But those guys always had a history of lack of command. With Phil and IPK, the opposite is true. They both have histories of excellent command. So while I am not happy with their performances so far, I do not believe what we have seen is what we can expect for the future.

And both guys have shown, as rookies, that when their command is on, they are both above average (or better) pitchers.

I said in the previous thread that it's hard for us to fathom the pressure on these kids. Even though we say 'we know they will have growing pains', we still hope and quasi-expect quality MLB performances.

We know they are both mature and level headed. We seem to 'know' they can handle the pressure of pitching successfully in NY.

We know Santana, Liriano and many other stud pitchers took a year or 2 to find 'themselves'. Intellectually, we know what Phil and IPK are experiencing is par for the course.

Yet we still hope and quasi-expect quality MLB performances.

Look at Carlos Pena, once he was on a team where there were no expectations on him. He blossomed.

Phil and IPK are kinda like our kids. They need to know we still 'love em to death' even if they fail. I think the super high expectations, the Santana stuff, the 'fall of the Yankees'... all this stuff weighs on them. They have to learn how to crawl before they can walk. I don't doubt their talent. I just hope the fans give these kis the support they need.

This year, like last year, we win with our offense. The team needs to give our pitchers the feeling that no matter how well/poorly they pitch, the team will keep them in the game.

In 2 years it will be different, and we will expect of young pitchers to carry the team. But for now, winning or losing is on the offense. If we give up 10 runs, we have to expect our O to get 11 runs.

It is up to our vets, and especially JD and Jason, to step up. I don't think we have a better chance with Brett and Shelly. Maybe lightning will strike or a midseason trade will change things, but my feeling is this year, we live or die with 'the old guys'.

I think that you may be forcing a false dichotomy, that this is a choice between JD/Jason or Brett/Shelly. I know you are a big fan of defense and count the innumerable balls that JD catches, but at some point you stick Matsui or Duncan in the OF because their bats outweigh JD's glove. Moreover, moving Matsui into LF opens the DH spot for Posada (since he may never catch again at this rate) or the DuncBerg/Betemit platoon.

Similarly, at 1B you have Ensberg/Duncan/Betemit/Posada on any given day. At some point you have to pull the plug on the Giambi Resurrection Project.

So basically, 1] there is no need to go outside of the current roster (+ Duncan, who is only at AAA b/c of Posada's injury) to try to find some offensive solution; 2] there is no reason to be trapped into a simple solution (Gardner for Damon, Duncan for Giambi). Cashman has done a very good job of constructing a much more flexible roster than we have seen in years. They need to start using that flexibility.

I have two comments here. One is a repeat: careful what we wish for. Everyone was so excited (or many here were) about 'the kids', there was grief and dismay at the thought of dealing PKH and/or IPK for the best starter in the game (along with Melky, to be fair). This may very well have been the right move ... but as OYF (sort of) says, it takes time. Where I disagree a bit is his implication that time might be, like, May or June? It may be 2009 or even 2010. And it remains a 'to be seen', Judging talent is a guess, an educated one but ... so it was ALWAYS going to be a bumpy ride this year with two rookies and at least one aging control pitcher and not a lot behind them. That led to my hoping for a sixth starter pick-up all winter and spring.

Next comment: good hitting takes pressure off kid pitchers sometimes, but not always (we did give IPK a 6 run lead last start). But what really takes pressure off a whole team is a manager with some equilibrium and poise. You can kick the vets if they are 'giving away at-bats' which is what Leyland just did in Detroit, but kicking the kids ...? I said it more than once ... the Yankees run last year after the way they started ought to have got Torre manager of the year. Bullpen management? If NO one is throwing well, the middle relief is a landmine for any team. Right now I'd call Girardi a rookie, too. One year in the quiet of Florida does not a New York media manager make. Not out the gate.

In short, I think he and I are saying the same thing, which isn't that uncommon except when the topic is Roger.

But I think if he'd JOINED me in calling for another starter to be signed, Cash might have listened! :)

Digging further, the "projected records" based on offensive statistics has the Yankees at the same place as their actual record. So it's not as if the team is getting unlucky- they're hitting and pitching like a .500 team right now. Last year, the team had scored 27 more runs than they allowed and still were 4 games under .500. This year, they've scored 14 fewer runs than they've allowed, and are in the middle of the pack with both hitting and pitching.

All in all, a very average team so far. I'm much more concerned than I was at this time last year...

That said, I am wondering when, exactly, the offense will come around.

4 DH Posada and then what? Molina's bat over JD's? And have both of our Cs in the same lineup?

Matsui missed a ball that lead to 6 runs. Hard for his bat to make up for that. He is painful to watch in LF. As long as he hits, DH is a fine place for him

At what point is JD's glove worth his bat? .750 OPS? Maybe the problem is not his bat, but his bat leading off? Maybe a .750 OPS batting 9th is OK?

Shelly has a career 7 yr MiLB OPS of .822. Last year, when he exceeded expectations, his OPS against RH pitching was .802.

And as bad as Jason is on D, he is good at scoops. He has already saved a number of errors. Posada at first is NOT better D. If you want Shelly/Ensberg at 1B against LH pitching... fine. Thats maybe 20% of our games.

My point is, unless Jason can't even post a .800 OPS, he seeme to be our best bet at 1B against RH pitching.

And while JD is not longer a great runner, his base running is still a small asset over Mats/Duncan.

I agree we have options within our current roster. I'm saying if we get .750 OPS from JD and .850 OPS from Giambi, we are OK. I think we need to give them enough time for them to prove they CAN'T do that, before alternatives look better.

I may be nuts, but I think Jason is still good for a .850 OPS.... but not if he's not close to an everyday player.

I also agree with you about giving Damon time and even Giambi (less sure about Jason myself, would like to be wrong). But yes, Giambi's scoops have saved Jeter (especially) several times already. We could lead off with Jeter/Melky for now, and wish Cano had his act together to bat 2nd.

Posada as DH? Agreed again, way too soon for that in a 4 year contract! It may get there but ... we really don't want both Cs in the game at once. Is Matsui really and truly stick-a-fork as a LF? If so, means his knee is NOT back, you know.

1) Making Durham, NC part of "Orioles territory"
2) TWC refusing to air the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network because too few people care about Orioles games in North Carolina.

And yet, not being able to watch the game might be a good thing...

13 you captured the feeling well

And I really hope Cashman does not sign a now free Frank Thomas.

That's a specious argument. Posada will have to DH if cannot throw the ball. So, you are going to have a BUC in any case. By keeping Damon in the lineup you are therefore sacrificing either Posada or Matsui.

"Matsui missed a ball that lead to 6 runs. Hard for his bat to make up for that. He is painful to watch in LF."

This to is a somewhat bogus argument. So, Matsui's bad play gets "credit" for ALL the runs that follow? And we assume that he will make such negative plays every single game? Show me the stats.

That he is painful to watch is an aesthetic argument, not a scientific one.

Mark my words.

I can't vouch for the "offense," though.

"At what point is JD's glove worth his bat? .750 OPS? Maybe the problem is not his bat, but his bat leading off? Maybe a .750 OPS batting 9th is OK?"

First, this assumes that he will hit .750 OPS, which he is currently about 60 points below (if I recall). Matsui's career OPS is around .850. Are you convinced that Damon makes up 100 points of OPS with his glove? Moreover, Matsui is streaky and he currently hitting .900+ OPS. Wouldn't it make sense now of al times to stick him into LF and ride the hot streak, since his mat surely will outweigh his glove as long as he is raking?

Yes, a good start would be to move Damon down to 8th or 9th in the lineup. But if he continues to scuffle around .680 OPS, they may have to think about benching him...at least as long as the offense is scuffling.

Finally, you sort of ignored the suggestion that Duncan can stand in LF with a glove tied to his arm.

I wonder if he wants to be a platoon DH?

http://tinyurl.com/62esgu

The money quote:

"Damon is clearly the better fielder when it comes to chasing balls in the gap, and he doesn't have the judgment problems that Matsui has. Having said that, there is very limited evidence, be it statistical or anecdotal, that he redefined play out there. The huge gap between Matsui and Damon is a creative invention, an urban legend generated by the expectations that Damon, as a relocated speedy center fielder, is somehow overqualified to play left."

Up the middle, please, for God's sake.

Please, just meet the baseball.

Geez, the Yankees make everyone look like Carlton and Koufax.

That's not good.

I knew this game was going to be infuriating just be looking at who was pitching for the O's

Even nicer play by Jones.

Oh well, at least that's two well-struck balls.

Here's Jason.

Someone do something with/to Jason.

I know it might just be my imagination and that I don't see Manny everyday, but man, he just never seems to look bad at the dish the way Alex does. He always seems in complete command of the AB, especially in "pressure" situations.

He never seems jumpy or on the defensive. Alex, for his part, seems to enter an AB on the defensive when he's struggling. You just know he's feeling the pressure and will swing accordingly.

Sigh.

Maybe he needs to start wearing his headphones again.

A-Rod, when off, is jumpy and swings at pitches that aren't his pitches. You can see it coming and see him thinking. Manny is sort of the opposite in that you don't see him thinking through it, even if he is

Robby needs to fucking start hitting.

Whatever with Manny, Alex needs to step it up.

He doesn't need to be a superstar (though that would be nice), but Christ, is it too much to ask him to have a representative ab, line a single somewhere with Derek out there on second?

Someone has to drive in runs, you know?

A nice little groundball up the middle!

Ok, Team, keep it coming!

It's on you, Derek.

It's on you.