back to previous thread..my pop also said that Mantle could have been the best ever without the booze and injuries..even so his stats are still amazing. But Joe D...what a swing! Photos of him in action always capture something special...
Anyone see Schilling's blog yesterday about Kobe? some guy in LA Times just blasted him for it..so much fun to pile on Mr. Patriotism..
In terms of career OPS+ and WinShares, it goes Mantle (6th, 3rd), Cobb, Mays, Joe (a bunch of OFers) and Junior.
It should be noted that Cobb played 24 seasons (with a 112 OPS+ in his last year), Willy 22 seasons (the last pretty much a dud), Mantle 16 and Joe D. played 13.
So,
B... Ruth 195.6 WS in 22 seasons
HWagner 179.0 WS in 21 seasons
MMantle. 178.4 WS in 16 seasons
Ty Cobb 173.6 WS in 24 seasons
W. Mays 164.6 WS in 22 seasons
Joe D.... 150.9 WS in 13 seasons
Imagine... Cobb play 50% longer then Mickey and almost twice as long as Joe D. Imagine if Joe and Mickey could have played 20 years.
7 not here OYF, 11:20am! :)
Joe D robbed by WWII but how old was he when he retired?
man, still can't get over that strike out info about him and Yogi...impossible!
11 So do I. At some point Giambi is going to look like a really good alternative to Tiexiera for next year... I bet he'd take a Mussina-type 2 yr x 10M per contract. Might be worth it too. Sure looks like it was the injuries that hobbled him, not just age/decline.
8 Remember too that back then, many (most?) pitchers did not try to strike guys out. Pitch to contact was the name of the game.
For example, in 1950 when Yogi struck out just 12 times, Bob Lemon struck out the most batters in the AL with 170 (in 288 IP). Early Wynn led the AL in K/9, with 6.02. Fred Hutchinson of the Tigers led the AL in K:BB, with 1.48.
In comparison, in 2008, CC Sabathia leads the AL in Ks with 87 (in 91.3 IP). Wynn's 6.02 K/9 would be 25th in the AL in 2008, and Hutchinson's 1.48 K:BB would be 41st in the AL.
13 yep...not that i was one of those callnif for his DFAing earlier this year..ummm...but 2 x 10m sounds great. really tired of endless contracts for lumbering slugger types, i say stay away from Tex...
5 i've got no problems with what schilling wrote, he's not the first to call kobe out for slagging his teammates during games and generally behaving like a selfish, self-absorbed prick.
in any case, there are few sports writers who are bigger douche-nozzles than tj simers. he's in an elite class, along with mariotti and plaschke (also from the times, what an awful sports section) of writers whose "opinions" are worse than worthless.
Rasner is giving a clinic in how to pitch. For all the guys that can throw 95mph, all you have to do is pitch. Mix speeds, change the batter's eye level and voila, you're a good pitcher.
I'd prefer the Yanks offer Giambi no more than a 1 year deal - he will be 38 - and for not a lot of dough, either. They are going to pay his $5M buyout - why should they pay him another $10M?
In any case, I am still happy to see him crushing the ball, and I hope he stays healthy.
Rasner got seriously jobbed his last start. I hope he throws another gem to stay on the path to righteousness.
Or something like that. He's certainly off to a good start.
15 If Teixeira could be had for 4 years though . . . and he's not exactly a lumbering slugger. He's got a very good glove and, IIRC, is considered very athletic.
The biggest difference is that Tex will be 29 next year; Giambi was 31 when he played his first season in pinstripes. Those 2 years can make an awful lot of difference.
16 totally unfamiliar with the LA Times so take our word for it. But Kobe gets a raw deal, MJ did the same (if not worse) to his teamamtes...
And Schilling still a complete buttwipe...
23 Just remember, Kennedy is all of 23. Rasner is 27 and was released by the Nationals (who now have Ty Clip in their rotation). I think both Hughes and IPK will be just fine, it just might take some time. The key is for the Yankees to stay with them.
27 And Dodger Thoughts had a post today wondering why Kuo (one of their best relievers) never pitches while Scott Proctor is brought in to every game even though he sucks.
Hmmm...where have I heard something like that before?
Giambi said he would LIKE to play another 3 years. Shef got 2 years at $14m and Jason almost always has better numbers.
What's a .900+ OPS guys worth? Neither Beltran or Sori are consistantly at .900 and they make $17-18m. Drew makes $15m. If Jason is healthy at the end of the year, the Yankee's best bet might be to exercise their option, which would cost $17m, but only a one year commitment.
30 We rarely agree, but I'm with you on this one. If Giambi stays healthy and hits and shows he can play some in the field, the Yanks should strongly consider resigning him. I would by him out for 5 million and then offer a two year deal--for how much, I have no idea. 10 million/year? 12 million/year?
41 ok, I'll burn in hell for this, but what should the A's announcers say if they think the ump is giving Duchscherer a small strike zone this evening?
24 i live in LA, so trust me on this, Kobe would have to slaughter tommy lasorda, defile the corpse and then make him into cupcakes to serve to schoolchildren before this town would think of turning on him. you can't swing a dead cat over your head around here without hitting a kobe apologist.
frankly, as great a player as he is, he seems a complete prick of a teammate
back to the matter at hand, there's been a lot of nice curveballs in this game ...
oopsies, big g ... good thing you're strong with bat!
CC might be on the block, but won't he be cheaper as a FA? Cleveland will want at least 2 or 3 players/prospects. Plus, I'd like to see how he finishes the year.
52 I couldn't remember what his option was for next year--I thought it was 25 million or so. Anyway, lets say it's 22 million. If you can keep Giambi for 22 million/1 year, why not spend 25 or million for two years (including the option)? Basically, for the same cost (a bit more) you get twice as much service. The worst case scenario would mean that you cut him and eat the money, which you would have to pay anyway to pick up his option.
The inability to hit with men in scoring position and play adequate defense is keeping this team from going on a winning streak. They could probably survive one or the other, but both makes winning consistently very difficult.
58 mmm..me neither. wow, remember when Kevin Brown got the first 100mil contract for a pitcher and how amazed everyone was? now seems standard...and stil incredibly stupid...
watching Gameday, were those hard-hit balls of Rasner?
59 It's $22, but you save the $5... so it's a Net of $17 if they exercise the option. I don't know if he will go for 2/$20. Thomas got more then that and he's in worse shape. 2/$24 means 2/$29. So what's better?
Considering we would be banned from the Banter if we suggested this a month ago, you think going 2 is wise?
Abreu seems to rarely get off a strong throw. I don't want to absolve Rasner completely, but you have to think an easy error like Giambi's really wrecked his rhythm.
58 CC isn't going anywhere, because no one is stupid enough to trade prospects for a guy who might walk at year's end (even if it nets that team 2 draft picks).
59 Giambi's option is $22M for '09, with the $5M buyout. I still wouldn't take the chance on signing him to a 2 year deal unless it was for peanuts. Let's not forget, the last time he played over 139 games was 2003.
63 Didn't Steve Goldman write an article recently demonstrating that the Yankees are really not hitting that poorly with RISP, that this is a matter of perception over reality?
I don't understand why Girardi leaves his pitchers in to give up a bunch of runs. He did it the other day with Pettitte and now he's doing it again with Rasner. Six runs is obviously not enough.
89 I can't put it all on Rasner. Giambi's error was such a simple play. Pitchers are supposed to pick up their teammates, but when you give away an easy out, it has to have an impact.
90 personally i find it refreshing that he lets a pitcher try to limit the damage instead of going to some clown in the bullpen right away. there was a game last year when rasner, who hadn't given up a run, walked a guy with 1 out in the 4th and torre took him out. maybe 6 runs is a lot, but a lot of it is because of giambi, and it all happened so fast that there was never really an ideal time to go to the bp.
92 Actually, it does not have to have an impact. Giambi's error had nothing to do wth Rasner missing his spots by the plateful. We might as well blame A-Rod and Abreu for throwing off his rhythm by shitting the bed the inning previous. Oh, wait, that I can get on board with.
73 If his option is only 22, maybe it is worth picking it up, then letting him walk as a FA.
It depends if they want to spread the cost out more and thus keep the yearly cost lower. It also depends on how much Giambi wants the security of a two or three year contract, or if he wants to test the market. In other words, would he be willing to sign an extension for cheaper to keep the Yankees from exercising the 5 million option and pushing him to the FA market this year.
As for whether it is "safe" or not, the total number of years don't matter, it's the total cost that is the issue. They have to decide how much resigning Giambi is worth, if anything at all, and then hammer out the years. If he tanks, you simply cut him and eat the additional years, but you still have not spent more than you wanted.
94 The average AL OPS is .734. I would GUESS the average with RSP would be lower, so .715 might be 'averageish'... although the Yankees OPS is .768.... so I guess they are 'Unclutch'?
95 Well said. One of the things that impressed me about Cox/Mazzone was their patience with pitchers when they had a rough inning, especially when all of the hits were not rockets. Of course, they had much better pitchers to work with, but the philosophy is laudable.
106 I think the twin factors of not hitting with men in scoring position and bad defense are clearly the reasons why this has been a .500 team. Pointing that out on every game thread might be repetitive, but both always seem to rear their ugly head. I think the Yankees could overcome one of these, but not both.
108109 I don't think it's nice to leave your starter in there to give up 10 runs. I also think that Ohlendorf might have held them to 4 runs last inning.
Not that it matters much because the Yankees don't look like they are going to score a lot more today.
110 So we're low with RISP but not absurdly so. We can definitely pick that up. The problem with this team is the lack of walks. We used to be patient and knock starters out. Now, we're a bunch of free swingers, we just don't have as many base runners.
Nick, can you find how many chances we've had with RISP compared to the averages?
127 well i don't totally agree with you, but even if we stipulate that that's the case, i don't believe that going to a questionable bullpen for 5+ innings is necessarily a better strategy than sticking with the starter giving up singles. at this point, however, i've had enough.
110 BR.com tracks a stat called tOPS+ which compares the OPS+ of a player/team in a given split (like RISP) to that of the overall OPS+. Here's RISP tOPS+ for the American League:
OPS+ with RISP versus team's Overall OPS+:
Yankees: 87
Red Sox: 92
Blue Jays: 84
Rays: 104
Orioles: 122
130 Thanks, that's a really good stat. It also explains how some teams seem to be overperforming (A's, Twins, White Sox, O's) and how we and Toronto are underperforming. Not Sure how Cleveland is sucking so badly with such good 'timely' hitting. Maybe their overall OPS is very low.
Maybe it's an oversimplification, but this whole season really rides on Cano. Because the Yankees need a nine man lineup, if Cano doesn't have a similar second half to last year, the Yankees will probably not hit enough to overcome mediocre pitching and bad defense. All it takes is converting 5 wins to loses and you miss the playoffs.
140 Well I picked the tOPS+ stat because it illustrates how a team is performing in one particular split relative to their overall performance.
This goes along well with my belief that clutch/situational hitting does not exist. Therefore, deviations from tOPS+ of 100 are mostly due to chance. Although, with a BABIP of .287 with RISP, the Yankees don't appear to be getting all that unlucky...
143 I agree... but I put Jeter right below Cano. We can't have a .700 OPS from the #2 hole. With Abreu, ARod and Giambi following Jeter, his ABs are more important than Cano's. Melky ain't helping, but we expect him to be our '9th best' bat. However, this is a separate problem from the Team OPS w/RISP.
143 The Yankees were middle of the pack in defense last year, as measured by Defensive Efficiency. And really, what matters is the number of balls in play that are turned into outs... and the Yankees were mediocre (14th of 30), not bad.
148 yeah, the fact that we're second in the league in OPS "close and late" (791; league average 704) would support your conclusions......btw how do you find those adjusted ops splits on bb-ref?
156 23rd of 30 with a DE of .696. Incidentally, the Yankees had a .696 last year as well. IIRC, there are usually teams at the extremes early in the season (small sample size) who come back towards the average (around .700). The Yankees were one last year, I remember a post from Cliff about how they were inexplicably at the top of the ranking.
Anyway, the Yankees have the exactly same DE as in 2007, and lower than in 2006 (scored a .706, fourth in the majors).
And on the right hand side of each split it lists the BABIP (Batting average on balls in play), the sOPS+ (relative to league) and the tOPS+ (relative to Yankees overall OPS).
I quickly replaced the NYY with the three-letter code for the other teams to get their rankings. Someday I want to devise a way to sort through it easily, but I've only just started to learn Perl.
159 Right...if the top-10 are great and the bottom-20 are awful, ranking 14 would still be awful. A ranking is a median and not a mean, so it's hard to use one to define average.
160 So, it seems as if the reast of baseball is converting more balls to outs, but the Yankees have remained the same, which would mean they have gotten worse...right?
164 IIRC, a DE of .713 or above is really good. There are 5 teams beating that mark right now, and another 8 teams are within .005 of it. Its possible a lot of teams are really overperforming in terms of DE, in which case, the Yanks' standing may not be so bad come the end of the year.
167 True. I was pulling for Richard; as a scientist I am constitutionally required to support molecular gastronomy. Despite that, Stephanie was a more than acceptable second choice.
171 Me too, but as he said, he definitely choked. That was the first time the entire season I can remember him being told that he had underseasoned something. The great thing about Richard was that he could get all clever, but at the end of the day he cooked fundamentally really well and his food tasted great. Stephanie deserved the win tonight, but if I had to choose a restaurant to eat at, it would be Richard's.
As for Lisa, I live right near Chinatown, where they cook all of her stuff a whole lot better than she does. Ugh, so glad she didn't win, and her comments in the stew room basically ignoring Richard I thought were in really poor taste, especially because he was so clearly upset at the time.
I did not think I would be sitting here watching the end of this game. But here I am. And unfortunately, I cannot use mind control to destroy the person with the puppet behind homeplate. Maybe next time.
Everyone around love them, love them
Put it in your hands
Take it take it
There's no time to cry
Happy happy
Put it in your heart
Where tomorrow shines
Gold and silver shine
You heard it here first, folks
If you need me, I'll be in my office.
How is that possible???
Anyone see Schilling's blog yesterday about Kobe? some guy in LA Times just blasted him for it..so much fun to pile on Mr. Patriotism..
In terms of career OPS+ and WinShares, it goes Mantle (6th, 3rd), Cobb, Mays, Joe (a bunch of OFers) and Junior.
It should be noted that Cobb played 24 seasons (with a 112 OPS+ in his last year), Willy 22 seasons (the last pretty much a dud), Mantle 16 and Joe D. played 13.
So,
B... Ruth 195.6 WS in 22 seasons
HWagner 179.0 WS in 21 seasons
MMantle. 178.4 WS in 16 seasons
Ty Cobb 173.6 WS in 24 seasons
W. Mays 164.6 WS in 22 seasons
Joe D.... 150.9 WS in 13 seasons
Imagine... Cobb play 50% longer then Mickey and almost twice as long as Joe D. Imagine if Joe and Mickey could have played 20 years.
Joe D robbed by WWII but how old was he when he retired?
man, still can't get over that strike out info about him and Yogi...impossible!
For example, in 1950 when Yogi struck out just 12 times, Bob Lemon struck out the most batters in the AL with 170 (in 288 IP). Early Wynn led the AL in K/9, with 6.02. Fred Hutchinson of the Tigers led the AL in K:BB, with 1.48.
In comparison, in 2008, CC Sabathia leads the AL in Ks with 87 (in 91.3 IP). Wynn's 6.02 K/9 would be 25th in the AL in 2008, and Hutchinson's 1.48 K:BB would be 41st in the AL.
in any case, there are few sports writers who are bigger douche-nozzles than tj simers. he's in an elite class, along with mariotti and plaschke (also from the times, what an awful sports section) of writers whose "opinions" are worse than worthless.
I'd prefer the Yanks offer Giambi no more than a 1 year deal - he will be 38 - and for not a lot of dough, either. They are going to pay his $5M buyout - why should they pay him another $10M?
In any case, I am still happy to see him crushing the ball, and I hope he stays healthy.
Or something like that. He's certainly off to a good start.
Soriano out for 6+ weeks with a broken hand (HBP).
The biggest difference is that Tex will be 29 next year; Giambi was 31 when he played his first season in pinstripes. Those 2 years can make an awful lot of difference.
And Schilling still a complete buttwipe...
Hmmm...where have I heard something like that before?
What's a .900+ OPS guys worth? Neither Beltran or Sori are consistantly at .900 and they make $17-18m. Drew makes $15m. If Jason is healthy at the end of the year, the Yankee's best bet might be to exercise their option, which would cost $17m, but only a one year commitment.
Must score at least 2 runs out of this. Please.
Double shite.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153799
frankly, as great a player as he is, he seems a complete prick of a teammate
back to the matter at hand, there's been a lot of nice curveballs in this game ...
oopsies, big g ... good thing you're strong with bat!
Oops! You see see Jason thinking... "Now just don't screw up the throw..."
anyone remember the old SNL skit with "Lord&Lady Douchebag"?
what's the latest on CC Sabathia? if Cleveland nosedives this season will he be on the block?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lgcQUQZBtE
I not sold on CC at 6/$115.
watching Gameday, were those hard-hit balls of Rasner?
Considering we would be banned from the Banter if we suggested this a month ago, you think going 2 is wise?
The memo that reads "Ross Ohlendorf is not a good long reliever" is still stuck in transit, apparently.
Okay, now these balls are being hit hard.
59 Giambi's option is $22M for '09, with the $5M buyout. I still wouldn't take the chance on signing him to a 2 year deal unless it was for peanuts. Let's not forget, the last time he played over 139 games was 2003.
Crap, that's 6. Razner meltdown. Had to happen sometime.
SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We can't get over .500
89 I can't put it all on Rasner. Giambi's error was such a simple play. Pitchers are supposed to pick up their teammates, but when you give away an easy out, it has to have an impact.
It depends if they want to spread the cost out more and thus keep the yearly cost lower. It also depends on how much Giambi wants the security of a two or three year contract, or if he wants to test the market. In other words, would he be willing to sign an extension for cheaper to keep the Yankees from exercising the 5 million option and pushing him to the FA market this year.
As for whether it is "safe" or not, the total number of years don't matter, it's the total cost that is the issue. They have to decide how much resigning Giambi is worth, if anything at all, and then hammer out the years. If he tanks, you simply cut him and eat the additional years, but you still have not spent more than you wanted.
Not that it matters much because the Yankees don't look like they are going to score a lot more today.
Nick, can you find how many chances we've had with RISP compared to the averages?
OPS+ with RISP versus team's Overall OPS+:
Yankees: 87
Red Sox: 92
Blue Jays: 84
Rays: 104
Orioles: 122
Twins: 128
White Sox: 111
Tigers: 99
Royals: 112
Indians: 127
A's: 116
Angels: 112
Mariners: 104
Rangers: 98
The LEAGUE has an OPS 22 pts better with RISP.
The Yankees has as OPS 53 pts worse with RISP.
Those are big numbers.
121 we're tied for 4th with these guys (so now we're 5th), well behind Boston Texas and Toronto...
This goes along well with my belief that clutch/situational hitting does not exist. Therefore, deviations from tOPS+ of 100 are mostly due to chance. Although, with a BABIP of .287 with RISP, the Yankees don't appear to be getting all that unlucky...
Why does Girardi misuse Ohlendorf...he could be an effective short man, but these long stints in blowouts might destroy his confidence.
What does that mean exactly? Would that mean that half the league or more were playing bad defense (ie, no one was "average")?
Anyway, the Yankees have the exactly same DE as in 2007, and lower than in 2006 (scored a .706, fourth in the majors).
http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?team=NYY&year=2008
And on the right hand side of each split it lists the BABIP (Batting average on balls in play), the sOPS+ (relative to league) and the tOPS+ (relative to Yankees overall OPS).
I quickly replaced the NYY with the three-letter code for the other teams to get their rankings. Someday I want to devise a way to sort through it easily, but I've only just started to learn Perl.
As for Lisa, I live right near Chinatown, where they cook all of her stuff a whole lot better than she does. Ugh, so glad she didn't win, and her comments in the stew room basically ignoring Richard I thought were in really poor taste, especially because he was so clearly upset at the time.
Hmm. Maybe its not so uncommon. Manny has only 4. Griffey Jr has only 9. Bonds has only 10.
Put it in your hands
Take it take it
There's no time to cry
Happy happy
Put it in your heart
Where tomorrow shines
Gold and silver shine
Shiny happy people holding haaaaaaaaands....
It leaves me cold...
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