:42:39
90.   RIYank
I think I agree with that bunt. Dammit. (Lugo GIDP a lot.)
2008-07-03 16:43:56
91.   RIYank
Oh, sure, NOW they throw to second! Sheesh.
2008-07-03 16:44:15
92.   Just fair
So that's how you score after getting the 1st guys on base.
Seems so easy...
2008-07-03 16:44:29
93.   monkeypants
So if the Yankees score two runs, do we pin this loss on Pettitte? If they score no runs, do we pin it on the offense, or is still on the defense?
2008-07-03 16:44:39
94.   williamnyy23
What a bummer of a season.
2008-07-03 16:44:56
95.   quacks25
Abrue is hottong 457 with 2 Outs RISP... but 299 overall
2008-07-03 16:45:04
96.   Start Spreading the News
Sorry. I know it's early. But game over. This sucks. This years Yanks don't come back from deficits.
2008-07-03 16:45:30
97.   monkeypants
It is disheartening, however, when Sidney Ponson emerges as your staff stopper.
2008-07-03 16:46:08
98.   RIYank
Yep, that Ellsbury will drive you nuts on the base paths.
At least we're doing something right.
2008-07-03 16:46:17
99.   williamnyy23
93 I don't think we need to pin losses on anyone anymore because there has been and will be enough to go around. No one, except for maybe Mo, Joba and Damon, have consistently done their jobs.
2008-07-03 16:46:51
100.   RIYank
95 Ah, thanks!
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-07-03 16:47:13
101.   monkeypants
I'm happy that the runner was picked off, but I'm watching the game on TV: how is that not a balk? Did Pettitte step off the rubber and I missed it?
2008-07-03 16:47:34
102.   RIYank
93 There has to be a way to pin it on Girardi.
2008-07-03 16:48:09
103.   williamnyy23
99 And that includes Girardi, Cashman and my scapegoat for the season, Bobby Meacham (sorry, I can't let that Wang injury drop).
2008-07-03 16:48:14
104.   weeping for brunnhilde
93 Lay off Andy, he's doing all right.
2008-07-03 16:48:30
105.   RIYank
101 Sure, he stepped off the rubber. You don't even have to look, you know he did. It's like asking whether Eckstein ran out the fly ball.
2008-07-03 16:48:51
106.   Emma Span
I've spent the better part of two innings trying to come up with a cutting enough insult to describe Pedroia's current facial hair, and yet words still fail me.
2008-07-03 16:48:56
107.   weeping for brunnhilde
101 I was wondering the same thing.
2008-07-03 16:49:21
108.   RIYank
It's true, Andy isn't pitching a bad game. Not his best, but pretty good. Bad defense and a little bad luck.
2008-07-03 16:50:11
109.   williamnyy23
104 Alright? Two innings, five hits and a walk of Varitek, the Red Sox version of Melky?
2008-07-03 16:50:24
110.   weeping for brunnhilde
93 And not that this game is over or anything, but so far, after Derek, obviously, it's on Alex.

You simply can't strike out in that spot, much less by going so far out of the zone.

2008-07-03 16:50:41
111.   monkeypants
99 103 I was playing around with 54 , but you probably knew that.
2008-07-03 16:51:00
112.   RIYank
Six batters and we've put one ball into play!
2008-07-03 16:52:29
113.   RIYank
Yow, nice shot. There's a ball in play. Good try, Rob.
2008-07-03 16:52:44
114.   monkeypants
Michael Kay got just a little excited there.
2008-07-03 16:52:49
115.   williamnyy23
111 Yes, but it raises a great point. If you play the blame game, you realize that the Yankees always seem to have a lot of great candidates. In this one alone, you could paint a bullseye on Jeter, Arod and Pettitte...and we've only played 1+ innings.
2008-07-03 16:53:29
116.   RIYank
106 Pizzle rot?
2008-07-03 16:55:12
117.   williamnyy23
Instead of Pedroia's facial hair, how about a way to describe this offense?
2008-07-03 16:55:41
118.   RIYank
Lester is really pitching well.
Uh, I mean, our batters are lazy and planless. I always get those two things confused.
2008-07-03 16:55:59
119.   Emma Span
116 Heh.

It sort of looks like he started shaving for the first time in three weeks and then was suddenly, viciously attacked by several ferrets and had to run for it. That's about as close as I can come.

2008-07-03 16:56:33
120.   weeping for brunnhilde
109 He's not pitching a bad game.

They're hitting the ball well.

He's making decent pitches.

2008-07-03 16:56:40
121.   monkeypants
115 Indeed. That's why I always argue when certain posters blame specific players for losses ('Matsui's misplay led directly to 12 runs all by itself!!!"), or identify "turning points" in the early innings where games are supposedly lost. Losses tend to be team efforts unfolding over many innings.
2008-07-03 16:56:50
122.   williamnyy23
118 Lester does look good, but we've seen the Yankees be dominated by the most mediocre of pitchers, that it's hard to tell.
2008-07-03 16:58:04
123.   williamnyy23
120 He left a two strike pitch up to Pedroia; hung one to Lowell and walked Varitek on 4 pitches. I am sorry, but I disagree. Pettitte is not pitching a good ball game.
2008-07-03 16:58:48
124.   williamnyy23
121 Not always...sometimes, one player can be a goat. Unfortunately, this team seems to have a whole herd of them.
2008-07-03 17:00:23
125.   RIYank
121 But watching baseball -- a game or even a season -- demands a narrative. It doesn't really make sense from a scientific perspective, but it's irresistible.
2008-07-03 17:01:19
126.   RIYank
Come on, Andy, no more gifts! Yipes. Now he's definitely not having a decent game.
2008-07-03 17:01:57
127.   weeping for brunnhilde
109 If these guys score, then you can get on Andy.
2008-07-03 17:02:05
128.   monkeypants
125 You what Sterling says: you just can't predict baseball.
2008-07-03 17:03:31
129.   monkeypants
That Andy did not air mail that throw into CF was refreshing.
2008-07-03 17:04:22
130.   weeping for brunnhilde
123 "Good?"

Who said anything about good?

I said "all right."

As in "decent."

As in, this game's not on him.

2008-07-03 17:06:14
131.   williamnyy23
130 To be more clear, I don't think Pettitte has been decent or all right through the first three innings. Four runs, five hits and three walks is kind of bad.
2008-07-03 17:06:17
132.   cult of basebaal
124 mmmmm ... birria! i might just have to stop by Chivo Feliz for dinner after the game.
2008-07-03 17:06:24
133.   monkeypants
Ah, I see...Girardi's head games work on Melky.
2008-07-03 17:06:44
134.   williamnyy23
One AB too late Melky.
2008-07-03 17:07:01
135.   OldYanksFan
Andy is not pitching great, but it should be 2-0, the 2 runs scored on a very lucky bloop.

Andy is a professional. But if this game has already made most of us sick to our stomaches, I wonder how it effects Andy?

No one play (usually) loses a game, but it can be a catalyst. Certain events have a greater emotional impact then othera. Having Jete's blow an EASY plan in the FIRST inning against Boston is VERY depressing.

2-0 we are still easily in the game. 4-0 is a much tougher sell.

2008-07-03 17:07:52
136.   Eirias
I hate Jeter a little bit right now.
2008-07-03 17:07:59
137.   weeping for brunnhilde
2008-07-03 17:08:03
138.   OldYanksFan
It's almost like Jeter's cursed.
2008-07-03 17:09:09
139.   williamnyy23
135 Lucky bloops only hurt you when you allow poor hitters like Crisp and Varitek to reach base.

I guess Jeter can no longer bring himself to run down the line anymore? I guess the intangibles are out the door too?

2008-07-03 17:09:37
140.   weeping for brunnhilde
131 They're hardly banging the ball all over the yard, is my point.
2008-07-03 17:10:16
141.   monkeypants
135 I'd like to think that professional athletes are less prone to depression than fans in response to bad plays. I mean, the Sox certainly didn't crumple when Lugo made the poor decision to run to 2B rather than toss the ball. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong.
2008-07-03 17:10:57
142.   williamnyy23
Whether it's Girardi or someone else, dealing with Jeter is going to be the biggest challenge facing a Yankee manager. My fear is that the Yankees will become like the Orioles when Ripken entered his long decline phase.
2008-07-03 17:12:06
143.   williamnyy23
Another 3-1 count leads to a room service fastball to a weak hitter. It might not be a HR derby, but Pettitte is pitching poorly. His location has been terrible.
2008-07-03 17:14:26
144.   monkeypants
142 Maybe you're right. But for no I will hold off on the doom and gloom decline phase talk. One bad season, at least partly attributable to injury, does not a decline phase make.
2008-07-03 17:16:16
145.   williamnyy23
144 I hope you're right, but my eyes seem to detect a noticeable decline in Jeter's physical attributes. Because Jeter is not a reknowned workout fiend, my fear is he will follow the normal decline path of players at his position.
2008-07-03 17:16:34
146.   Just fair
5 game losing streak. No problem. Start a series off 5-0. UGH!
2008-07-03 17:17:26
147.   Start Spreading the News
5=0. Sad to say it. But the Red Sox are playing good baseball: capitalize on opponent mistakes and make productive outs.
2008-07-03 17:17:51
148.   monkeypants
145 OK, but a "normal" decline phase is not a Roberto Alomar like collapse. I'll take normal decline. For that matter, I'll take a Wade Boggs decline, with three pretty good seasons following his age 34 96 OPS+ season.
2008-07-03 17:18:24
149.   Start Spreading the News
And how many pitches did the yanks see last inning? 4? Way to work the count.
2008-07-03 17:19:35
150.   monkeypants
147 If Abreu or Cano swing at a pitch three feet out of the zone, we complain. If Varitek does it, it's good baseball and a productive out. Winning sure makes everything look better.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-07-03 17:19:44
151.   williamnyy23
146 Also, the Red Sox just lost three to a team playing very well. The Yankees aren't playing well, and really haven't played well all season. If you remove the 9 games against the majors worst two teams (which I know you can't do), the Yankees are 36-40. While those games count, the Yankees wont be playing teams as bad again, so that 36-40 record seems very relevant to me.
2008-07-03 17:20:05
152.   weeping for brunnhilde
141 Given the intensity of actually playing, adrenaline and whatnot, couldn't they be more prone to mental anguish than the fans?

Not all of them or anything, because management of emotions is part of the job, but there must be some role for emotional buffeting.

2008-07-03 17:20:57
153.   williamnyy23
148 But a normal decline phase is going to give you a SS who hits below the league average while playing poor to terrible defense. That's kind of a liability.
2008-07-03 17:22:00
154.   cult of basebaal
i call a "meaningless" homerun from arod right here.
2008-07-03 17:22:21
155.   cult of basebaal
154 stupid delay!
2008-07-03 17:22:48
156.   williamnyy23
150 It's all about game situations...Varitek is trying to tack on another run against a team that is dead in the water. The Yankees are trying to rally from a deficit by hopefully getting the starter out early. Even though the approaches are the same, their appropriateness can be different.

The Yankees are now hacking away and that is not the right way to play it when you are down 5-0.

2008-07-03 17:22:59
157.   monkeypants
152 Possibly. But MLB players live with failure every game, and they understand how even the best players screw up because they themselves are prone to mistakes. I suspect--again, no proof--that they are far more aware of the difficulty of the game than we can imagine, and are thus (possibly) more forgiving of teammates transgressions.
2008-07-03 17:23:45
158.   weeping for brunnhilde
Bang-up inning, Team!
2008-07-03 17:23:54
159.   williamnyy23
149 8 pitches that inning. See, they are working twice as hard. Happy?
2008-07-03 17:24:44
160.   monkeypants
153 A SS hitting below league average is still very likely to hit better than an average SS. The terrible defense will, of course, takes its toll and sooner or later the balance will tip. But even now Jeter is hitting better than most of the players at his position.
2008-07-03 17:25:12
161.   weeping for brunnhilde
157 Oh, I'll bet they're forgiving, but that doesn't mean they don't have visceral emotional responses to bad luck, bad play and the like.
2008-07-03 17:26:08
162.   OldYanksFan
153 What will really be hell is after Jeter's contract is up. If his current play is a trend, he will be out of baseball.
2008-07-03 17:26:33
163.   Dimelo
142 I agree and have been saying that to my friends and brother for a while now. Didn't the O's have a good SS prospect in the minors and Ripken didn't want to move to 3rd? I thought they wanted to move him for some time and he didn't want to move. I always thought Ripken was a baby, I was always mad that he got the Iron Man streak over Gehrig. Gehrig took so much pride in playing and he was afraid of what happened to Wally Pipp, Ripken did it for selfish reasons.

Gehrig remains one of the classiest men to ever wear the Yankee uniform, IMHO. He's my favorite Yankee because of his quiet and low-key personality.

I am always afraid that Jeter might start feeling entitled to be the Yankee SS. I truly hope that's not the case.

2008-07-03 17:26:58
164.   williamnyy23
160 He'll be hitting better than the average SS, but I don't think that comes close to mitigating against his awful defense. What makes things worse is that because of his stature, the manager may not be able to move him down in the lineup or bench him.
2008-07-03 17:27:27
165.   Start Spreading the News
147 It's not just a matter of what the score is. It is a matter of context. It is a productive out when Varitek gets Crisp to third, ready for a sac fly which was Lugo's next play --also a productive out.

Note: both team's centerfielders got on base with a single. Only one team scored: on a stolen base and two outs. That is making something out of nothing.

Our team however, got a fly ball and a GIDP. Sure, winning makes things look better. But so does good baseball.

2008-07-03 17:28:19
166.   williamnyy23
Abreu doing is part to deflect the blame from Andy.
2008-07-03 17:28:30
167.   Start Spreading the News
I meant 150
2008-07-03 17:28:48
168.   OldYanksFan
Another defensive gap.
2008-07-03 17:30:08
169.   williamnyy23
Melky misses the cut off. I don't like to question effort, but this team couldn't look more disinterested.
2008-07-03 17:31:11
170.   OldYanksFan
Tomorrow is Beckett v. Rasner. This is, or was, an important game to win.

Another 'earned' run because of poor defense.

2008-07-03 17:31:34
171.   williamnyy23
I think this organization either has to do something dramatic or aggressively turn the page to 2009.
2008-07-03 17:32:15
172.   Dimelo
169 That's real easy to say when the team is down 6 - 0, Pettite is walking the entire team, the Red Sox are stealing and moving runners over, but yea....I can see them looking disinterested by missing the cut-off guy.
2008-07-03 17:33:02
173.   williamnyy23
170 I have tickets to that fiasco. Seemed like a good idea at the time I bought them.

I am close to the mindset that there are no big games for the Yankees because I haven't seen them play well enough to suggest they will ever make a serious run.

2008-07-03 17:33:06
174.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
ugh..just logging on and it's 6-0? they have ONE hit??? maybe an early friday Guinness is on the menu again..i wish i could accept losing to the Sox like a normal, well-adjusted person, but I just can't...
2008-07-03 17:33:22
175.   randym77
Well, I think we can safely say Pettitte is not having a good night.
2008-07-03 17:34:38
176.   weeping for brunnhilde
Andy's pitching a terrible game.
2008-07-03 17:34:52
177.   Start Spreading the News
159 Yes, actually I am. Some pointed out that the Red Sox bullpen is tired. I don't know if it is true. Assuming it is, wouldn't taking as many pitches as possible be a good thing?

Since the 2nd inning, only one Yankee has seen more than three pitches. I know they are trailing and trying to hack. But why change the approach considering how well they did against him in the 1st?

2008-07-03 17:35:01
178.   williamnyy23
174 I have to admit that losing to the Red Sox isn't bothering me. The abject failure of this team defies opponents.
2008-07-03 17:36:04
179.   Dimelo
It's Call of Duty 4 TIME!!!!! Earlier than I thought.
2008-07-03 17:36:28
180.   Start Spreading the News
I am out -- got things to do and places to be. Enjoy the game. I hope the yanks come back.
2008-07-03 17:36:48
181.   williamnyy23
177 I agree whole heartedly. This Yankee team has had a tendency to cut and slash once they get behind. I know that I no longer have much confidence that they can come back from early deficits, so how could I blame them if they don't themselves.
2008-07-03 17:37:26
182.   randym77
I hate to lose to the Sox. I didn't mind losing to the Reds, or the Bucs, or even the Mets. But man, I hate losing to the Sox.
2008-07-03 17:37:34
183.   monkeypants
2008-07-03 17:39:00
184.   williamnyy23
We've reached the stage in this game where I go on and on about how mediocre this team is and lament about how they aren't good enought to make the post season. So, instead of bring everyone down, I think I'll watch the rest of the game in silent depression and try to think of a way to avoid going to the game tomorrow.
2008-07-03 17:40:22
185.   Dimelo
182 I'd take losing to the Red Sox 18/19 times/year if the Yanks won all their other games. A lost sucks period.

Ever since the Sux won, it doesn't matter as much to me. It's kind of made me focus just on the Yanks and that's it, everything else was a lot of noise. Bottom line, I just care about the Yanks.

2008-07-03 17:41:35
186.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
184 Williamnyy23, good luck! I will distract myself but catching up on some desk work before heading out for the day's investigations...we still got 5 innings though, let's up they wake up!
2008-07-03 17:43:15
187.   Dimelo
Does Madonna have a late concert today? Seems like the Yanks are in a rush to get somewhere.
2008-07-03 17:49:10
188.   monkeypants
184 Or, we can readjust our expectations for the season, which may allow us to discuss aspects of the team (and season) with greater happiness. I can't remember how long you have been a fan, but I lived through some pretty awful teams in the past. Yet I still found it enjoyable to follow the exploits of Mattingly, or to discuss in game strategy, or think about prospects or trades.
2008-07-03 17:50:01
189.   Eirias
This is just an unpleasant game. I just cannot see us winning this and I feel bad for thinking that.
2008-07-03 17:54:58
190.   RIYank
Hi, I'm back!

Now the comeback can begin!

2008-07-03 17:57:22
191.   Yankees Brasil
Just got home. How bad has it been so far?
2008-07-03 17:58:19
192.   RIYank
191 Let's just say William has... had a lot to say this evening.
2008-07-03 17:58:32
193.   randym77
Wow. I think they booed Jeter.
2008-07-03 18:00:58
194.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
193 I have no problem with booing Jeter..for $19million he needs to step it up
2008-07-03 18:01:37
195.   RIYank
Usually when we're losing big-time, I check to see how the Red Sox are doing, and a good proportion of the time I can feel better because they're losing too.
2008-07-03 18:02:11
196.   Yankees Brasil
192 It's pretty bad then. And with tomorrow's sure loss, things are not looking good.
2008-07-03 18:03:40
197.   RIYank
Why is tomorrow a sure loss again?
2008-07-03 18:03:43
198.   OldYanksFan
We made Lester throw 24 pitches in inning #1. 51 in the FIVE innings since. In terms of the future, we will HAVE to spend BIG FA dollars to get 2 impact bats. I think at this point we MUST target Tex. We have very few hitting studs on the farm ready for 2009 and 2010.
2008-07-03 18:06:47
199.   cult of basebaal
191 so bad that william's been driven to miserable silence.

at least giese is pitching well again tonite ...

2008-07-03 18:07:48
200.   monkeypants
"we will HAVE to spend BIG FA dollars to get 2 impact bats."

" I think at this point we MUST target Tex."

Steady man, this kind of thinking has led to some very, very bad deals in the past.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-07-03 18:10:02
201.   RIYank
Getting Teixeira doesn't seem like a good idea to me. For the short run, he's not better than Giambi, and in the long run I have no confidence that he'll maintain his studliness.
2008-07-03 18:10:47
202.   RIYank
Wow, I guess it took me more than two minutes to type that. Didn't seem like it.
2008-07-03 18:11:46
203.   monkeypants
201 In the spirit of declaring decline phase possibly prematurely, his numbers are down this season from last. He is still studly, but at age 28, how much can be expected in the future. And you know he is going to command a kooky 6 or 7 year deal.
2008-07-03 18:11:59
204.   randym77
I think if Cashman does something rash on the trade front, it will be for pitching. Bedard, maybe?

Too bad Alan Horne has been shut down. He was supposedly the guy they were dangling as trade bait. Or calling up, if they couldn't trade him.

2008-07-03 18:15:20
205.   RIYank
Oh, we're talking about trading now. I thought we were talking about the off-season.

God, no Bedard, please.

2008-07-03 18:15:56
206.   RIYank
Lester's going to throw a CG, isn't he?
2008-07-03 18:16:00
207.   monkeypants
204 I repeat my call from previous threads: he should aim for a replacement level (or slightly below) catcher, then move Posada to full time DH for the season. I have a sneaky suspicion that Matsui is done for a long time. Meanwhile, some pitching help will return, albeit in the form of IPK.
2008-07-03 18:17:05
208.   Yankees Brasil
201 I agree. I don't think Tex is the answer. I just don't know if there's an answer out there in the FA market.
2008-07-03 18:17:49
209.   monkeypants
Who was the jouneyman Yankee last year who stood on second base thinking that he had a double, but the wall was caught? Posada may have just earned second place in that competition.
2008-07-03 18:18:38
210.   RIYank
Hm, I think Matsui will be back pretty soon. Also, you want Cashman to get a slightly below replacement level catcher? I thought we had one of those.
2008-07-03 18:20:04
211.   RIYank
Well, good for Dan Giese. Wouldn't it be strange if suddenly our middle relief was the best part of the team?
2008-07-03 18:20:30
212.   Dimelo
In other news, that Colombian rescue was f-ing awesome. Now that's a TEAM effort!!!! Poor lady sure was struggling, I feel genuinely bad for her and glad she was rescued. Probably the best non sports story I've read all year

If only they can stick Heather Mills in a situation like that, she finds it so tough to live on 48 million dollars. I think she should have been awarded a nice 6 year vacation stay with The FARC!!!

Why has my sympathy run out for Jon Lester? Drugs sure make your mind go all over the place.

Man, Michael Kay is f-ing annoying. Can the FARC kidnap Michael Kay?

2008-07-03 18:20:47
213.   randym77
207 I don't think IPK is pitching help. He may be one day, but he's not going to be help this season.
2008-07-03 18:21:01
214.   monkeypants
210 I thought Pete Abe reported that Matsui was not rehabbing well.

As for catcher, oops I meant league average or below. In other words, hope to start an average C behind the plate, move Posada to DH, move Molina to the bench, and move Moeeler to the away place.

2008-07-03 18:22:08
215.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
212 wonderfully random post..some humor has helped, thank you.

funny, Kay isn't using the term "Generation Tres" anymore...

2008-07-03 18:22:40
216.   monkeypants
213 Why? He helped last season. I think he has as much chance of getting his act together and helping the team this year as some trash heap signing or goofy trade will.
2008-07-03 18:23:54
217.   RIYank
Oh, league average. Okay.
Our farm system catching prospects aren't doing well. I mean, they're very young so no big deal.
2008-07-03 18:24:08
218.   OldYanksFan
200 What to you plan for our offense in 2010 when Abreu, JD, Matsui and Giambi are gone and Jeter and Po are 2 years older. ARod and Cano are our only decent bats. Next year, Abreu is probably goine and maybe Giambi. JD and Mats MIGHT be good in 2009, but....

We have a lot of arms in the franchise. But where are the bats. AJax is the only one really ready for 2010.

So, where is our offense coming from?

2008-07-03 18:27:49
219.   Dimelo guys are amazing, it's not even fourth of July two thousand and eight and you guys are thinking of 2010. I don't think any team in the majors knows where their offense is going to come from in 2010.
2008-07-03 18:28:32
220.   RIYank
218 We have an option on Giambi for next year. And after that, if he's still in one piece, I doubt other teams would outbid Cashman for him.
I'm not opposed to paying for bats! But Teixeira isn't the answer.
2008-07-03 18:29:30
221.   monkeypants
218 i don't know, but that's a l-o-o-o-o-n-g ays off in modern sports with free agency, trades, international signings, etc. The worst thing perhaps would be to get fixated on one player (we NEED Randy Johnson, er, I mean Teixera) and get tied into a very bad, very long, very overpriced deal. Listening to everyone bitch and moan in the last couple years about the deals to Bernie and Giambi, and to some degree Matsui and Damon--how they were too long and hamstrung the team--one would think that some lessons would have been learned.
2008-07-03 18:29:32
222.   OldYanksFan
219 TB does. Besides, you want to concentrate on 2008?
2008-07-03 18:30:01
223.   OldYanksFan
219 Also, I believe this applies to 2009.
2008-07-03 18:30:40
224.   monkeypants
221 ... long ways off...

But I see 220 and 219 said the same thing more succinctly.

2008-07-03 18:31:31
225.   RIYank
222 Yeah, I was going to say Tampa Bay. Also maybe Texas.
2008-07-03 18:31:51
226.   randym77
213 I think last year was a fluke. Or beginner's luck. This year, he's struggled. They've figured him out, and he hasn't adjusted in turn. Maybe he will eventually, but the Yanks can't afford to wait and see any more. Not if they want to salvage this year. Which I think they do.

The Yankees made it clear that Kennedy was demoted for ineffectiveness, so I don't think they're going to depend on him as pitching help.

Rumor is that Cashman is going after an established left-handed pitcher. Someone like Bedard. (I think he seriously regrets not getting Santana.)

If he can't swing that, there might be a trash-heap signing. (Chacon?) Cashman probably has more confidence in his ability to find diamonds in the rough than we do. (I'm starting to think his lucking out with Chacon and Small was not a good thing in the long run.)

2008-07-03 18:33:12
227.   Just fair
Hey, Jeter. Atta boy. Way to turn the double play. Oh, wait...
2008-07-03 18:33:17
228.   RIYank
I've noticed something about LaTroy Hawkins. It's this: he's not good at pitching.
2008-07-03 18:34:14
229.   Dimelo
222 I'll put whatever money you have in the bank that 50% of the players Tampa has in their starting roster won't be there in 2010.

Look at the Red Sox from 2004 to 2007, only V-Tek, Ortiz and Manny remain.

Don't you think this is an exercise in futility and just meant to keep you angry?

Tomorrow is a new day and the Yanks will beat Beckett and then people here will be talking about winning the next 2, and taking 3 of 4.

2008-07-03 18:36:22
230.   monkeypants
226 This season will likely not be salvaged by signing one decent starter who will pitch in 15 games. If that is the "plan" to salvage the season, then write it off.

Seriously, these are dangerous times, when teams like the Yankees are tempted to make very bad trades or take on goofy contracts. Best to play cautiously now.

If anything, we should start to think about whom they should trade to contenders for prospects in return.

2008-07-03 18:36:24
231.   Dimelo
Man, Lowell sucks at turning those DP's.
2008-07-03 18:36:36
232.   OldYanksFan
The game has changed. So many teams are focusing on and signing their talented kids, that impact FAs are terribly overpriced and command longer contracts. This seems to be MLB life these days. We have been stocking up on pitchers for 3 years. We have few, if any, impact bats coming in the next 2 years. $75m+ is coming off the books. Doesn't it seem like the plan is to breed pitching and buy/trade for bats? Some of our pitchers are trading chips.

We know who many of the the FAs are in 2009 and 2010. We are losing MOST of our offense. You don't think Cashman is thinking about 2009 and 2010? And he might be thinking about that A LOT MORE in a few weeks if we continue to suck.

2008-07-03 18:37:28
233.   Just fair
229 Pass the dutchie on the left hand side.... : )
I'm with ya', but this game is rough.
2008-07-03 18:37:44
234.   monkeypants
Melky has been the whole offense today, whatever that means.
2008-07-03 18:38:20
235.   randym77
Someone put the fear of Gardner in Melky.
2008-07-03 18:38:24
236.   Dimelo
232 I think Cashman is thinking about what CRod is going to say in divorce court.
2008-07-03 18:40:11
237.   monkeypants
232 Will Cashman be the GM after this season?
2008-07-03 18:40:24
238.   RIYank

"So many teams are focusing on and signing their talented kids, that impact FAs are terribly overpriced and command longer contracts."

The demand for FAs is down so much that the price of them is skyrocketing???

2008-07-03 18:41:05
239.   randym77
230 I agree. I would just write this season off as a rebuilding year.

But the Yankees aren't going to do that.

2008-07-03 18:41:22
240.   Just fair
The chips were so stacked on the Yanks' side for winning this game it makes my head spin. Lester threw a major wrench into the first game of this series. Bah Humbug and Double Bollocks.
2008-07-03 18:41:33
241.   Dimelo
233 Pass, puff and pass!
2008-07-03 18:42:10
242.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
233 "54-46, That's my number.."

why are people so high on Texiera??

2008-07-03 18:42:16
243.   RIYank
About the Rays:

Pena, Crawford, Iwamura, Longoria, those guys are likely to be with the Rays in 2010. Baldelli could be an impact bat, if he ever gets healthy. They might trade Pena in a salary dump if the team isn't good, but I bet it will be.

2008-07-03 18:42:27
244.   monkeypants
Who will be the eighth inning guy next season??!!!??!?
2008-07-03 18:43:24
245.   nick
man, is this season hard to figure--if you'd told me Robbie and Melky would have two hits each tonight, I'd have felt pretty good about our chances....
2008-07-03 18:44:12
246.   Dimelo
242 I'm not high on Teixera, I'm high on something else. Is Teixera like Sour Deez? Some new shit I haven't tried?
2008-07-03 18:45:35
247.   RIYank
245 And what if I'd added that Giese would pitch lights-out? (And maybe Robertson, too, although I guess Robertson + Giese might have tipped you off that Andy had some trouble...)
2008-07-03 18:46:02
248.   Dimelo
Isn't Crawford going to be a FA by then? Isn't Iwamura going to be a FA by then? Baldelli's bones are rotting faster than a banana on a hot summer day.
2008-07-03 18:47:00
249.   nick
as for Tex, I say "NO"--signing B+/A- guys is exactly the wrong strategy because a little decline leaves you screwed--you want to sign guys like Reggie and Giambi, the absolute premium guys, so you get a situation like a declining but still damn useful 'Stache.

who's the best free agent available, period, without thinking of our needs?

2008-07-03 18:47:56
250.   RIYank
248 No, there are club options on both of them for 2010.
I can't quite say good-bye to Rocco. He's from Rhode Island, you know.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-07-03 18:48:19
251.   Just fair
Barring a major comeback and the way the boys are swinging the bats, this game should clock in under 3 hours. So they've got that going for em'. Say something funny, HANK.
And here's to you, Mr. Roberstson.
2008-07-03 18:48:23
252.   monkeypants
239 OK, but then let's be clear what we are discussing: what we would do, what the Yankees will do?

If Cashman is adamant about salvaging the season by picking up some lefty starter, that's what he will do and end of discussion.

If you ask what I would do, that would involve riding the Sidny Pontoon until it sinks, and in the meanwhile rotate IPK back into the rotation There is also Karstens.

I also think that there is a greater chance to salvage the season by making one or two doable moves on the offense, rather than trading for pitching. I think that the team stands a better chance to improve by picking up a decent RH bat (probably one that can play the Shelley Duncan sort of OF position), or getting a decent to somewhat below average catcher. That said, the chances of salvage are slim, no doubt.

2008-07-03 18:53:32
253.   nick
Lester still in? no mop-up guy?

can I root for a nice, relatively unpainful, season-ending injury to the kid's arm?

2008-07-03 18:53:35
254.   Just fair
If Hughes, IPK, or Joba could do what Lester has done to the Yanks' tonight, we'd be a giddy bunch of folks. If Jeter turned that play in the 1st, it might be 0-0. If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. I hate if's.
2008-07-03 18:54:00
255.   RIYank
Best FA bats:
Adam Dunn
Milton Bradley
Manny Ramirez or Vlad G., club options

What do you think about this Bobby Abreu guy?

2008-07-03 18:54:19
256.   OldYanksFan
238 Demand is not down, but supply is. Teams like Detroit, the Cubs, Mets, maybe TB, and others are chasing a BIG FA in hopes it will make a difference.

5 years ago, when a high priced player became available, if was the Yankees and a few other teams. Now everyone is buying. Even KC and Seattle spent some serious money on FAs.

Paying big money for long contracts is very risky. Zito. Sori. JD Drew. Many others. It's no way to build a team, but necessary to augment it to become a contender (unless you get the #1 pick 10 years in a row).

The Yankees have NOT bitten then poison apple of expensive FAs in a while. But for the next 2 years, what choice do we have?

I'm not sold on Tex, but at least he is a good fielder and relatively young, as well as an excellent bat. I'm not sure who else is out there, but Cashman is gonna be like a teenage girl with a new credit card.

2008-07-03 18:54:56
257.   randym77
252 I thought I made it pretty clear what I was talking about. Since I said "if Cashman does something rash on the trade front, it will be for pitching." And I'm not Cashman, I promise. ;-)
2008-07-03 18:55:03
258.   RIYank
Hats off to Lester.
2008-07-03 18:55:05
259.   Dimelo
250 I like Baldelli too, but I think the Rays are going to be giving up on him pretty soon.

92 and 35 games the last two years is pretty bad.

A lot of crazy shit happens in baseball, or any sport for that matter, Crawford might not even be relevant by 2010. He can suffer a knee injury, hurt his shoulder, hand, etc.

2008-07-03 18:55:21
260.   Just fair
I read the other day Torre has the record for grounding into double plays in a game with 4. Yikes.
2008-07-03 18:57:23
261.   Dimelo
258 Jimmy hats on for the Jimmy Fund!!!
2008-07-03 18:57:28
262.   nick
A 105-pitch shutout, at home, from their young starter; their other young starting prospect twirls a no-hitter; meanwhile our young pitching prospects struggle, overthrow, walk guys, get hurt, struggle....

This, for a Yankee fan, is hell.

2008-07-03 18:57:44
263.   williamnyy23
188 I've been a full-time fan since about 1982, so I've definitely been through lean times. I am all for discussing the future of the team, and even more so, the glorious past, but that's kind of hard to do in the midst of another depressing game. As fun as baseball is for discussion, ultimately, it is the games that make it great.
2008-07-03 18:59:00
264.   Eirias
What kind of Yankees-Sox game only lasts 3 hours?
2008-07-03 18:59:19
265.   OldYanksFan
Best FA bats:
Adam Dunn - All bat, no glove, no speed
Milton Bradley - Talented. Would the Yankees bite on a head case?
Manny Ramirez - Getting old but still good, but he would be a disgrace to Pinstipes. Pass.
Vlad G - I think his health is catching up to him. Pass.
What do you think about this Bobby Abreu guy?
Still above average with the bat, below with the glove. I don't think he's available for a single year, and I wouldn't want any longer then that.
2008-07-03 19:00:22
266.   OldYanksFan
"it is the games that make it great"
Not tonight.
2008-07-03 19:01:17
267.   monkeypants
256 I would take a flyer on Giambi's option before I would lock on to Tex for six or seven years. Dunn gives you the same bat and age as Tex, but less glove. But I bet he costs a lot less.

Milton Bradley will be overpriced after slugging the last two years, but look at his last 5 or 6 years--at age 30 he could replace Abreu.

2008-07-03 19:01:48
268.   Dimelo
265 Is Fernando Tatis a FA after this year? I'd like him on the Yanks, if only we can replace the 'a' on his last name with an 'i'. If not, Pass!
2008-07-03 19:03:51
269.   monkeypants
265 But Dunn stands a better chance of being cheap and/or signed with a short contract. I could envision a DH/1B platoon-rotation of Posada, Matsui, and Dunn.
2008-07-03 19:04:04
270.   nick
255 Dunn or Tex, I'm worried about both--I think I'd go with whoever wanted fewer years--even a single year would sway the decision for me...
2008-07-03 19:04:22
271.   williamnyy23
260 Felix Milan singled in front of Torre on all 4 occasions, leading Torre to quip, "I couldn't have done it without Felix". Say what you will about Torre's strategy, he could definitely tell a story and deliver a one-liner.
2008-07-03 19:05:14
272.   williamnyy23
266 Exactly my point.
2008-07-03 19:05:38
273.   randym77
Jeter one hit, Cano and Cabrera two each, nobody else hit nuttin'. Except the showers.
2008-07-03 19:05:53
274.   RIYank
265 I'd take Dunn out of all those, for sure. I'd take Manny, too, but maybe not at the price he'd command.
2008-07-03 19:05:56
275.   monkeypants
263 I dig your jive, but you know what? for me, even a lousy Yankees season is better than the long off-season. We are very angry/depressed/frustrated this season in part because our expectations were very high. The sooner we readjust our expectations, the sooner we will start to find the season more pleasurable.
2008-07-03 19:07:30
276.   Dimelo
You guys watching the Muts game? You see the stache to the right of Jack Clark in the stands? Holy Jeebus!!!!
2008-07-03 19:08:16
277.   nick
275 yeah, but....simple pastoral pleasure in the game itself is, how to put it? not easily available to the Yankee fan of our historical era.

I blame society. Or, to be more specific, the last 5 years of the 20th century....

2008-07-03 19:11:10
278.   williamnyy23
275 Readjusting expectations isn't really a cure to me, but a symptom of the problem. For me at least, the joy of the baseball season is the daily anticipation of that night's game combined with enjoyment of the actual events. Once you accept that season is going nowhere, well, the anticipation and enjoyment of the current team go out the window. To be honest, I'd prefer an off season of watching Yankee classics, debating on the Banter what moves should be made and waiting for Opening Day tickets go on sale, than wondering how the Yankees will stumble through another game.
2008-07-03 19:12:12
279.   monkeypants
277 Maybe someday the fans of our historical era will look back on that half-decade and feel lucky that we were able to follow one the handful of greatest sports dynasties of the century, and follow them with unprecedented media coverage (radio, TV, and internet). And maybe we won't hold all future teams to that yardstick. I'd like to think that I, in any case, will not be like my father, who had a hard time accepting that anyone in pinstripes not named DiMaggio was not a bum.
2008-07-03 19:13:00
280.   monkeypants
278 FAir enough. We are different beasts.
2008-07-03 19:14:41
281.   Dimelo
278 Dood...take a chill pill. Tomorrow the sun will still come up, there will be an abundance of oxygen for us to breathe, and some poor soul will be trying to figure out if today will be the day they get a bite to eat. The Yanks lost, it's hardly the end of the world or the season. morbid!

2008-07-03 19:16:29
282.   RIYank
281 And, the fireworks, don't forget.
2008-07-03 19:18:14
283.   Dimelo

WOO-HOO!! Happy Independence Day!!!! Thank you Columbus!!!

2008-07-03 19:21:37
284.   nick
281 Dimelo, you're right of course, but once you start saying "baseball doesn't really matter", you're forced to follow that logic to its conclusion: imagine if we all spend the time and money we gave to MLB on solving social is meaningless AND very important to us, because we are not entirely logical beings....
2008-07-03 19:21:53
285.   williamnyy23
278 Dude...root for the Yankees as you see fit, but don't tell me how I should. I think it's fairly obvious to everyone that we are not discussing baseball in the context of world events. If you prefer to focus on the plight of the poor and hungry, a baseball blog might not be the best platform for discussion.

Sounds like Girardi is going nuts in the clubhouse. It probably shouldn't have taken this long.

2008-07-03 19:22:23
286.   nick
ps--horseshit ballgame; I'm out ;^)
2008-07-03 19:25:56
287.   JL25and3
Hey, I didn't think tonight's game was as bad as people are saying. I mean, aside from the pitching, the hitting, and the fielding, they looked OK.
2008-07-03 19:28:36
288.   Dimelo
284 Does that mean we should lose perspective? We lost game #86 on the NYY schedule.

I care and get bothered as much as the next man, but once the game is over I learn to accept the outcome and look forward to tomorrow's game. I love having a nice steak while the game is being played, the game offers a nice tranquil evening after a long day at work, riding the subway and dealing with a ton of malcontents.

285 Well maybe you shouldn't be so morbid. I'm not telling you how to root for anything.

2008-07-03 19:28:56
289.   OldYanksFan
287 Nah... they didn't run particularly well.
2008-07-03 19:28:59
290.   monkeypants
239 Dredging up this discussion...

According to PeteAbe tonight:

"UPDATE, 4:23 p.m.: Joe Girardi said that Hideki Matsui has not responded well to physical therapy on his knee and will not be able to take BP this weekend. It appears he will be out until after the break at the earliest. It's apparent that he will need surgery, if not now then after the season. "It's a possibility," said Girardi, which is his way of saying "Absolutely."...

Ian Kennedy is en route to Scranton."

Knowing the Yankees luck with injuries, and the way that they downplay them publicly, I have a feeling that Matsui is out a good long time.

IPK is not being moved up to Scranton for no reason, I suspect. Again, it will not surprise me to see him back in the bigs within a month.

2008-07-03 19:31:10
291.   RIYank
290 Right, I saw that. But it's Pete speculating, right? I mean, he's good at it, but it's still speculation.
2008-07-03 19:31:55
292.   RIYank
Oh, about IPK: that would be good. The last time Girardi commented, as I recall, he was not exactly excited about Ian, though.
2008-07-03 19:33:34
293.   JL25and3
292 Honestly, I'm not all that excited about him, either.
2008-07-03 19:36:30
294.   monkeypants
291 Yeah, he's speculating, though one has to do that with Yankees injuries. I guess we'll see. I figure there is no way he's back before the ASG. How long after is the big questions.
2008-07-03 19:37:22
295.   OldYanksFan
It is not my PS or No PS expectations, as much as seeing this team play so under their talent and ability. I started following the Yankees in 1965, so I rooted for some pretty bad, historically bad teams.

But they WERE bad teams. As Murcer, Munson and White came into their own, they actually made it to .500. A few more players and they actually contended for 1st place. But they played up to their talent, which was still limited.

This team, while a bit old, is still loaded with talent. 18 runs yesterday, and 5 hits today. Braindead with RISP. I watch the games and still can't believe it.

So my frustration is NOT not contending for the PS, but simply having them butcher the game. There is something wrong with the emotional state of this team. Something wrong with Jeter, as his problems go beyond poor batting and fielding.

Something is just wrong with this picture.

2008-07-03 19:41:35
296.   williamnyy23
288 Then enjoy your steak. If you think the season's problems are isolated in game 86, great for you. After watching Girardi's post game interview, I don't think he feels the same way. Maybe he could use a good juicy steak too.
2008-07-03 19:44:22
297.   randym77
Man, Girardi is pissed off.
2008-07-03 19:51:45
298.   monkeypants
296 297 My Canadian channel cut away from the YES feed right after the game. What's he doing?
2008-07-03 19:53:15
299.   Dimelo
296 Difference is this is his job, he gets paid to do a job and manage this team. Not to eat steak. Apparently you don't get the difference.
2008-07-03 19:58:58
300.   williamnyy23
298 He closed the doors of the clubhouse for 30 minutes and was angry and confrontational in the post game interview.

299 Maybe you don't care about the outcome of these games as much as I do? That's fine. Juicy steaks don't erase the bad feelings about a loss. I wish meat could make the Yankees be irrelevant. I don't begrudge your more laid back approach, so I suggest you don't worry about my more intense interest in the team. Deal?

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2008-07-03 20:00:10
301.   randym77
298 The clubhouse was closed for about half an hour after the game for a "team meeting." He refused to say what they talked about, and got quite testy with the reporter who kept asking him about it. He was clearly very angry. He said everything was bad, and if they didn't turn things around, they wouldn't make the post-season.
2008-07-03 20:01:50
302.   Shaun P
297 He's not the only one. Could they have possibly swung at more first pitches? Aye-aye-aye - where was the party tonight, 'cuz most of the lineup acted like they were going to be rudely late if they didn't hurry the damn game along.

Remy noticed it, too. When the opposing team's announcer wonders what the hell is going on, something is not right - and you'd think the hitters themselves might get a clue.


275 I think I've already adjusted my expectations. I expect a 3rd place finish and making for a better team next year by working in the kids in the bullpen, continuing Joba's development as a starter, and re-incorporating Hughes and IPK. I'm happy if that's all they do, or if they do better. Missing the playoffs for the first time since 1994 might do them all some good.

2008-07-03 20:02:29
303.   Dimelo
300 Deal. Thing is I ain't laid back watching these games or seeing them lose, I just can't give it a 2nd thought after it's over. Especially after a completely dominating performance by the Sox. If it were 3 - 2, I'll probably feel differently and be more pissed but the Yanks were shut-out and lost seven to zip. Not much to get mad about, IMHO.
2008-07-03 20:16:59
304.   monkeypants
302 The BP has been a pleasant surpise lately, with the marginalizing of Hawkins and (to some degree) Farnsworth, and some nice experimentation with Giese and Robertson. Hopefully some of the arms are not simply flukes and can be trusted next year. In fact, despite much of my disappointment in Girardi, his BP use has not been as bad as it could be.

I'm also pulling for Jeter to recover by the end of the season. My prediction is that he will end up somewhere in the .300/.360/.410 range, low by his standards but still not too bad. His average will creep up and you can count on 190 hits, but his walks and power will remain low. It's fun watching A-Rod smash the ball, but I really want to see Jeter reach some career milestones before it's all done.

2008-07-03 20:29:05
305.   Shaun P
304 Even though missing the playoffs sucks, etc etc etc, there are really cool things to look forward to. So yeah, I'd like to see Jeter get to 3000 hits, and move up the all-time runs scored list, and whatever other milestones he can reach.

I expect there to be more bullpen happiness in the future, between Britton, Bruney, JB Cox, Melancon, Ohlendorf, etc. I hope Cashman stays around because I really do expect to see a "Mo and the 'kids'" bullpen next year. There is no reason whatsoever for the Yanks to spend money on another team's free agent reliever this offseason. Or the next. Or the next.

And that's exactly the way it should be.

2008-07-03 21:20:56
306.   Vandelay Industries
292 That's because we already have one 39 year old Mike Mussina. Kennedy will never be even that good. He's well below average, and I wish folks would just accept that and move on.
2008-07-03 21:32:40
307.   Vandelay Industries
305 I could not agree more with you concerning the bullpen. I have long thought that paying a bullpen arm that isn't a closer or closer willing to pitch the eighth to get to Mo is akin to throwing money out a car window. These guys are in the bullpen for a reason. Although pitch counts have changed the game considerably, one thing hasn't changed, if you aren't closing, you are in the bulpen because you aren't good enough to start, and if that is the case, you aren't worth more than league minimum.

I do however believe that Cashman is living in the same state of denial than many fans are, believing we have starters in the minors who can compete at a high level anytime soon. Joba hasn't proven he can quite yet, Hughes is a huge question mark, and that's it. No one else is even one year away by today's standards, although I would call up anyone 21 or older, and see what they have. The Yankees however, will not.

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