Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
The Thrill Of Victory and the Agony Of The Feet
2008-06-15 19:37
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

The Yankees crushalated the Astros yesterday, finishing a three game sweep in Houston with a powerful 13-0 lashing. Unfortunately, they also suffered what could be a major injury.

The Yankees got three runs early when Hideki Matsui cracked a two-out double to the gap in left center and Roy Oswalt, who was struggling once again, responded by walking Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, and Jorge Posada to make it 1-0. Robinson Cano then made it 3-0 with a lucky broken-bat single that dropped in behind third base and plated two more runs.

The real action happened in the sixth. With Oswalt still on the mound, Posada and Robinson Cano led off with singles. After a Melky Cabrera fly out, Chien-Ming Wang laid down a hard bunt back to Oswalt that got Posada thrown out at third, but with Cano on second and Wang on first, Johnny Damon chopped an infield single to load the bases. Derek Jeter then singled Cano and Wang home, but as Wang was headed home from third base he pulled up lame and wound up skipping half of the way home. Once he touched the plate, Wang bent over at the waist as Cano anxiously waved out the trainer.

Wang was helped off the field and later left the clubhouse with the help of crutches and a golf cart with what was described generically as a foot injury. More won't be known until Wang has an MRI today, but he'll almost surely land on the DL, and if anything is broken, he could miss most or all of the remainder of the season (Brian Bruney's lisfranc injury come's frighteningly to mind). Let's not get ahead of ourselves with regard to how long Wang will be out, but if it's more than the minimum, it will be a brutal loss for the Yanks, as Wang appeared to have broken his slump with a strong outing in Oakland his previous time out and five shutout innings yesterday. Over those last two starts Wang compiled this line: 12 1/3 IP, 13 H, 1 R, 2 BB, 5 K. With the team starting to click, Wang could have run off an impressive streak the way he was pitching.

Roy Oswalt left the game at the same instant that Wang did, but due to poor performance rather than injury. The Yankees then teed off on lefty reliever Wesley Wright, a Rule 5 pick from the Dodgers this winter. Wright's first pitch was turned around for a two-run single by Matsui. His second was creamolished to left field by Alex Rodriguez for a three-run homer. Wright then got ahead of Jason Giambi 0-2, only to come back with three straight balls, the last of which hit Giambi. Two pitches later, Jorge Posada cracked another homer, driving Wright from the game and pushing the score to 11-0.

The last two Yankee runs came in the eight against ex-Brave Oscar Villarreal. In place of Wang, Ross Ohlendorf, Edwar Ramirez, LaTroy Hawkins, and Dan Giese each threw a scoreless inning in which each allowed one baserunner and struck out one batter.

The Yanks are coming back home with a four-game winning streak to face a poor San Diego Padres team, but all thoughts will be about Chien-Ming Wang until, and perhaps even after, the Yankees release a diagnosis on Wang's swollen right foot.

Comments (81)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-15 22:23:14
1.   dianagramr
Doesn't sound good ...

"He did not speak to reporters, but he told others that he felt a pop in his foot while rounding third base, a strong sign of ligament damage that could sideline him for months, if not the rest of the season."


"The injury is to the top of Wang's foot, the same general area that reliever Brian Bruney injured when he tripped while covering first base in April. Bruney was found to have a Lisfranc injury and is expected to miss a minimum of three months.

Wang has symptoms of the same injury, including swelling and the inability to bear weight on the foot; he left Minute Maid Park on crutches, in a soft cast. Bruney's injury was in the middle of the foot, and Wang's is believed to be in the webbing of his toes, between his big toe and second toe."

2008-06-16 01:09:31
2.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
I think I am going to cry...just when it seemed the team was about to roll!

so does Cashman call Cleveland abotu C.C.? Do they stick with the 200million dollar rebuilding plan?

2008-06-16 01:23:46
3.   Jerkface
Love the title and the writing. crushelated!
2008-06-16 04:12:55
4.   OldYanksFan
We will probably need some SP help, but is CC, at $120m+ really the right choice? It seems to me that Cashman has been very careful NOT to do things that may compromise the future. While a CC would always be nice, it seems to me if we have a healthy Wang, Hughes, IPK, Melancon, Horne, Sanchez, Brackman and others, that $120m may be better invested elsewhere.

Over the last 5 years, we are gotten used to a team with tremendous offense but questionable pitching. Looking at 2010, this is not what I see. My guess is over the next 2 years we will need two position impact FAs, maybe at 1st and OF, if we want to maintain a power offense. Since offense sells seats, I think the Yankees will feel that way also.

Also, in looking at WinShares, while everyone clamors that 'we need an Ace to win', impact position players typically have many more winshares then impact pitchers.
So far in 2008, of 36 players with 10 of more WS, only 3 are pitchers. In 2007, the best WS pitcher was CC, tied for 26th, with 24 WS. For comparsion, Cano had 21, Jeter (tied with CC) had 24, Posada had 26, and ARod had 39. I was surprised to see our Buddy Teixeira only had 12.

And 2007 was a career year for CC, posting a 143 ERA+ compared to his career average of 114.

So to me, CC is a panic move, but more importantly, one that is not a good fit for the direction the Yankees are heading in going forward.

2008-06-16 04:26:36
5.   JL25and3
4 In 2006 he had an ERA+ of 140. That's a pretty impressive two-year span, beginning when he was still just 25. He had a horrible April this year, but has been superb since then.

Several of the pitchers you name are relievers. A rotation of Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, IPK and ??? doesn't fill me with confidence. CC is a real pitcher, a good one and still pretty young.

I like the idea of letting young players develop, but I think you've become way too dogmatic about it. Sometimes you want to use young players as trading chips, and CC is exactly the kind of guy you want to use them for. I don't see that as setting back the plan a bit, unless you're rigidly clinging to the idea that all prospects muse be saved - and that all of them will be good.

I suspect the Indians will want too much for him, but I'd definitely make a push to get him. The contract they'd have to give him worries me not a bit.

2008-06-16 05:13:35
6.   rbj
It all comes down to what Cleveland wants and if CC will go for a long term contract now. I'm not going to give up the farm for a 3-4 month rental.

Plus it is possible for Pettitte to come back for another year.

2008-06-16 05:24:40
7.   horace-clarke-era
The CC and Joba (bad pun on Soda, you know it is a bad pun when you feel the need to explain it!) issue ...

I find this intriguing. The talk all along has been that holding off on Santana is partly justified by the idea we might be able to sign Sabathia as a free agent, getting a ballpark-comparable starter without giving anyone up. This made sense to me (though I think Santana is considerably better, myself ... am aware that a different view can be defended).

Once we are into a trade, we are exactly where we were in the off-season ... Cleveland will not want much less, if anything less, for CC than Minny did for Santana, and our 'prize' prospects have come down somewhat in trade value, too, all three of them (Melky, IPK, PKH). Cleveland do not need a CF, anyhow.

I doubt Pettitte will be back. He was close to not doing so this year. Relying on the New Moose and Good Andy is a shaky proposition anyhow. OYF is surely right to say good position players help more than good starters, but we'll need both, especially a first baseman. Or is the Return of the Giambini seen as a multi-year idea?

2008-06-16 05:51:26
8.   ny2ca2dc
It would seem easiest to just plug Giese in and bring up a reliever to take his place (Patterson? Britton must still be on the DL). Let Giese have a few starts to give Kennedy a chance to rehab and get a couple starts in the minors, then plug him back in. Honestly though, I'd be interested to see what Peavey would cost. Probably half the farm, but it might be worth it if you keep Joba, Cano, and one of Ajax/Montero. Then sign CC in the offseason: CC, Peavey, Wang, Joba, anyone.
2008-06-16 05:52:55
9.   RIYank
I think it goes without saying that trading for CC without a contract extension is out of the question. I also doubt that Shapiro is eager to trade away this last season -- the Indians have about the same chances of making the play-offs as the Yankees have, which means it will be tough with Sabathia but next to impossible without him. So I doubt we can get that deal done.
What about Garcia? Assuming Wang can no longer make a contribution, it seems to me the Yanks' only chance is to catch an Aaron Small lightning-in-a-bottle kind of thing.
2008-06-16 05:55:03
10.   mehmattski
Yes, clearly the best time to trade is precisely when your bargaining power is reduced to nothing due to desperation.

The asking price is going to be Joba Chamberlain and two or three other top prospects. Is that really worth it? Keep in mind that IPK and Hughes can't be traded until they are off the DL. And even then, no team is going to trade for them until they show they have completely healed. The Indians are willing to hold on to Sabathia until the end and then take the draft picks until they are absolutely blown away. The Yankees are not going to get a steal hear, and it's very likely that whatever pieces have to head to Cleveland will cripple the Yankees for this season.

2008-06-16 05:55:55
11.   ny2ca2dc
9 Garcia would be a good sign, just to throw against the wall. If there's not an obvious rotation spot for him, he might not sign though - presumably he'd have some suitors if he's decent.

This makes not signing Colon even worse!

2008-06-16 06:01:28
12.   ny2ca2dc
10 Is it a rule that players on the DL can't be traded? If so, I wasn't aware of that, thought it was just custom. (If that's the rule, then my Peavey idea ain't going to happen, because it would likely require Hughes + + + +) If we're getting wild though, what about Bedard. He's at least got another year on his contract.

Agree CC ain't likely, nor likely worth the cost because he's a rental. I don't think he would cost Joba - the market just values prospects so much these days - but would probably cost far too much for 3 months of CC.

2008-06-16 06:08:04
13.   mehmattski
12 I assumed it was a rule, but according to this website, players on the DL simply need the permission of the commish to be traded:

Players on the DL can instead be a Player to be Named Later, to avoid commissioner approval.

2008-06-16 06:12:43
14.   RIYank
12 Well, it wouldn't exactly be "3 months of CC". It would be those 3 months plus being sure of having him for the future -- I'm assuming there would be no trade without an extension or new contract.
But I'm still with you guys who say he would be way too expensive. If Cleveland were out of it, that would be a different story -- they'd almost have to trade him now unless they think they can sign him up again. But they're in the hunt, so they'll trade him only if they think they can get a lot of value, and I agree that it would be a big mistake to give up that much (Hughes +++).
2008-06-16 06:14:11
15.   JL25and3
12 I think players on the DL can be traded, they just can't be sent down (except for rehab).

The Santana deal is a red herring that's irrelevant to this situation.

I don't think anyone is advocating that the Yankees make this deal at any cost. Obviously, if the Indians want Joba or Cano, the Yankees walk away. Maybe the price tag just went up - but since we have no idea what the price tag was or is, I wouldn't write it off just on that basis.

Plug in Giese as a placeholder for Kennedy? Yikes. I'm not at all convinced that Kennedy is a major-league pitcher at this point anyway.

2008-06-16 06:22:43
16.   ChuckM
The Pads signed Peavy to a extension through 2012 with an option for 2013 a few months ago-I don't think he's getting traded anywhere.
2008-06-16 06:23:29
17.   ny2ca2dc
14 Right, and also the choice to let him walk for the draft picks if (for some reason) you wanted to.

My point is just that if they're going to trade some blue chippers, might as well add a pair more to the pot and get Bedard or Peavey, then just sign CC in the off season. I don't think anyone else is going to be able to sign CC during the season, be it Cleveland or a (possible) trading partner. I think being this close he'll want to see what the Yanks bid on the open market.

2008-06-16 06:24:37
18.   JL25and3
17 I think it's more likely that any trade would depend on the team signing Sabathia to a long-term deal.
2008-06-16 06:27:22
19.   ny2ca2dc
16 WOW, thru 2013! I would guess it would cost Cano plus Joba (to begin with?) for that contract, yikes! So much for that idea.

At least we know what Bedard's rough valuation is(was): a blue chip young OFer, 3 hot arms, and a pretty good old ML LHRP. If Tabata could sub for Jones (dubious), that would be worth considering.

2008-06-16 06:37:16
20.   JL25and3
Bedard's 16 months older than Sabathia, and CC's track record is more proven. Plus, I love the idea of hearing Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels at the Stadium.
2008-06-16 06:41:29
21.   ms october
17 18 take it with the entire container of salt - but there's been a lot of talk on boston radio the past week that they would trade for cc and not sign him to an extension to basically ensure another world series this year and let him walk because they feel they draft so well they will get exactly what they want with the draft picks
2008-06-16 07:02:32
22.   Bob B
Let's just focus on sweeping the Padres until Wang's situation is clear. If it's a bad sprain, the Yankees have plenty of in house options for a few starts. Giese has shown he can pitch in the Big's as well as Rasner. Personally, I'd not be interested in CC since he's going to be available as a free agent. 11 Who would really want Bartolo Colon?
2008-06-16 07:03:41
23.   monkeypants
We tend to think of Wang as the ace of the staff, so now that he has gone down--and assuming the worst--trade scenarios seem to involve various ace-quality replacements. What about a different approach: to date Wang's ERA+ is only 101. He has been essentially a league average pitcher this year, albeit one who gives lots of innings. Perhaps tyhe focus should be more on an average pitchers as a stop gap until he returns.

I would then view the pursuit of Sabathia (for example) as a separate issue.

2008-06-16 07:06:08
24.   JL25and3
23 He's only league average because he got shelled in a few starts. I think we view those starts as an aberration, and see him as significantly better than average.
2008-06-16 07:09:06
25.   JL25and3
As a side note: if Wang could bunt worth a damn, this wouldn't have happened.
2008-06-16 07:13:29
26.   Southern Yankee
Hey Cliff,

The only way ARod's homer went to right field is on a ricochet off that funky left field brick "thingy"!

2008-06-16 07:14:25
27.   monkeypants
24 OK, but they have gotten where they are this year (which is admittedly not a great position) without having the stud Wang for the whole season. Depending on the injury, it may be possible to patch together a less costly solution.
2008-06-16 07:24:35
28.   Cliff Corcoran
26 You're right, I'm wrong, it's left. I got my left and right mixed up.
2008-06-16 07:26:46
29.   JL25and3
27 Right, but they've had the stud Wang for half the time. A guy who's legitimately a league-average pitcher won't give you the stud Wang at all.

Also, as you suggest, what they've done so far isn't good enough.

2008-06-16 07:33:12
30.   williamnyy23
27 But Wang has been very, very good for a good portion of the season, and after a lull, seemed poised to go on another good stretch. Losing Wang is just can't dismiss it as the loss of a league average pitcher. If the Yankees can catch lighting in a bottle with someone like Small, that'd be great, but lighting rarely strikes twice.

There is no way around it. If Wang is going to be out for a while, which certainly seems to be the case, then the Yankees season has taken a huge hit. I still maintain that Wang should have never been in a position to get injured to begin with, so the Yankees are now paying for their negligence, whether it was on the part of Meacham or the whole coaching staff.

2008-06-16 07:42:12
31.   monkeypants
29 But herein lis the danger. What they have done has not been good enough, and that relied on Rasner and renaissance Moose and super Giambi and super Damon. Even with stud Wang, there is a very good chance that improvement by stinky players will be offset by regression of aging players. In that scenario, is it worth trading the farm for CC Sabathia (or anyone else)? What is the end goal in mind?

If the organization really feels that Sabathia is worth it in the long run, then by all means trade for him. But that decision should be more or less independent of Wang's injury this season.

It really comes down to what your expectations are for this season. If the one wants to win this year, then one should probably pick up Sabathia and another pitcher, right? Because right now, assuming Wang is out for a long time, picking up Sabathia would be the equivalent of trading Wang(and prospects) for Sabathia.

2008-06-16 07:46:11
32.   monkeypants
30 I'm not dismissing anything. I am noting that Yankee fans tend to overvalue Wang because he has been the best pitcher on a very weak staff the last few years (best era+ 124). Now that he has gone down, there is a great danger that overvaluing + panic = really, really bad trade.

I suggest instead that we step back and consider what has actually been lost (consider Wang for his career and his performance this year--even you can only muster that he "seemed poised" to go on a run; maybe yes, maybe no), and where the team actually stands, and what the goals for the season and beyond.

2008-06-16 07:48:04
33.   Yankee Fan In Boston
32 i would love to send this to hank steinbrenner. the thought of that man's reaction to this situation frightens me.
2008-06-16 07:49:20
34.   rbj
I hate sitting around waiting for the news.

And I'm not sure I'd give up the farm from CC (assuming there's a long term deal in place) The Yankees are an old team, they need to work some young guys into the lineup especially at 1B and catcher. And at a corner OF. I guess it just comes down to what Cleveland would want.

2008-06-16 07:51:21
35.   williamnyy23
32 I think you maybe undervaluing what Wang does, which is pretty much give the Yankees a good chance to win every single game he pitches. Sure, he'll have those outings where the sinker doesn't sink, and that will inflate his ERA, but I think he has been one of the best pitchers in the game over the past 2+ seasons.

What has been lost is a pitcher capable of giving you a good seven innings every time out, which equates to a 20-game winner if the Yankees offense is clicking. Those kinds of arms are few and far between.

2008-06-16 08:00:35
36.   mehmattski
I think I would be much more willing to trade some second-tier prospects for AJ Burnett than the whole farm for CC Sabathia.
2008-06-16 08:04:01
37.   RIYank
25 Though he seems to bunt better than Cano.
Still, point taken.
2008-06-16 08:04:27
38.   monkeypants
35 Maybe I am undervaluing him.

On the other hand, if your final statement that such arms are "few and far between," then maybe the best course of action would be to pack it in for the season. And I am serious about. The very rarity of such arms means that 1] they will be very, very costly on the trading market, especially given the Yankees' position; and 2] the odds are very high that whomever the Yankees get will fall short of expectations, given the rarity of the commodity. Indeed, they stand a good chance of getting duped. So maybe it would be best to just ride out the injury and start planning for next season.

2008-06-16 08:07:33
39.   RIYank
The way I look at it is this: if you replace Wang by a guy you could get for cheap, it probably costs about five games over the 90 remaining. The Yankees' chances of making the play-offs then go from 'questionable' to 'very doubtful'. Trade the future for a stud, and the post-season is still far from a sure thing this year and the next five years could be unpleasant. That's why I'm not looking for a blockbuster trade.
2008-06-16 08:10:00
40.   williamnyy23
38 Maybe? To be honest, my immediate focus today is still finding out whose negligence put the Yankees in this position to begin with. According to Pete Abe's blog, this was the second time Wang ran the bases since high school and the first time he had scored a run in 10 years. PeteAbe also reported that the Yankees pitchers do not practice running the bases, and printed a quote from Moose saying the running the pitchers do is nothing like being on the bases.

In other words, Wang was ill prepared to run the bases, and yet for some reason, the Yankees decided to take no caution with him, even after seeing how awkwardly he ran to 2B. From Girardi at the top right on down to Meacham, the Yankee coaching staff is responsible for this injury. Across town, Willie Randolph is on the chopping block because his players suck, but I am sure he hasn't made any one decision more detrimental than the one the Yankees staff made yesterday.

2008-06-16 08:13:52
41.   Schteeve
I understand that when bad things happen the human impulse is to find someone to blame. But Wang is a 28 year old professional athlete who runs every day of his life. Blaming the manager or 3B coach might make you feel a little better or something, but the fact remains that this was a freak injury. Just deal with it and move on.
2008-06-16 08:14:28
42.   ChuckM
36 I don't see the Jays trading within their division, even if he is going to opt out of his contract at the end of the season.
2008-06-16 08:15:50
43.   monkeypants
40 Investigate away. I think your position on this is errant, but I don't have the energy to pursue the argument much.
2008-06-16 08:16:40
44.   mehmattski
40 Good luck with your witch-hunt, william. Remember, if she ways as much as a duck....
2008-06-16 08:20:38
45.   claybeez
Anyone else have problems with the pre-onsale, this morning. I was in at 10AM, selected 2 tickets, put in my password and clicked. Only, the next page told me my password was incorrect. I tried it over and over, pasting and typing manually to no avail. Finally, at around 10:15, I tried again and the password worked. The same one. Of course, by then, there weren't 2 seats together. I clicked "split" them. Page loads and they are ALL gone. I am pissed. Anyone else have this problem? Was the fix in?

I posted this at RAB, too. Just wanted to see if anyone here had the same problem.

2008-06-16 08:27:05
46.   williamnyy23
41 43 44 No need to debate the topic...I don't think anyone's position is going to change. Ironically, going forward, I am sure the Yankees will take the very precautions they ignored with Wang.

45 I didn't have a problem with my password, but also got a sold out message on my first attempt.

2008-06-16 08:31:59
47.   monkeypants
46 "Ironically, going forward, I am sure the Yankees will take the very precautions they ignored with Wang."

Nice rhetorical trick. Put another way: "Going forward, the Yankees will overreact to a freak occurrence and impose a bunch of unnecessary, after-the-fact rules."

; )

2008-06-16 08:49:46
48.   williamnyy23
47 That's your opinion. I look at it as the Yankees will take sensible precautions to ensure that very valuable commodities are not damaged doing things to which they are unaccustomed, especially when the reward for taking such risks is negligible.

I think it's pretty common practice to take it easy with pitchers anyway. For some reason, the Yankees chose to withhold caution. Hopefully, they'll start doing it now, even if it is too little too late.

2008-06-16 08:58:56
49.   horace-clarke-era
I'm not going to pile on again, said my piece last night, and others have made the right points (by me) today. I have no idea what other teams' habits are in the AL for baserunning drills for pitchers, and would say it is apt to hold off castigating NY for not doing it, unless it is normal practice. And what happens if someone pulls a hammy in sliding practice? (Bunting drills are another matter...)

I'll just add a small thing: my sense is that Wang's 'awkward' running to 2nd was actually because he was ORDERED not to slide. In other words they WERE being careful with him. It is actually hard to stop on a base without sliding, but that's what he was doing, and I'll bet a shiny nickel it was on Pena's instructions (or even global pitcher instructions earlier). He looked awkward to us because we ALWAYS see people slide and he didn't.

On the CC point ... I will flatly assume that NOTHING is worth even talking about, absent an extension. Yankees will not deal talent for 3-4 months, and I even think more of Sir Hank than that, let alone Cash, who knows what he is doing here and clearly has a strategy!

Bedard is kind of interesting as there is so much feeling that Seattle needs to blow their team up and an 'ace' won't help for a year or three, so they might as well get young prospects. The problem is how wretched they look if they get too little back.

This is all a bit premature, anyhow.

2008-06-16 09:00:53
50.   rbj
48 Sort of like what the Yankees did in 1998, after David Cone's incident they banned Yankee pitchers from petting their dogs.

Sorry, just couldn't resist.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-16 09:03:33
51.   Raf
48 Who's to say that the Yanks don't take it easy with their pitchers? This wasn't Wang's first game under NL rules. Who's to say they didn't do anything in 2005 or 06 or 07?
2008-06-16 09:04:23
52.   horace-clarke-era
One more thing: I suspect Cleveland is toast. With Victor gone and Hafner still messed up ('stalled' is the word they used, for his rehab and healing) and Westbrook gone for the year ... this looks like a stalled team, even in a weak division.

And one more more thing ... for the moment, our 'target' is Tampa Bay, who have Crawford limping and Pena still down and are new to all of this (the summer, as I keep saying, hasn't even STARTED). We can be weakened (and would be by Wang being out) and compete. Period.

2008-06-16 09:05:28
53.   williamnyy23
50 You gest, but teams have all kinds of clauses in contracts banning activities that I think we all would say are low risk. Yet, sending a starting pitcher into a potential play at the plate misses the cut?

Also, it's really relevant because it's 10 years old, but I quickly searched the NYT database and found an article suggesting that AL teams were going to withhold their pitchers from throwing in NL parks to protect them from industry. At the least, it shows that teams have been concerned about their pitchers from the advent of interleague. Even Girardi said yesterday that getting a pitcher hurt on the bases was his worst nightmare. Well, if something is my worst nightmare, I'd take every sensible precaution to prevent it. Not sending Wang home from 2B seems to me as if it would have been a very sensible precaution.

2008-06-16 09:05:46
54.   JL25and3
31 I think Sabathia's worth it for the long run. Yes, the Yankees could wait until the offseason, but they might find he's not available. I'd take the bird in the hand.

36 Sorry, but I see that as the worst possible idea. Burnett's 31 and he can't stay healthy. Either way, the Yankees will have to overpay; the price tag might be smaller for Burnett, but I don't want Burnett. If you're going to overpay, do it for top quality.

2008-06-16 09:06:27
55.   pistolpete
Call me crazy but I think Lowe from the Dodgers (WasWatching) might be a decent idea. I certainly like that trade better than going after Arroyo (Francessa).

All we'd have to do is throw in maybe Kennedy and a bunch of guys that Torre used to abuse (or would love to abuse)...

2008-06-16 09:07:16
56.   williamnyy23
53 I have to type more slowly...that should be:

"it's not really relevant" and
"protect them from injury"

2008-06-16 09:07:33
57.   JL25and3
53 AL teams were going to withhold their pitchers from throwing in NL parks to protect them from industry.

You win typo of the day.

2008-06-16 09:07:50
58.   williamnyy23
55 If you want to replace Wang, Lowe would be a very literal subsitution.
2008-06-16 09:10:01
59.   Raf
As for CC, the Indians are still in the race, with a couple of trading deadlines looming. I don't see them trading him.

9 I think Garcia's still recovering from shoulder surgery. Given the state of pitching (the Brewers took a chance on Jeff Weaver a while ago), I am a bit surprised that no one has taken a flyer on him.

2008-06-16 09:10:29
60.   JL25and3
I don't understand the appeal of trading for B pitchers. I'd rather make no deal at all.
2008-06-16 09:11:20
61.   williamnyy23
57 Industry can be a very dangerous thing. We need to get these boys back on the farms!
2008-06-16 09:12:09
62.   williamnyy23
60 Even if that means Karstens and Igawa, each of whom are very capable of throwing to a 6-7 ERA?
2008-06-16 09:13:21
63.   JL25and3
59 Westbrook, Martinez and Hafner are injured, and they don't have a major-league second baseman. I don't see them making a run at it.
2008-06-16 09:16:07
64.   RIYank
61 Oh, sure, now you're going all Upton Sinclair on us!
2008-06-16 09:16:40
65.   JL25and3
62 For a month until Hughes gets back? Probably. But what I really want is to make a serious run at Sabathia.
2008-06-16 09:24:24
66.   rbj
53 It was a 3-2 count with 2 outs. Wang was running on the pitch. He was basically at third by the time the ball was hit. Besides, Damon was right behind him. We will just have to agree to disagree, but I saw nothing wrong with sending Wang home. Hitters pull hamstrings all the time running from home to first and we expect, and demand, that they run hard even if looks like a grounder to short where the sensible thing is to pull up. There's always a chance of a bobble or wide throw, so they should run even risking a common injury.

Now I would not have Wang slide or try to bowl the catcher over, but basic running is fine. This is an incredibly freaky injury. You can't control for everything and this injury I cannot put in the "foreseeable & preventable" category.

And I don't think the contracts ban low risk behavior, rather high risk ones such as martial arts (I've got a couple of banged up knuckles myself) or sky-diving or motorcycle riding.

2008-06-16 09:26:49
67.   Raf
62 It's only temporary; Kartsens, Igawa, Giese, etc are holding a rotation spot until Hughes and/or Kennedy gets back.

If a trade is made, I think we'll see a couple of starts from the guys in the pen, and they'll get rotated to the minors depending on workload.

2008-06-16 09:28:06
68.   Raf
67 If a trade isn't made...
2008-06-16 09:32:10
69.   dianagramr

If the AL never had adopted the stupid DH rule, we wouldn't be kvelling over this (i.e. Wang and all other pitchers would be expected to be able to run the bases, hit, bunt .... you know ... real baseball skills).

I agree that this was a freak injury, and could have just as well happened if he ran to cover 1B on grounder to Giambi.

2008-06-16 09:33:15
70.   dianagramr
Hey .... I hear Sidney Ponson is available (I kid I kid)
2008-06-16 09:37:17
71.   rbj
70 Not after Girardi banned sweets from the clubhouse. No way Sidney's going there.
2008-06-16 09:46:05
72.   Raf
70 I have no idea how he has managed to last this long in the bigs. He can't start or relieve, he doesn't strike anyone out, he gives up too many hits, and he walks too many people.
2008-06-16 09:50:32
73.   OldYanksFan
7 "Or is the Return of the Giambini seen as a multi-year idea?"
Giambi was quoted as saying he wants to play another 3 years. I don't think he will resign for a singles year, but we can exercise his option for a net cost of $17m (for 2009 only). There is also a chance Moose might be up for a 1 year, relatively cheap deal.

I would however point out that this year, we have NOT yet benefitted from Joba the starter, but we are about to. So Joba may be an equal or better replacement for Wang.

31 "If the organization really feels that Sabathia is worth it in the long run, then by all means trade for him. But that decision should be more or less independent of Wang's injury this season."
I believe this is the perfect statement, and I believe Cashman is onboard. I simply can't see the Yankees making a panic move that might compromise our future to save this year... which may not be worth saving (at a high cost).

2008-06-16 09:54:44
74.   OldYanksFan
I am almost sure nothing will happen in the very short run. While Cleveland is hurting, I don't think they are ready to throw in the towel. While we are hurting, I think we need to know a little more what IPK/Hughes/farm might offer before we make a big deal.

I think this is a wait and see until at least after the ASB.

2008-06-16 10:10:06
75.   monkeypants
48 It is a matter of opinion--that was my point. I was just pointing out your clever rhetoric, which first claimed that there was not need to debate the topic, then in the next clause used language that presupposed your position (it would only be "ironic" that the Yankees would take "precautions" that they "ignored" if in fact the Yankees were in the wrong as you have argued).

I'm not arguing the point; I'm just calling attention to your subtle manipulation of language. Well played.

2008-06-16 10:11:56
76.   pistolpete
73 I was thinking that about Joba myself, so if he upgrades to a full game within the next month or so, you then have to have a replacement for his 5-6 innings of work. If Rasner can give that on a consistent basis and Kennedy can come back & do the same, IMO we'd be okay for the rest of the season...

Provided the lineup does its job, that is. Still, Joba/Pettitte/Moose doesn't exactly inspire dreams of a World Series (let alone an ALCS) berth.

2008-06-16 10:19:58
77.   mehmattski
76 Hey, that's Possible All-Star Game Starter Mussina you're putting down there!
2008-06-16 10:22:20
78.   ChrisS
Some people are just hellbent on gutting the farm.

Lowe is likely going to end the season as a Type A free agent, any package for him has to be better than 2 first round picks. Which could work out for the Yanks, they could clean up in next year's draft provided they lose some players.

The asking price for any experienced ML arm is going to be two minor league ones at least. Karstens or Chase Wright won't get it done.

The asking price for CC will begin at Cano and Hughes. And it will likely end with the addition of a talented AA/AAA relief arm and Marquez/Horne.

It'll be interesting to see what the diagnosis is and what ultimately happens. I can be sure that Cash has been on the phone non-stop since yesterday.

2008-06-16 10:32:28
79.   williamnyy23
75 I think you've missed the irony. Whether I am right or those who have no problem sending Wang are right, the Yankees are likely to take the precautions I suggested only after the fact. Assuming my position is the correct one, they should have been proactive beforehand. If, however, your position is correct, they shouldn't take any precautions going forward. As a result, the Yankees are likely going to take the wrong approach, regardless of how you view the situation.

There isn't any subtle manipulation of language. I think my point is very overt. I think the the Yankees shoudl have taken the precaution of not sending Wang. They did not. Whether they were right or wrong is open to debate, but that doesn't change the facts.

2008-06-16 10:42:30
80.   monkeypants
79 I certainly do not read into your language the neutrality that you claim especially the word "ignored," which suggests that something that should have been done was overlooked and therefore implies negligence. And indeed, your response to my re-casting of the same "facts" indicates that the way these "facts" are described does in fact manipulate their meaning. But if your intent a neutral statement, so be it. The funness of this topic is wearing off.
2008-06-16 11:12:00
81.   3rd gen yankee fan
Given some of the moves that Girardi/Cash made this year, I was never convinced that we were actually making a run for the playoffs. So I don't see it as a terrible loss if we stand pat.

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