Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
2008-06-15 07:50
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to

Don't look now, but the Yankees are making their move. Having finally smashed through the glass ceiling that being two games over .500 had represented for them since April 23, the Yanks move to three games over with yesterday's win. They're now 5-1-2 over their last eight series (including the current one against Houston), are 16-9 (.640) over that stretch, and have been in third place in the AL East for the last week.

Today, they send Chien-Ming Wang to the mound looking for their first three-game sweep of a team that's not the Seattle Mariners and just their second four-game winning streak of the season. Wang snapped a four-start slump with a dominant outing against the A's his last time out. The Astros will throw their own struggling ace in Roy Oswalt, who similarly dominated in his last start (7 IP, 1 R, 10 K against Milwaukee). Maybe we'll get a good old fashioned pitcher's duel to wrap this one up.

Bobby Abreu is the odd man out of the DH-free lineup this afternoon, with Hideki Matui, Johnny Damon, and Melky Cabrera roaming the pastures from left to right. Matsui is hitting third in Abreu's place.

Comments (300)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-15 10:47:56
1.   mehmattski
Kind of an odd outfield arrangement, especially with the cavernous left-center field. Oh well, it gets Matsui, Damon, and Giambi all in the lineup, so I shouldn't complain too much.

Oswalt's been pretty crappy this year other
than his last start. He's given up a lot of homers (17, his career high is 18) which is a result of allowing way too many line drives (15.5%, up from 11% last year). Both of those may be due to not getting ahead on many hitters- he's thrown 60% first-pitch strikes, down from 67% last year and 64% in his career. He's also gone 0-2 on just 16% of his hitters, down from 25% last year and 23% in his career.

Looking at his 2008 Game Log:

He seems to do best when he gets a high number of swinging strikes.

2008-06-15 11:06:23
2.   rbj
Three games over, now we're getting into nosebleed territory.
2008-06-15 11:09:26
3.   mehmattski
I don't get the fixation with Jeter being the interleague hit king. He also has the most hits in the major leagues since 1997, so it would be surprising if he wasn't the hits leader in any given 250-game split.
2008-06-15 11:11:52
4.   mehmattski
Apparently it's hyperbole day for Michael Kay. Matsui's ball was "drilled!" to medium center field and A-Rod's ball was "crushed!" to about the same distance in left-center...
2008-06-15 11:12:24
5.   monkeypants
3 Plus, don't the Yankees play more IL games than most teams, because of the goofy 6 gams every year v. the Mets.

BTW, I hate interleague play, but that is topic for another day.

2008-06-15 11:13:53
6.   mehmattski
5 Well I think that every AL team has the same number of inter-league games each year. It's teams in the NL that rotate which ones get fewer interleague games, since there's 16 of them.
2008-06-15 11:15:11
7.   monkeypants
4 Right, but Sterling did go on and on about how "cavernous" it is the CF, so he can cover himself by shouting about every "drive" off the bat, and when it is caught in the medium OF droning on and on about how big the OF is.

This is only about the third game I have listened to on the radio, and the first not in the car. He's insufferable.

2008-06-15 11:16:15
8.   mehmattski
It's Darrin Erstad! He Used to Be a Football Player! He's a Professional Hitter (career OPS+ 95)! A Winner!
2008-06-15 11:16:57
9.   monkeypants
6 Indeed, you seem to be correct:

2008-06-15 11:17:42
10.   mehmattski
That was the most professional GIDP I've ever seen! Get that man more at bats!
2008-06-15 11:19:19
11.   cult of basebaal
10 true grit!
2008-06-15 11:20:27
12.   OldYanksFan
ARod's shot was crushed. I've seen soft liners take longer to get to the SS then ARod's shot took to get to the CFer.
2008-06-15 11:21:38
13.   Yankees Brasil
2 nasty pitches to finish off Lee. Wang looks good so far.
2008-06-15 11:23:16
14.   OldYanksFan
Jeez... JD Drew and the Sox continue to roll, up 5-0 over Cincy. In the Aligator Bowl, Florida lead TB 3-0. Toronto and Baltimore also down 3-0.
2008-06-15 11:25:04
15.   ms october
shouldn't that have been easy for a guy that used to play football?
2008-06-15 11:25:42
16.   mehmattski
Kenny Singleton has lost his mind...
2008-06-15 11:31:43
17.   monkeypants
16 Whassup? All I have is the Sterling-Waldman comedy hour.
2008-06-15 11:34:39
18.   Yankees Brasil
Cano and Melky back-to-back, very ugly.
2008-06-15 11:34:46
19.   ms october
ugh - that was three servings of ugly
2008-06-15 11:36:24
20.   Chyll Will
19 Jinx...
2008-06-15 11:45:34
21.   Chyll Will
2008-06-15 11:45:58
22.   Chyll Will
2008-06-15 11:46:37
23.   ms october
21 what are you testing chyll:} ?
2008-06-15 11:48:28
24.   Chyll Will
23 I was refreshing and refreshing, wondering why there was so much silence. That's when the crickets came... >;)
2008-06-15 11:50:42
25.   ms october
24 :} - yeah pretty quite here today.
2008-06-15 11:53:26
26.   Chyll Will
I'm at my brother's house in LI; he and his wifey are moving back to the Bay Area this week. I'm on their Windows-ridden Dell computer, stuck with Explorer. So I was wondering if maybe there was a computer glitch that was seriously screwing around with my participation, but now I see that it's just a boring game on Father's Day, so no wonder there's so much silence...
2008-06-15 11:58:27
27.   Chyll Will
That was the same pitch he called a strike before. Unbelievable umpiring today, too...
2008-06-15 12:00:43
28.   monkeypants
And Captain Hacktastic gets away with swinging on the first pitch!

I'm still waiting to hear from those who have a TV feed why/how Singleton has lost his mind.

2008-06-15 12:00:48
29.   Chyll Will
This is the kind of stuff that usually happens to us. I still feel sorry for Oswalt, though; that bad call rattled him...
2008-06-15 12:00:57
30.   ny2ca2dc
Robinson gets some payback for all those caught line drives.
2008-06-15 12:01:18
31.   mehmattski
17 Sorry, was on the phone with my dad... Singleton noted that Darrin Erstad had a .300 batting average this season and said that Cooper "just has to" give Erstad more at bats. Riiiiiight.

Maybe I should go back on the phone, the Yankees put together a two-out rally! With some RBIs for Cano!

2008-06-15 12:01:48
32.   OldYanksFan
wow... looked like that hit the chalk. Lucky is good.
2008-06-15 12:02:42
33.   Yankees Brasil
What is Melky waiting for?
2008-06-15 12:03:10
34.   monkeypants
31 Ah, I see. Well, he did play for a championship club, so he veteran leadership and intangibles. You can't discount that.
2008-06-15 12:04:15
35.   Chyll Will
28 I missed it too, having turned on the game just as Alex was walking.

Cano needs to be jumped on by the older vets. There's no reason why he should be first-pitch swinging at this point unless he's deliberately trying to piss someone in particular off...

2008-06-15 12:04:16
36.   OldYanksFan
I agree with Singleton. They should let Erstad punk more...
2008-06-15 12:04:43
37.   OldYanksFan
or PUNT more.
Oh well.
2008-06-15 12:04:56
38.   ms october
28 yeah it seems like good ole robbie gets positive reinforcement for some of his decisions like swinging at the 1st pitch after the guy walked the park

27 seems like this crew has been especially bad this series

26 are you having to help pack chyll?

2008-06-15 12:06:58
39.   OldYanksFan
Looks like a good day to gain a game on TB, who is down 6-0 in the Swamp Bowl.
2008-06-15 12:07:40
40.   cult of basebaal
32 lucky is good, but i'd much rather have cano have an at-bat where he deserved a hit ... i mean, just walked 2 guys in a row, including 1 to force in a run and what does cano do? why, hack at the first pitch (which, if it was a strike, was BARELY a strike), of course! even more infuriating, it wasn't even a good hack, since he got jammed and his bat shattered.

just another awful at-bat from rotten robbie

2008-06-15 12:08:41
41.   Just fair
39 Any day's a good day to gain on anybody. : )
Wow. If Cano had made that play.....
2008-06-15 12:08:53
42.   Chyll Will
38 Nope, but I'm on standby if needed >;)
2008-06-15 12:11:14
43.   Chyll Will
Wow, that was a sweet pitch. I'd have to tip my cap to whomever struck me out on a pitch like that.
2008-06-15 12:12:29
44.   OldYanksFan
40 Is it any consolation to you that we scored 2 runs?
2008-06-15 12:16:17
45.   mehmattski
44 In the course of this game, it is... but long term success is about the process, and if hitters start getting into a bad process, it's like drawing to inside straights- one time it got you a lot of money, but in the long run it's a great way to lose.

If Robbie keeps swinging at first-pitches, he's eventually going to lose. If RBI hits like that one simply re-inforce the bad process, well then we can probably forget about Cano returning to 2006 form.

2008-06-15 12:16:22
46.   Chyll Will
Well, I'm off for the day. Happy Father's Day to all >;)
2008-06-15 12:17:43
47.   Just fair
2008-06-15 12:18:19
48.   Yankees Brasil
Nice D Alex!
2008-06-15 12:18:30
49.   rbj
Sweet leather!

I've been bathing the dog and mowing the lawn.

2008-06-15 12:19:05
50.   ny2ca2dc
hah, even good players sometimes slide into first.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-15 12:19:25
51.   ms october
wow, nice play by arod.

and we see one of melky's sliding into first role models.

46 enjoy - hopefully you will stay on standby :}

2008-06-15 12:20:58
52.   RIYank
Hey, I'm late to the party again. Nothing like spending Fathers' Day with the boys! (My dad lives in Manhattan, so phone chatting only for him and me today.)

So, that was a difficult 0-run inning for Wang -- has he been struggling, or looking good?

2008-06-15 12:21:04
53.   Eirias
Is it just me, or is Michael Kay somewhat less annoying recently (hyperbole aside).
2008-06-15 12:28:32
54.   OldYanksFan
ohoh... Mets in deep do-do again. Anyone notice Detroit is getting hot?
2008-06-15 12:28:47
55.   mehmattski
52 No fly-ball outs (to outfielder) is pretty good. I haven't been watching his pitches too closely, though.
2008-06-15 12:31:14
56.   RIYank
55 Thanks. Yeah, that's good. Oswalt getting a hit didn't sound good to me. (Didn't see it though.)
2008-06-15 12:33:17
57.   RIYank
And that was a nice, easy inning, despite the fly-out. C-M's pitch count is much lower than Oswalt's, too. I don't see him going eight innings, but maybe seven?
2008-06-15 12:33:55
58.   mehmattski
56 Both his hit and the following hit from Erstad were some of the weakest hit balls of the game. Erstad's hit was like Cano's hit, except down the other foul line, and without the bases loaded.
2008-06-15 12:34:02
59.   rbj
56 RIYank, I don't mind if their pitcher has to spend time standing on base and running first to third. Just as long as he doesn't score.
2008-06-15 12:37:41
60.   RIYank
59 I guess. That never seemed all that strenuous, somehow :-)
2008-06-15 12:38:24
61.   Jeb
Hey fellas and happy father's day to us Dads. I just got back from the beach and am headed to the boogie down this week.

BTW why is it called the boogie down?

2008-06-15 12:41:34
62.   ny2ca2dc
Too bad they couldn't make Roy work more there - he's up to 97 pitches now. Maybe could've knocked him out. Now he probably comes out for the 6th with the bottom of the lineup coming.
2008-06-15 12:41:43
63.   Bama Yankee
61 Hey Jeb, which beach did you just get back from? I'm at the Beach Club in Fort Morgan right now...
2008-06-15 12:43:25
64.   RIYank
62 I was just thinking: if all three of our at-bats were like Giambi's, Oswalt could have been finished off by a 1-2-3 inning.
2008-06-15 12:44:11
65.   RIYank
Beauty. That GIDP could give Wang another inning!
2008-06-15 12:45:29
66.   RIYank
Another reason I'll be glad to see Oswalt out of there: he's providing most of the Astros' offense.
2008-06-15 12:45:33
67.   rbj
60 I think it's more about giving the pitcher a chance to catch his breath.
2008-06-15 12:46:43
68.   Jeb
63 Hey Bama I was at Dauphin Island. Long trip including a fun visit to the ER to get my eye sewn up after I met with a center console during a fast turn.

Did you like Yankee Stadium? We sent a lot of shout outs to you that day. Sorry the Yanks lost.

2008-06-15 12:49:03
69.   RIYank
68 And maybe it has to do with stress, rather than strenuousness.
Speaking of which: Oswalt on the ropes right now?
2008-06-15 12:49:16
70.   mehmattski
Wow, talk about Deja vu. Two hits nearly exactly the same way!
2008-06-15 12:49:29
71.   RIYank
Oops, I mean to address 67, not 68. But Hi, Jeb!
2008-06-15 12:49:54
72.   bartap74
53 As long as I don't have to listen to McCarver or Murcer, I'm ok. I do really miss Kaat. He and Singleton made a great team.
2008-06-15 12:51:31
73.   mehmattski
Wang for pinch runner!
2008-06-15 12:51:53
74.   RIYank
Jesus, that was great strategy. I mean, not that Wang was going to double them in, but, holy crap.
2008-06-15 12:52:20
75.   rbj
69 I'd say Oswalt's on his last batter.
2008-06-15 12:52:47
76.   Eirias
Based on Gameday, how did Wang even hit that?
2008-06-15 12:53:01
77.   ny2ca2dc
Wang got down the line pretty good!
2008-06-15 12:53:42
78.   Jeb
71 hey RI
2008-06-15 12:54:00
79.   RIYank
77 He did, compared to his batterymate especially.
2008-06-15 12:54:49
80.   RIYank
76 It was a bunt -- does Gameday say it was a bunt?
2008-06-15 12:54:53
81.   mehmattski
76 Heh, I guess pitch f/x has another day off? The pitch was shoulder height and inside, and Wang punched at it, sending it right to Oswalt.
2008-06-15 12:54:56
82.   Eirias
Of course Wang didn't slide. He better not slide.
2008-06-15 12:55:05
83.   Bama Yankee
68 You were just a couple miles west of here. Sorry to here about the ER trip.

Yeah, the trip to the Stadium was great. I read the game thread later that night (thanks for all the shout outs). Everything went great (except the final score). You should take the Stadium tour if you get a chance, it was well worth the 20 bucks.

2008-06-15 12:56:29
84.   mehmattski
Tejada Betemits one!

I think Wang would have been safe anyway.

2008-06-15 12:56:33
85.   RIYank
Gameday is completely screwed up (I just loaded it). Posada was out at third on the Wang bunt. Then Damon got an infield hit -- they tried to get Cano at second. So the bases are loaded for Jeter. (For you Gameday watchers)
2008-06-15 12:56:49
86.   Jeb
83 yeah I did the tour a couple years ago, but will try again on Friday. Did you have trouble getting tickets? What time did you have to get to the park to get tour tix? I am hoping to sit in Pete's seat.
2008-06-15 12:57:31
87.   RIYank
And by 85 'Cano' I of course meant 'Wang'. I bet a lot of people get them mixed up. Or maybe only morons.
2008-06-15 12:57:48
88.   mehmattski
85 Tried to get Wang at second.

Full count on Cap.

2008-06-15 12:58:32
89.   RIYank
Jeter knocks in two, but it may be very, very costly... Wang is doubled over, pointing at his foot. He's hurt, for sure.
2008-06-15 12:58:37
90.   rbj
That might be a very costly run.
2008-06-15 12:58:55
91.   Yankees Brasil
Fuck. That can't be good.
2008-06-15 12:59:18
92.   mehmattski
Oh no. Wang hurt himself scoring from second. He stumbled and pulled up lame. He's pointing towards his ankle. He had to be lifted down the dugout steps.

Fucking interleague play. Fucking National League.

2008-06-15 12:59:18
93.   ny2ca2dc
2008-06-15 12:59:24
94.   cult of basebaal
oh, crap
2008-06-15 12:59:33
95.   Jeb
oh shit.
2008-06-15 12:59:45
96.   williamnyy23
If Meacham was waving him home, he should be fired immediately.
2008-06-15 12:59:54
97.   RIYank
Well, rbj, you were wrong about Oswalt being on his last batter, but certainly correct about preferring to have your starting pitcher off the bases.
2008-06-15 13:00:14
98.   cult of basebaal
i don't know, it might be his knee
2008-06-15 13:00:19
99.   ny2ca2dc
You've got to be frigin kidding me man
2008-06-15 13:00:49
100.   cult of basebaal
96 he was fine until after he passed third, maybe 1/3 of the way to home
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-15 13:00:58
101.   Yankees Brasil
96 Why? It's not his fault Wang got hurt. Blame it on the field, interleague play or Wang's shoes, but not the 3rd base coach. He was doing his job.
2008-06-15 13:01:38
102.   Jeb
Looked like an ankle.
2008-06-15 13:02:03
103.   rbj
Blame Bud Selig for interleague play.
2008-06-15 13:02:13
104.   Jeb
2008-06-15 13:02:37
105.   RIYank
98 It looked like he was indicating his ankle.
Good, another run. Hard to think about that now, though. Damn.
2008-06-15 13:02:53
106.   rbj
97 Yup. Maybe Girardi should instruct his pitchers to strike out every time.


2008-06-15 13:03:11
107.   Eirias
We lead 9-0 and I couldn't care less.
2008-06-15 13:03:12
108.   mehmattski
Well at least the game isn't in doubt anymore. Still, this feels almost as bad as the Phil Hughes hamstring game.
2008-06-15 13:03:20
109.   williamnyy23
100 It doesn't matter. He should have had his hands up immediately upon contact. If Wang is hurt it could mean the Yankees season. You could see from earlier action that Wang had no idea how to run the bases. By waiving him around, Meacham was inviting disaster. Such an error is monumental and he should be fired for making it.
2008-06-15 13:03:27
110.   Jeb
best case 2 weeks..I can accept that.
2008-06-15 13:03:29
111.   monkeypants
92 etc. There is a lot of blame to go around. First of all, it is unconscionable that pitchers at the ML level can't run the bases with some basic competence. That said, if they can't, the third base coach has to be cognizant of the fact and run the player according. Finally, if the run was so important, perhaps it would be better to carry a PR rather than a third C for interleague play.
2008-06-15 13:03:37
112.   RIYank
Too bad I can't really enjoy all this hitting.
2008-06-15 13:03:58
113.   cult of basebaal
2008-06-15 13:04:03
114.   mehmattski
104 You can't get an MRI until the swelling goes down. If it's his ankle, probably not until Tuesday.
2008-06-15 13:04:16
115.   Jeb
well a muted Yay to our buddy Pythagorous.
2008-06-15 13:05:02
116.   Eirias
How soon, if ever, do we find anything out?
2008-06-15 13:05:27
117.   cult of basebaal
110 source?
2008-06-15 13:05:39
118.   mehmattski
Hitting the man after giving up a homer is grounds for immediate ejection, according to almost every baseball video game I've ever played.
2008-06-15 13:05:45
119.   ny2ca2dc
This is just terrible. Poor Wanger. God damnit. Who want to meet at the GWB. Maybe he just stubbed his toe.

But if it's an ankle, those can take a damn long time - I'm still recovering from a bad one first week of March. And I just want to walk (and maybe run), not pitch.

2008-06-15 13:05:53
120.   Bama Yankee
86 We got there about 20 minutes before tickets went on sale at 9am. There was already a small line (about 30 people), but we had no trouble getting tickets. I would think if you got there between 8:30 and 9:00 you should be able to get tickets.
2008-06-15 13:06:01
121.   Jeb
we should know what hurts in 3 innings.
2008-06-15 13:06:31
122.   Jeb
120 12pm tour?
2008-06-15 13:06:44
123.   nick
109 william's absolutely right here--I mean, suppose the chance of a broken ankle is 1%? It's still an absolutely unconscionable risk....
2008-06-15 13:06:59
124.   rbj
Man, this is turning into a laugher and I don't care.
2008-06-15 13:07:12
125.   RIYank
Wow. Maybe our batters are really pissed off about Wang getting hurt? They are just wailing.
2008-06-15 13:07:32
126.   williamnyy23
119 If it's a sprained ankle, the best case is three weeks and the worst is the entire season. Remember, Hughes was shutdown an additional month with a grade 2 strain.
2008-06-15 13:07:42
127.   Yankees Brasil
Yanks are pissed CMW got hurt and are crushing the ball now.
2008-06-15 13:08:24
128.   ny2ca2dc
They better stay this hot. Whoever replaces Wang ain't going to be good.

Too damn bad Kennedy is still lame. What's up with Horne?

2008-06-15 13:09:02
129.   nick
I mean, the difference between 4-0 and 5-0 with our ace on the mound? And you send him for that?

Ankle, argh--could miss two starts, could miss two months....

2008-06-15 13:09:14
130.   ny2ca2dc
Actually, what about just starting Dan Geise?
2008-06-15 13:09:25
131.   Jeb
119 don't be God-o-phobic now.. ;o)
2008-06-15 13:09:49
132.   williamnyy23
If an executive takes a risk that could destroy a company's year, they are fired. We are seeing it now with the subprime problems. In this case, sending Wang on that ball (not a gapper, but a hard single right at the right fielder), Meacham was inviting disaster. His job as third base coach is not an entitlement. He made a decision that could sink the Yankees year.
2008-06-15 13:10:48
133.   Jeb
time to go get CC?
2008-06-15 13:11:37
134.   ny2ca2dc
132 I would agree, but only because he's sucked all year. Really, what would it take to get Bowa back? He'd help Cano too. $1 million? Could any decision be easier? Anyone know how coaches contracts work, could Bowa conceivably ditch LA?

And yes I'm aware there's a zero chance of this happening.

2008-06-15 13:11:46
135.   williamnyy23
Also, forget about the ankle injury. Sending Wang could have invited a play at the plate.
2008-06-15 13:12:39
136.   mehmattski
132 Maybe they should fire Jeter for deciding to hit a sharp single....
2008-06-15 13:12:57
137.   ny2ca2dc
133 It's always that time.

I'd rather just see Giese finish this game.

2008-06-15 13:13:35
138.   williamnyy23
136 That's a silly comparison.
2008-06-15 13:13:39
139.   Bama Yankee
122 Yes, we took the 12pm tour. They sell tickets for both tours from 9-10am. My understanding is that they sell 20 walk-up tickets for each of those two tours but they might schedule another tour if there is a large enough demand. Oh, you should also purchase the media guide ($20) they offer at the end of the tour, it is definitely a collectors item.
2008-06-15 13:14:11
140.   RIYank
Wait, so, William, you think they should have put in a pinch runner for Wang?
2008-06-15 13:14:22
141.   williamnyy23
137 It would make perfect sense to Giese some innings because he is the logical candidate to take Wang's spot in the rotation.
2008-06-15 13:15:12
142.   Jeb
139 Thanks! I will run up their in the morning and get the tix.
2008-06-15 13:15:45
143.   ny2ca2dc
141 And he hasn't pitched since Joba's previous start. Honestly, starter out in the fifth of a blowout, is there any better time to use the long man?
2008-06-15 13:16:01
144.   RIYank
Holy cow, A-Rod.
Everything is fantastic today, except for the One Big Thing.
2008-06-15 13:16:07
145.   nick
what's the possible upside, in any sane calculation of risk, for an AL team trying to score your ace pitcher with a 4-0 lead in the 6th inning at an NL park?

I mean, coaching does not involve that many decisions--if he costs Wang more than a start or two, that outweighs everything else he's done all year in terms of wins and losses.

2008-06-15 13:16:08
146.   williamnyy23
140 No, but I think it's bleedingly obvious that you have to have him running base-to-base. By waiving him home on a hard hit single, you were begging for something bad to happen.
2008-06-15 13:16:26
147.   Jeb
UPDATE: Suzyn and John say it's an injury to the right foot ... not sure where exactly in the foot.
2008-06-15 13:17:21
148.   nick
LoHud says foot injury, not ankle, fwiw...
2008-06-15 13:17:30
149.   monkeypants
133 You mean, is it time to really, really overpay for CC because your bargaining position is weakened even more?
2008-06-15 13:17:37
150.   williamnyy23
145 Even on a softball field, you have your pitcher take it easy on the bases. How Meacham's foremost thought wasn't don't do anything to get Wang injured is beyond me.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-06-15 13:18:27
151.   williamnyy23
147 Are they guessing about that? If so, I am not sure how accuare that is. Either a way, an injured foot could also keep Wang out for a very long time.
2008-06-15 13:18:27
152.   RIYank
Huh. I don't get it. Any base-running is risky. So, if you're against taking any risk with your ace, you have to be in favor of pinch-running every time he gets on.
2008-06-15 13:18:33
153.   ny2ca2dc
I'm actually worried it's another linsfranc.
2008-06-15 13:19:14
154.   Jeb
149 That's exactly what I meant.
2008-06-15 13:19:32
155.   ny2ca2dc
William is right, the bigger risk wasn't just running the bases, it was the expected play (read: collision) at the plate. I'm surprised there wasn't one.
2008-06-15 13:19:43
156.   Just fair
I am of the belief that Wang could have slipped in the shower this morning. Why the f does anyone have to be blamed? It's baseball. When your on base and there is a hit you run the bases. Your objective is to score. Is Meacham a bonehead? Probably. But c'mon. Blame Damon for keeping the inning going. Blame Tejada for dropping the force out. Blame Jeter for getting a hit with the bases loaded. Blame the sun for coming up today.
2008-06-15 13:19:53
157.   Jeb
151 nope, clubhouse report.
2008-06-15 13:20:06
158.   RIYank
I wonder how you hurt your foot rounding third. Odd. I've never hurt my foot running. I mean, I've never hurt either of my feet running.
2008-06-15 13:20:52
159.   williamnyy23
152 Waking up in the morning is risky, but some things are more risky than others. Having Wang jog into 3B on the hit has little risk...asking him to round the bag and score on a sharp single is much more risky. The value of that extra run doesn't mitigate against the potential risk.
2008-06-15 13:21:37
160.   ny2ca2dc
158 You're a very, very lucky RIYank.
2008-06-15 13:22:29
161.   RIYank
155 I certainly don't agree with that. Wang could just be instructed not to collide. Easy enough.

156 I blame you. It's because of your spelling. I haven't exactly worked out how yet. Something about 'feat'?

2008-06-15 13:22:37
162.   Bama Yankee
142 Have a fun and safe trip, Jeb.

I'm out. I gotta go eat some shrimp...

Get well soon, Wang.

2008-06-15 13:24:30
163.   Just fair
159 There wasn't even a throw home on the play. Meacham had a better look than anyone that's currently watching this game on tv and posting right now.
Oh, and we may as well blame Wang for pitching well today and even still being in the game in the 6th inning. : )
2008-06-15 13:24:32
164.   cult of basebaal
man, so much for ash bats being the solution to the shattering-maple-bat problem
2008-06-15 13:24:39
165.   RIYank
159 I guess I'd have to see some kind of real evidence to be convinced of that. What is the risk of a pitcher getting injured scoring from second on a single?

160 In so many ways!

2008-06-15 13:25:17
166.   williamnyy23
156 That logic makes it seem like sending Wang home on a hard hit single is the same as performing daily functions. Not only is the former unnecessary, but the latter carry a much lesser level of risk. When you make a decision that could destroy a season, you should be blamed. Baseball is no different from any other industry. When your decision is catastrophic, you pay the price.
2008-06-15 13:25:40
167.   mehmattski
164 I think the issue is the high-velocity, high-mass shrapnel that poorly-made maple bats create. Ash bats sort of disintegrate, whereas the maple bats create giant chunks.
2008-06-15 13:25:48
168.   ny2ca2dc
161 Then why even send him? I don't really care to argue weather this means Meacham should be fired, but I don't see how the send can be seen as anything as a mistake. Just like I was cool with want trotting into second (instead of sliding), I would be happy for Wang to have just held at third. You just can't risk your ace for one run in a 4-run ballgame!

You know, there is a chance it's just a foot cramp or something. That can hurt a lot and go away as quick as it comes on. We should be so lucky.

2008-06-15 13:27:46
169.   Just fair
My guess is Wang tweaked his foot going into second base a tad awkwardly on Damon's chopper up the middle. And then aggravated it rounding third. Then again, I don't know anything. 161 u meen pheet.
2008-06-15 13:27:54
170.   williamnyy23
165 I certainly can't quantify it, but I would think having your pitcher who rarely if ever runs the bases (Singleton and Kay were discussing this before the fact) turn it on and try to score a fifth run just doesn't seem to make any sense, regardless of how you calculate the risk factor. I can't imagine that the 3B coach wouldn't have an automatic stop sign. Becaus he didn't, the Yankees are looking at a devestating injury with long reaching implications.
2008-06-15 13:29:01
171.   RIYank
168 I would be happy with the decision to hold him at third, too. My guess is that Meachem thought Wang could jog home safely (and that was true, wasn't it?). But I don't know.

Seriously, what kind of foot injury does someone get running home?

2008-06-15 13:29:31
172.   Jeb
166 FWIW I think that sending a pitcher in a 4-0 game is a bad idea. Y'all saw how un-fluidly he went into second. He lacks experience as a good baserunner. Just for the sake of not getting thrown out, I think being conservative is best. BUT, the injury risk is also there an it's a pretty obvious risk. So William, good buddy, I'm with you on this one. I'm not sure you fire Meacham, but sending him to AA might remind him of something.

But I do respect the other points.

2008-06-15 13:29:41
173.   monkeypants
167 If I ruled the universe--bwahahahah--I would eliminate the tiny-handled bats that have become so popular. Thicker handles, fewer broken bats methinks.
2008-06-15 13:29:58
174.   rbj
As Wang's foot was on the ground I suspect a worm was responsible. They probably had a contract out on him.
2008-06-15 13:31:08
175.   RIYank
"... regardless of how you calculate the risk factor."

That's what I meant earlier. You think any risk is unacceptable? But in that case, you'd have to remove him for a pinch runner. If not, then there is no way to make a rational judgment without knowing what the risk is.

2008-06-15 13:31:41
176.   williamnyy23
172 That it was a colossal mistake I think is beyond debate. Sure, yuo could argue about whether Meacham deserves the axe, but I think it was such a blatantly stupid decision, that I would not want him in a position to make another one.
2008-06-15 13:31:58
177.   mehmattski
I just went back to see the replay that YES ran after the pitching change.

Not only was Wang already at third base before the right fielder had the ball (because it was a 3-2 count and he was running on the pitch), but Johnny Damon was rounding second and was half-way to third. If Meacham had held Wang at that instant, then Damon would have been out.

I guess one could say that Meacham should still hold Wang in that situation and have Damon be tagged out. But with 2 outs and a 3-2 count, everyone is taught from little league to be running as far as they can on the pitch.

2008-06-15 13:31:59
178.   Just fair
166 Then order Wang and every other pitcher to plant their heels on the back chalk of the batter's box and keep the bat on their shoulders. Oswalt could have broken Wang's hand when he was trying to bunt. It is baseball.
2008-06-15 13:33:06
179.   williamnyy23
175 No...I don't think any risk is unacceptable. I think actions that carry higher levels of relative risk and also offer very little reward should be avoided at all costs.
2008-06-15 13:33:36
180.   RIYank
Oh, come on, Edwar. Good heavens.
2008-06-15 13:34:57
181.   williamnyy23
177 Wang was rounding because Meacham was waiving. What he should of done is throw up his hands to stop Wang as soon as Jeter hit the ball. Pence was charging on the play. There was a chance that a good throw would have led to a play at the plate. If Damon sees Wang coasting into second base, he wouldn't have run aggressively toward 3B.
2008-06-15 13:35:02
182.   cult of basebaal
167 actually, mlb states that it's the opposite, "A 2005 study commissioned by MLB and the union revealed that ash bats do not typically shatter into many pieces while maple bats have a tendency to explode."
2008-06-15 13:35:19
183.   RIYank
That's more like it.
2008-06-15 13:35:46
184.   monkeypants
It is a sad state of affairs when running the bases poses a profound risk to professional athletes. They do still run during workouts and in the off season and such, don't they? Sprints and all?
2008-06-15 13:35:59
185.   RIYank
179 I don't understand what that means. Higher than what? How little is 'very little'?
2008-06-15 13:36:28
186.   Just fair
181 There was no throw to the plate. Even with Wang limping home the last 1/3.
2008-06-15 13:36:43
187.   ny2ca2dc
177 Well, maybe that changes things, the replay on MLB.TV made the play look a lot closer - Robinson Cano was giving the 'slide' sign to Wang at first.
2008-06-15 13:37:10
188.   RIYank
184 I'm sure Wang does, no doubt in my mind. (Wasn't his regime described in the SI article?)
When was the last time a pitcher got hurt running the bases?
2008-06-15 13:38:36
189.   williamnyy23
178 Just because it is baseball doesn't mean you abandon all common sense. Because Meacham was probably thinking "it's just baseball), the Yankees may have lost their best starter for a very long time. I can't accept that approach. I'd prefer that my 3B coach actually allow common sense to factor into his decision.
2008-06-15 13:39:47
190.   monkeypants
188 For that matter, do pitchers get hurt at a higher rate than position players when running the bases? Is is safer to send Wang or, say, Giambi?
2008-06-15 13:41:41
191.   williamnyy23
185 Just by watching Wang run, I thought about and Kay and Singleton discussed how awkward he looked running. Maybe my powers of observation are superior, and Kay and Singleton have ESP, but it seems to me that having Wang do any more running than necessary would have been an unneeded risk.
2008-06-15 13:41:55
192.   ny2ca2dc
PeteAbe is speculating an Achilles injury. I don't see how that could've happened. I'm most worried about an injury to the planter facia, ankle ligaments, metatarsals (stress fracture or linsfranc), or hopefully just a cramp. Maybe a jammed toesy
2008-06-15 13:43:04
193.   RIYank
190 I dunno. And, more to the point, I'm pretty sure that 'common sense' can't answer your question.

Pete Abe is speculating that it could be an Achilles. Even 'speculating' is too strong. He's speculatively wondering whether it might be. Also, he suggests that the replacement pitcher could be McCutcheon, Karstens, or IPK back from the DL.

2008-06-15 13:44:08
194.   RIYank
What's a linsfranc?
2008-06-15 13:44:20
195.   Just fair
189 My common sense dictates that Wang should be able to run less than 180 feet without pulling up lame. Wang could have pulled a hamstring running full speed and then pullling up at Mecham's stop sign.
Then what?
2008-06-15 13:44:25
196.   williamnyy23
190 I also wouldn't send Giambi in that situation. That play and the situation in the game screamed for caution with a less than agile base runner. The fact that it was your ace running makes it all the more horrendous.

I also don't get the argument that Pence made a bad throw anyway. As Meacham is sending Wang, he doesn't know what throw will be unleashed. If Pence fires a strike, it could have been a close play. Why you'd send your starter into that scenario is beyond me.

2008-06-15 13:45:00
197.   mehmattski
I think Wang should pitch from within a bubble. I mean, he might get hit with a comebacker! Not putting Wang in a bubble is an unacceptable risk.

The blame goes on the National League for continuing to play under arcane rules of baseball. No one watches baseball to see pitchers stumble around the basepaths and swing feebly at breaking pitches.

Wang was running at full speed because it was a 3-2, two out situation. Demanding that he suddenly stop at third base would be unexpected, and may have led to an injury as well.

2008-06-15 13:45:22
198.   ny2ca2dc
Checking RiverAveBlues, the last time Horne pitched was Friday (the 13th), and put up this line: Alan Horne: 6.1 IP, 9 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 3 BB, 3 K, 10-6 GB/FB - 52 of 88 pitches were strikes (59.1%)

If not Giese, maybe time to get him a cup of coffee, depending on Wang's prognosis.

2008-06-15 13:46:22
199.   williamnyy23
195 That's why you give him the stop sign and instruct him to run base-to-base. By preparing for risk, you can avoid the damaging outcomes. I guess Meacham also decided to ignore the visual evidence and gamble that Wang could make it 180 feet. Well, he was wrong and the Yankees are now going to pay.
2008-06-15 13:46:41
200.   mehmattski
192 Yeah, folks who pull an Achilles tendon while running usually jump straight up in the air, while Wang just stumbled off to the side.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-06-15 13:47:42
201.   ny2ca2dc
194 What Brian Bruney has. the second metatarsal (that's the long bone connecting the toe to the base of the foot) sort of fits into a keyway in the base of the foot, and when it gets wrenched out, that's a linsfranc. (No, i'm not a doctor, just have spent way too much time in podiatry waiting rooms, reading the posters). it generally tears up the ligaments holding stuff in place, and sometimes breaks the metatarsal.
2008-06-15 13:47:56
202.   ms october
194 - what bruney has:

200 yeah pete used to cover basketball he should know what it looks like when you have an achilles injury

2008-06-15 13:48:21
203.   Just fair
197 Bubble Boy was just on the other day. It's an incredibly stupid, yet funny movie.
And I agree with you. Wang should have been in one of those giant, plastic, hamster spheres. : )
2008-06-15 13:48:22
204.   RIYank
197 You obviously need an MRI on your common sense.

By the way, our team seems to be able to score lots of runs when they aren't trying to score. I'm pretty sure Cano wasn't trying. What does this tell us?

a. Baseball is a ko-an
b. Do or not do, there is no try.
c. All those people who complain about players not caring, not trying, etc., have everything backwards.
d. ________________

2008-06-15 13:48:45
205.   cult of basebaal
193 if i had to bet, i'd bet Scary Fly Ball Guy, just because he's already on the 40, though maybe McCutcheon opened some eyes with his recent pitching ... we could move albaledejo from the 15 to the 60

or we could call up david robertson for the pen and try giese for a couple of starts

i image IPK goes down to AAA for at least a couple of starts, he might be the long term answer, or it might be Horne

in any case, get well soon CMW, get well soon ...

2008-06-15 13:49:33
206.   rbj
Up to a baker's dozen now and it's still doom & gloom. Frak! I hate injuries to Wang. Why couldn't Pavano have taken that injury.
2008-06-15 13:49:40
207.   williamnyy23
197 You keep resorting to exaggeration, which seems very silly to me. Wang is a pitcher. You can't protect him from those risks. He isn't, however, a player used to running the bases. We saw an example on his route to 2B. There was no reason to take extra risks with him on the bases. Instead of reading the situation, Meacham made a tragic error. This isn't simply a case of bad fortune.
2008-06-15 13:50:34
208.   RIYank
201 Ouch. And you do make it sound like a plausible injury here. If he just landed hard on the wrong part of the foot.
2008-06-15 13:51:40
209.   ny2ca2dc
208 Ya, that's what happened to Bruney - when he was covering first.
2008-06-15 13:51:58
210.   rbj
Oooh, a Posada at first sighting.
2008-06-15 13:52:15
211.   mehmattski
199 So then the whole coaching staff is to blame. If the instruction "One base at a time" is not given to Wang ahead of time, then Wang will follow the normal rule "run on anything" with two outs and the bases loaded. To stop a runner at the very moment he thinks he's headed for home has traditionally led to many more injuries than simply continuing to run.

That is, putting on the breaks is the unacceptable risk.

2008-06-15 13:52:33
212.   Just fair
Exaggeration and tragic error in the same post is silly.
2008-06-15 13:52:36
213.   RIYank
206 No, it wasn't a groin injury, just his foot.

Oh, right, I see what you mean.

2008-06-15 13:54:06
214.   RIYank
209 Which is why pitchers should never, ever cover first. Why take the risk? It's senseless.

212 Oh, to the contrary! Exaggeration and tragic error in the same post is art.

2008-06-15 13:56:06
215.   RIYank
Not that this will settle anything, but here's what Pete Abe just said:

Those of you in the comments section blaming Bobby Meachem are wrong. Wang was running on the play and there was no play at the plate. He scored without a play even though he got hurt. It was just a freak thing.

Pitchers run almost every day before games and they run hard. Wang runs almost every day, either on his own or with the other pitchers. He just got hurt, it happens.

2008-06-15 13:56:34
216.   Just fair
Eight Belles in the Derby was a tragedy. This is probably a D.L. stint.
2008-06-15 13:57:29
217.   williamnyy23
211 If the whole staff hasn't instructed their pitchers to use caution at the plate and on the bases, then yes, they are to blame. In this case, Meacham is the one who waived Wang around.

Unless Wang is Rickey Henderson, there is no way he was already close enough to third base that he couldn't have coasted with a quick stop sign. It's not like Wang was running with his head down with the intention of blowing a stop sign.

2008-06-15 13:57:29
218.   mehmattski
Here's the replay, by the way. Enjoy it, until Google tells me to take it down.

I don't see any way that Meacham could have stopped Wang in enough time to avoid the risk of pulling something by putting on the breaks.

2008-06-15 14:00:56
219.   mehmattski
217 If the staff instructed its pitchers to not run on anything with the bases loaded, tw outs, and a 3-2 count, then they are to blame.
2008-06-15 14:01:09
220.   williamnyy23
216 If Wang misses an extended period, it is tragic in the context of the Yankees chances. I assumed everyone would understand that context. Otherwise, it's silly to say Eight Belles was a tragedy. The earthquake in China was tragic.
2008-06-15 14:01:31
221.   mehmattski
219 Er, they would be to blame for instructing the pitchers in an idiotic fashion.
2008-06-15 14:01:37
222.   ny2ca2dc
If you go to gameday, they have the clip of the play up. It wasn't nearly as close as I thought - Wang was almost at third when Jeter made contact, as he was running on 2 outs and a full count. The first time I saw it on the Astros feed it looked way, way closer. He really was able to just trot in. Also, he rounded third quite softly and conservatively, and didn't appear to pull up until a few steps after the bag. So I got no idea what could've happened.

After the play, he was standing with hands on knees, pointing to what looked like his toes. So maybe a stress fracture, or something. i duno.

2008-06-15 14:03:00
223.   ny2ca2dc
Giese warming up. So I guess when we finally stumble on a competent long man, we turn him into a middle reliever. great.
2008-06-15 14:04:11
224.   ny2ca2dc
Hah, I guess the umps have dates
2008-06-15 14:05:24
225.   RIYank
222 You're right, it doesn't look like he could have hurt it rounding third. Now my guess is that (someone said this already) he hurt it a little at second, then something aggravated the injury, and (this is probably just wishful thinking) maybe became more concerned than necessary and decided to hop in the rest of the way.
2008-06-15 14:05:37
226.   williamnyy23
219 More exaggeration. If you can't see the difference between don't run and don't take extra bases, well, then there's no point discussing.

Instead of coming up with crazy analogies, I'll just simply state that sending your starting pitcher (who ran awkwardly to 2B a few minutes earlier) home on a hard hit single in a game you lead 4-0 is a stupid risk. You don't have any problem taking that chance, or don't think it is a risk at all. Regardless of who is right, Wang could be down for a long time. If I am right, or Meacham was willing to be wrong along with me, Wang wouldn't be on an examining table.

2008-06-15 14:06:28
227.   RIYank
Also, 222 "pointing to what looked like his toes," what else is there, besides his toes, that looks like his toes? Someone else's toes?
2008-06-15 14:06:29
228.   Just fair
220 I assumed you would get my context. Obviously not. Wang getting hurt is unfortunate. Far from tragic.
Damon is risking winning player of the month honors for June if he keeps hitting this way.
2008-06-15 14:08:43
229.   williamnyy23
228 And I assumed you'd get mine. If Wang misses a lot of time, it will be a very tragic event in terms of the Yankees ability to make the playoffs. That is, after all, what are discussing. I don't think anyone is viewing these games in the context of world events.
2008-06-15 14:08:49
230.   RIYank
226 I don't know why you can't see that this is not a question of 'common sense'. If the risk to a pitcher trying to score from second on a single is tiny, then sending him wasn't wrong. This is obvious. We don't know what the risk is, so we don't know if the decision was the proper one. We do know it turned out badly, but that's not the question.
2008-06-15 14:09:29
231.   ny2ca2dc
227 yuk yuk
2008-06-15 14:10:01
232.   ny2ca2dc
Ausmus doesn't have a date.
2008-06-15 14:10:37
233.   rbj
Well at least Mo gets the day off.
2008-06-15 14:10:53
234.   mehmattski
226 Unless he blew out a knee putting on the breaks, not expecting to be told to stop at third after running on the pitch (once again, with two outs, the bases loaded, and a 3-2 count).

"Run on anything" is a fundamental rule of baseball that you learn when you are five years old. Running on the pitch when the count is 3-2 with two outs is something you learn as soon as your league allows runners to take leads. Departure from this strategy needed to be specifically instructed to all involved before the game. If it was not, then Bobby Meacham is not responsible for Wang's injury.

Of course, I could take your strategy and declare that anyone who doesn't agree with me isn't worthy of discussion!

2008-06-15 14:12:11
235.   RIYank
Isn't it ironic that on the one occasion that's plainly Farnsproof, there was no prospect of seeing Farnsworth?

Ironic, not tragic, maybe mildly exaggerated.

2008-06-15 14:12:56
236.   mehmattski
235 With Farnsworth pitching three days in a row, no lead would be Farnsproof...
2008-06-15 14:13:10
237.   williamnyy23
230 My common sense tells me that you don't send your starting pitcher on that play (hard hit single) in this game (4-0 lead), especially after how he ran beforehand (stumbling into 2B). If I was on the field, I would have had my hands up immediately, without a second thought. Not sending Wang would have been obvious to me...I wouldn't have done it. Now, maybe I am wrong, but like I said, if Meacham was wrong like me, Wang would be pitching on Friday.
2008-06-15 14:13:26
238.   RIYank
233 Also yesterday. Also tomorrow. So we're going to be in one of those 'Mo needs work' situations on Tuesday.
2008-06-15 14:13:52
239.   Jeb
234 but you'd be wrong because actually it's anyone who doesn't agree with ME (Jeb) isn't worthy of discussion!
2008-06-15 14:13:53
240.   nick
Giese gets this job? they couldn't get LaTroy to go 2?
2008-06-15 14:15:06
241.   Just fair
It's like one thousand spoons when all you need is a knife.
-A. Morrissette
The lyrics of "Ironic" have given English majors a lot to debate.
2008-06-15 14:15:07
242.   nick
(re: sending Wang)

boys, I'm gonna say something that has never before been said on the internets:

it's a tough call--I understand the arguments on both sides.

2008-06-15 14:15:40
243.   ny2ca2dc
Maybe with the off day Joe just needs to get everyone some work. I duno. Like I said, I would rather have seen Giese come in for Wang and finish the game - another chance to see what he's got as a long man.
2008-06-15 14:16:15
244.   ny2ca2dc
242 and POOF, the toaster explodes.
2008-06-15 14:16:37
245.   RIYank
237 I thought I gave a reason that it isn't a matter of common sense. Then you repeat what your common sense tells you. You don't see the problem with that?
Also, I pointed out that we all agree that the outcome was bad, and I think we all agree that that isn't the issue. And yet, you repeat that doing it your way would mean that Wang wouldn't be injured.
You don't see the problem with the way you are arguing??
2008-06-15 14:16:43
246.   williamnyy23
234 As I've said from the outset, all Yankee pitchers should be properly instructed on taking caution. In this case, it looks very clear to me that a quick stop sign would have not required that Wang stop so quickly that he'd injure his knees (also, a stop sign does allow you to round 3B don't have to halt on the spot).

I didn't say it wasn't worth discussing because you disagree, but because you are using silly exaggerations. When you equate not having your pitcher take extra bases to putting him in a bubble, that doesn't seem to indicate that you want to have a serious discussion.

2008-06-15 14:17:15
247.   mehmattski
237 Of course, Wang ran exceptionally well on the bunt, beating the throw from Loretta easily. So the prior evidence about Wang's running skills was at best 50/50.

Seriously, common sense would have allowed you to process the score, hit situation, and player risk instantaneously? So much so that you would have overrulled 100 years of conventional base-running wisdom?

That's not "common sense," that's "logical processing." I disagree with the logic, but even so, you can't expect Meacham to make that sort of call in a split-second. If there was preparation ahead of time instructing Wang about baserunning situations, maybe then common sense runs into it.

2008-06-15 14:18:01
248.   RIYank
243 I think that was about it, yeah. He figured he could give a bunch of guys an inning apiece with zero cost, because of the day off. And maybe 'needs the work' factored into it.
2008-06-15 14:18:34
249.   ny2ca2dc
247 I do recall mentioning that Wang got down the line awfully well.
2008-06-15 14:18:57
250.   cult of basebaal
damn, damn, damn unlucky 13-0 win
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-06-15 14:19:33
251.   rbj
What a most unsatisfying 13-0 win.
2008-06-15 14:20:15
252.   ny2ca2dc
I'm not going to be able to leave until I hear about CMW. Damnit.
2008-06-15 14:20:59
253.   RIYank
But wait-- I think in Taiwan, 13 is a lucky number!
2008-06-15 14:21:16
254.   RIYank
Okay, I admit I made that up.
2008-06-15 14:21:39
255.   williamnyy23
245 The reason you gave doesn't satisfy me. I don't think it warrants taking a risk that I thought was obvious and disagree fundamentally with sending Wang there. I also happen to think the outcome justifies my position. I can see the argument that it was just a bad break, but I happen to think that taking chances with pitchers on the basepaths invites disaster.
2008-06-15 14:22:37
256.   ny2ca2dc
Thinking about this a bit more, Wang was standing on both feet when he stopped after hitting home. You don't do that when you sprain an ankle - you hit the deck. Maybe he somehow jammed a toe or something, you could stand (not walk) on that.
2008-06-15 14:24:20
257.   williamnyy23
247 I am absolutely saying that Meacham should have factored everything into account BEFORE the base hit, and that the Yankees should be preparing their pitchers on how to run the bases beforehand. If you want to deflect blame from Meacham to Girardi, that's fine, but I don't think a Wang injury is simply a bad is the result of bad coaching.
2008-06-15 14:25:43
258.   RIYank
255 The reason doesn't satisfy you?? I don't get it. You don't think it's obvious that whether the decision was correct depends on the quantitative risk??

Also, "I also happen to think the outcome justifies my position." That's just obviously wrong. If someone claimed that Wang should never throw a slider and a sinker in the same inning, and then he injured himself throwing a sinker after a slider, that would plainly not justify the position; no more does the injury justify yours.

2008-06-15 14:27:18
259.   Jeb
I just think we need to wait and see and all the arguing about whether it was a good idea or a bad idea won't change anything. If the Yanks conclude that Meacham made a mistake he'll be gone, plain and simple.

I think you both have good points.

2008-06-15 14:32:01
260.   RIYank
But I only like arguing when it won't change anything. Otherwise the responsibility becomes overwhelming and I can't think properly.
2008-06-15 14:34:16
261.   williamnyy23
258 I am saying that there is no way Meacham should have considered sending him on that particular play. In my opinion, it makes no sense to have your starting pitcher run hard to take an extra base regardless of the situation, but especially not when you are up 4-0 and there could be a close play at the plate.

The second part works both ways. If I said the Yankees shouldn't have Wang throw 140 pitches because might get hurt, and then he does, wouldn't you say the philosophy is justified by the outcome? Also, throwing a sinker and slider is fundamental to his performance as a pitcher. Taking an extra base is not.

2008-06-15 14:34:44
262.   Jeb
260 my prediction is that he strained something in his foot, his achilles is okay, and he'll miss 2 starts.
2008-06-15 14:35:29
263.   ny2ca2dc
Sterling says Wang injured "his foot, the top of his foot" - that sounds like a stress fractured metatarsal. Runners injury. Could even just be a bruise, I've done that. Hurts like crazy.

Apparently Waldman in 'the next segment' will report on Wang. Why not now?!!

2008-06-15 14:36:23
264.   rbj
Sounds like a strained upper foot via Girardi.
2008-06-15 14:36:40
265.   williamnyy23
262 Girardi has his "we lost" face on in the post game interview. That worries me...losing Wang for more than a start or two would be devestating.
2008-06-15 14:37:14
266.   RIYank
261 I know what you are saying, but I don't see how we can judge whether that's correct unless we know what the risk is. Also,

"If I said the Yankees shouldn't have Wang throw 140 pitches because might get hurt, and then he does, wouldn't you say the philosophy is justified by the outcome?"

No, of course not. By that one outcome? Of course not.

Anyway, I guess we've done this one to death.

2008-06-15 14:38:19
267.   ny2ca2dc
What the hell is a sprain/strain on the top of the foot.
2008-06-15 14:38:23
268.   RIYank
I guess we're all listening to Suzyn, so I won't report what she says.
2008-06-15 14:38:58
269.   Jeb
Suzyn says: sprain on the top of his foot. examined by houston doctor, no machines at stadium. He's going to NYC to get the tests there. He's in a soft cast with crutches and an MRI tomorrow.

Injury occurred when he hit the third base bag.


2008-06-15 14:39:30
270.   ny2ca2dc
God DAMNIT, Waldman saying it was when he hit third base. That plus a "sprain" on the top of the foot sounds like linsfranc. Which is like worst case.
2008-06-15 14:40:23
271.   RIYank
It really didn't look like he got hurt rounding third. I'm wondering if Suzyn is providing more information than she actually has.
2008-06-15 14:40:24
272.   williamnyy23
266 Everthing doesn't need to be quantified to make a judgment. Also, my example with pitches wasn't a great one, but outcomes can justify philosophy.

I think this has been done to death, so I'll let it go. Wang could be out for a while and that really sucks, and I don't the injury was just a bad break.

2008-06-15 14:41:12
273.   Jeb
270 please don't be God-o-phobic.
2008-06-15 14:41:34
274.   williamnyy23
How does a new state of the art ballpark not have an X-ray machine on the premises?
2008-06-15 14:42:18
275.   Jeb
274 but they do have a train!
2008-06-15 14:45:43
276.   RIYank
274 Weird. Makes no sense at all, in fact.
2008-06-15 14:46:29
277.   ny2ca2dc
273 The first time you were clearly joking & I got a chuckle out of it. This second time are you intentionally being... unkind?

274 Seems like MLB would strongly encourage clubs to have x-ray machines at the stadium.

2008-06-15 14:47:32
278.   monkeypants
261 "If I said the Yankees shouldn't have Wang throw 140 pitches because might get hurt, and then he does, wouldn't you say the philosophy is justified by the outcome?"

Come on William, you can do better than that. If you said he shouldn't throw 140 pitches because he might get hurt, you would be backed up by a good deal of research and anecdotal evidence and plenty of articles on the subject. And you would be right even if he didn't get hurt that time--ie, the outcome would not validate the opposing argument.

The same with not sending the pitcher from third, except there is no broad base of evidence on the topic (as far as I know). The fact that one player got hurt in one case does not really prove anything, and so it doesn't go very far at all to validate any particular argument.

Now, I would have been much more impressed if you (or anyone else) had said something before the injury happened: "Hey, i sure hope they are careful with Wang on the bases here with a 2-0 lead" (or similar). Otherwise, it just sounds like after-the-fact griping.

2008-06-15 14:49:05
279.   monkeypants
278 Oops, I just read 272 . You're to let this one go.
2008-06-15 14:52:55
280.   williamnyy23
278 I beat you to it. I already said it wasn't a good example, which is why you shouldn't use analogies when it's just as easy to be explicit: outcomes can justify philosophies.

It doesn't mean anything because was sitting back watching the game and not participating in the game thread, but as soon as Wang reached base, I thought to myself that they'd better have him take it easy. When he stumbled into 2B (and Kay and Singelton discussed about how porrly he looked running), I further thought that the only way he should score would be on a gapper. This isn't a second guess for is something that I thought beforehand, and which I think Meacham or the entire staff should have as well.

2008-06-15 14:54:50
281.   williamnyy23
279 I read 278 before 279 , so I'll again conclude my point on this topic by saying that the Wang injury has really cast a pall on what was the very great week that the Yankees have had all season. Instead of getting to enjoy a 5-1 trip into the off day Monday, we now can look forward to hearing the news on Wang.
2008-06-15 14:56:08
282.   rbj
Well EI is sticking with the YES broadcast. This is unusual, and considering Wang's injury it is frightening.
2008-06-15 14:58:04
283.   dianagramr
Wang's injury pales to Yadier Molina's:
2008-06-15 14:58:30
284.   RIYank
282 Why? Because it makes you think they are circling like vultures?
2008-06-15 14:58:43
285.   ny2ca2dc
Thinking about this a bit more, I suppose a "sprain top of foot" could be an eversion ankle sprain, which might make sense - could be a rolled ankle, but rolled to "other" way, outward rather than the typical inward. But I don't think the pain would be at the toes, WebMD says the pain would be the inside of the ankle. I guess no more playing Dr. House, will just have to wait and see. I just hope (to "goodness") it's not too bad.
2008-06-15 15:00:27
286.   williamnyy23
283 Great...another one of my crusades...maybe this will prompt MLB to finally enforce its rules and ban blocking bases without the ball and crashing into a catcher who already has the ball. Molina's injury has the potential to be tragic in every sense.
2008-06-15 15:02:38
287.   ny2ca2dc
283 Oh my "goodness", that's terrifying. Another data point in opposition to demolishing the catcher/blocking the plate. Though I can't get the replay and the story makes is sound like it could've been one of those legit swipe plays (but it more sounds like the runner demolished Yadiar).
2008-06-15 15:03:15
288.   ms october
just checking back in to see what the news was - thanks for the suzyn recap jeb

282 if it makes you feel any better i am not getting the yes broadcast on ei anymore - they cut it right after the game - no kim jones even

obviously a lot of diasgreement on the "why" - but i think we can all agree that an otherwise really good road trip has a long shadow cast over it - here's hoping for the best case scenario

2008-06-15 15:09:16
289.   dianagramr
More on Molina (no video yet)
2008-06-15 15:11:09
290.   monkeypants
283 You and I agreed about this in a long thread during spring training. I think I wrote then that it would take a really bad injury, probably to a star player, before MLB would get rid of the silly and dangerous collision-at-home play.
2008-06-15 15:14:57
291.   cult of basebaal
hmmm ... have to wait for the video, but maybe this was freakish ... article makes it sound like yadier caught an elbow to the head, which makes me suspect some form of concussion
2008-06-15 15:15:08
292.   rbj
284 Yup. Usually EI just cuts out unless there's something like a no-hitter.
2008-06-15 15:56:26
293.   Schteeve
265 Yeah but then again he pitched like garbage for 6 prior to his last two.
2008-06-15 16:28:05
294.   OldYanksFan
per PeteAbe:
UPDATE, 6:07 p.m.: Here is the statement the Yankees issued from Wang:

"I feel sore. The doctors say I have to go to get an MRI tomorrow.Of course I'm disappointed. And on Tuesday, when I know more, I will talk."

Also, Girardi said he would "be shocked" if Wang makes his next start.

Basically: Hard sayin', not knowin'.

2008-06-15 17:13:53
295.   Jeb
277 I was joking both times. BUT, there are many people who get offended by the "GD" word. Fair is fair after all. You can really take it either way. Either it's a good suggestion to try not to offend others OR it's a good example of someone trying to impose their will on you.

Look, I'm not trying to get cross-ways with you. It's just that even Peter Abraham -- a newspaper reporter -- has referred to JD Drew as "Nancy" Drew and I doubt his newspaper reprimanded him.

2008-06-15 17:15:00
296.   Jeb
294 based on what I've been reading -- the cast and crutches, etc. -- it sounds like a break to me.
2008-06-15 17:22:59
297.   RIYank
The cast, I think, is precautionary; I mean, it's not that they know it's broken, but that they don't know it's not broken. From what Wang said, he definitely needs the crutches, though.

I'm still having trouble imagining fracturing my foot by rounding third base.

2008-06-15 18:33:50
298.   williamnyy23
The more I read, the worse it sounds. It's almost like delaying the inevitable to prepare for the full brunt of the shock. Every vibe seems to suggest Wang is going to miss a very long time.
2008-06-15 20:30:33
299.   horace-clarke-era
Just checking in after the game, and see that there is a lot of silly stuff being said about the 'decision' to send Wang. There WAS no decision, there was no play at the plate or chance of one, he was ambling home. It was a 3-2 pitch guys, forget the 'hard single' stuff, think 3-2 pitch. They were all running on the pitch, you cannot STOP a guy from second in that situation. He scores if he doesn't collapse. Talk about 'possible collision' or 'firing the coach for sending him' is just crazy.

He hurt himself with a too-long awkward step onto the plate looks like. Bad luck. Period. This was nothing close to a 'play at the plate' it was a cruise control run to be scored.

Frustration and regret at a possibly bad injury are only marginal excuses for ranting at Meacham here. Not on this play, anyhow. Remember: 3-2 pitch. Just keep remembering it.

2008-06-15 20:52:37
300.   Mattpat11
299 I agree. If Wang can't run 180 feet on a routine scoring play without his foot exploding, something was going to fuck that foot up.

In happier news, the Yankees won a 2-1 pitching duel, an 8-4 game and a blowout. They just might be coming around and winning all sorts of games.

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