A heartfelt congrats to the Sox and their fans, winning the Al East in 2008 will be a great accomplishment that you can look forward to all year!

puke

Roughly 400 comments on the last thread all trashing this fraud.

I really thought he was going to stay. His teammates loved him this year, the press for the most part did as well (see RLYW's cover counter), and he won't get more money somewhere else. Guess none of that was enough to overcome his hatred for the city.

0 I think my sample size is small, but there's much less of a ruckus in New England today than there was 3 years ago. Understandable, I supposed, but I wonder if Sox fans already feel that this is their due.

yankz - maybe shelley would be the one to kick his ass.

Living in Boston it is very hard for me to feel congratulatory - but I will say I feel somehwat better than I thought I would - in part because after last year's joke of the Cardinals winning - I am glad the superior team won

a new day.

a new direction.

we're just a scrappy little wild card team undergoing a rebuilding phase.

they have to leak a manager today. positivity.

to be honest, i felt a little guilty rooting for rodriguez. screw him.

he has been 134ed.

2 Or his hatred for, even with all his numbers, always being number two. Which is why I know he won't end up in Boston.

I thought he'd stay, too. Damn.
So. Money to spend, and a new philosophy to pursue...

Free agent pitching? Price (in bodies, not $$$) for Santana?

Is Blalock a free agent?

5 nice spin - and i agree with your post on the last thread about him having made his mind up awhile ago

william in the last thread says Kim Jones heard through someone else that Arod had been planning on leaving since at least September. I'm really, really curious as to what did it. The press? No more sleepovers with Jeter? Still sad about batting 8th?

I hope it was something like "I didn't get along with my teammates." Like he will somewhere else.

4 they are one hell of a team. you have to give them that. they were solid from wire to wire for the most part, and owned the playoffs.

all props should be given, and they are deserved.

props and congrats.

5 I think Bronx Banter should hereafter refer to the date Sunday October 28 2007 as October 134th.

(Either that or Black Sunday.)

11 They just absolutely dismantled the supposed second best team in baseball in a manner I've never seen. Colorado was never close to in it.

8 I don't think so, and anyway, he has a career .699 OPS away from Arlington.

5 134ed?

I think it's less A-Rod's decision and more Boras'

Yes, congrats to Red Sox fans, but it's a little generous to say the Rockies didn't show up. Two one-run games out of four isn't a TOTAL blowout.

For all the hate I have for A-Rod right now, I am grateful for one thing: his opting out during the 3rd inning kept me from dwelling on what was unfolding in Denver. Thank you, A-Rod! You're a klassy guy!

15 I think A-Rod found yet another way to be the center of attention.

11 yeah - it looked like cleveland was going to take advantage of their weaknesses, but they fought through that - and destroyed the angels and the rockies

Blalock: next year. And he has an option.

13 The Red Sox beat the 2nd best team in baseball in the ALCS

16 Those games may have been close in actual score, but they were totally outclassed in them. No matter what the score was, the Red Sox, IMO, were never actually close to losing either game.

19 So maybe he can be gotten on the cheap??

14 peter abraham mentioned shifting cano to 3rd... i'd consider that, if robbi would be willing to do so.

then we get a killer 2B. and santana. and dimaggio (either dimaggio).

then? we're set.

20 And humiliated them in game seven.

What is 134ed?

20 they beat themselves?

"We really wanted him back, but obviously he didn't want to be a Yankee,"

Nice response. Two can play at this game.

Congrats to the Red Sox. I'm happy to see that for once, the best regular season team won. As much as I hate Beckett, man, what a performance this postseason. He was the difference maker.

25 You need to go a few threads back. Comment 134 magically disappeared and nobody knows why, not even Ken.

23 Either? What about Vince?

19 Please see 14 . That's seriously terrible.

28 30 IP, 19 H 2 BB 4 ER

26 HA!

27 Yeah. Look I'd have more respect for A-Rod if he sat down with the team and ownership, discussed a deal and decided he didn't like it.

Announcing during the world series (on a night that should be purely for those two teams) that you won't even return the Steinbrenner's phone calls. Well, as much as I hate to quote that fat turd, "Bush League."

Poor Bobby Abreu, A-Rod only cared if "his closer, his catcher, and his tenured starting pitcher" came back. What about HIS right-fielder?!?!? What about HIS defensive replacement first-baseman workout buddy?!?!

If Boston starts bidding for A-Rod, and the Yankees stick to their guns, they are idiots. They should swallow their pride, and negotiate with him. Losing A-Rod is a disaster for this team.

On the other hand, it's going to be interesting to see what he gets and from whom.

33 I say we abandon that call.

28 ditto. i hate that kid, but jeepers can he throw a baseball.

we should have a 134 post on the side for those who missed it.
basically on friday there was some back and forth between two posters (we think in a joking manner)
anyway post 134 mysteriously disappeared and it heightened the mystery.
so when people say it was 134ed it means something disappeared

28 I hate Papelbon as well, but he was channeling Mariano out there. I've been waiting for the rug to be pulled out on him, but he looks like the real deal.

36 Only to drive the price up for Boston, not with the intent of bringing him back, I say.

36 You're right . . .

I can just envision all of the GMs in baseball with a spare 3B calling Cashman up as we speak: "Hey Brian, so how attached are you to "the big 3?"

35 I said it on the last thread, that's BS. A-Rod could have waited 10 more days to meet with ownership and Cash, find out what direction they wanted to take the team and see how offers to MoPoAb shook out. I'd have more respect for him if he just said, "You know what, you guys booed me so screw you, I'll go hit my HRs somewhere else."

36 Define disaster . . .

it just occurred to me that the net logical step in the A-Rod story is him signing with Boston.

44 Right - how do you take this as anything other than a big F you?

The Red Sox were clearly the better team...in fact, 4 or 5 teams in the AL were clearly better than everyone in the NL. I thought the Yankees could have handled Boston head-to-head, but they didn't get the chance. Regardless, I think Boston deserved to win the World Series. Unlike 2004, I have to admit I didn't really care too much whether they won or not. One reason was because it didn't come as a result of a historic ALCS over the Yankees. Secondly, I didn't dislike as many players on this team as the 2004 edition. And, finally, before 2004, it almost felt as if one of the Yankees main missions was to keep the curse of the Bambino alive. With that silliness dispensed with, I've kind of lost interest in what the Red Sox do when they are not playing the Yankees.

More background on 134 not related to Banter (or is it?)
Article 134 of the American UCMJ is the catch-all article, for offences "not specifically mentioned in this chapter." Article 134 has been used to prosecute a wide variety of offences, from cohabitation by personnel not married to each other to statements critical of the U.S. President. Some prisoners at Abu Ghraib were tagged with this number.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/134_(number)

So if ARod has be 134ed, then we can now ascribe to him all the failings of the Yankees for the past few years.

Whatever back page writer came up with "Mr. Optober" is genius.

44

Ditto!

Now .... A-Rod could have said ... "I want Mo, Po and Pet back next year, and I'm willing to defer X million of my salary to help with the luxury tax if you can sign them all and give me an extension".

But we all know the odds of that happening.

p.s. I still wouldn't mind Beltre at 3rd, even at his inflated salary and .270ish BA. His defense is outstanding .... he's still young, and he keeps his nose clean (I think).

It's only going to get sadder when Mattingly decides he would like to leave the team because of the Girardi hire. I think Girardi will be a fine manager, but I'm afraid Donnie will give the Yogi treatment as well and I would hate to see that.

It sucks that A-Rod is leaving, but if this is the way he chooses to leave then so be it. He will go down as baseball's greatest nomad. Hank had a pretty good line in the Times: "Does he want to go into the Hall of Fame as a Yankee, or a Toledo Mud Hen?"

48 i agree with everything you said. but i DO hate papelbon and his disgusting celebrations.

36 Presumably, the Yankees were going to make their best offer in the pre-opt out period. Unless the market for Arod sours and they can still get him at that price, I hope they do not over bid for him. Getting into a bidding war with Boston would be the worst thing that could happen. Not only would they be tied into a long-term deal that will become an albatross in 3-4 seasons, but the added pressure on Arod would make a future meltdown a distinct possibility.

Arod was great...I loved him. But if he wants to move, the Yankees can too.

46 He'll certainly be able to chase the hits and homerun records there.
http://tinyurl.com/2eot2

I hadn't looked in awhile - I thought Philly would have been higher

40 Papelbon strikes me as the next Gagne. His dominance is real, but I am not sure his shoulder will allow him longevity.

39 Post 134's agent faxed me that 134 was exercising it's option. It had concerns about the uncertain status of Emma Spann and Wil Weiss for 2008 so it decided to bolt Banter.

36 No way. Let him walk.

The fans and the team may have been in a bit of denial for 4 years about what kind of disruption this guy causes wherever he goes, but last night he showed his true colors.

8th inning of the clinching game of the World Series, indeed.

Buh-bye, greedy attention whore. Nice knowin' ya.

Let's use this money to shore up the bullpen now, please. Work your magic, Cash.

57 At least it bothered to fax you. Could've just sent a text.

52 That's been my concern all along. I would hate to see Mattingly feel betrayed. I have no objectivity when it comes to Donnie...he is the one person I still connect with on an emotional level.

Let's use this money to shore up the bullpen now, please

The Dodgers will give you Scott Proctor for Wilson Betemit. Straight up.

55 Oh I hope he goes to Philly. My gf lives there, I can come down and boo him on a weekly basis.

Next time A-Rod steps up to the plate in the Bronx, he'll be greeted by Joba's chin music.

57 D'oh! One 'n' in Span.

52 Mattingly strikes me as too classy to let being passed over phase him that much, although I don't expect him back as a coach. As long as the Yankees were fair to him and explained there reasons well, I don't see him holding a grudge. What was done to Yogi was certainly unfair and he had every right to be upset.

53 Papelbon and Youkilis are the only players I dislike (I even don't hate Schilling)...in 2004, there was Millar, Damon (whom I now really like), Pedro, Lowe, Arroyo, Nixon...

I can't wait for the '08 All-Star game boo-fest. Ahh, just like old times.

Wonder how the A-Rod apologists apologize for this big "F.U. and your measly $27M a year".

51 Beltre at 2 years/$24mn wouldn't be awful because he is great on defense and competent as a hitter. He would probably wind up being a rich man's Scott Brosius.

54 Personally, I can't see Boston making a move for him. Maybe the FO wants to, just to stick it to the Yanks, but I think the players & the fans would revolt.

Varitek, Schilling, Pedroia - you think any of these guys could co-exist with A-Rod?

I say Cubbies. Piniella's probably working the phones as we speak.

67 I don't think there are any left.

Completely forgot about the AS Game. Wow, it's going to be noisy.

58 Keep in mind...this was same Arod who sat in the stands behind home plate during game 5 of the 2000 World Series. No one should be surprised by the tactic Arod used this time around. Boras is very cunning in how he orchestrates things, so this was right in line.

Never mind A-rod, god's team got clobbered ! BWAHHAAHAAAHAAA!!

21 Fair enough. Just trying to stay positive. Red-Rod Sunday has been tough on me.

66 Don't forget Varitek.

I don't even know what to say, other than

sunovabeetch.

65 Yeah - he obvoiously wouldn't be happy, but I don't think he would be so bitter either. At least I really hope not.

I think besides the money (which is on a level by itself) he wants to be "the man" and be in a park that will help his records chase

66 74 I'd throw Beckett in the mix as well.

69 until the sale of the cubs is finalized, i would imagine that a commitment of more than $30M/year over a decade might be a stretch.

i could be wrong.

66 77 I don't know...I don't really hate Varitek and Beckett. Both guys seem to really respect the game and compete fiercely. Even better, they don't often have much to say off the field. Other than as competitors, they don't make my dislike list.

77 And Pedroia - that little twirp annoys me

If Boston picks up A-Rod, should the Yanks go for Lowell? I don't think so. His resurgence has mostly been due to the Green Monster.

HOME: .323/.418/.575
ROAD: .276/.339/.428

77 pedroia is alright. he plays hard. i don't mind him. i personally think that this champion sox team is far less annoying than its predecessor.

81 No!! Replace the bat, yes...but not necessarily at 3B.

Here's one thought...why not sign Barry Bonds? He would easily replace Arod's lost offense when healthy. I know he isn't a popular figure, but I'd sure love to see him hitting with the game on the line.

83 tell me that you are kidding.

tell me now, or you take that back.

83 Another DH? So we have a Giambi/Bonds/Duncan/Matsui/Damon platoon at DH?! Um, no. Sign a decent 3B and a good 1B and we'll be ok. What we lose on offense we'll hopefully pick up on pitching with the young kids.

if girardi is named skipper, and if torre is dodger-bound, would donnie follow mr. t.?

isn't donnie's son in the dodger system?

my heart sank as i pieced this hypothetical together.

80 Really? I have to admit I don't mind the kid. He just goes and plays, I haven't seen any idiotic quotes from him (like Youkliss) and he's damn good. I'm sure that's how Boston felt about Jeter in '96.

Why wouldn't the Yankees be interested in Bonds...?

83 Bonds would get to hit with the game on the line only if 1st base is occupied. Besides, if ya think A-rod is a douchebag...

83 um - we still wouldn't have a 3B and would have one more dh (who i agree is better than any of the other ones - but still)

A-Rod has been 134'rd. Or maybe he 134'rd the Yankees. In any event, I am 134-ing all ESPN for the next few weeks.

49 Nice link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/134_(number)

Forget last night and the Sox - good for them, they're not nearly as annoying as the 2004 team.
Start looking ahead to 2008 in the Bronx.

84 I am not...I don't care if Bonds is the biggest jerk in the world. If someone is going to get his league best production at a discount rate, why not the Yankees? I wouldn't make it my plan A, but I wouldn't discount it either. I'd rather hold my nose and swallow Bonds for one season, then get tied into another long-term deal for second rate talent like Hunter, Jones, Rowand, Lowell, etc.

85 If they sign Bonds, I think you'd then look to unload Giambi (maybe send him back to Oakland by eating half his deal). Having both would probably be impossible.

87 Yeah - maybe it is just me. I admit he plays hard - and I actually felt sorry for him at the beginning of the year when he sucked big time and everyone wanted to replace him - but there's something about him that annoys me.

I will have to say that I am quite impressed with Ellsbury's talent. I'd like to see Melky approach his ABs more like him - and I think Melky can get more doubles - steal more bases and so on

83 84 85 I suggested Bonds at DH in the last thread but really it only makes sense if they can deal Giambi and convert either Damon or Matsui to 1st base. But the team already has real issues about being too LH at the plate w/o Barry. Bonds makes sense in that he replaces 2/3 of Arod's ABs with similar production (170 OPS+ in 472 PA) but it's obviously not that simple.

Off topic (sort of), and not to dwell on the Sox, but this was humorous (from Fox Sports):

Colorado owner Charlie Monfort insisted after Game 4 of the World Series that the Rockies are a better team than the Boston Red Sox, a team that outscored them 29-10 in a four-game Series sweep. "These guys did amazing things," Monfort said. "I think this team is a better team than Boston. It would have been nice to have another two, three, four days. We'll wake up tomorrow and go, 'There's no baseball game to go to,' but what a deal they did. It's an amazing thing they accomplished just to get here." They were amazing, all right. But better than the Red Sox? "I think so," said Monfort. "How did we win 21 out of 22? We got the breaks. And I think they got the breaks. Are they a better team? I don't think so. You give us 10 games against them, we'll beat them six." --

89 I don't think Arod is a douchebag. I wish he would have valued the potential role he could have played in Yankee history, but I don't blame him for excercising his contractual right. As for Bonds, I don't care if he is a douchebag. I am simply looking at filling a lineup hole in a relatively weak market. I'd rather one year of Bonds than several years of nice guy/bad player.

86 I thought about that Dodger connection with Mattingly and his son also.

Personally, Bonds is where I draw my line between wanting to win and wanting to root for ballplayers. I'm sure he could help offensively, but it would tear me up seeing him play for the Yanks. With Bonds objectivity is out the window for me. I want no part of that.

I still wonder if this isn't a bargaining ploy, albeit a really stupid one. Boras notified the Yankees - but has he sent the paperwork off to the commissioner's office? Until he does, it doesn't count.

98 Maybe, but could he return to the Yankees after THIS?

Phase 1: Move Robbie to 3B

Phase 2: ??????????

Phase 3: Profit

90 One advantage to signing Bonds is it would let you settle on a lesser option at 3B. The Yankees didn't get much out of DH last season, so by adding Bonds, they'd give themselves more margin for error at third. If living with one season of Bonds/Betemit, for examples, allows them to really reload in 2009 when the FA pool will be much stronger (Santana, Texeira, Cabrera, etc.), then I could live with it.

97 indeed. when bonds buttons up his pinstripes, i become a pirates fan.

(or some other team... i'll decide if necessary.)

97 Ditto. If the Yanks were to sign Bonds, I'd have to ignore baseball until he left... and its my favorite sport.

100 very nice.

Yankee bigwigs should be inundating the press with "Good riddance" soundbites. ARod "wasn't Clutch" and "Was never a True Yankee" and "We're glad to see him go".

97 Why? Is it the steroid thing? If so, how do you reconcile rooting for Giambi?

101 there is no guarantee that santana will be available as a FA next offseason. he is on the market, so that the twins get a return, and any team trading what it would take to get him will want a chance to lock him into a deal before the trade goes through.

Has anyone thought about the tampering angle? By all accounts, the Yanks were going to offer A-Rod some ridiculous money to extend, but even if the Yanks had extended him for 4-5 years at $30M per, it would not have made the same splash as going out and getting 8yrs, $225M. I wonder if there's been any tampering and Boras already has a good idea of whose going to sign him at what price, a la JD Drew last year.

106 for me, it is the choking his mistress and threatening to murder her... but i can be a little touchy.

99 That's why I think it's a really stupid ploy, if it's a ploy. But then, I think walking away is really stupid, too.

101 I do see your logic.
Just not sure how it would all play out - and as joex3 said - the lineup is too lh (eben though Arod's splits were much better aganist RHP) - which is why a slimmed down Cabrera would be nice or even Beltre - but I am also against overpaying for either which would be hard for Cashman to pull off.

107 Sure, but the point is this free agent class is very weak and next season has the potential to be very strong. If I was Cashman, I'd either be looking for trades or stop gap moves, and would steer away from the likes of Lowell/Jones/Hunter/Rowand.

109 I wasn't aware of those specific allegations. Have they been substaniated? I guess my point is everyone villifies Bonds, but in reality, he isn't much worse than many others...something we are going to find out when the Mitchell report is released. I personally do not dislike Barry Bonds because he has never really been a phony when not trying to avoid federal indictment :). The fact that he doesn't treat the media well doesn't concern me much.

Short term this sucks (no real right handed power in the lineup) but long term this might work out well for the team.

If A-Rod takes the proposed five year extension, the Yanks probably end up having him play 3 years as a DH or 1st baseman. I imagine there are better ways to spend $30 mil a year.

If the Yanks spend the money that they were going to spend on him wisely, they end up with a much better and more balanced team then they have had in a while.

Hell, the Yanks won more playoffs and WS games with Brosius at 3rd than they ever did with A-Rod.

109 I wasn't either. Is that from her book?

108 The Drew Tampering was the biggest open secret in baseball last year. We don't have that this year, unless A-Rod becomes owner of the cubs.

106 It's the whole package. I don't like the man. Of course the steroids bother me and I am not much of a fan of Giambi for that same reason. What seperates the two is that Bonds possibly has the worst personality in sports. At least Giami owned up to his error and moved on. Again, I'm not saying Bonds couldn't help on the baseball field. What I'm saying is that I have personal dislike for him and that will not change.

IMHO, I think Bonds would be an upgrade at DH over Giambi.

112 I think the Mitchell report could vindicate Bonds somewhat.

112 here's all i could fine before heading out to lunch:

http://tinyurl.com/2kk8on

if you need more than a playboy interview to sway you, well... i can't help you. there is a reason why this publication has been around so long:

investigative journalism.

114 Game of Shadows has answering machine messages with him threatening to kill her.

http://www.tiny.cc/Kjrla:
___________________________
The Yankees officially offered their managerial job to Joe Girardi Monday morning and he is expected to accept it, a source has told 1050 ESPN New York's Andrew Marchand. Yankees general manager Brian Cashman told
Don Mattingly and Tony Pena that they will not be getting the job.

Girardi was in the Denver for the World Series. A source said he is expected to fly to New York for the announcement, which is likely to come Tuesday. Girardi's contract is expect to be in the three-year, $6 million range.

Mattingly will not accept a position on the Yankees coaching staff, Marchand and ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney are reporting.

118 119 Okay thanks - that is pretty damning (well maybe not playboy) and horrible

108 It's entirely possible there was tampering. Otherwise, why wouldn't Boras at least have sat down with the Yankees and listen to the offer.

So ESPN is reporting that the Yanks have officially offered the position to Girardi. Mattingly will not accept a coaching job. They expect his contract terms to be around 3 years $6 mil.

120 Damn, too slow

111 The lefty imbalance is a concern, but Bonds rakes against both sides, so in many ways, he'd be just like having a big RH bat,

123 Crap.

Girardi will be a fine manager but I was rooting for Mattingly - like I've done since I was a kid.

100

Kudos on the South Park reference ...

Personally, I'd move Jeter to a corner infield position before moving Cano to 3B.

94 Bonds at DH makes perfect sense if they can just stick Giambi at first, suffer through his defense, and play him until he breaks. Even as a DH Bonds will only play about 100-120 games. he could rotate into the OF on occasion (20 games?), allowing Giambi to DH 60 games, play 1B for 60-80 games, assuming he hits and doesn't doesn't get hurt.

Ideally, sign Bonds for one year, then shed both him and Giambi the following year.

126 I feel the same way. It would have been awesome if Mattingly managed them to a WS.

116 That's fair. I don't have a personal dislike for him, so I guess that's why I'd be more open to it. Of course, at what point does a personal dislike stop you from wanting to see your team improve. For example, several here have said they have a personal dislike for Beckett. Does that mean they wouldn't pursue him if he was a potential FA?

118 I don't want to check out that link at work, but if the allegation is based on accusation by someone selling a book, I would need a little more.

83 I'm very surprised to hear you say that. And with Giambi at DH, I'm not sure how it works. But Yankee Stadium Right field and Bonds bat? Wow.... could see a lot of fireworks.

Truth is, it's a great idea if you can get past Bond's smell (which I personally don't mind). He WANTS to play here. He could be had for until $10m. My guess is, as a DH, he would be healthy most of the year.

The guy posted a 1+ OPS this year, while still playing the OF, in a stadium with a very imposing RF. He could be AWESOME in Yankee stadium.

Good call William. I didn't have the balls to mention it myself.

119 That's another story, but again, I don't think that makes him much worse than many, mnay others who play professional sports (epecially when you can rattle off more than a few names who have gone beyond threats and actually killed people :).

128 The problem with that is the team needs DH ABs for players like thirtysomething players like Damon and Matsui when they get dinged up. The team already has 4 everyday OFs and zero regular corner INFs. Having 2 primary DHs doesn't make a lot of sense. Unless you can dump Giambi there is no way to go after Bonds.

126 Same here...just seeing #23 at the ballplark was a pleasure. I hate having to cut ties with Mattingly, even though I think Girardi probably was the better choice. I hope the Steinbrenners do everything in their power to make sure Mattingly remains a happy member of the Yankee family.

Call me crazy, but I am having the same thoughts as 98 . It sounds like gamesmanship cranked up to 11. Announcing it during the clinching game of the World Series? Not even calling back the owners who are personally reaching out A-Rod to come back? Passing it off as if it was the Yankees fault for not signing Mo, Po, and Pettite yet?

I somehow feel A-Rod is being hypnotized by Boras ("You don't need to see that contract offer. These aren't the terms you're looking for."), because I don't want to believe a person can be such a bald-faced liar ("I don't see myself playing anywhere else").

130 As I stated earlier Bonds is where I draw the line for a player interfering with wanting my team to improve. For instance I hate Pedro and didn't want him on the Yanks. Had he came I would have rooted for him to help the team. Same with Beckett. Bonds is probably the only player I feel that way towards.

129 Although, if the Yankees now win the WS in 2008, does this cement the Mattingly jinx? That's enough to make me sick!

139 Yes, it would.

132 He also was quoted as saying it would be a dream to play for the Yankees. So...

136 I'll add that I also agree that if it is just an attempt to gain bargaining leverage, it is incredibly stupid. I believe the Yankees will not be in the hunt if he has indeed opted out.

134 If the Yankees eat $10-12mn, that turns Giambi into a Frank Thomas like contract. There has to be a team out there willing to take that on, right?

138 Oh - I caught myself thinking that when all the Girardi rumors came out - Poor Donnie - I hope he somehow gets a ring before it is all said and done.

136 One thing I'd hope we could all agree on here is that Boras is not the villain here. This isn't an instance of Boras coercing a 19 year old kid with delusions of grandure. Arod is a grown man and should be assigned all responsibility for his decisions.

A-Rod leaving pretty much seals the rumored deals on Mo and Jorge for about $13 million/year for 3 years, no?

I dunno. No A-Rod. $26 million for old Mo and old Posada three seasons from now.

Worried.

145 I wouldn't worry about the money in the Posada/Rivera deals. Even if you only get one more good season out of both, I think both have earned the extensions. Also, with the young talent base, Aarod's contract gone, Giambi and Abreu gone after 2008 and the new Stadium coming on line, I don't think money will be a concern in 2009-2010.

145 $26M for Mo and Po in 2010 will be A LOT better investment than Clemens in '07.

145 I definitely want Mo around for next season, but 3 seasons from now? Not so sure ...

144 I think you're right. This is A-Rod's decision. I just have trouble accepting that a person can say one thing so publicly and choose to do the exact opposite. It's hard to accept. I'm looking at this from a perspective of defending him for the past few years, and thinking accepting the contract extension could have reversed a little of the perception people have of A-Rod, but now it's become quite clear that people were right.

And with that, I just read from Heyman that Boras has sent in the paperwork and the Yankees should have received it this morning.

106 Not only that, the Mitchell report might names dozens of players, some of who might be Yankees... and we know there are still 100's un-named.

Is it OK to get a Juan Pierre type on steroids because he still sucks, while Giambi and Bonds prospered?

Does anyone thinks it a little unfair that Bonds, and maybe Raf and Jason, are the only guys getting 'hated' because of steroids.

And it seems to me that ARod got a LOT of love here this year, and the majority wanted him back. Now we're glad he's gone? Isn't this behavior little Redsoxish?

And the Fenway 'Park Factor' doesn't tell the story. Ala Mike Lowell, righties have a party there, while lefties have a huge RF to deal with. ARod might set the MLB record for doubles if he goes to the Sox, and he will still hit plenty of HRs. I know we are bitter about ARod, but please don't say you are OK if he signs with the Sox.

Next year, you really want to face a 3-4-5 of ARod, Papi and Manny?

With the Arod opt out, the Yankees now have $120mn committed in 2008, $60mn committed in 2009 and $30mn committed in 2010. With the farm system now an asset, Cashman has the chance to really solidify this organization for another 12 seasons. 2008 will be a key season, though. I really think prudence and creativity is the key...Cashman needs to look at 2008 as stop gap season, because if they don't make any awful decisions (trades or long-term deals), they could really be in a great position in 2009.

Gotta say that signing Bonds would be a move right out of the "George - late 70s" playbook. From a purely baseball perspective, the dude sure can hit still. Nice idea, william.

Does anyone know if Girardi had a good (or even decent) relationship with Miguel Cabrera? Might that be part of the thinking in play here?

Cabrera's eating and work habits worry me, but if those could be fixed . . . he turns 25 in April 2008. Having his prime late 20s/early 30s seasons might be more valuable than having A-Rod's mid-to-late 30s seasons.

138 Not to worry. It's hard to imagine the Yankees winning the WS next year.

139 Nice postmodern self-reference.

150 I don't think that it is unfair that the bigger stars get more of the blame. The better a player the more fans invest their time and emotions into them. There is a sense of betrayal when you come to realize those great moments may have been produced unfairly. I think thats why no one cares when Matt Lawton of Neifi Perez get busted. Also, the record chasing doesn't help either.

148 I'd sign him to a lifetime contract. Mo is one player who has my unending gratitude. The ease with which he closed out games (post season games especially) over the past 12 seasons has easily added 5+ years (in the form of a healthy heart) to the life of every Yankee fan.

On the positive side... I'm sure there will be no increase in tickets prices, right?

150 I don't think anyone is saying they are "glad" he's gone (I know I'm not). I am simply saying that his departure isn't the end of the world. Also, I am not going to blame the Yankees for Arod's decisions. Do I wish he decided to stay? Yes. Am I giving up my season plan and YES subscription? No.

151 Very good reason for optimism. Like you said its up to Cashman to be creative and patient in making this work.

If ARod goes to the Red Spox "to spite the Yankees", the Yankees should respond in kind by acquiring Nomar from the Dodgers.

That'd show'em.

152 Don't really know the nature of the relationship - but the speculation I read is Cabrera respected him; but there was also speculation that Girardi wanted to move him to 1B and that was part of the friction with the FO.

153 Is it really that hard to imagine? Man, I thought I was the pessimist (well, at least during game threads).

156 That last season at the old stadium? Guess again...regardless of price, I'm sure this entire season will come close to selling out.

127 So how about Jetes at 1B, Cano at 3B, Gonzales at short, Betemit at 2B?

162 The new old stadium that is.

160 Hmm. Well, the Yanks do need a 1B too. =)

159 Are you a Dodgers fan?

I think if the Yanks want to make a "spite" move, it'd be to sign Manny when he's a free agent after next year. (To a short-term deal, of course.) Of course, so many Sox fans don't appreciate Manny, so who knows how far the spite will go.

163 Now, that's not a plan! :)

While I agree that the silver lining here is freed up money, I would like to know what that money might be spent on, wisely or otherwise? Who's available this year or next year? We'd all love it if Tabata or Jackson work out, or Miranda or Montero. But the fact is those guys are either young or questionable, or both. they might be good, or not. If not (or even if only some of them are not good), where are the Yanks going to go to fill out their roster? Where are they going to get new outfielders from? Melky is not the answer, especially when the rest of the outfield for 2009 is ?? and ???. that's not to mention 1B, where there don't appear o be any answers on the horizon. Or 3b/SS, where there don't appear to be any answers on the horizon (well, Furcal is a free agent after next year I think, yeesh). Of all of the Yankees position players, who can we expect to be as good or better for the next ~3 seasons? Besides Cano, anyone? MAYBE Melky, but I don't want to hold my breath and hope he turns into a productive middle of the order type. Posad might be nice, but he's not going to hit like this forever. Abreu is most likely gone after next season. Matsui is in decline it appears. Damon is in decline. 1B/DH is a hole of hope and frustration right now. Jeter won't last forever, and even if he is still good for a while there's not much beyond him. I'm not moaning, just wondering what people think are potential solutions beyond 2008 for most of the lineup.

166 The whole infield or just the keystone?? :)

165 Are you a Dodgers fan?

Was it that obvious...?

163 Jeter's bat >>>> AG's glove + AG's bat + net improvement of getting Jeter's glove off SS

Avg AL 1B >> Jeter's bat (not enough power, which only gets worse over time)

And who says Jeter can play 1B? He'd certainly be one of the rare righty-throwing 1Bs.

170 Who says he can play 3B? My thought is, his lack of range to the glove side would be a detriment there . . .

167 First off, I agree that the 2008 FA class isn't great. That's why I think the Yankees should be prudent this year, consider out of the box ideas like Bonds and then look toward 2009 for FA additions. The Yankees could conceivably add both Texeira (a more likely addition if Mattingly was the manager) and Cabrera (perhaps more likely with Girardi) in 2009, which would rebolster their aging offense. In 2008, I think you can count of Cano to improve, Jeter, Matsui and Abreu to maintain their level of production and Posada to decline, but still be productive. If Cashman can add one more short-term bat to that mix, I think the team will hit enough to win.

Also, one other note...when Arod walked away from the M's, they signed the likes of Ichiro and Brett Boone. On paper, that seemed like a bad trade off, but it turned into a 116 win season. Who knows, maybe the Yankees make a key trade, sign Fukodome, or something else. The point is, it's October 29, not March 29. The Arod loss stings, but there is plenty of time to reform the team.

168 The whole plan...Cano played great defense at 2B, so why move him to a position where is offense contribution is leff of an advantage. Jeter is a below average SS on defense, but his offense makes him an asset. At 1B, he is around league average for the position. Also, AG hasn't proven he is ready for a major league starting position and his bat looks like a zero. I think the Yankees need to do better than that alignment.

169 If I was a Dodgers fan, I'd spend my free time trying to figure out how to rid my team of Nomar too (and Pierre, obviously). So yes. =)

167 It is possible - not always easy - to draft guys who are ready right away, or darn quickly. For example, Matt LaPorta was drafted by the Brewers this year, and could be in the bigs next year. Ryan Braun was in the majors less than 2 years after he was drafted. Those are exceptions, obviously, but its still possible.

Well... we can't complain it's a slow news day, can we?

Actually, I do think 2008 is the hardest year, both because of transition (Torre, ARod, Donnie, ect) and because the farm is not quite ready to produce position players.

And I agree with you William that this is a challenge for Cashman, and I do have faith in Cashman.

Right now, we have no real 1Bman. With Bonds, as Mats suggests, we could play Giambi at 1st until he hurts himself. While Bonds is an ugly choice, as pointed out, it's a 1 year gig, and his bat is as good as ARods, and probably better at Yankee Stadium.

Does everyone here think Mo and Po will resign (probably for 3 years each)?

173 Of course, Jeter's offense would be league average at just about any other position. Cano should stay at 2B, but he needs a better SS with him.

This is supposed to be a rebuilding year anyway, right? Did Hal (or was it Hank) say that the new mgr. can't be expected to win a WS this year???

It would be great if they could front-load the Mo/Po contracts and avoid committing to a third year, e.g. $15M/year for two years with $15M vesting (according to games played) option or $4M buyout for 2010.

Pete Abe says Girardi has been offered the job; announcement expected tomorrow.

Life goes on - but I hope like heck Mattingly isn't offended by all of this. Let's hope someone told him, as Alex has said so often - you don't want to be the guy who follows Joe Torre. You want to be the guy after the guy who follows Joe Torre.

I still say we go after Howie Clark for 3B.

It really is a transition year. And it was Hank 177 - Hal is not allowed to talk :)

179 here's another girardi story:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7388184

I'm not sure why freeing up the money is a big deal, or any deal at all. They're freeing up a bunch of money over the next two years anyway, and will have a lot of young, cheap players.

More important, what difference does the money make? It would only make a difference if the $30M prevented them from making some other significant move. But the Yankees have only done that once, and I think they learned from that one.

179 It seems to me there are two paths MAttingluy can take, assuming he wants to manage AND will not stay on as bench coach. 1] He tries to get a job elsewhere--maybe as Torre's benchcoach wherever, or as a manager. 2] He somehow takes a MiL managing job, ideally with the Yankees.

Either plan would leave MAttingly in the wings to replace Girardi, when the inevitable occurs. Moreover, it means that two former heirs apparent (Donnie and Willie) would be floating around the league, increasing the chances that one of them ends up with the club at some point.

183 And, freeing up money for the sake of freeing it up is stupid when you're the Yankees. It's only good if you can spend it somewhere, and there's nowhere to spend it this offseason.

183 Right. The question is what they do with the money. This allows them to overpay for Mo and Jorge; they will almost certainly pick up Abreu's option. Then, it's probably a big push for one or two FAs. They may bite the bullet and trade some young talent for Santana and offer him a stupid crazy extension. I also wouldn't be surprised at a one or two year contract for Bonds, which may result in them essentially buying out Giambi.

One final (?) A-Rod thought. Despite the public bluster, the Yankees may still be in the bidding for his services. There is no reason they should not offer him the same deal they would have, minus the Texas subsidy. What does that come to, 7 years at around 25 million/year? If another team tops that, more power to them. But very few would be able to match the offer, and at least the Yankees would drive the bidding up.

OK, I think I would sent Phil, Tabata, and a minor league pitcher below Kennedy on the chart for Cabrera. Yikes, that is a lot to give up, and it still probably wouldn't be enough.

186 But they could have done those things anyway. They were going to overpay for Rivera and Posada no matter what. With Santana, the problem isn't the money but how much talent they'd have to give up (Hughes or Joba, and that's just a starting point). There are no free agents worth throwing a lot of money at, and in any case the Yankees would sign them if they wanted them.

I see it the other way. Losing Rodriguez, along with a weak FA class, makes it much more likely that they'll throw too much money at the wrong guy. I'd much rather overpay for Rodriguez than for Lowell.

185 well, they'll have an extra $21M+ for the next 8 years*... there just might be someone worth investing in over that span.

(* = if they don't panic and spend for the sake of spending in the interim.)

Multiple Published Reports say Girardi had been offered the managerial spot. Smart Move for Cashman. Now if only the Steinbrenners can keep their noses out of everything else.............

188 Ouch.
Maybe that's why Hank said some of what he has said.
I don't want to panic for 2008 and do something like this.
We can follow a plan similar to the way the Red Sox did from 2004 to now - only with more money and margin for error

190 True, hopefully.

I'm waiting for Hank to drop a "Maybe we'll win in the playoffs now."

192 Cabrera would help for the next decade. It's not like throwing 50 million at Lowell. If he continues the way he has, he's a first ballot HOF. And he's done it all in a pitchers' park.

Phil might end up being great. So may Tabata. Cabrera is great. That's why that won't be close to enough.

189 You're right, the REAL danger now is panic spending. I meant they can over-overspend on those two.

I can't believe Yankees fans are mad that A-Rod and Boras timed the announcement to steal the thunder from the Red Sox. I loved the timing of it.

196 I also love the outrage of the press - how dare he upstage the World Series! Uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but he was only able to upstage the WS because of their coverage of him.

194 I get what you are saying - but -
You're not worried about his weight?
And why not wait 1 more year and try to get him as a FA (unless the concern is the Marlins will trade him to someone this year?)

I have two ideas about Boras' announcement

#1 (Wishful Thinking) Despite the public announcement, maybe ARod hasn't signed the papers yet to withdraw from the contract. Maybe Boras is just putting extra pressure on the Yanks.

#2 (Deep Pessimism) ARod believes, based on the treatment of Torre, that with nobody in charge, the Yanks are going to be mismanaged, thus an unpleasant place to work. He doesn't want to stay, even if he has to earn less somewhere else. If this theory is true, Posada and Mo may feel the same way. Furthermore, if the Yanks are indeed mis-managed, that portends nothing good.

199 I could see ARod thinking #2, and I also believe it would be a mis-perception on his/Boras' part, at least for now.

187 I wouldn't mind seeing them do that as long as they don't budge.

194 I agree with 198 . As long as he doesn't get traded he will be available in a year. I would rather not give up a lot for one extra year of Cabrera. Tabata is probably the best I would want to give up.

I would assume that the Yankees would lock up Cabrera as soon as they got him.

194 Well the teams having a fire sale don't really have much to say about what their player is worth. They want something more than the draft choices. That's where the floor to negotiating a trade is.

I'm not so sure Cash has invested so much in the farm system just to dump guys the first time a pretty new girl shows up at the ball, so to speak.

Pitching and defense wins championships.

You know, is it really that much of a mystery any more why Jeter doesn't like the guy?

203 This isn't some pretty girl. This would be asking Jessica Alba to prom and her saying yes.

195 I have the Igawa panic signing fresh in my mind. I hope they do too.

205 did jessica alba get really fat last winter?

Not sure if anybody's brought this us up, in fact, I'm not sure if any of you are aware of this...

it's sort of a super sensitive topic, but, um, here goes...

what do you suppose Suzyn Waldman is going to do with the "A-ROD #13 YANKEE 4-EVAH!" tattoo on the small of her back?

Please don't ask how I know about this. I just do, OK?

i don't know if anyone posted this already, but Petey is posting that he has confirm with contacts inside the organization that it will be Joe Girardi ... announcement likely tomorrow

203 The Marlins will have plenty to say about Cabrera's worth, because there will be no shortage of bidders.

And it's nice to say that "pitching and defense win championships," but it's only partly true. Seems to me that if the Rockies had hit a little better, the Series would be at 2-2 right now.

207 Yeah, and she still managed a 150 OPS+ and hit 8 more home runs than the year before. Beautiful and talented!

Until Cabrera actually shows signs of slowing down because of the weight issue, I'm going to assume they're exaggerated.

also from petey:

"Spoke to some people who were in Denver for Game 4 last night. The Red Sox fans at Coors Field gathered behind the dugout to celebrate the victory and at one point started chanting, Don't Sign A-Rod!"

call it a gut feeling, but i don't think the sox are going to be a player for A-rod, if they can wrap up Lowell at a decent cost and length of contract ... my early bet is the Dodgers

as a side note ... anyone else note that in the top of the 8th, up 4-1, red sox fans at coors started a "yankees suck" chant that could be heard on the fox telecast???

stay classy, red sox fans, stay classy ...

208 That is f'ing hilarious.

"Shaun P "Of course, so many Sox fans don't appreciate Manny,"

Is that sarcasm? Boston fans love manny. He's forgiven things in boston that he'd never get away with elsewhere. Perhaps you were thinking of a different manny?

As to the question of what to do with the freed-up money:
1) get out from under the luxury tax in '08 and '09
2) LOWER ticket prices (yeah right)

214 Manny Corpas, duh.

210 There's our hope. The Marlins ask so much for Cabrera that no one is willing to make the move.

Meanwhile, the Marlins move Willis for peanuts, which is really all he's worth right now, which "frees up" enough money to easily pay Miggy whatever he wins in arbitration this year. Cabrera becomes a free agent and the Yanks pounce.

This fits Florida's MO, because it lets them still campaign for a new publicly funded stadium for another year - and then complain how they could have kept Cabrera if only they had gotten their publicly funded stadium.

214 I'm not saying all Sox fans don't appreciate Manny; many do. But there are plenty of Sox fans who don't too, and to deny that is just ignorance. Or do you not remember the reaction in the winter of '03-'04 when Manny was put on waivers, and so many Sox fans wanted him gone to free up his salary for other purposes?

215 Even though we all think of the Yanks' resources as limitless, of course its not true. I think they are going to make sure they avoid the luxury tax for many years to come. Great point, Diana.

0 Yeah, Alex couldn't wait to book. He is out of here so fast. He made sure to give the Yankee fans and NY media to knocked him around the busy on the way out by upstaging the World Series. They don't have Alex to knock around no more. Good for him, not so good for the Yankees. Hank sounds as petulant as his father. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

I always thought that Alex would opt out, especially when he put on the "I don't care any more" face. But then he played the "I loved NY" card so I thought that I might have been wrong. Ha. Oh well, he is a great player and I loved watching him at his best even though he could be annoying with his psychodramas.

RIYank, to continue our conversation from the thread below. Wait and see. No way Boras enthusiastically supports Alex opting out if he wasn't sure that there is an owner willing to pay him the $30 million/8 years. Alex is getting his money.

204
Mystery. Some people are sincere, and generous and people center, while others are pretentious and self centered. Jeter sees a character defect in Alex: He just has class enough not to articulate it. Do you think Pavano will be back next year? LOL

http://www.nysun.com/article/65401

Tim Marchman's interesting take on Alex ...

The Red Sox won the World Series and ESPN is doing a Yankee special. Like Red Sox fans, ESPN is obsessed with the Yankees.

I'm not thrilled with Girardi as manager, but he may not last long anyway, especially if he decides to blow out one of the Yankees' young pitchers' arms with high pitch counts a la the Marlins.

220

Pavano coming back next year? (shudder)

I mean, how am I gonna top my fantasy team name from this season, "Pavanomas no mas" ???

(thinking about all the mean A-Rod team name possibilities)

A few thoughts:

1. Thanks for all the gracious comments. I know that watching the Sox' domination over the last week and a half wasn't easy.

2. Until the NL adopts the DH, it will always be a weak sister. The Rockies wouldn't be one of the best 4-5 teams in the AL.

3. The best thing to come out of the Serious, from the perspective of a Sox fan, is that it will now be impossible for Theo to let Lowell walk and to sign A-Fraud. Should that occur, I transfer my allegiance henceforth to the Tribe. The difference between Lowell and A-Rod in terms of numbers is more than compensated for by what Lowell brings to the clubhouse.

4. There is nothing Hanley Ramirez can possibly do over the course of his career to negate the success of the deal for the Sox. This one pans out for both sides.

222 Reading the comments in this blog over the last week would suggest that the reverse is true as well.

As for me, I hated the Yankees long before I was a Sox fan. (see: Newcombe, Don)

224 From our side, the best thing to come of the Series is that nobody can get on the Yankees for "buying" a World Series. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the way the Sox do business. It's not all that different from the Yanks' model. But for some reason, the rest of the country does.

225 Hoping your rivals lose to a likable Colorado team is nowhere near the equivalent of chanting "Yankees suck" during a Sox/Rockies game.

224 Be very careful, debris. Theo and Co thought highly enough of A-Rod once upon a time to ditch Manny to get him. They also didn't let the clubhouse virtues of Bill Mueller and Johnny Damon persuade them into re-signing those guys.

Its entirely possible they decide to let Lowell walk - and sign A-Rod, not to replace him, but to play SS.

If you were ever anything BUT a Sox fan, then my measure of respect for you (meager though it already was), just dropped even more.

anyone else think Hank might be worse then his dad?..

1. He doesn't even like baseball

2. Why is he making decisions?

3. He actually has a bigger mouth

as a yankee fan, i'm terrified right now

Random thoughts: If Donnie really wants to manage the Yanks, wouldn't staying aboard be smart? Why bolt now?

I thought Miggy, maybe aside from Ryan Howard, was the best, youngest talent for the buck. But if it this phase in his career, and playing for the Marlins no less, he has already trashed his body, and I hear his defense sucks, how does that portate(?) to playing under the lights in NY? The guy is hugely talented, but I don't think he will shine here.

If the Sox don't sigh ARod, why would they let Lowell go? He is literally a perfect fit in Boston.

While I'm not happy about ARod leaving, the circumstances are not an issue. If he's going to go, you know Boras is going to make sure it's a show. Its back to business. And I can't help but remember the way the media and the fans treated ARod before this year. He had to literally put up one of the best years in the last 50 to get some love. Honestly, while I think it was a bad more for his legacy, I can't blame the guy for leaving. Too many stories about blonds and not enough about the best player in the game being the first one to start work and the last one to leave. Imagine if Cabreara had the same work ethic as ARod.

We still have 4 OFers and Giambi. Will we make a move on one of them?

224 debris is right on counts 3 & 4 methinks. I will disagree that the NL needs to DH to compete. It was the dominant league for a while even with the DH, as I recall. And when the Yankees were winning it wasn't because of their superior DHs for the most part. In any case, congrats to debris and all Red Sox fans. The Sox were the best team in baseball and there' no denying that (unless you're the Rockies I guess, who look pretty classless. Not to mention wrong.)

That being said, does anyone else feel like the media narrative is "Those plucky Red Sox overcame the curse AGAIN!!11!!1! Can you believe it? this team has grit and moxcoity and gutacularity by the Erstad!" Honestly, the ESPN headline was about the curse of Mientkiewicz and how it only lasted three years!

229 It's pretty clear. He was a Yankee hater who de facto became a Boston fan. Sounds like millions across the country.

224 #3. For both Sox fans' and Yankees fans' sake I hope that is true. For Sox fans, because you'll have to start cheering for A-Rod when he's hitting behind Manny and Oritz. For Yankees fans, because that offense will be the scariest thing I've ever seen.

On paper, I don't see how Sox fans could not salivate at the chance of replacing Julio Lugo with A-Rod.

231 Howard is not that young. In fact, he's older than Phat Albert.

226 no they don't ... john henry is in denial

I like the Bonds suggestion, unpalatable as he is. Of course, we've discussed trading for Johan, and it would probably be too much (the Melky & Wang & IPK scenario), but dig this, what would it cost to get Pujols. We still need a righty first baseman... And with LaRusa returning to STL... Betemit at third & Pujols at first would make the offense BETTER next year, likely!

Would it take more or less than, say, Melky & Wang & IPK?

237 Are you kidding me?

Bronson Sardinha has a little more upside then Betemit at 3B ... they should probably look outside the organization for somebody

231 one potential use of the "extra" cash the yankees now have found themselves swimming in could be using it to pay portions of bloated contracts of guys like giambi or abreu (if they pick up the option), and send them off in exchange for younger guys.

i am clearly grasping at straws.

238 Well, Pujols is a better hitter than A-Rod and I'm a better hitter than Stinky, so I could see it being a better offense.

We'd never get him, of course.

do you even know what Abreu did in the 2nd half? .... please don't group him together with Giambi.. thats a big difference between performance, and waste of $$$

241 I meant the proposal. I'd love Pujols, what idiot wouldn't?

If Cashman could get Pujols without giving up Phil OR Joba, I would start a religion devoted to him.

Top 10 Reasons for the Yankees to Sign Bonds:
10) We still might see #800
9) We had the best 'clean' player, so why not give this a try.
8) Giambi won't look so bloated in comparison.
7) If some other Yankee names show up on the Mitchell list, no one will really care.
6) Some people actually miss Gary Sheffield
5) We won't have to worry, his head is too big to fit on most billboards in Times Square
4) Just imagine what Red Sox fans will say. This in itself is reason enough.
3) He does not want to sleep over at Jeter's house
2) If he gets hit in the nuts with a shorthop, he probably won't get hurt.
1) He may be a cheater and the most reviled man in baseball, but he is still an incredible talent, and when he comes to the plate, there are fewer more electrified moments in baseball. For one year, it would be fun.

There is no way St. Louis trades Pujols. I don't think there is any package that could make that happen. It would take at least Joba or Phil plus two or three others. and I'm sure that even that doesn't get it done. He's signed through 2010 with an option for 2011 with an average salary of <$16 million per. he may be a better hitter than Arod by the time all is said and done (albeit at a less important position). Regardless, he's a bargain in the current market, a perennial MVP candidate, and the cornerstone for a franchise that doesn't have much else to count on in the near future. Not happening.

i wouldn't .. he could still wind up giving up Tabata, Austin Jackson, or Ian Kennedy .... the yankees could lose alot of the future this off-season.... Hughes and Joba are just the tip of the iceburg

1. Shaun P. is definitely right: a whole lot of RSN either wants Manny out or sits on the fence, ready to jump ship in August or September when he takes a little break, doesn't run out a long fly, or the like.

2. The Red Sox were pretty awesome in October this year, and it's hard to deny that in the end they were the best team in baseball. I didn't say that about the Cardinals last year, that's for sure.

3. My impression is that quite a lot of baseball America now despises the Red Sox at least as much as they despise the Yankees. I haven't done a poll or anything, just my impression (check out other Toaster blogs, for instance).

4. Using some of the freed up money to dump an over-paid Yankee or two on some other team in exchange for a younger, more promising player, that strikes me as an excellent idea. But it all depends on the details...

244 Reading that, I felt like I was watching Letterman... ;)

242 if they could pull a sheffield, picking up the option to trade him away for young, potentially useful people, it might not be a waste.

i was throwing out a hypothetical.

at this point, all we know about the team as far as changes in personnel goes, is that rodriguez won't be around and that torre is gone.

i'm just taking a stab in the dark.

you guys are funny .. no team would even consider taking on the rest of Giambi's contract ... he's useless a hitter, 100% useless as a fielder, and just bad karma to have around .... the only way to rid of him, is to find another smelly dump of a contract player, completely unwanted by anyone ... basically, you trade a load of sh*t for a load of sh*t

209 The offer to Girardi seems to be official, and they're saying he'll accept. So that's that.

http://tinyurl.com/2qttvk

250 You aren't paying attention.
The idea is to swallow a bunch of the money, and then trade him.
The other stuff you've said, well, I won't bother.

244 LOL. Nice job.

For the record, I wouldn't mind taking a run at Bonds for one year if we could trade of Giambi or Matsui. Would the Twins take a look at Giambi as a DH (as part of a Santana deal) if we paid a huge chunk of his salary? Could we trade Matsui for Richie Sexson?

ok, well as long as they get him off the team, thats fine ... just dont expect anything remotely useful, even on a minor league level

244 Hell no to Barry Bonds. Yanks already have a gimpy DH. A-Rod out & Barry in just means trading a high maintenance drama queen who's really really good for an older higher maintenance drama-ier queen who can only hit.

Bring a kid in to play 3B.

245 Oops, I though his contract was up after next year, a la Johan, but now realize i got his contract mixed up with Texiera's.

255

Ty Wiggington?

Is he still considered "young"?
Could we extract him cheaply enough?

i'd rather give Bronson Sardinha a chance

250 Useless hitter? Are you serious? If he can stay healthy, admittedly a big if, he's still a formidable hitter. Picking up 2/3 or his contract should make him a real chip. Not going to net a blue chipper, but maybe a B+ type prospect & a bullpen arm.

257 Christ no.

253 Check out Sexons stats this year, we want no part of him

nah.. no B+ prospect is coming for Giambi .. we can pay the entire salary, it wont happen

258 What in has Sardinha ever done to ever warrant giving him a chance at the MLB level as more than a 5th OF/pinch runner? I'd rather just throw Bradly Suttle out there....

I'm going to miss Alex. Especially his glove.

I love his swing well enough and all, but I've always been more breathtaken by his glove.

Also, he's one hell of a baserunner.

Can't we find a .320, slick-fielding, 20-HR, fundamentally solid 3B to take his place?

Fare thee well, Alex. And thanks for all the fish!

257 I don't know. There's got to be some team that has a spare 3B whiling away his time in AAA.

is it too late to bring drew henson back?

(i kid.)

check out Sardinha's stats during his short call-up this year.. he wouldnt be such a bad option if you wan't to go cheap at 3B... if he can still play 3b (not sure about that one)

260

Well .... Ty certainly wouldn't be my first choice for 3B .... but as a 1 year stopgap ...

Too bad Morgan Ensberg forgot how to hit ...

wait a minute... i just realized that now i can start blaming a-rod for everything again.

at least i got -something- out of this.

266 Ah, good old Drew! What ever happened to him, anyway?

270 he forgot how to hit, too. he quit. the yanks let him out of his contract.

267 Emphasis on the "short" part of the 'call up' - say hello to small sample size error. Sardinha is not a prospect. Betemit, however, is a real option, right now, possibly in a platoon with Phillips. Shelly platoon in RF with Abreu, Matsui & Giambi share DH/1B, Damon in LF....

What do ya'll think it would take to get Dunn? (ignore logjam issues - just assume for a moment the extra payroll allows you to carry giambi as a bench player).

271 and for henson's hitting woes, i place the blame squarely upon the shoulders of alex emmanuel rodriguez.

268

Christ

No.

267 11 Plate Appearances?

255 Err... last year Bonds played in a park with a hugh RF with a high wall. Every game he played, he played in the OF, and still managed over 475 PAs. His OPS was 1.045.

As purely a DH in Yankee Stadium, I would anticpate more PAs, and as good if not better numbers. Hate they guy? Fine. You said 'He can only hit? What else would you like from a DH? Hell, he might be better then the gimpy, can 'only hit' DH they have over in Boston.

Actually yeah, how bad would Andy Phillips and Betemit platooning at 3rd base be?

277 Quite?

267 wait Sardinha hit .333 in 10 MLB at-bats, WOW, shit yes, he's a shoo-in, those 388 at-bats of .693 ops in AAA mean nothing, he's TOTALLY ready ...

277 considering that betemit probably requires a platoon and andy hits righties better than lefties, not very well constructed ...

Giambi and Abreu both have no-trade clauses. Chances are that they won't accept a trade without a payoff of some sort - most likely, an extension.

The Yankees would have to get the payroll under $155M next year to get out of the luxury tax. I don't see them getting close to that.

maybe texas would trade Hank Blalock ... Lowell's a free agent ... can Miguel Cabrera still play 3b?

244
9) how do you know arod is clean? is that a "fact"?
4) you think red sox fans would be upset that we signed bonds? they'd think it hilarious and idiotic. and they'd be right.

274

Look .... I'm trying to put possible stopgap 3B answers out there .... they ain't perfect .... that's why they are "stopgap".

The Yanks won championships with Charlie Hayes, Scott Brosius and an aging Wade Boggs at 3B. Isn't it within the realm of possibilty that, absent acquiring a Cabrera or Beltre, that a "stopgap" with credible defense and at least SOME offense potential (even low avg. and decent pop)

So, unless you have a much more logical suggestion .... tone down the dismissal of my thought .... ok?

264 "Can't we find a .320, slick-fielding, 20-HR, fundamentally solid 3B to take his place?"

I don't know, but a quick scan through the ML ranks suggest that such a creature may be relatively hard/costly to find. Really, what's available.

I think Cashman will have to stick Betemit at third and hope for the best, or he makes a play for someone like Tejada--short term contract only, and hope he moves over to third.

What is Troy Glaus' contract situation in Toronto?

284

Perhaps my "Christ No" isn't clear enough.

I can't stand Ty Cobbington. He thinks he's Ted Williams and plays...not like him.

280 I thought the Phillips's splits reeked of small sample size? If not, oopsy...

281 Giambi would no doubt waive the no trade if his option for '09 were picked up (no doubt the yanks would have to pick up 2/3 or so of the total contract).

281 Damn, that's right, Giambi does have a no-trade clause.

Next option?

284 OK, but they won those championships with sub-par 3B and top three hitters at C, SS, and CF. Replacing A-Rod with Charlie Hayes only works the same way of Melky suddenly become Bernie c. 1998 and 1B stops being a total sinkhole.

285 If we're going to take a shot at Tejada or Glaus, it makes more sense to just get Bonds and put anyone at third.

284 Don't take it personally, Mattpat's prickly.

288 et al. Yeah, unless the team picks up basically all of his salary for two years, forget trading Giambi. Best case scenario is that he hits a bit next year for the 120 games that he is not hurt. Worst case is that they dump him outright. In either case, that millstone is around the neck for another year before sweet freedom.

291 persnickety.

285 Glaus has one more year plus a player option for 2009. He also has a full no-trade clause.

Hmmm.
Look, obviously it is possible to win a WS without having the best player in baseball as your third baseman (since every WS winner since I've been alive has done that). Just as obviously, A-Rod contributes a fistful of wins to the team, and those are going to be hard to replace.

Here's an interesting question. Are we about to see a Change of Philosophy, according to which the Yankee FO will think harder about how to win in the post-season, and not worry quite as much about racking up as many expected wins in the regular season as possible?

290 I more or less agree, although Glaus had a pretty decent season at third last year. If they could get him for two or three years (age 31-33), that wouldn't be the worst thing.

c - posada (*)
1b - ?
2b - cano
ss - jeter
3b - ?
lf - damon
cf - melky
rf - abreu (*)
dh - matsui

bring back posada and abreu, and this can still be a very good offense ..

296 I mean if we're going to jump headfirst into the steroid pool, just get the best guy going.

294 Oh well. Living up in Canada as I am, there was a good bit of talk last year about blowing up the team. Unfortunately, Glaus was seen as one of the keepers.

Are we about to see a Change of Philosophy, according to which the Yankee FO will think harder about how to win in the post-season, and not worry quite as much about racking up as many expected wins in the regular season as possible?

Which begs the question: does winning "in the post-season" require something different than winning "in the regular season"? If so, what? Clutchness? Having Been There Before? Octoberness? Concetration?

OPS for 3B with at least 150 PA during 2007, with at least 2/3 of games played at 3B:

Cnt Player OPS PA Year Age
+----+-----------------+-----+---+----+---+
1 Alex Rodriguez 1.067 708 2007 31
2 Chipper Jones 1.029 600 2007 35
3 Ryan Braun 1.004 492 2007 23
4 Miguel Cabrera .966 680 2007 24
5 David Wright .962 711 2007 24
6 Aramis Ramirez .915 558 2007 29
7 Hank Blalock .901 232 2007 26
8 Mike Lowell .879 653 2007 33
9 Garrett Atkins .853 684 2007 27
10 Mark Reynolds .844 414 2007 23
11 Troy Glaus .839 456 2007 30
12 Chone Figgins .825 503 2007 29
13 Adrian Beltre .801 639 2007 28
14 Edwin Encarnacion .794 556 2007 24
15 Jack Hannahan .793 169 2007 27
16 Ryan Zimmerman .788 722 2007 22
17 Josh Fields .788 418 2007 24
18 Kevin Kouzmanoff .786 534 2007 25
19 Casey Blake .776 662 2007 33
20 Akinori Iwamura .770 559 2007 28
21 Melvin Mora .759 527 2007 35
22 Jose Bautista .753 614 2007 26
23 Eric Chavez .752 379 2007 29
24 Travis Metcalf .742 181 2007 24
25 Scott Rolen .729 441 2007 32
26 Alex Gordon .725 600 2007 23
27 Morgan Ensberg .724 324 2007 31
28 Pedro Feliz .708 590 2007 32
29 Brandon Inge .688 577 2007 30
30 Ramon Vazquez .673 345 2007 30
31 Abraham Nunez .600 287 2007 31
32 Joe Crede .575 178 2007 29
33 Nick Punto .562 536 2007 29

300 A pitching staff and a bullpen.

You can pound lousy teams into submission in the regular season. Its harder in the playoffs.

295 Figuring out how to win in the postseason doesn't matter much if you don't make it there.

284 Exactly. The point isn't whether a team can win with a so-so 3B; it's whether you can replace Alex Rodriguez with that so-so 3B and still win. Adding a 1B who'll hit 25 HR won't do it.

I wonder if they'll offer Joe II a one year deal at $1.2 w/ $100K bonuses for each playoff round he wins w/ a team option for 2009?

288 "Damn, that's right, Giambi does have a no-trade clause.

Next option?"

somebody shoots giambi.

300

The bp.com gang has basically proven that the short series of post-season baseball is a basic crapshoot, though they have pointed out that teams with great starters and solid defense tend to have the edge (all other things being equal).

300 Right. I'm inclined to think that there really isn't much difference. But I'm tempted by the idea that VG starting pitching 1-3 is significantly more important in the post-season. It seems plausible, but I tried finding some evidence, by looking at the last ten WS, and there was no significant trend.

I think we MUST sign Mo and Po, especially if we want Andy back. Without Andy, is our rotation as is good enough to make up for our loss (ARod) of offense? Aside from Santana, is there another impact SP to be had?

Maybe our issues are not position players. We could put Betemin at 3rd ala Brosius. If Andy comes back and we can get 1 good SP, we have a pretty dominating SP staff, don't we?

Even without ARod, we still have a well above offense, no? I think Melky, with his glove and especially his arm, have showed us that defense saves/wins games. Maybe continuing to chase big bats at the cost of defense is not the best idea?

Question: If Joba and Phil are what we expect, how does a staff of: Wang, Pettitte, Phil, Joba, Moose and IPK stack up to the rest of the AL? What other name could be in there to make that really juicey?

303 Of course. But, you could trade off some reliable regular season wins in exchange for a better shot of going deep when you do get there.

306 I think 'proven' is too strong. I know that's the received wisdom among geeks (and I use that term with great affection).

though they have pointed out that teams with great starters and solid defense tend to have the edge

Is the magnitude of this edge believed to be bigger in the post season than in the regular?

308 Impact starter:
Livan Hernandez? Is he worth paying? (He's a free agent.)

296 glaus allegedly ordered HGH. with the mitchell stuff getting ready to be flung at the proverbial fan, they might not be too eager to commit a bunch of cash to him.

...but given the alternatives, who knows?

Why are the comments making me dizzy today?

What about a guy like Chad Tracy for a one year deal or so? It looks like the Snakes have a player who makes him tradeable. I know he was plagued by injuries this last year, but he has All Star abilities when healthy.

313 it's a-rod's fault.

310 It is.

Here's a trend that looks real (as opposed to a small sample illusion). The teams that hit way above league average (like the NYY) seem to lose a huge amount of that advantage against strong starters. That is to say, it looks like a lot of the hitting advantage comes from 'fattening up on weak pitching'. A-Rod and Giambi do that really well. And then when they face top twenty pitchers, they're much more like ordinary MLB hitters -- the difference doesn't completely disappear but it shrinks like crazy.

287 two thirds? Somebody gets a .900 OPS DH for $7m? Sounds like a pretty good deal to me. For all his issues, I think we underestimate Giambi's worth in the AL. Do you think other GMs feel Giambi is 'useless'?

311 At this point, he looks no better than a league-average innings eater. A useful fourth starter.

315 Who?

Livan is a lot younger than I thought he was.

Not that I want him.

317 he has value to other teams. that is why trading him for young talent could work.

Uh, so, to summarize the point of 316 , a line-up loaded with big bats is expected to rack up regular season wins, but largely because they'll beat the daylights out of the Royals, the number 4 and 5 starters, and so on. In the post-season, they'll lose that edge and the teams that got there with great pitching will do better.
This is all just marginal probabilities and expectations, need I add, not a sure thing.

319 you are my hero right now.

317 Exactly, people are acting like giambi is a problem, when i think he's clearly an asset. Maybe not the right fit for this team right now, but even then he's a trade asset when you flex the bank account.

311 that's the 1st time i've heard the phrase "impact starter" and livan hernandez used in the same sentence in a looooong time. have you actually seen livan pitch recently? he's the quintessential "weak-sister league" pitcher ...

318 In the NL.... long reliever in the AL

318 He does. But is that due to a couple of off years, or is he just in decline? If the latter, then there's no point in offering him anything at all.

301 ahhhhh... my Kingdom for a fixed width font!

300 Ecksteininess is the PS factor.

312 Good point about the Mitchell report. It might not be a bad idea to wait until it's released and see what names are there to avoid. When is its release date anyway?

309 But...if the Yankees had traded off a few regular season wins this year, they might not have made the postseason.

Basically, you're asking how to devise a team that would lose 3 more regular season games in exchange for 3 postseason wins. I have no idea how you do that. Strong 1-3 pitchers? Sure, but that wins games all the time. Everyone wants strong 1-3 pitchers if you can get them.

And even then, the postseason is largely a crapshoot. Detroit had a much, much better rotation than the Cardinals - except for those few days.

308 Tough to know how good the offense will be. They scored 950 runs or so this year. Now take away A-Rod, and assume that Posada does not have his best season again at 36, and figure more of teh same from 34 y.o. Jeter. How well does Giambi hit, assuming he is not injured again?

The offense is probably going to be formidable--especially if Abreu plays a whole season and Cano improves--but there is a lot of room for aging and regression as well.

323 I'll try not to let you down in the post-season.

If we've learned anything this October it's that Bonds doesn't pose, and admire his home runs long enough to win a championship.

Question: does ARod get to keep his pet midges, or are they property of the NY Yankees now?

330 The question has to be good pitching & decent hitting vs good hitting & decent pitching, then you choose the former. Otherwise it's moving goalposts.

329 it is supposed to drop "after the world series."

could be any second now.

313 Welcome to Yankee winter.

330 Right, this year that approach wouldn't have worked, I agree. So the idea is, you wouldn't make the post-season every year. But when you do, you have a better chance. (Like that Boston team, maybe.)

Yes, strong 1-3 does help in the regular season, too. But I'm suggesting (based on admittedly sketchy evidence) that it is more helpful in the post-season. So, spend less on hitters, more on top-of-the-line pitching, and you'll miss the play-offs from time to time but have a better shot at the whole ball of wax.

332 it doesn't matter.

you're my MVP and a first ballot HOFer.

Oh, and 330 : Yes, of course it's a crap shoot, still. I was very careful to add that the strategy of loading up on top starters is a way of improving your odds, and not a sure thing.
We all know that following the 2006 Cardinals recipe for winning the WS is nuts. If you can even call it a recipe.

In general, I'm opposed to signing or trading for middling starters, which was part of my problem with Igawa. (The rest of my problem was I didn't think he was even that good)

If you've decided to settle for your typical four or five starter (middling to poor pitcher than eats some innings) I'd rather just call up the DeSalvo's of the world than spend money or resources to get that non production.

339 I believe the 06 Card's recipe was "I'd rather be lucky than good"

Hmm, even Ken Rosenthal smells tampering:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7386758

If true, I wouldn't mind seeing a 1 year suspension for the player, agent and owner involved. . .

341 Exactly. Which was why I was reluctant to call it a 'recipe' at all. I wouldn't dine in a restaurant that used that recipe.

340 There's something to that, yeah.

I wonder if Roy Oswalt could be had for IPK & Tabata? maybe plus a Brett Gardner and/or Horne? I've totally lost it now, haven't I?

344 I think IPK, Melky and Tabata would be a formidable package for just about anyone, even Cabrera.

344 Doubt it. It's a pretty young contract, so unless something has changed to make the Astros want to shed salary, they must be pretty happy with Oswalt.

337 At no point along the way did the Yankees decide to emphasize hitting over pitching. They tried their best to get the best pitchers available. The problem is that the best pitchers usually aren't available.

And the problem certainly isn't that they didn't spend enough on pitchers.

345 Right, but it would also hurt the Yanks quite a bit.

344 Yes. Oswalt's injury tendencies also scare the heck out of me.

342 Now we have to hope Bud is really pissed about the mid-Serious announcement, so he'll actually, you know, enforce the rules.

343 i agree with your agreement with mattpat11's assessment. intelligence. i like it.

348 The Yankees would be giving up a lot, but I think it's worth it for a Cabrera or Santana, IMHO.

347 I don't buy that. The Red Sox added Josh Beckett and Dice-K. Maybe they over-spent for Dice-K. But the Yankees over-spent for Giambi. That's a difference in emphasis.

Of course, you're right that it's not just a matter of deciding to get top flight starting pitching. It has to be available for what you have to offer. But the same is true for all-star batters, and we got those.

347 If anything, they have at times emphasized defense too much at the expense of hitting, at least when considering certain positions. 1B has recently been a disaster. Before this season's moves, the bench was even worse.

352 Maybe at times the Yankee FO has emphasized defense over hitting, but come on, in general they've spent big, big bucks on guys who can hit but are questionable on defense. Abreu. Jeter. Matsui. Damon. Giambi. Posada.

Is it a crapshoot?
Sabathia PS: 8.80 ERA
Carmona was killer against us, but 7.20 ERA total PS.
Westbrook: 5.60 ERA
Byrd: 3.60 ERA (HGH enhanced?)

Yeah, great pitching is a key, but it has to show up. If Wang shows up and the midges don't, I still say we beat Cleveland.

Almost any MLB team can beat another team in a 5, or even 7 game series. Didn't we take 5 of 5 from Boston in Fenway that same year TB took 3 of 3 from us at Yankee Stadium? Any one series is a crapshoot. It's just that over the regular season (large sample size(, it evens out, and the better teams (and therefore better odds) typically win.

However, I thought the Mets had the best team in the NL and missed the PS. Shit happens.

The Sox played MUCH better in the PS, against top teams, then during the season.
I will say this about the Sox. For almost every player, in every AB, they looked relaxed. They looked like they knew they would win. I saw no panic or concern, ever. It pissed me off.

351 True enough, but going into 2002, the Yanks didn't need pitching. They did need a 1B who could hit. Giambi was that, and can still be it again, batting average be damned.

350 Too much replacement cost to give up Melky to get someone who needs a huge extension. And the options for free agent CFs are blah. All will want big bucks for many years. I feel like we were just talking about not going after hitters with those kinds of deals . . .

;)

324 Might it be possible that will ARod gone, we NEED Giambi in our lineup? I'd trade him (if that's possible) if we got Bonds, but otherwise not. People think JD or Mats as a DH will post better numbers then Jason?

351 The Red Sox acquired Beckett in a trade, so it's not like the Yankees were outbid. I am not sure they could have put together a package as attractive as Hanley. As for Dice K, he was a league average at the cost of $20mn/year. He also didn't pitch that well in the post season, so I don't think you can attribute the Red Sox winning to Dice-K's signing. Basically, the Red Sox won because they had the one pitcher who was money in the bank. If Hughes or Chamberlain can develop into such a species, the Yankees pitching will be fine.

354 *The Sox played MUCH better in the PS, against top teams, then during the season.
I will say this about the Sox. For almost every player, in every AB, they looked relaxed. They looked like they knew they would win. I saw no panic or concern, ever. It pissed me off.*

I'm with you there man. In start contract to our boys squeezing the 'dust outta the bats. This might just be sentiment and mumbo jumbo, but i think the postseason streak has so inflated expectations and pressure, it's been crushing. Bats this & last year, and inflicted Wang this PS even, he was over matched trying to be Johan Santana when he really just needed to be the Wanger. I know, i know, wishy washy tree hugging sentiment, but it sure seemed to be all over their faces.

man, what a day.

can you remember the last time, as a Yankees fan, you felt like this? Chaos, uncertainty? Maybe after the SP exodus of 2003.

I just try and picture the 2008 Yanks, worst case scenario:

C Molina
1b Duncan?
2b Cano
3b Betemit
SS Jeter
RF Damon
LF Matsui
CF Melky
DH Giambi

SP Wang, Hughes, Mussina, Chamberlain, IPK
RP Farnsworth, Veras, Ohlendorf, Britton ???

Bench Wil Nieves and ???????

355 Fair enough.
Still, my New Philosophy idea would be to pass on the 1B who can hit and go after the next very promising starting pitcher. So, you give up 30 runs this year. But next year you win a couple of extra post-season games. Good deal?

In the end, of course, there's a whole lot of luck involved. Who predicted that between Beckett and Willis, it would be Beckett who'd be the coveted ace in 2007? I do worry that my approach would have sold the farm system to get Willis. Ugh.

357 I think striking gold many times over with Okajima played a HUGE part as well.

Still, my New Philosophy idea would be to pass on the 1B who can hit and go after the next very promising starting pitcher

But is it really either/or for the Yankees? Can't they inevitably afford both?

355 Yes, but Cabrera isn't just a replacement. He is among a select group of candidates capable of being the best hitter in the game over the next 5-10 seasons. Questions about work ethic aside, I think you make exceptions for such a player. Also, while he certainly will cost a lot, I doubt his total contract would even amount to 2/3s of what Arod will get.

The "crapshoot" of short playoff series
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=5674

361 So, the Sox took their shots with Okajima, Dice-K, Gagne, and Beckett. Two out of the four panned out. Maybe that's the right approach?

They also took shots with Drew and Lugo, and although Drew did hit in late October, I think overall those moves were pretty awful.

So maybe we should look for some high up-side pitchers who might turn out to be mediocre? What about taking a crack at Gagne?

360 You mean like Pavano?

This is not a rhetorical question: Have there been any quality (decent #1 type) free agent pitchers after 2003?

Save for Andy Pettitte, who we got.

There have been great bats on the free agent market, but I can't think of any impact pitchers that the Yanks really missed on. Pedro was no difference maker.

244 I agree that the Yankees have to seriously consider signing Barry for one year with Alex gone. The more I think about this, I don't see how they can pass up Barry. He is the most talented power bat available and the Yankees need the run production. Barry would kill the pitching in the AL as a DH. Giambi will just have to play/split 1st.

362 Maybe. But not if part of the 'cost' is prospects (which is how the Sox landed Beckett).

365 The high risk approach seems to be the one we're taking with the draft, and it's one i agree with. Take risks & paper over the failures with the wads o cash.

366 i suppose you could argue that AJ Burnett and Zito are #1 starters.

366 Yeah, maybe that's right. Matt Clement didn't work out so well, either.
So I guess that means looking at trading prospects or else trying for a Japanese or Cuban FA pitcher. As to the first, should we be stepping up big time for Santana?

351 I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Spending for Giambi didn't prevent them from getting either Beckett or Matsuzaka. In one cae the Yankees simply didn't have the chips; in the other, they made a legitimate effort, but I don't think anyone could have foreseen Boston's gambit (and Boras's acquiescence...I still don't understand why he signed so cheap, and for so long).

Maybe the Yankees should have bid $75M or $100M just to make sure they outdid Boston. But I can't kill them for that one.

On the other hand, the Giants decided to make it a priority to get a #1 starter. They overpaid for Barry Zito.

HANK SUCKS

this needs to be mentioned, 1,000 times

370 Zito would have been a big mistake. Burnett, jury's still out.
369 Exactly. And for the Yankees, it's the only sensible approach in the draft. We just don't need any 107 OPS+ outfielders, etc. Except as trade bait.

[370 Zito is a joke. Burnett is real good, but like Pedro hardly ever healthy... Things get more sticky when you want lose draft picks, which i assume would've been a consequence of going for Burnett...

But man, this really means Johan is going to fucking clean up.

371 *the Giants decided to make it a priority to get a #1 starter. They overpaid for Barry Zito. * and got a #3 starter.

361 Absoultely...and I wouldn't be so sure that Okajima will be good next season (based on how he ended the season). In fact, the Red Sox have more than a few question marks themselves. Would anyone be surprised if Lowell, Lugo, Varitek and Drew hover around league average. Also, Pedroia is a candidate to regress. Basically, that means Manny and Ortiz will have to fuel the Red Sox offense again. Can both stay healthy? I don't know. On the pitching side, Wakefield and Schilling aren't locks to be meaningful contributors (or even on the team). Dice-K was pretty much league average. If he follows the typical curve of a Japanese pitcher, he could regress as well. That leaves Lester and Bucholz, who while promising are as much questions as IPK/Chamberlain/Hughes. In other words, the Red Sox do not have a team akin to the 1998 Yankees.

372 Okay, I admit I have to agree with you about the particulars.
So has Theo just been lucky? Does he ultimately have the same approach as Cashman, but with a somewhat lighter checkbook, and he just struck one or two rich veins?

357 I agree. On the whole, the Sox postseason was Beckett and then getting random good and bad starts from everyone else. Schill would be good one start, horrible the next. If Wang had pitched half as well as Beckett in the postseason we'd be talking about a historic Yankees/Sox ALCS and possibly a Yankees Serious win right now (it should also be said, that had the Sox played the Indians in the DS, they'd be watching the games on tv too).

If the kids can pitch well next year and develop this team can still be very good. The '96-'03 Yankees were about pitching. We didn't win because we had Scott Brosius, we won despite him because we had pitchers like Key, Cone, Wells and Clemens. If you look at the ERA+s for 1996-2003 and 2003-present you see a huge gap. In the first era we had one year that was close to average (2001-101) which was largely a factor of Cone imploding. Every other year was very good to excellent. Since then we've had one year above 100, and that was 2005 with a 102 or so.

If we go back to that model, I think this team will be more competitive in both the regular and postseason. Sure it'd be nice to have A-Rod around and still score 900+ runs with a juggernaut of a team. I remain convinced that with a decent 3B, and some marked improvement from 1B and a better bullpen (most likely from within) this can be a very competitive team.

Look at it this way, the Red Sox this year had only a team OPS+ of 107, compared to the 123 put up by the Yankees. The difference? A 123 ERA+ to a 99.

359 Unfortunately, Nieves was granted free agency, so the bench would be even weaker.

313 It's all the "..." People seem to be using them in excess today.

I mean, in excess today...

376 That was my point. Targeting a #1 pitcher and overspending for him isn't always so easy. You might end up with Barry Zito at $18M per.

377 And you didn't mention this:
Manny is ripe for decline. Seriously. I'll be shocked if he doesn't slide next year. Now, a declining Manny is still a good hitter, but it just looks very likely that they lose production.

375 Will Johan really clean up? He has to follow the Twins' FO lead. They won't trade him except for serious goods. That means Santana can't just look for the best $$$.
Or are you thinking he might sit tight on his contract, no matter what the Twins do, and aim for free agency? In that case he sure does clean up, barring major problems between now and next year.

379 It was Beckett & then Okajima bailing out the other OKish starters. Also, Francona seemed to always push the right button, if you judge by the results (and if you judge ignoring the results there's still little room to quibble).

Dice-K had a PS ERA of 5.03 over 19.2 innings. Granted, that was helped by shaky relievers, but I hardly call that impact pitching, or worth $17m/yr.

Here's a formula that might work.
7 of 9 position players have a better OPS in the PS then during the year. Then throw in a little used Rookie, and he posts a .950 OPS.

379 I couldn't agree more... pitching is what rings the bell. but, when it comes down to it, how many santanas/beckets/webbs/peavys are there? i think there are four or five elite guys, and an ocean of number 2 or 3s.

chamberlain could be that guy. heck, IPK or Hughes could be too. most teams have to wait and see with their young pitchers, the Yankees usually don't give them a chance; not that I'm rooting for Westbrook, Halsey, Milton and Brandon Claussen to come back home.

382 But the team that trades for him almost has to sign him to a long-term contract. Otherwise they're giving up some huge package for a one-year (or less) rental.

UHH... the red sox look great, are you kidding?

Dice-K is still adjusting to the majors.. he's probly the best japanese pitcher to ever come play here, and will only get better

Pedroia is their Derek Jeter .. a great average hitter, clutch, and spark plug type guy .. not to mention he can play 2B or SS, giving the sox some nice options in the next DECADE

Ellsbury is the real deal, not a flash .. he was drafted to replace Damon and i think their scouts knew what they were doing with this one

Lester is still a very promising looking 23 year old pitcher

then theres Papelbon, and a crafty GM ...

BECKETT, MANNY, ORTIZ

the sox look great, just be jealous dammit... they did a good job

359 Please don't ever, ever type shit like that again. we don't all have strong hearts.

384 How about also getting to feast on Carmona & Sabathia after the Yanks wore them out. I can get on board with that narrative. Lets convince ourselves all the hyperbolic stuff about the Sawx plate discipline & ability to grind out the Indians pitchers was because the Yanks had already tired them out the previous week. Not an unreasonably thought.

They do look great right now. Let's see if all those developments happen as you predict. I doubt it.

385 I think they will. Maybe Hughes, Chamberlain and IPK will turn into Smoltz, Glavine and Mussina in their primes? Don't forget there's also people like Sanchez, Horne and Ohlendorf down there too. And in a couple of years we could have an OF of Jackson, Melky and Tabata. No, I remain convinced the issues this year are resigning Posada, finding someone to apprentice and eventually replace him, improving 1B and now finding a 3B. I think the BP can be improved from within and possibly with a good (minor) signing or two.

386 Of course. But I'm saying Santana might not be able to clean up in that scenario, because his bargaining power would be limited. I bet he does much better by waiting. The Twins need him to commit to signing long term with whatever team they trade him to, but that doesn't mean he has to do it.

Hm, next year's pitching FAs look awfully good. Santana. Peavy. Lackey. CC. Penny. Julian Tavarez.

(393 contained a joke, in case anyone wasn't sure.)

378 Just imagine if you told Theo in March that Drew and Lugo would be below average players and Dice K would be just above average. I am sure he would have turned green. The Red Sox recipe was an effective bullpen, thanks largely to Okajima (who even Theo would admit wasn't thought to be a major acquisition) and the emergence of Beckett. Of course, the Beckett deal was made when Theo was sent into exile. When that deal was looking like a bust, more than a few rumors circulated that Theo wasn't in favor of the deal. Sometimes, it is better to be lucky than good.

367 You want to see the GREATEST reason for signing Bonds? Look at the lineup posted in 359 (but only if you have a strong heart)!

388 I didn't even mention the potential FA signings we could be looking at:

Bartolo Colon
Paul Lo Duca
Sammy Sosa
The Newest and Probably Last Incarnation of David Wells
Victor Zambrano
Geoff BLummmmmarghhhhhhhhhhblhahaha!

Ok, random idea of the day. How about Miguel Tejada for 3B? The Orioles want him gone, he could probably be gotten for mostly cash and a few lesser prospects.

I think we need an official betting pool for WHO signs, and for HOW MUCH and how LONG, 'he who shall not be named II'

398 I actually thought about that earlier this year when he was the subject of yet another round of trade rumors... except move him to 2nd - so we could trade for Nomar and have the All-90s SS infield of DOOOOM!

397 Wow.
Does this year's FA class of pitchers expect to be paid in the $17M/year range?? I find it hard to believe. Surely no high-rolling clubs are going to dish out mega$ to these guys.

sorry.. hate to be honest .. but lets face the truth and not be babies about it .. HANK SUCKS, and the sox look good.. its truth :(

Buster Olney listed the Tigers today as a possible dark-horse candidate in the A-Rod Sweepstakes, but kffl.com just reported that the Tigers have traded for Renteria.

Does anyone recall the conclusion of the 'Do the Yanks get comp draft picks if/when ARod opts out?' question? The answer was 'yes', right? Sweet. Better than nothing.

Dodger Thoughts seems to think (collectively) that Torre may well be their new manager.

404 I think we do get picks if the Yanks offer arbitration.

403 Well that's good, it must mean Lillibridge will play SS for the Braves, instead of CF, so ATL needs a CF. Hello ATL, meet Johnny Damon...

From PeteAbe:

Robbie Cano did a radio show today. He found out that A-Rod opted out from one of this friends. Alex didn't even call a teammate he claimed to care so much about. Class guy.

407 The Braves got an OF in the deal. Gorkys Hernandez. No idea whether they'd intend to start him next year.

408

... A-Rod was busy collecting his Silver Slugger award in Colorado ... oh wait ...

394 Yeah, who needs Sabathia?

378 Beckett and Lowell were major contributors in both the regular season and PS. They paid dearly for them. I think the bottom line is Boston was faster to start taking their farm seriously.

The Yankees are on the right track, but a few years behind Boston in terms of developing talent.

I wonder if we have reached a new 'ceiling' point in respect to FAs. It really seems, like in the old days, developing talent from within is the answer. Yes, having money to augment a lineup with some high priced FAs will be helpful, but you can't build a team around them, nor make up for lack of a farm.

I think Cashman sees this... Big Stein, into instant gratification, did not.

Okay, I just looked at BP, and it's clear that Gorkys Hernandez isn't MLB-ready. So the Braves do still need a CF.

407 But also bad for the Yanks, as Renteria + Guillen makes the Tigers a lot more formidible than Casey + Guillen.

Besides, who would you replace Damon with right now? (And why would Atlanta be silly enough to believe Damon can actually, you know, still play CF?)

406 The Yanks will definitely offer arbitration to A-Rod.

409 Just looked at the details, BP has an unfiltered look. Great trade by the Tigers, they don't need a toolsy CF and a 4th starter, but did need a SS. But the OF the braves got is going to be in High A next year, they'll still need a CF. JD, Braves; Braves, JD.

the way HANK talks.. they won't offer arbitration .. he SUCKS

411 Had to check my own posting for that one.

409 MLBTraderumors indicates he's far from ready.

379 "Look at it this way, the Red Sox this year had only a team OPS+ of 107, compared to the 123 put up by the Yankees. The difference? A 123 ERA+ to a 99. "

Here is wisdom.

416 Dude, get over it. Nobody likes a broken record. Well, OK, we beat dead horses all the time, but the posts tend to have a point.

412 Actually, I disagree. The Sox and Marlins both got really lucky with Hanley, in their own way. He was, at the time, the "jewel" of the Sox system, and he has, for Florida, hit 10000 times better than his mL numbers would ever suggest.

416 Dude, we get it, you don't like Hank. Why do you keep repeating yourself?

422 420 Weird.

he sucks .. it needs to be repeated everyday, so he's driven out of town

420 , 422 Ignore the troll

Metabanter:
Why is the current discussion so much more rational than the Joe Torre discussion?
Discuss.

419 What could be funny about this, is if the Yankees pitching improves that much this year they could make a run at it and then everyone will point to how it was all A-Rod's fault (incorrectly) that they sucked while he was here. I will laugh, and laugh a lot if that outcome comes to be.

424 Seriously? The guy is the owner's son, and on the Boss's death, a co-owner in the team. How, exactly, is he ever going to be driven out of town? Unless he himself decides to leave. Because people (such as yourself) keep telling him he sucks?

Please.

yes, stay quiet about Hank... brilliant

427 I'm pretty sure we've all been thinking something like that, in fact.
And we'll all join in, but we'll know and admit to ourselves and each other that A-Rod is getting screwed by the press yet again. That will be fun.

how? .. i can only think of one solution ... .. get multiple rich, wealthy baseball fans to buy them out

426 There were mixed emotions about Torre. Some loved him, some hated him.

I don't think anybody loves Arod right now.

429 I'll respond to this one more time. What precisely has he done that upsets you? He said he wouldn't negotiate with A-Rod? In fact backing up his GM. He said the decision on the new manager would be made by his GM and they would approve the recommendation? He sucks why?

412 One of the interesting things is what you touched on: The Red Sox, for all their talk of a rejuvenated farm system etc, are pretty much looking at most of their farm system talent in the major right now/next year. Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester, Buccholz, Ellsbury, Delcarmen. They can talk about Masterson and Bard and the like, but until they actually do anything noteworthy in the minors, they are the definition of overrated. Their system, if you really look at it, is pretty much in the majors right now. Not that thats a bad thing at all, mind you.

The Yankees, however, are where the Sox were last year, in that the young players are just getting to the majors ready to make an impact. Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, Gardner, Melancon, Ohlie, Edwar are poised to make an impact, but it might be another season before we really see that pay off (and there are a lot more on the way, mind you). Add that to a likely trade along the lines of the Beckett one (at least for some blue chip prospects or so) and the Yankees are just like you said, a year or two behind.

The big difference being that a) the Yankees already have the likes of Melky, Wang and Cano up there, and b) have a lot more in the farm system to work with...

431 Go get started on it.

430 Like I said, I hope A-Rod has a nice time rotting in SF.

426 I think we all had huge emotional investments in Joe Torre. He did what almost none of us have seen in our lifetimes - 3 straight Serious wins for the Yanks. (Was even OYF around the last time that happened, ie, '51-'53?)

A-Rod was awesome and all, but its not the same. Even those of us who were his biggest supporters (like me) are only too happy to figure out a rational way to improve the team without the guy who didn't want to stay.

I won't make the last obvious point, because I refuse to re-start the damned Torre repeating.

ok, yankz .. are you with me?

i will yankz.. are you with me?

437 At least we've moved on from the Randy Johnson trade.

Oh shit, I hope I didn't open that again.

439 Let me know when you make your first billion. Then I'm in.

434 Sweet, thank you, Zack.

So, there must be ways to employ the gigantic $$$ advantage to make the farm system awesome, right? One way is to grab guys from obscure places around the world, because we can pay for the scouting. Another is to draft the risky, high ceiling players and sign them, which other teams can't afford to do because of the probability that they're ultimately worthless. Any other tactics?

405 looks like they were right.

http://tinyurl.com/3dx9vh

Gammons flipping out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVS04n3Q3mI

Who's Hank?

442 Make sure the people teaching the kids on the farm are the best damned instructors in the world. World-class facilities, world-class treatment. And world-class signing bonuses. Make every top prospect drool at the thought of getting picked by the Yanks.

oh no, not me.. i need to contact some rich people and give them the idea ... in the meantime, Hank really does suck .. he doesnt even like baseball

442 Invest in coaching.

444 Jesus.
I have this dim recollection that I used to care about what Peter Gammons said.

444 , 446 Worked pretty well in the 50's . . .

446 Good, right. Because draftees don't have to sign with the team that drafts them, and the cost for them is low (unlike the NFL or NBA).

sorry that should have been 442 . . . and the 40's . . .

444 Gammons was pissed about A-Rod's timing on Cowherd today (hey, all the other stations had ads on, and it was only for a couple of minutes that I listened to Colin)

449 I have, on my desk at work, a Gold Gym's card signed by Peter Gammons. Friends of mine ran into him at the Fenway Gold's once, and got his autograph for me, because they knew how much I loved the guy.

Ever since he ran for "President of RSN", I just don't care so much anymore.

Hank is Hank Steinbrenner .. new owner of the yankees

Okay. All things said and done, four years later, with the expectations going in, the results coming out, the melodrama, the headlines, the articles and so on.

Was A-Rod more headaches than he was worth?

449 After 2003, he very confidently proclaimed that Pettitte would return.

I never listened to a thing he said again.

i bet they go after Blalock, because his name is HANK

456 No. Without him they don't make the playoffs in 05 or 07.

456 No. Watching him destroy the league in April, and throughout the year, was worth an awful lot.

They sort of seem fake now, in retrospect, but some of those moments he had with Robby and Melky throughout the year were also worth a lot.

Screw the headaches.

It cracks me up the people on PeteAbe's site who just last week said that the Yanks NEED to sign ARod to now saying "Who needs him?" Probably the same fans who said the Yanks should trade him after 2006.

Personally, I liked ARod every moment he was a Yankee and think that the media and NY fans didn't appreciate him. Granted he may not be appreciated anywhere, but the ARod love/hate relationship was getting ridiculous. I was hoping he opted out and was a SS again. I don't blame him for not wanting to play in front of a bunch of fair-weather entitled fans. Like with Torre, I think this is good for both parties. The Yanks need to figure out how to win without having 25% of their budget on 2 players and fix their pitching to get to Boston's level.

Who's up for a little A-Rod pop psychology? Well, herr doctor, what's going on in his head? What can we deduce?

1. All that "want to be a Yankee 4 evah!" nonsense was nonsense.
2. The money's probably not the issue, otherwise why opt out -- we'd pay him more than anyone?
3. A-Rod can be a bit of a delicate flower.

The way I see it, it's probably a personal decision for A-Rod. If I had to guess (and I do) our newest pariah signed in the hopes of getting a WS ring for his trouble and gave himself a horizon. He doesn't see the '08 Yankees with or w/o A-Rod as a WS team, and has gotten tired of the pressure cooker that is NYC. I think he's looking to go somewhere he'll be appreciated and not have to deal with the invasiveness of the NY sports media. He didn't handle it well, but I think if you read between the lines a little, that's what's going on -- if he's not going to win a WS, he's not going to put up with the crap he's had to put up with.

Then again, there's option B) he's a complete and utter ass. ATM, I'm leaning towards that explanation.

456 The Yankees got their money's worth from Arod...the relevant question is would they have gotten their money's worth going forward.

462 Whoa, for a second, I had a completely different interpretation of "ATM." Think Clerks 2.

I think it's a little of both.

aROD'S issue was this ... he didn't understand what Hank meant by "the team is in transition" .. he doesn't want to be on a rebuilding team ... obviously, we aren't the marlins, but Hank still has a big fat mouth

Also, for the '08 season:

1b - Duncan
2b - Cano
SS - Jeter
3b - Acquire Wright from Mets in Daring Midnight Raid!
C - Posada
LF - Matsui
CF - Cabrera
RF - Abreu
DH - Damon/Giambi

Let it ride, baby.

451 Well, the team who drafts a player has the rights to that player for a year, I think.

But yeah, the Yanks have been taking advantage of this tactic a while now, drafting guys and paying them well above slot (i.e. Brackman, Suttle). I believe one of the trio of Joba, Phil or Kennedy also fell into the above-slot category. These are talented guys who slip because other teams are scared of signability.

464 For that, I'm afraid, I have to assign you 1 BAP.

467 I think Joba fell because of injury concerns and IPK because of a lackluster senior (or was it junior?) year.

I think the best example is Betances.

Gammons' point is valid, but it would hold more weight if it didn't come from a man who has allowed himself to become little more than a Red Sox PR Man. Gammons hasn't been relevant, or for that matter, honest in a long time.

468 I got nothing.

From WW: Just heard Michael Kay on The Michael Kay Show on ESPN Radio (1050 AM in NYC) say that, according to a very close friend of Alex Rodriguez, A-Rod is nervous about the direction of the Yankees, and, A-Rod doesn't want to be the guy who is blamed when the Yankees don't win, but, still, A-Rod's first choice in terms of where he wants to play is the Yankees.

Talk about an equation that doesn't balance, huh?

469 As I understand it, the injury/performance concerns went hand-in-hand with the signability issues. Eventually, the Yanks did sign both Joba and Kennedy with above-slot bonuses, I think, just like Angelini. And yes, Dellin is another example of that IIRC.

471 Banter Abuse Points

472 Oh, so that's why they didn't wait and make their decision when they had more info about who would be manager, who would re-sign, and so on. Now it's all clear.

472 What a jackass. I'm nervous about the direction of the team, so I won't once meet with the front office or give them 10 freaking days to start working on their other free agents. I can't handle any more blows to my image, so I'm going somewhere where the press won't blame me as much. But yeah, I'd like to be back, honest!

Derek Jeter: My favorite player forever.

472 ...hrm. That doesn't actually sound all that crazy. I mean, it's probably bogus, but at least it starts to explain how he could go from "I love NY" to walking away so quickly.

But, it's probably a bogus explanation. If he's concerned, why doesn't he just pick up the phone.

I think from ARods POV, the Yankees are still a possibility

473 You got that right! Gammons drools over every Redsox player. Disgusting to see him on a major network.

475 Maybe Boras snuck into A-Rod's house and moved all the clocks/calendars/computers up 10 days?

Robbie Cano did a radio show today. He found out that A-Rod opted out from one of this friends. Alex didn't even call a teammate he claimed to care so much about. Class guy.

From Lohud.

To be fair, of course, Robinson Cano isn't Alex Rodriguez, so we can't reasonably expect Alex to give a shit about him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/player?station=nyc
Michel Kaye LIVE right now

472 If Kay's source is right and Arod really just want to see what he is worth, I guess he and Boras could always give the Yankees a $21mn discount off the next highest offer (assuming he really does want to return to the Yankees). That would be a sign of his good faith, and also provide the necessary cover for the Yankees front office to back track from its hardline stance.

472 Yeah - I am glad we got that cleared up - major jackass.
Though I do believe that is some of the nonsense he is spitting out - I am also tired of all these guys' "friends" though.

483 Ha!
(And with that, I retire that expression from my own personal use. To me it is now 134 .)

479 When Gammons went on National TV and claimed that Beckett's blister was a notablister caused by a defective baseball, he should have been fired on the spot.

484 Ms. October, will we have to say goodbye to you on Thursday? Or will you adopt a new name?

;-)

485 Dude! Look who wrote 134 !

488 Uh. Because of his namesake?

Gotta go. I'll check in later to get the answer to your mystery.

Donnie B is apparently "crushed." A friend of 25 years says he wanted to manage the Yankees more than anything else, ever.

462 478

My two cents, but I think yesterday was more about Boras than A-Rod. Boras doesn't like a situation where he has only one team bidding for his player's services. I don't think he or A-Rod are convinced that the Yankees' "buh-bye" is real. I think Boras wants the Yankees' in the bidding, or else the market for A-Rod might be artificially depressed.

It's a gamble on Boras' part, but he rarely loses.

489 OH, I got joejoejoe and joe in boston mixed up. I wonder which one's Torre and which one's Girardi.

490 The Mattingly fallout hurts. For any Yankee fan who came of age in the 1980s, losing Mattingly hurts so much more than Arod and Torre combined. Even though I think Girardi was probably the better choice, it saddens me to think of Donnie Baseball not wearing #23 in pinstripes.

491 Boras doesn't like a situation where only one team is bidding. Rodriguez doesn't like a situation that isn't about A-Rod. The move reeks of Boras. The timing reeks of Rodriguez.

no torre .. no mattingly .. no a-rod .. but its all ok, cuz we got Hank now :(

Via LoHud, Cashman speaks:

"I received a message from Scott Boras last night informing me that Alex Rodriguez formally opted out of the final three seasons of his contract. We always understood that it was his contractual right to do so.

We expressed our interest in keeping him in pinstripes, and requested the opportunity to convey those feelings to him directly with the Steinbrenner family in an open, face-to-face dialogue.

Alex was a key part of our success over the last four seasons, and I appreciate having the opportunity to work with him. I wish Alex, Cynthia and their growing family the best of luck in the future. I only wish we could have raised a championship trophy together during his time here, which was the ultimate goal we all shared."

495 How is Hank to blame for A-Rod being a self obsessed jackass?

Not for nothing, but the Yankees seem somewhat overly anxious to turn the page. It also makes me think they wanted Arod to opt out. First Torre and now Arod...could it be the Yankees have mastered the art of mind control :) - sarcasm fully intended

497 IGNORE THE TROLL!

496 Oh come on Cash, take the gloves off! "He was a menace and a distraction, and we were never going to win with his inability to handle pressure."

499 I'm trolling?

501 Not you...the comment you replied to.

501 No, but you're responding to one (the newbie).

496 Now that is classy. Score one for our GM.

Ah.

Now that Girardi is all but the manager, I wonder who his coaches might be. Would anyone be suprised to see him assemble a few of his buddies from the 1996 team? Maybe Jimmy Key, O'Neill (if they can drag him off his couch), Tino, etc.? It could be interesting. That might offset the sting of losing Mattingly and Guidry (who gets lost in all this), basically replacing one era's heros with another.

Mattingly wants to manage very badly. Might follow Torre to LA and wait for offers after that.

His is "extremely disappointed".

504 "Growing family"..."little family"...hmm? :)

506 It should be Kevin Long and Dave Eiland. O'Neill doesn't want to be on the road away from his family. He never broadcasted a game that wasn't in the midwest last year. No idea on Key. I suppose Tino could be a possibility, but I doubt it.

504 The one thing is, this comes off as damage control. The Yankees don't need to be running damage control here. For once, we're the good guys.

I think Hank's "Obviously he didn't want to be a Yankee" was a far better statement.

It makes its point, that Alex Rodriguez is a jackass, without resorting to any obvious personal attacks.

510 It's funny how the Yankees front office has gone from being bad guys to good guys thanks to Arod.

mattingly's son plays for LA ..very interesting

I'd love to see Tino back, but I doubt it. Has he ever indicated a desire to coach?

I hope Pena or Bowa stays as bench coach.

Let's see...Girardi's a catcher, Bowa was an IF...they could use a good OF coach. I don't think they've had one since Mazzilli. We want Chad Curtis!

487 Ha ha ! No, I am in it for the long haul now that I have gotten so into the BB. But I do step up big in October :)

496 Cashman and Donnie too - not sure if there has been any mention of his statement.

Nice job, Cashman. I hope that he is starting a new trend of saying farewell without trashing people on the way out of the door.

491 I agree to some extent.

If you believe that the Yankees were bluffing, in part, here is why opting out early makes sense.

The Yankees presumably had a bottom line offer they would make to A-Rod. Had Boras waited until 10 days after the WS, he could have gotten the Yankees to come pretty close to their bottom line number.

At that point it would have been almost impossible -- literally, physically painful -- for the Yankees to turn around after offering their bottom line number and tack on an extra $30M once A-Rod entered free agency.

BUT, because A-Rod opted-out before the Yankees got beyond their initial offer, the Yankees can probably afford to bid more than their starting number and still bid less than their perceived bottom line amount.

Boras may be betting that IF he can convince the Yankees to sit down with him during the free agency period, he will be able to drag them to opening the vault during the negotiations. And the best way to convince the Yankees to sit down is to make it enticing to just enter into discussions. And the best way to do that was to not get the Yankees invested and disappointed in pre-opt-out discussions. Cut to the chase, as it were.

Dodgers wanted: (1) Girardi (2) Torre.
Girardi talking about non-Yankee friends as coaches. Harkee from the Cubs? Don't know the guy.

507 He should be extremely disappointed--if he wasn't, I would wonder about his zeal and commitment. That said, I am sad for him, but I assume he'll land on his feet. If he really wants to manage, will he take a job elsewhere, or is he determined only to manage the Yankees?

Leave it to A-Rod to make a shady PR move. Did he make any good impressions off the field?

506 Buster Olney suggests Mike Harkey will be one of the coaches. Olney also stated that the Dodgers have maintained contact with Girardi regarding their managerial position, and are waiting to see how the negotiations with the Yankees proceed. If Girardi does join the Yankees, Torre is almost a lock to go to LA. It's funny how Girardi has jumped ahead of Torre on the managerial list.

Olney also said based on all the people he has talked to, it seems more and more as if Torre and the Yankees parting ways was inevitable, and that no one was really insulted.

513 I have a feeling that Pena was really interviewing for bench coach - Bowa and Giradi might be too intense a duo.

Every shot of Giradi in FL it looks like he has his cellphone or blackberry clipped to his pants - i really hope he doesn't do that when he is back in pinstripes.

Shit! Kaye just interviewed Boras and I missed it! Boras said he was sorry about the 'timing' and thought the announcement would be made Monday. ARod was unhappy about the Yankee 'leaks' about a proposed salary.
Detroit seems high in the running for ARod.

Brandon Inge anyone?

517 Harkey was a journeyman pitcher who was a Girardi teammate in Chicago. He is 41...the youth movement continues.

516 Agreed. I am still not convinced the Yankees don't make some sort of offer...as I posted earlier, at least what they would have offered minus Texas' share. That's still ahefty sum, and may still outbid anything another team can offer in terms of years/dollars.

Remeber that Bernie Williams was a Boras client and was all but signed, sealed, and delivered to Boston until that happy Thanksgiving day announcement.

haha .. Boras is such a liar ,, that announcement came just in time, right before the end of the world series ... perfect timing, and well executed at that

522 Arod and Sheffield on the same team. Forget Boston...Detroit jumps ahead as the most hated opponent.

522 I think A-Rod would play SS. I heard Pena is moving to first.

Brandon Inge 2007 OPS+ = 80
Career = 85

No and no. Betemit could do that.

520 You are still obsessed with Joe Torre. Get help. You need it.

527 You mean Guillen is moving to 1st. Of course, the Tigers just traded for Edgar Renteria, so I presume Arod would have to play 3B.

I was very busy the past few days and haven't got a chance to check Yankees-related news. I did just now and it's like Bam, Bam, Bam! The Yankee world I know of has been turned upside down.

527 Pena?

If you mean Guillen, then yeah, but he has to accomodate Renteria, who I don't think can play other positions.

532 Guillen, I'm sory.

529 I guess you missed Alex' request that you stop substituting rational arguments with you personal attacks? Too bad. It seems as if you are obsessed with me. While I am flattered, I am not interest in an internet groupie. Try Buster Olney.

Man, even ESPN Radio sucks.

Kay is stupid, they didn't pay Clemens a full 28 million.

535 Kay has had a ton of breaking information though.

I believe ARod tells Boras where 'he wants to go', but Boras does the driving. As 516 says and I said earlier, this may be a way to test the market AND have the Yankees in it. And 516 is right. By NOT taking an offer from the Yankees, the Yankees can STILL make a first offer, and therefore not lose face.

Maybe thats wmy Cashman's comment was so 'sweet'. Not burning any bridges... and he didn't mention NOT bidding again on ARod.

Boras is a smart guy. Viz is gone. $50m freed up already.

537 Yeah. Guess that's the price we have to pay.

522 Yes, I'm sure Scott Boras, the most elite agent in the game just up and "messed up" the timing of the most important move by his most important client.

In other news, I heard that Dick Cheney has decided to declassify who killed Kennedy.

thats it... i'm firing Hank and selling the team to a collective group of yankee fans

cashman is next

this sh*t has to stop NOW

Michael Kay
Is on the Radio Today
And he ain't afraid to Say
What he's thinking
(Of course)

To the tune of Hey Ya!

What fucking moron wrote this song?!?! Why wasn't he fired?!

538 I dunno, I would think if A-Rod was brought back now, he'd be a leper in the clubhouse. It'd make the treatment that Reggie got in '77 look like a hippie love fest.

537 539 Anything really earth shattering?

Carlos Pena is a FA? Am I reading this correctly?

http://tinyurl.com/3bh5s9

544 Not really, no. Donnie's devastated :(

544 See 517 , 520 and 522 .

545 for some reason, he said he wants to stay with the devil fishes. other snag = agent:scott boras

546 547 Thanks - I think Girardi is a good choice - but poor Donnie. I wish they/he would have handled his coaching progression slightly differently.

545 but why is he not listed for the 2008 fas?

545 he's arb eligible, only 3 years service time ... he's not going anywhere ... at least until he's a free agent

545 I don't think he has enough service time for free agency. He spent a lot of time in the minors since his debut.

549 Not sure. I think thelarmis is right, and he stays in TB.

unless the fishies decide they don't want to pay whatever he gets in arbitration ... but i think that's unlikely

1B - Dunn
3B - Blalock

Did Kay just say Arod would be willing to play short for Boston? Please tell me I'm wrong.

everytime i read that list of 2008 fas i spot another loser - jeez it is awful

555 He said that as a hypothetical.

557 Phew. Thanks.

555 that would be in keeping with theo bringing in a new ss every year :)

555 You know, part of me wants to see that just because he would then be booed mercilessly everywhere home, away, everyfuckingwhere.

Of course the rational part of my brain looks at an A-Rod, Ortiz, Manny heart of the order and quakes in fear. That team could be the '98 Yankees.

i'm sure arod will play short for any team thats a contender

Heyman thinks the opposite of what I've mostly read here. He thinks Arod liked it here, but left for more money.

555 I can just imagine the havoc he'd wreak when Ortiz and Manny overshadowed him.

559 Maybe its cursed since Nomar left, a la the Defense Against the Dark Arts post?

564 So they have to kill Nomar?

mattpat - that will never happen, you dolt... he wants to go to a ws .. not fight with superstars .. geez

565 Maybe, first they have to find the Elder Bat and maybe some Horcruxes that allow Nomar to come back to life playing another position.

i was just exploring the arb eligible list in cot's - i have never truly understood how this works - do the yanks have to do something with cano and cmw this winter?

I just remembered something about Girardi. When he was with the Marlins, he put on catching gear and caught his pitchers to get to know them better. Badass.

man, Cot's is just an awesome site ... i had a question about a-rod's old contract, since everyone keeps talking about offering him arbitration and i could swear i remember a clause that he couldn't be offered arb if he opted out

turns out i was half-right:

"club may offer salary arbitration if Rodriguez voids contract 2007-09, but club may not offer salary arbitration after 2010"

567 Elder Bat- amazing. I heard it got buried with Ruth, though.

Oh, for the lineup people out there. I present the starting rotations comparison:

2007: Pavano (!), Wang, Pettite, Mussina, Igawa

2008: Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Moose, Pettite(?)

C'mon, at least Carl Pavano can't be our opening day starter this year ;). Or has he been progressing through his rehab extra fast?

567 i think the curse lives on - what position is left for him?

572 I hear he's on the La-Z-Boy workout program.

568 Yes...they need to pay them a nice salary this season.

571 Nah, Minky seems to have taken it to go along with the Sacred Ball of Ressurection. He at one time possessed two of the three Deathly Hallows.

557 I thought he said a friend of ARods said that ARod said that. Heyman also said he thought a ARod could get a LOT more then the Yankee offer.

560 I could see him being overshadowed, doing something stupid to rectify it, pout when there are repercussions and dragging the whole team into the A-Rod Abyss.

That could be fun.

573 Well, I hear the Yankees can use another DH to platoon against knuckleballers or something.

576 Jeter's jersey must be the 3rd. Try as they might, the press just cannot get anything on him.

580 Excellent! I would have gone with Torre's made of magical Teflon, but I like yours better.

I'm going to reserve judgment on Arod's motivation. If he gets a much, much bigger contract, it's because he's a greedy piece of shit. If he doesn't, it's because he's a lying, misleading piece of shit who couldn't handle any more attacks on his image.

580 Or about about A-Rod's? Makes you invisible in the playoffs? ;)

583 Ooh, nice...no, I don't want him to have anything sacred.

582 I still like to think its option number three. He's a piece of shit that wants to be the biggest star wherever he goes.

577 I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

575 okay, thanks

579 sounds dangerous - like you could pull a hamstring or something doing that

584 He was merely not the true heir to it. Its rightful owner has yet to be found.

587 It was a groin, and having done that myself (though not as bad), trust me it sucks. A lot. You remember how difficult rolling over in bed can be when one of your legs doesn't move.

seeya guys.. i'm off to assassinate Hank and his Dad.. wish me luck

583 yeah, whatever team A-Hole ends up on next, he should add a "4" to his uniform #, making him...#134!!!

591 Nice, I was wondering if anyone would get that joke ;).

582 I am not the police, but calling ARod a 'greedy piece of shit' or a 'lying, misleading piece of shit' is 100% out of line. What he is, is a great baseball player, doing what EVERY PLAYER DOES... looking out for himself.

Maybe you could find better ways to express your anger or disappointment....

I assume most of us make decisions based on what is best for us and our families. I see no reason ARod should not also have that option.

He gave up playing SS to play on the Yankees. We should NOT forget that. NY treated him like shit for 3 years. In many ways, we don't deserve him.

593 Agreed, but I also think calling Randy Levine a dipshit is also out of line ;)

I definitely second your premise. Any Yankee fan who booed Arod for one second shouldn't utter one word of judgement. Now, most here supported him, so that point isn't as relevant. Still, Yankee fans don't have any right to feel betrayed. Having said that, once Arod dons another uniform, I stop actively rooting for him.

brian cashman's statement via pete abe:

"I received a message from Scott Boras last night informing me that Alex Rodriguez formally opted out of the final three seasons of his contract. We always understood that it was his contractual right to do so.

We expressed our interest in keeping him in pinstripes, and requested the opportunity to convey those feelings to him directly with the Steinbrenner family in an open, face-to-face dialogue.

Alex was a key part of our success over the last four seasons, and I appreciate having the opportunity to work with him. I wish Alex, Cynthia and their growing family the best of luck in the future. I only wish we could have raised a championship trophy together during his time here, which was the ultimate goal we all shared."

593 The family that he publically humiliated when he traipsed around Toronto with his whore?

And what about this wasn't misleading?

And I'm sorry, every baseball player does not interrupt the world series so they can be the center of attention. Again.

594 I don't feel betrayed. But I am a bit put off by his horseshit excuses and explanations, and what are now in retrospect pretty clear lies about his plans. That being said, such negotiating tactics and rationalizations after the fact are par for the course in professional sports, so it makes A-Rod no worse than his peers.

not sure if it's been mentioned, but cano heard about a-rod opting out from a friend. alex didn't even have the class to call a teammate he apparently cared for so dearly. good riddance.

i'm glad it's girardi over mattingly, but it's sad how hurt and disappointed donnie baseball is. perhaps he'll be torre's bench coach in LA. would be something if A-Hole ends up w/ the Halos and Torre w/ the Dodgers...

593 While I agree that using that language is out of line, the sentiment is not. With all due respect Mr. Moss, Mr. Sprewell, Mr. Rodriguez, no fan wants to hear that you are looking out for your family. His family is taken care of, and to use that excuse is insulting. He's not deciding to quit a job with health insurance to pursue something he loves to do without insurance for his family. He's not like you. He's not like me. He has not one thing in common with either of us. He will actually make less money this way.

The fact is the guy is a narcicist. Numbers do not a good human being make. It doesn't mean he's not a great player. It does however mean that when you do what he just did in the way that you did it, the timing of it, you are a selfish person who needs attention. Good ridance. Letting Boston enjoy the spotlight for a few days would not have affected his free agency one bit, and for that I say get lost! At least Barry is openly a selfish ass hole, while Alex wants to have his cake and eat it too. Here is to hoping his name is in the Mitchell report.

When your have twice as many K's as base hits in your career post-season, you aren't a Yankee anyway. He isn't worthy of carrying Manny Ramirez's laundry bag.

597 Yes, overt and knowing lies. Not acceptable PR statements.

PREDICTION: ARod tests the market and gives the Yankees a last shot to meet his best offer. Maybe even a small break for the $30m Texas money the Yankees lost.

596 Again, you are talking out of your a**hole. I was married and faithful to my wife. I was allowed to go out with whomever I pleased. Again, you want to pretend to know what 'really happened' and then pass judgement? Being seen with another woman is not illegal or immoral. Neither is going to strip clubs.

Who are you, or anyone here, who know nothing and still pass judgement?

601 See 524 , and a number of posts on previous threads. If we start thinking to much alike, I may have to shoot myslf.

; )

593 he was willing to play 3b because he wanted to give himself the best chance to win the world series. is it that selfless? i have never really understood why this should be considered such a nice act.

Hmmm, folks, the Braves have just traded their SS, Renteria, to the Tigers.
Tigers now do not need a SS, but the Braves do. Alex in Atlanta?

599 So what are you saying? He should stay with the Yankees to make YOU happy? To make Yankz happy? As far as I know, he never said he was staying. Every time I heard him, he said he will examine his options at the time.

"The fact is the guy is a narcicist".
Well... I certanly don't want to question your professional judgement... so I'll assume it's true. And... So what? Should he be perfect like you and me? You mean you can actually find personality faults with him? Really? Gee... if only he could be more like you.

We are fans. We have a 'right' to criticize a players performance on the field. But when did we become the Karmic and moral judges of these athletes? People that we know absolutely nothing about, except when we see in the news.

When 1000 people are sticking mics in your face, asking questions that are impossible to answer, what should he say? He will be crucified regardless.

He said he loves NY and playing here. That may be true. Maybe it's not. Who cares? We don't know if his wife, or any one of 100 other events influenced his decision. He still may resign with the Yankees.

While 25 year old Miggy is pounding down RingDings, ARod lost weight and body fat over the winter, overcame his 2006 issues, and treated us to an outstanding, historic year. He owes you and me nothing.

The man spends his life under a microscope. Maybe WE OWE HIM a little respect. He has earned it.

I never booed Arod, FWIW.

593 So? Then they're all greedy POS.

605 Too expensive. Plus, I think they care very much about clubhouse culture down there.

603 I insist that you and William stop agreeing with me.

604 Well, it shows that the player cares as much about winning the WS as he does about money. If that's not selfless, it's still a preferable attitude for your stars to have.

606 "My family and I are 100% committed to staying in NY" or whatever he said. I don't blame him for saying it, I blame myself for falling for it.

605 don't see that one happening. the braves haven't opened up their wallets in a long time and they have some kid (escobar or something) that they plan to play at ss.

Read Pete's latest post. That sums it up pretty well. Arod is way more selfish than the average player.

604 609 yeah - while it might not be selfless - it did show he put winning instead of wanting to go down as the best ss ever, which he effectively gave up when he moved

612 hmm - i'm sure a pretty popular sentiment around the league - i wonder if this is some teams' chance to stick it to arod and boras a little bit

608 You stop agreeing with me!

611 yes, yunel escobar and he did well here when rent-a-wreck was on the DL...

612 yeah, pete's got some good stuff up right now...

611 yes, yunel escobar and he did well here when rent-a-wreck was on the DL...

612 yeah, pete's got some good stuff up right now...

doh! sorry bout that. i'm like the anti-134 post!

Hey, Jaret Wright is a free agent!

619 if you go throught that list enough you can assemble quite a collection of no-talent

606 He showed the New York Yankees organization no respect. He showed major league baseball and the world series no respect. He showed his own teammate and supposed friend Robinson Cano no respect.

He's gone out of his way for four years to make this team a circus. What respect do we owe him?

605 Not enough payroll.

606 Let's remember that his ridiculous comments invite those microphones. And yes I do get to pass judgement. Its the United States, where money, and only money, matters, and when you have it, you open yourself up for whatever we feel like saying. I don't want to argue with you as I enjoy most of your posts, but to say that "we" who make it possible for him to make 25 mil per season should not pass judgment, is just silly. He should thank us. He could be earning a lot less.

I agree about the Toronto thing. I actually dont care if he and his wife are swingers, or if he cheats on her while she's tied up. What I do care about is that he screwed us, screwed the Red Sox, screwed tradition by announcing when he did, and screwed us by being no better than David Eckstein when the shit was on the line. To who much is given, much is expected. Is that wrong?

623 He needs that money to take care of his family!

Never mind that the Yankees were ready to give him 180 million dollars.

Bob DuPuy's statement on behalf of MLB:

"We were very disappointed that Scott Boras would try to upstage our premier baseball event of the season with his announcement. There was no reason to make an announcement last night other than to try to put his selfish interests and that of one individual player above the overall good of the game.

Last night and today belong to the Boston Red Sox, who should be celebrated for their achievement, and to the Colorado Rockies, who made such an unbelievable run to the World Series."

=================

What he said ...

It might be a small consolation in early June when the Yankees are being shut down by Joe Southpaw, but it does feel somewhat liberating to read all the criticism about Arod (justified or not) and not feel the need to defend him. There were times where I almost felt bad for the man, which is a pretty perverted form of reality. At least now, we can all go back to rooting for the Yankees to win and not caring who contributed the victory. As the Captain would say, "We, we, we, WE!"

Hmmm...if 2007's slogan was Ha!, I propose that 2008's theme be We!

626 I'm on board.

615 You agreed with me FIRST!

621 Boras released the announcement, not ARod. Boras devised the strategy, not ARod. If you are for free agency, then this shit is part of the game. And unless you have personally spoken to Cano, I suggest you don't speak for or about him.

629 Boras can't do anything without Arod approving it. And Cano did indeed say that Arod hadn't told him personally.

Part of the game? Yeah, MLB releases statements every time someone files for free agency.

629 Boras works for Arod. The decision to make the announcement is something they are nearly required by law to discuss. Boras cannot and does not take such actions on his own, if he did, he wouldn't have very many clients, and could be dis-barred.

So ARod told Boras when to release the statement? Well... I wasn't there, so maybe, maybe not. Would big stein have pulled this type of shit. Absolutely. Would we all here have applauded him if he did? Absolutely.

630 And he said Arod is just like Rivera and Posada. "They are all free-agents," Umm, no, Arod was under contract. He chose free agency, it wasn't somehow thrust upon him. It would upset me more if 29 of the 32 GM's couldn't gather enough brain cells to finish a Highlights "what doesn't belong" puzzle. One of them will surely overpay yet again, putting the team in a bad poision two years from now. Boras isn't a genius, baseball people are morons.

However, on the Michael Kaye show, Boras said HE was wrong... for what happened. I guess it we weren't in the room, we can't know for sure.

But if dissing ARod makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

632 Arod knew about the statement. Are you telling me Boras did it without asking him?!?!

Do you think everyone's a saint, or just people in Yankee uniforms?

I heard Boras on the radio before and, much as I hate to admit it, he made some sense. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Yankees have to try to sign Rodriguez - that if they don't, they're really cutting off their nose etc.

As the Yankees reminded us so clearly in l'affaire Torre, this is a business. Put aside the anger, the outrage, the woulda, coulda, shoulda. The Yankees have no proprietary claim on Rodriguez; he had the right to declare free agency, just as Posada and Rivera do, and he exercised it.

Consider this:

1. The Yankees desperately need a third baseman.
2. The Yankees desperately need a legitimate righty power threat, and a cleanup hitter.
3. Alex Rodriguez is a free agent.

Strip it down to those basics, and it's utterly foolish for the Yankees not to pursue him. Swallow your pride, boys; business is business.

629 Scott Boras refused to allow Alex Rodriguez to listen to the Yankees offer? Scott Boras forced Alex Rodriguez to release a statement in the middle of the World Series?

And again, this is not part of the game. Its so not part of the game that Bob DuPuy released a scathing statement.

And Cano said it for himself.

from Heyman:
"Responding to the revelation, Rodriguez's agent, Scott Boras, confirmed he sent word of the opt-out decision in writing Sunday to the Yankees and expected the club to receive it by Monday. Boras also left phone and text messages with the same information for Yankees general manager Brian Cashman."

However, not very conclusive one way or the other. Certainly, Cashman should have been told as soon as it happened.

Boras sent the letter. WHO exactly told the press?

636 Sure, it's his right. But his pack of lies is total bullshit. If he wanted to stay with the Yankees, he would have used at least 1 of the 10 days to negotiate.

638 Again: Is your argument that Boras did that without Alex knowing? Really?

There has been a LOT of unintentional repetition today (i.e. 630, 631, and 637). It's kind of cool.

634 Dude! You are losing your mind. You believe that Boras isn't trying to place blame with himself to detract from Arod? If you believe that, you've lost it.

He is required to discuss these decisions with Arod, it's that simple. He did, they did, and the decision was made. You can defend his play, I respect that. But to think a decision affecting a 300 million decision was made in the dark, you're smoking too much meth.

627 Cano said ARod hadn't called him yet. So what? This makes ARod the Devil? So what!

633 The situation is more comparable than you suggest. Assuming that the Yankees offer arbitration to Posada and Rivera, they will have the choice to accept or be free agents. It's not merely thrust upon them unless the team doesn't want them anymore.

Rodriguez was under contract - a contract that gave him the right to declare free agency. He did. Rivera's contract and Posada's contract gave them the same right.

639 So what? That's all beside the point. Those three facts are all that's really relevant.

640 Anyone who thinks that doesn't understand Boras' legal responsibilities as an attorney, doesn't understand the agent/player relationship, league rules, and isn't worth listening to on any subject.

It doesn't matter what I believe or not.
I don't stand in judgement of the TYPE of PEOPLE these ballplayers are, based on contract gamesmanship.

Why do you need to pass such harsh judgement?

645 Again, I don't blame Arod for trying to get more money. The Yankees were ready to give it to him.

I blame him for insulting our intelligence with things like "He was worried about the state of the team" and "He really wanted to stay a Yankee."

644 Ok then. So we agree that Boras statements were at the very least, the absolute definition of specious.

643 Well, frankly, its another sign of just how little A-Rod thinks of his friends.

But, according to you, Scott Boras FORCED Alex Rodriguez to ignore the Yankees. He FORCED him to upstage the Series. Did he force him to blow off Cano?

636 I don't get it.
If A-Rod has any intention of staying with the Yankees, then obviously he should have attempted to work out terms while the Rangers would have been on the hook for millions. They could have asked the Yanks to split the Texas money, for instance, paying Alex $12M more than he could get from another team.
He didn't do that. If the Yankees were to re-sign him, they would be paying him and also Texas. That makes no sense at all, Boras knows it, A-Rod knows it.
Therefore, A-Rod has no intention of signing up with the Yankees again. Therefore, there is no reason for Cashman to make a bid of any kind.

647 It's harsh judgment to agree with MLB's statement? It's harsh to wish that if, like he asserts, he wanted to be a Yankee, he would have used at least 1 of his 10 days to decide if the team was in a good state or not?

648 Sure, it's all hot air. The Yankees did the same thing with the Torre contract (I believe), and I'll still root for them anyway.

You can't take bullshit too seriously, especially not when it's said as part of a negotiation. He wants to keep his options open, and I can't blame him for that.

647 Because I'm a Yankee fan and I'm angry. Because I respect the game, and I'm angry. Because I respect the Red Sox, and I'm angry. Because I understand the agent/player relationship and know that it was contrived to elicit this type of reaction, and I'm angry. Because the man is a bad human being, and I'm angry.

626 Every once in a while, they show something interesting on that channel. But if we can work in Jean-Luc Godard's "Alphaville" or better yet, François Truffaut's "The 400 Blows" for this new campaign of yours, I'm down for whatevah... >;)

As for anything relevant to the conversation, I'm saving my fingertips until every and all "facts" are on the table for scrutiny. However if you want an emotional response, I'll be glad to give it serious consideration... (um, don't look yet, I'll let you know)

653 I was pissed at both of them. And if Arod had said that and stayed, I'd root for him. But he said it and left, so I will boo away.

651 Well, no, they wouldn't be paying Texas, they just wouldn't be getting a subsidy anymore.

I have no idea what Rodriguez's intentions are. I'm only talking about what the Yankees should do, and what they should do is put all that nonsense aside. The Texas subsidy is gone. For the last few years they've had a superstar third baseman at bargain basement prices, and now they don't. In fact, they don't have any third baseman, and they don't have a cleanup hitter.

And Alex Rodriguez is a free agent. If he had been playing in Boston the last 4 years and did the same thing, would you want the Yankees to pursue him?

Also, OYF, I think it's a little hypocritical of you to jump on people for "judging" Arod, when you (and others here, myself included) were far, far more "judgmental" of the FO after the Torre debacle. "DARY" ring a bell?

656 What is almost never mentioed is that the fans booed for more than just his performance, fans are smart and they pick up on what kind of person a player is, and that makes it easier to boo. I give the fans credit for being ahead of the curve.

657 "Well, no, they wouldn't be paying Texas, they just wouldn't be getting a subsidy anymore."

Uh. Explain the difference.

"I have no idea what Rodriguez's intentions are."

I just gave an argument that he has no intention of re-signing with the Yankees. What's your response to that argument?

"If he had been playing in Boston the last 4 years and did the same thing, would you want the Yankees to pursue him?"

Of course. Unless there were good evidence that he had no intention of signing with the Yankees.

654 Respect the game? This is about contracts, not baseball.

661 Exactly! And letting the Sox enjoy this for a few days affects his free agency how exactly? No class.

Miami Herald speculates about Miggy C (no, not that one): http://tinyurl.com/26nybu

He's not a FA until after 09. They make it sound like Melky, Phil, and a fringe pitcher would get it done.

659 I've brought that up for the better part of two years. I'm usually shot down.

Guys, as someone who has an agent (and is holding out for 10/350)...

In practice, agents do NOT consult with clients on every aspect or detail of the deal in real time. They have to know in general what you want, what you'll settle for, what's not good enough, etc. so that they can negotiate effectively instead of saying "I'll get back to you."

Similarly, in acting as a mouthpiece, Boras may have said "Look, Alex, since we agree that you will opt out, I'm going to make an announcement." A-Rod says sure, that seems like a good idea. But the timing and phrasing may have been all Boras.

We don't really know what happened, of course, but it's not totally out of the realm that A-Rod really is blameless in terms of releasing the news.

660 The Yankees aren't paying Texas anything because there's no money going from the Yankees to Texas. I thought that was pretty self-explanatory.

I don't need a response. What you've said may be reasonable, but it's also pure speculation. I repeat: I have no idea what his intentions are. Your interpretation of his intentions don't really shed any light.

I wouldn't care if it looked like he wanted to sign with the Yankees or not. I'd make him an offer he couldn't refuse.

665 Hmm, interesting. But for something of this magnitude? I just don't see it.

665 I don't believe that for one second. And if the agent is an attorney, he is required to take every offer to his client, whether he knows what he will accept or not.

667 Maybe, maybe not. The reason to have an agent is so that you don't have to deal with stuff, remember.

667 And you would be right. He wouldn't be around very long if he pulled stunts like that.

636 At the rumor contractual terms, I think it is foolish to pursue Arod. Presumably, by opting out, Boras is saying the Yankees trial balloon wasn't even in the ball park. If so, I don't think the Yankees should break the bank for him. The numbers being discussed are pretty scary.

Also, I think there is a part of the Yankees that thinks the baggage of Arod has actually been a distraction. Maybe, just maybe, all the scrutiny he received in the playoffs does distract the team. Heck...maybe Cashman just wants to change the Karma. Whatever the reason, I think there is a part of the Yankees that wants Arod, but also doesn't want him (kind of like Torre). I know it's easier when things are defined in black and white, but usually it is the gray area where one finds the truth.

668 1. My point was about the way the agent/client relationship works and how that may apply to the announcement.

2. You know that isn't the way it works in real life. I want $100. My agent or agent agent/lawyer asks for $100. The counter is $50. My agent doesn't run right back and say "They offered $50." He tries to negotiate up first.

669 Thats not exactly right. You have an agent because his or her profession is dealing with "stuff," while yours is playing baseball. For the same reason you dont rewire your house on your own. And again, the agent is prohibited from making any important decisions on his or her own.

671 I agree. They definitely know they can't replace his offense with just one guy. But they also know that not committing 300 million to him makes filling the holes a lot easier.

As disappointed as I am, I'm a WE bit excited. I have faith in Cashman and his pack of stat nerds that apparently follows him around.

672 I agree. But a decisoin affecting his largest client, I doubt this wasn't discussed. Why is everyone so afraid to just say he did this for attention and to boost his visibility and not absolve Arod or responsibility? I don't get it. He's never been honest before, why would he be honest now?

663 Let's make that IPK, Melky and a fringe player and you have a deal.

668 In the entertainment industry, some agents regularly screen their clients' offers (screenplays, roles for particular projects, contracts) without the client knowing specifically what it's about. Many actors for example have passed up movie or TV roles that launched another actor's career, revitalized it or took it to a new level. Half the time, the actor or actress who turned it down didn't even know the offer was made.

666
"The Yankees aren't paying Texas anything because there's no money going from the Yankees to Texas. I thought that was pretty self-explanatory."
I still don't get it. How is it any different, economically speaking, from paying money to Texas?
Here are two circumstances:
(a) Texas is paying the Yankees money, and then they stop.
(b) Nobody is paying anybody money, and then the Yankees start paying money to Texas.
These are identical economically speaking. They may be different psychologically, but I think that's irrelevant.

"I don't need a response. What you've said may be reasonable, but it's also pure speculation."

Sorry, I still don't get it. I gave an argument. The conclusion of the argument is that he has no intention of signing with the Yankees. Maybe you think the premises of my argument are incorrect, or maybe you think the conclusion doesn't follow, but in neither case is what I said "pure speculation", so I simply don't understand your response (or your reason for thinking you don't have to give a response to my argument).

"I repeat: I have no idea what his intentions are. Your interpretation of his intentions don't really shed any light."

What interpretation?
I gave an argument. I'd love to hear your response, if you have one.

"I wouldn't care if it looked like he wanted to sign with the Yankees or not. I'd make him an offer he couldn't refuse."

That would be a bad idea. The result would be: he wouldn't sign anyway, and you (Cashman) would lose all credibility in future negotiations, having insisted publicly that you wouldn't negotiate, but then caving.

678 The whole "We don't negotiate with terrorists" thing, on a much less important scale, of course.

671 Also, I am going to give Cashman the benefit of the doubt and assume he has anticipated this scenario and devised a few fall back scenarios. It's one thing to save $300mn and another to intelligently utilize that largess. If Cashman can execute a prudent fallback, then maybe, just maybe, the Yankees will be better off? Sure, maybe not today, or maybe not tomorrow, but soon and for the rest of your life ;)

Then again, maybe Cashman will spend a billion dollars on Andruw Jones, in which case the only winners will be the proprietors of strip clubs across Manhattan.

672 That's about right, even when it's millions. Naturally, you trust your agent to look out for your best interests as you had previously discussed and as he/she is obligated (I believe by law and) the nature of your relationship; it's called fiduciary responsibility.

677 Agreed. I just don't see a decision this public was made that way.

679 So, by Arod opting out, does that mean the terrorists have won?

By the way, I think some of the criticism of Arod has been unfair, but I don't care in the least to defend him...ahhhh!

683 No, it's the opposite, it's like the Sudan kicking Bin Laden out. We have cut a tumor from the body that is the Yankees.

659 664 I think you are giving Yankee fans way too much credit. As a Yankee fan, I was annoyed that they were booing ARod throughout 2006 and then jumped on the bandwagon in 2007. I think it will be nice when he is not the story all the time. Granted, his timing is pretty awful, but people are getting all bent out of shape over him opting out. People are taking this way too personally. If you are him and you don't want to play in NY, it makes you look like you can't handle it, so you have to say the right things cause they will crucify you for the truth. I think he should have just stayed quiet until 10 days after the WS and said he was opting out.

666 "Aww, t' Hell with it!" >;)

678 Frankly, I have no idea what you're talking about. You present "an argument" deducing Rodriguez's intentions, as if we can have a logical debate that will determine it. It's not worth refuting, because of course it's all pure speculation; it can't be anything else. Whatever "argument" might make sense to you, it has nothing to do with what he's actually thinking, and no response I could make would have any more bearing on it.

You're paying someone $500 a week. I agree to pick up $100 of it. The person quits. Are you them paying me $100/week? It makes no sense at all.

685 And everything has been going swimmingly for the Sudan since then. ;-)

No, no. Cashman negotiating would mean the terrorists have won. They'd have us by the balls from now on because they know we'd eventually give in no matter what we said.

688 I'll take the $100 if you don't want it...

686 Agreed, about the ten day announcement. However, he should be crucified, because well, he can't handle it. Which is fine, but when people leave jobs in our world because they want a life or more balance, or the stress is killing them, they say so. Arod however is a pussy, but wants to be percieved as Jeter is, and that aint never going to happen. You can put a dress on a pig, but its still a pig. Some rise in big moments and some whither. Arod has and will always whither, and with the Dodgers or Giants, it wont matter, because the fans dont care nearly as much as we do, and will be happy with cheering his HR's and wont care how far the team goes.

692 And for the record I live in LA now. And at any game of 50,000 fans, you wouldnt be able to find more than 10% of them that could even name the starting rotation last year.

689 Well, they did recently agree to stop the siege on Darfur, so they're looking in the right direction. Not saying that means a lot, time will tell...

Hang on, guys. This isn't negotiating with terrorists. No one's life is at stake, and there really aren't any great questions of principle here. This is just a baseball contract, and hardball negotiation.

And what happens next time, if the Yankees say the same thing? Either they'll stick to it or they won't, depending on what suits their best interests. It clearly suited their interests to say that all through the season; I'm not sure that it's in their best interest to stick to it.

691 Well played, sir.

692 I hope Arod goes to S.F....that would put him as far away on the radar as possible. It would also be a perfect landing spot for Arod. If they could love Bonds, I am sure Arod will be adored.

688 I thought that reasoned debate worked like this:
I give an argument, with some premises and a conclusion. If you think it's wrong, you're supposed to say whether the premises are wrong or the conclusion doesn't follow.

You apparently have a different idea of how it works: I give an argument, and your reply is that it's pure speculation. Our ideas of how this works are so different that I think there's no point in continuing.

As for the purely economic point:
it's not complicated or weird at all. The Yankees giving up a Texas subsidy is exactly the same, economically, as the Yankees paying cash to Texas. If A-Rod were to re-sign with the Yankees, the result would be that they have given up a subsidy, which is exactly the same as the result that they just write a check and give it to the Rangers. There's no difference at all in the finance. If you think there's a difference, I'd like to hear what it is.

695 See 679. I made a comparison and was sure everyone knew I was using extreme hyperbole for effect. We're just kidding.

695 They have no choice now. Fans would be firing in rockets at him from Macombs Bridge if they signed him now.

697 It would also pretty much guarantee he never wins a ring.

Also, I love that MLBTraderumors uses Pete as a source. I bet Pete himself would admit he pulls half his stuff out his ass.

699 Yes...I am pretty sure all talk of terrorists was done in jest.

648 So... ARod (and I) are the ONLY ones worried about the state of the team? And this is not an issue for someone with MANY choices, looking to make an 8 year commitment? What do you want him to say? His wife hates the Yankees? Boras says he can get more money? He hurts when he does well and is still gets booed?

What should he say? When everything he says lands him on the cover of a magazine? Truth, lie or anything in between, the press makes a story out of everything he says and does.

I just don't know what you expect him to say.

Yankz:
The 'negotiating with terrorists' bit is the cost. If there were a big potential benefit to doing it, I could see it -- after all, Cashman's reputation among agents has some, but not enormous value.
But I can't see the benefit. Opting out without negotiating has a large deadweight loss, since whatever the Yankees are willing to pay, Boras could have got that plus the Rangers' premium (or a share of it) by negotiating an extension. Boras knows this, the Yankees know he knows it, etc. So opting out makes sense only if A-Rod is going to sign somewhere else. So, there's no benefit for Cashman in getting back into the game.

The exception is if it suddenly looks like Boras realizes that he (and A-Rod) have made a huge miscalculation. Then it could be worth jumping back in.

703 I have decided to exercise my opt clause. I enjoyed my time in New York but my family and I felt this was our best move.

WWDJD? Keep it simple, stupid. Fans don't want controversy.

Also, no response to 658 , I see.

650 WHO RELEASED THE ANNOUNCEMENT TO THE PRESS? ARod was morally obligated to tell the Yankees as soon as he knew. How did it get public?

Boras and ARod (I would guess) agree on marketing strategy. However, my guess is ARod tends more to play baseball and Boras tends to play more hardball (HA!).

Its just a guess. I wasn't there. Were you?
I'm goinf to drop out if this debate now with these parting words.

You guys need to watch more 'Kung Fu'. (HA!)

704 Yeah- did we disagree somewhere?

705 More importantly, do you actually think that the "State of the Yankees" was the reason Arod opted out? Your post, to me, implies that you do. If that's why, then couldn't he have waited, I don't know, 24 hours? He left literally the second he could!

703 Put me in the camp of not really caring what reason he gives. My main concern is that the Yankees enter 2008 with a commitment to a youthful pitching staff and the necessary payroll flexibility to compete for the next 10 years. While I realize you have to rob Peter to pay Paul when signing long-term deals with superstars, I don't think Arod warrants a $300mn/10 year deal. If you could guarantee he'd put up a 170 OPS+ in every season, well, maybe I would, but it is entirely possible that he wont reach the number again. Who knows, Arod of the future may be more of a 130-140 OPS+ guy. If that's the case, we'll all be happy he opted out. So much remains to be seen.

Where I do agree with you 100% is I hold absolutely no ill will toward Arod. Will I still root for him as I did Clemens when he left? No. Will I root against him though? Absolutely not (unless he signs with a major competitor).

Wow. OldYanksFan is one angry dude.

707 No. But nobody else is around anymore, so I figured I'd see if you were willing to disagree with me.

We're just too damned badass, that's our problem. Let's head over to Dodger Thoughts and whip their intellectual butts now.

698 That contract is gone. Texas has the money no matter what happens, and it doesn't cost the Yankees a cent. That's why I don't consider it a payment, because it doesn't cost the Yankees anything. That transaction is over, finished, done.

Now the question is whether the Yankees want to pay Rodriguez or not. If they do so, they're not "paying Texas" any more than if they don't sign him. The Texas deal is completed before any Rodriguez contract exists. They're separate. They have nothing to do with each other.

I'm not going to debate you over someone else's thoughts. It's not open to debate, because we don't have enough information, and thoughts can't be proven by "reasoned argument." I'm perfectly open to "reasoned argument" on a subject that's open to it. But however reasonable your argument may seem, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT HE'S THINKING and you can't demonstrate it through argumentation.

And now I'm so done with this.

710 Done, but "damned badass" won't fly. And I'm not so sure about "butts" either.

Oh, william and nemecizer are still here. Okay.

Torre was seriously disrespected!!!!

Nah. My heart's not in that one anymore.

706 Boras was on the phone with ESPN at one point yesterday, so I am sure he had a hand it. Also, if you remember, Boras tried a ploy back in 2000. I think we can all recall Arod and Boras sitting right behind the plate during game 5 of the 2000 World Series, leading to the inevitable discussion during the game as to whether he was going to sign with the Mets. You can agree or disagree as to the merits of the tactic, but I think it is pretty clear it was an orchestrated move. Whether Boras consulted Arod or not, Alex has to take full responsibility because Boras is acting on his behalf.

713 The Dodger fans are dissing on Gammons. I can't really get angry with anything they're saying.

713 Who is Joe Torre?

711
That contract is gone. Texas has the money no matter what happens, and it doesn't cost the Yankees a cent. That's why I don't consider it a payment, because it doesn't cost the Yankees anything. That transaction is over, finished, done.

Now that A-Rod has opted out, it's done. Had he not, it wouldn't have been. That's the deadweight loss, if A-Rod were to re-sign with the Yankees. That's the money lost, but only if he re-signs.

As to the other stuff, right, I got that the first time. I'm just disappointed that you wouldn't say what was wrong with the premises or the reasoning.

714 I remember. Im actually not sure why Im so worked up. It must be the classlessness of the whole thing, because I was actually hoping he would opt-out.

I know 715 , I'm down with what the Dodger Thinkers are saying, too.
And I'm pretty well aware 712 that I don't exactly have the knack for trash talk, thank you very much.

719 No! I meant it won't fly at Dodger Thoughts!

705 I agree about the controversy (and I'm thinking about a similar opt-out on the home front myself), but we're working against the strong tendency for corporations and all manner of financial folk to exploit market trends here, namely huge media markets and the dispensers and manipulators of "information" who love them...

658 At the moment, I see two parties on the flip side of the same coin. Neither one of them handled what may actually have been necessary in the long run with much grace and tact, and fans like us will react given what little we actually know. That's not to excuse the more feral comments we've made and in retrospect, I'm willing to give the entire matter more consideration, so I'm waiting until everything is on the table before I draw any serious conclusion. Meanwhile, devil's advocate, like shaving, can be fun! 8)p

720 Oh, right, the Dodger Thoughts rules. Polite society.

Well, anyway, if you could see me... I don't look all that much like Allen Iverson. Surprise!

722 Haha, I could have guessed.

OK, I feel like I have thoroughly stated my views on this whole situation. I will now focus on what's next for Cashman and Girardi. In other words, I'm not here to talk about the past.

Oh my god, I honestly felt sleepy reading that blog that Bob linked to.

723 I'll bite, Mark. Do you see Nujo having a big role in choosing his new coaches and if so, who do ya like?

Who's Mark?
Ohhhh. McGwire.

JG will have entire control over picking the new staff, I think.

726 I think he knows the Yankees could have easily went with Mattingly, and will keep whatever coaches want to stay, including Long. Although I don't know which route I would go. I would want a bench coach that would have spoken up during the "bug" game. If Joe "regrets" it, as he claims, I want the guy who leaves the field with no regrets, I don't want a yes man. Well I don't know If I actually believe he regrets it. I couldn't have been the only one screaming at the time to at least make an argument to stop the game or investigate the situation. As far as I'm concerned, I don't want any manager or coach that sat through that and said nothing, and that includes Mattingly. I don't believe this is hindsihght, as I thought it at the time, and I also don't believe it was a judgment call, it was obvious. It may not have changed anything, but it was obvious to me that to just flop your fat ass on the bench and do nothing hurt the team's chances. Whether he saw the game in Detroit that was stopped for birds is irrelevant, management made the argument there because it was right, not because someone else had already done it.

Oh, yeah, the bugs. Huh.

Well, Guidry and Bowa are leaving. I'd think Girardi would keep Long and Pena, for some continuity, and maybe Pena gets promoted. But what do I know?

727 I have to agree with you; if you're gonna make a change of this nature, don't do it half-assed. I was very upset with the whole Torre fiasco; not so much with Torre leaving as much as the way it was handled (like performing open-heart surgery with an apple-corer or a giant potato-peeler), but ultimately I think most of us wanted to see Torre move on from the bench sooner than later.

Nujo can't come in trying to push the same buttons (which is what Torre meant when he said whomever took his spot needs to 'be himself'), and he doesn't seem likely to do so. What will be interesting is how he reacts to the inevitable front-office meddling. Say George or Hank or whoever does lay off him for the first couple of years and Girardi delivers a WS within that time. How likely do you think that either one of them will want to insert themselves into the higher end of cause and effect of winning the championship, and how strong will Girardi's action (not to say his re-action) be to explain that as far as winning goes, George/FO are the facilitators and not the warriors? I'm guessing that if Nujo's the strong leader they said they want, they'll attempt to test his authority and not succeed. Will they leave him alone after that? George, no; Cash, yes, King of the Hill, n/a...

728 From what I've been reading, Peña wants to stay and the Yanks could do a lot worse than keeping him. Does Girardi consider Eiland or Gil Patterson for PC?

680 I hate to keep bringing this up, but the last time we said this, we signed Kei Igawa.

731 did Kei steal your girl?

I am so excited! We've got a new manager and he is damned smart and knows baseball. Although I'm kind of nervous that Girardi will turn us down. But that can't be. He so obviously loves the Yanks.

I can't wait to meet his staff and get a feel for the Yankees of the 21st century. Or atleast for the next couple of years!

Pete says the Dodgers will be announcing Torre as their new manager.

733 "Although I'm kind of nervous that Girardi will turn us down."

Helluva way to start out the new era, that's for sure. Joe interviews (very well at that) and forces the team to choose him over a team legend who's feelings are now very hurt and might just pull a Yogi for a while, then after A-Rod bolts the very second he can, Joe turns them down? That would be ten kinds of hilarious, half of which would have anyone burning in hell if they laughed, but with the way things have been going for Team Hankenstein, I wouldn't be surprised...

love your "omgomg-omg!" happy though >;)

Props to the Redsox and their fans. They were the best team in baseball this season. As to $-Rod. F--- Him. He deserved the #13 on his back. I never got behind people who talked trash about him while he was in Pinstripes but now that he's gone, he's dead to us. I hope Boras sticks him with some dead end team while we rebuild and win #27, 28,29 and 30 without his sorry ass.

So, if Torre really turns out to be the Dodger manager, what should I expect?

734 Where's Weeping with all them hahaha's when you need them?

PeteAbe: (via LoHud) Dodgers have announced that former Yankees skipper Joe Torre will be taking the reigns of the former Brooklyn Dodgers, making this a home-away-from-homecoming of sorts...

Weeping: HA HA HA HA HA AHA HA HA HAHA HA! That's a good one, Pete! Joe managing the Dodgers!

(cricket, cricket...)

Weeping: Tell me that was a joke...

Jon Weisman: Welcome to Hell, kid...

>;) (shoutout to S. Adams and Dilbert)

717 No. Signing Rodriguez doesn't mean that they lose the money. It's just signing a free agent third baseman, and Texas has nothing at all to do with it. It certainly doesn't become a payment to Texas, because Texas's finances are entirely unaffected by it; they already have the money, no matter what the Yankees do. In terms of the money flow, signing Rodriguez is exactly the same as signing Mike Lowell.

I see no reason to argue your premises or conclusions. It's not arguable.

Mattingly in a Dodger uniform? Pardon me while my ten-year old self and current self get together to puke....

739 ummm, negotiating with ARod didn't and won't happen in a vacuum.

Somewhere, Scott Proctor's right arm is silently saying a prayer...

737 A large shipment of green tea, some leisurely walks to the mound after the sixth inning and a lot of frowning. Other than that, you're getting a very knowing and media-savvy guy that will make the players love him and give their left/right arms for him. They'll play hard and smart for him as long as he trusts them. I think the laid-back style he's developed here that so many people here seem to find distasteful will fit right in with SoCal, so if it happens, be grateful. All-in-all, I think LaSorda would approve >;)

737 Expect Scott Proctor's arm to separate at the shoulder and fly through the backstop on July 15th.

737 Class and Proctor.

I can't believe how it worked out. Proctor is probably crying up a river right now.

So if Torre does sign with the Dodgers and brings Mattingly there and possibly Long, should we turn on him the way some of you turned on the owners, since he is insulting us as Yankee fans by not only going to the Dodgers but stealing our coaches and possibly players?

741 When Tom Hicks was involved, it did...

717 Or to put it another way: I have no idea what's wrong with the premises or the reasoning. I have no idea what's right with them either. There's an infinity of things he could be thinking: rational, irrational, partly rational, logical, flawed, cool, emotional. And there are also an infinity of factors that we know nothing about.

We only have access to a tiny visible portion of what's going on outside his head. Any conclusions we draw about what's going on inside from such flimsy and incomplete evidence are, well, speculation rather than reasoned argument.

Its funny, I don't really see how Grady Little is particularly that different from Joe Torre. Same tendencies.

746 Blasphemer! >;)

747 got me there

741 It's a whole new business decision now. It doesn't really matter what might have been. The old contract really has no relevance, unless they just want to be pissed off about it.

746 I don't see how it's insulting for him to take another job.

749
Exactly what I said in the DT thread.

I am just wondering if I should fear that I am about to lose a chunk of our young players.

744 LOL, I just had the image in my head of Torre sitting in a large barco lounger with a cat in his lap and cackling "he will not escape me this time, muwahahahahahaha!!!!!"

744 Do you think it will spiral through the air like a well-thrown football or circle the warning track before heading for the behind-home seats? Or maybe it will do one of those eephus-arcs...

very interesting news about torre and the dodgers. he grew up a dodger fan so it might be a nice fit. i'm a little upset because i wanted to hear how he'd manage being a commentator again after all this time. but i'm glad he'll have a job so he can be happy, and we'll have a better manager. as long as mo and jorge don't follow him, i think it's a good deal all around.

755 I'm telling you, this is getting to be more and more like The Godfather Saga by the day...

757 Do the Dodgers need them as much as the Yankees do? They have a good young backstop of their own, but I'm not sure about the closing situation... I don't see Jorge there unless he wants to follow Girardi's career arc. As for Mo, I think he really wants to open the new stadium, but if he's not offered at least two years, he'll bolt andTorre would certainly find room for him (SP, now's yer chance! Through here, c'mon c'mon!...)

759 no they definitely don't need posada. but they could use mo.

Oh no, now I have nightmares of a MoPo battery in LA. That would be awful.

754 Do you mean by attrition, or do you mean vital appendages flying awkwardly away from their bodies after the All-Star break?

$-Rod to LA. Kinda sounds familiar. Gretzky, Beckham and $-rod found plenty of Cash and Hollywood trash. No rings for any of them, however. Kinda the purgatory he deserves.

relax tommyl, see 759 ,760

763 i'd be very surprised if arod followed torre anywhere.

763

Beckham has played part of one season and been hurt. A-Rod hasn't even signed with another team yet.

I'd wait a bit before trying to sell that trend piece if I were you.

763 That and the prospect of Torre batting him eighth during the first round?

763 He'd be perfectly happy in KC, just so long as they pay him.

Its funny, he just shook the impression that he was greedy, and now he's right back there. I would have to say he is quite greedy.

jebus, what a weird offseason already ... torre out with the yanks, in with Jogi, out with arod, now torre and mattingly in with the dodgers ... i'll have to go see at least one game next year and see that weird sight for myself (damn, donnie baseball in an LA Dodgers uni ... whodathunk???)

768 Oh. And to be honest, I don't think Joe wants anything to do with him. That leaves Anaheim and San Francisco or Chicago. He wont go anywhere where fans actually give a shit.

We got Saito and Broxton. Can't see Mariano coming to the Dodgers.

Maybe Mattingly will eventually get to coach his son.

Ned Coletti, like Torre, has a fondness for Proven Veterans: Nomar, Luis Gonzalez, Jeff Kent and so on. Maybe he'll sign Posada for Leadership and Been There, and trade Russell Martin to the Yankees.

769 I am in LA. I will go for sure.

768 How did he ever shake that impression if Boras was still his agent? Still, I think greed is besides the point. Hard to find a man that makes the Yankees ownership and FO into the sympathetic party, but Boras sure knows how to flip'em, doesn't he?

770 Detroit has been rumored. That would actually be a good fit.

770 i think chicago is out ... as much as boras would like them to be in ... there's still no timetable for new ownership to take over ... and they're probably going to have to be on best behavior at first ... remember that frank mccourt wanted to sign vladdy when he was buying the dodgers ... and good ol' seligula made sure frankie knew that wasn't going to fly

775 Right! But he forgets the most important aspect of his job: To advise his client as to all aspects of the decision. He cares only for money, making him a very good negotiator but a horrible counselor.

775 Right! But he forgets the most important aspect of his job: To advise his client as to all aspects of the decision. He cares only for money, making him a very good negotiator but a horrible counselor.

771 That's what I couldn't remember. Thanks, you're right.

772 Just what I was thinking. Oh well, g'nite everyone! Zzzzz...

i think Detroit, LA (maybe, who knows what the Torre announcement does, I doubt A-Ras [as goldman is calling them] care if the money is right), Anaheim, SF (maybe? that team isn't going to win anything anytime soon though) and???

i doubt the cubs, because of the ownership issues, i doubt the red sox because i think they'll work something agreeable out with lowell and save themselves the whole a-ras pain in the ass ...

dark horses?

I agree. Which is why the Posada/Pettitte/Mo situation being in the air as part of his excuse is horse shit. Wherever he goes, the team will be worse than the 2008 Yankees. Write that down!

781 There are no dark horses. 2000 Honda Accord, $5000 OBO. That's the strategy, $350,000,000 for ten years or best offer, that's where he ends up. He'd play in Japan if they would pay him $35,000,000 per year.

To top it off, if any of our FAs sign with LA, they don't even have a 1st round pick and pick last in the 2nd round, some compensation!

"But he forgets the most important aspect of his job: To advise his client as to all aspects of the decision. He cares only for money, making him a very good negotiator but a horrible counselor. "

I can sort-of agree with you on this one, Van. How about that!

"they don't even have a 1st round pick"

I THINK that in this case the Yanks get a sandwich pick. Anyone else know for sure?

785 YES! Well, I see it all the time. Lawyers advising clients with the attorney's interest first. The job is to do what is best for the client, advise and counsel the client, not simply to get the best fiduciary result.

Arod clearly handles pressure poorly, so perhaps signing with LA is best for him. But if what he wants is a big stage and WS titles, then anything west of the Mississippi is a bad idea.

786 I believe that is the case. Either way, no one is signing with the Dodgers. Mo, Po, Pettitte? Come on. I don't blame Donnie for going, but if either Mo or Po does, they'd be dead to me.

wow, torre and proctor reunited. the return of EDSP! somewhere, tanyon sturtze is jealous. nomaas will have a field day with this one...

769 weird day, indeed. strange things are afoot at the Circle-K...

"But if what he wants is a big stage and WS titles"

Isn't it kind of unclear WHAT he wants? I mean, he may get more $ by opting out. But unless he goes to the Sox, who of all his options seems like good WS bets?

We may never know for sure. I think he must have wanted to get out of NY. Whether it was the fans, or his teammates, or the tabloids, all three, whatever, he'd had it.

790 It was all about sharing. Only child and all. He wants attention and money, not in that order. Money first, and love second. He's a child.

Holy God, A-Rod opts out and the trolls trundle out into the sunlight.

790 I used to say he would never get a better deal than with the Yankees, but with Ichiro's deal and Zito, some moron might give him $30,000,000 per year. No matter who it is they will be making a big mistake. The way I look at it, considering the sideshow and post-season impotence, the Yankees paid him about what he's worth: $12,000,000-$17,000,000 per season. There is more to baseball and winning titles that regular season dominance, a lot more. The issue is that when the Yankees paid him, they paid him to perform and win titles. If the Dodgers or Angels pay him $30,000,000, the fans will be perfectly happy if they miss the playoffs altogether so long as he puts up the numbers. He wants the money and attention, without being pressured to complete the goal.

788 I love Donnie Baseball, and I think he would have been a fine manager (or rather I think experience is overvalued for manageral candidates--his goodness or badness at the job would have been, in my opinion, independent of his experience). But, he is a baseball guy, and he knows how the baseball business works. It would have been rather unusual for a youngish former player with almost no coaching experience, and no managerial experience at any level, to step into a high profile coaching job.

If he has the chance to coach in Dodgerland, he should take it in a heartbeat, if only to fulfill his (supposed) dream of one day managing the Yankees. In three or four or five years, after Girardi gets canned or burns out, Mattingly will be an ideal candidate.

Hey! Look at the bright side fellas and ladies. The Lakers' management has been so awful the past five seasons, they are about to lose the best player in the game. A pain maybe, but a big time performer in November, and a lights out performer in June. We could have Little Jimmy Buss and Mitch Chipmunk running our club.

790 He might get 30/year elsewhere, but for how many years? I'm not what team will give him seven or eight years at that price. Unless ARod is extremely confident in his conditioning, or unless he really doesn't care about playing into his forties, he must (I presume) be looking for a long-term deal now. The risk is too high, I would think, for him to sign a four or five year contract at age 32, and hope for the best at 38.

I guess the other way he could go wuld be to look for the same total amount (say 250 million) spread over another very long contract--like 10 years.

I don't know. The Yankees have the most resources, a new stadium on the way, lots of money coming off the books in the coming years, and they had the Texas subsidy. I'm just not sure other teams can compete with what the Yankees could/would put on the table.

This leads me to conclude that 1] he thought the Yankees were bluffing and expects them to enter the bidding, or 2] he really just wanted out of NY at any cost (figuring he'll make his dough no matter where he ends up).

782 I wish I was as optimistic. Losing A-Rod makes the Yanks about 5 wins worse, so that puts them at like, 89 wins. Plus, I'll be shocked if Posada is as good in 08 as he was in 07. So let's say that's 2 wins, now they're at 87. The only Yankees in the lineup that I think project to be better in 08 are maybe Cano and Melky. But all in all, we could be looking at an 85 win team next year, if some significant upgrades aren't made.

As I said at the beginning of this thread...

Puke

796 Someone will pay him and then dump him later just like the Rangers did. The Yankees will not enter the bidding. If they do I'll ship Duracells to every fan on the third base line. Some moron will pay him, and it isn't out of the question that it will be Seattle. Inchiro, Guillen, Sexson, Beltre, Ibanez, Vidro, Rodriguez. Ummm, that's nice.

wow...what a thread!.....I can't believe I ate the whole thread.....WAY too tired now to post anything......I couldn't get hold of my dad, so you guys were the next placed I turned.....

ok, I'll post a little flamebait, since it fits my mood:

all of the folks who think they know ANYTHING about the "character" possessed by either Jeter or A-Rod should consider carefullly the fact that ALL of their "knowledge" is filtered through a select group of men, sportwriters: a select group of mostly bitter men who resent & envy the fame and physical prowess of athletes and wait for their boyhood heroes to screw up once so that they can bring them down.

it's a rare player, like Jeter, who seems to be bulletproof for life: and the price he pays seems to involve having never said a remotely interesting thing to a reporter in his ENTIRE FUCKING LIFE.

me, I loved watching Alex do everything (well, except pop flies, and certain post season at bats); same goes for Derek (exception: molassass-footed first step). I don't especially wanna hang out with either of them; I'm not sure either guy would have my back in a tough situation. nor do I care.

ok, that's my two cents worth on this Historic Moment in Yankee History [/emoticon for weary sarcasm here/]

800 for 800 sake...

797 I think you might be surprised by next year's team. How many wins does having Chamberlain, Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation add? More than five I would guess. We should also have a healthy Giambi and a possilbe outfield of Matsui, Abreu and Hunter/Jones. Pinch Hitters don't look bad either. Don't count them out just yet. We can live with an average 3B, and for that matter, we might not have to.

And for the record. Is Scott Boras nuts? Who the fuck at Yankee land used the words transition and patience when referring to the team on the field and not the managerial situation? And 10:30 at night? With ten days to go for the opt-out? Here is to hoping Boras gets rear ended getting on the 5 Freeway tomorrow.

799 What has Arod ever said that was interesting? Inapropriate, yes. Wrong, yes. Meant to purposfully incite the fans and media, yes.

Interesting, no. The man has never had an interesting thought, let alone made an interesting or insightful statement.

When you say Jeter never said anything interesting, what you mean is that Jeter never acted irresponsibly in dragging the clubhouse into the media. He never spoke badly of his skipper. He never spoke ill of those who pay his salary. He never spoke ill of the fans. He never reacted to silly ridiculous speculation from writers who make Abraham look like Walter Cronkite. He never stirred up controversy he knew the team would have to respond to. Yea, what a horrible and uninteresting person he is.

801 Dude the only part of that post that I will take issue with is the Giambi part. Now I am probably the biggest Giambi fan there is. When it seemed like every other baseball fan on earth wanted the Yankees to void his contract or ban him from baseball or whatever, I stuck up for him.

But seriously, what makes you think he will ever be healthy for a prolonged stretch again? expecting a 100% Jason Giambi is like expecting Carl Pavano to start 20 games next season.

803 Eternal optimism?

Pete Abe on ESPN....Go Pete go!

Crazy news about Torre, but Im happy for him. We'll find out everything we need to know about Arod through the Dodgers pursuit of him now that Joe is there. If they don't pursue him, knowing they have the money, my feelings about him will be confirmed.