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The Jorgie and Mo Show
2007-10-22 10:09
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

According to Jon Heyman at SI.com:

The Yankees are moving fast to try to lock up both Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera to new contracts, but the early word is that more progress is being made in Posada's case.

Baseball people see the Yankees offering bookend $40 million, three-year deals for each longtime star. Such offers would make them the highest-paid players at their respective positions...

...The idea that Posada and Rivera would leave the Yankees because Torre is gone is downright laughable...

...People close to the situation would be shocked if Posada went anywhere else. The Mets are in the market for a catcher, but even a Mets person said, "You honestly think the Yankees are letting him come here?'

In a word, no.

Okay, here's my question. Which one of these guys will be wearing pinstripes come 2008: Mariano, Jorgie, Andy Pettitte, Bobby Abreu and Alex Rodriguez?

Comments (178)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-22 10:16:19
1.   rbj
I hope it's 5 for 5. Mo & Jorgie are most likely.
2007-10-22 10:21:03
2.   Mattpat11
I think everyone but five is definite.
2007-10-22 10:21:09
3.   Sliced Bread
I am a Rockies fan now, and I hope all the players listed above will join my team.
2007-10-22 10:22:37
4.   ms october
Wasn't Posado the one saying all year that he was going to enjoy being a FA, yet it sounds (and certainly no complaint) that he is more likely than Mo to re-sign without becoming a FA?
Yeah, I hope it is 5 for 5 too, but I am falling for Mo's tactics even though I am well aware of the situation.
1 So how would you rank them 1-5 with 1 being most likely to come back?
2007-10-22 10:24:49
5.   rsmith51
I predict everybody comes back...

Most likely to leave in this order:
ARod
Abreu
Pettite
Posada
Rivera

2007-10-22 10:25:09
6.   Mattpat11
4

Pettitte
Abreu
Posada
Rivera
Rodriguez

2007-10-22 10:25:51
7.   glennrwordman
Stay: Posada & Abreu
Go: Pettitte & ARod
No Idea: Rivera (lean toward stay).
2007-10-22 10:25:59
8.   Yankee Fan In Boston
i'd like all five back as well (and our molina, too). i just hope that they get things somewhat settled soon, so that mr. rodriguez can see some commitment towards keeping the team together before his opt-out deadline. i'm starting to believe ca$hman's stance on not negotiating if they can't get hicks' money. it frightens me.

4 please do not remind mr. posada of his past statements.

2007-10-22 10:29:29
9.   yankz
5/5. They'll all be back.
2007-10-22 10:30:45
10.   RIYank
Is there a decent chance of picking up Abreu below his option price? I think Cashman might balk at the $16M, though frankly I doubt that there are better options out there.
2007-10-22 10:32:38
11.   RIYank
8 Yeah, I believe Cashman on that, too. The thing is, if he were to back down (that is, if A-Rod opts out and then Cashman bids anyway), Cash would never be able to make a threat again -- he would lose his credibility. Whereas if he follows through, his future threats become very credible indeed.
2007-10-22 10:34:55
12.   Zack
I think all will be back. Posada definitely, hes a Yankee and will, without a doubt, take that deal mentioned above. He'd be crazy not to! Abreu will be picked up, Pettitte will come back when Donnie is hired and Posada resigns. A-Rod will be back, I am so still over 90% confident of that.

To me, Mo is really the wild card because, personally, he's the least important resign. There is nobody else that can really fill in the other roles as well, but I think, sadly, that Mo could be replaced internally. Not AS well mind you, but hell, if Borowski can close 45 games, so can Melancon etc...

2007-10-22 10:36:49
13.   Yankee Fan In Boston
11 i agree with the tactic as well, but it still frightens me.

as i laid my head upon my pillow last night, i pondered a yankee team without these five players. unsettling.

2007-10-22 10:36:51
14.   ms october
8 You're right, sorry - forget it was mentioned.
Also agree with having Molina back - I thought I heard somewhere he would like to come back - I wonder if he has given up on the idea of starting somewhere?
I take it no one could give a rat's rear about the Viz and Villone?
Yanks certainly have what appears to be enough in-house bullpen options - I wonder if the fact that a couple of the rookie pitchers fared well their first start could mean they MIGHT be decent bullpen arms.
2007-10-22 10:38:59
15.   ms october
10 I think only if they buy him out and then try to re-sign him for less than $16 mil - but don't see it playing out like that.
2007-10-22 10:40:47
16.   NJYankee41
I would like to think they will all be back. I forget where I read it but IIRC Jorge's dad was saying all Jorge wanted was a 3 year deal in the range of $36 mil. If that's true, I see no reason it won't work out.

Since Pettitte's option was in good faith and he's healthy, it would look bad if he left.

Rivera was a bit insulted at not being extended, but it sounds like the Yanks are ready to "respect" him.

Abreu wants to stay and having him for only one year is a good deal.

I'm hoping A-Rod stays and I think he will. Nevertheless I won't feel relaxed until his contract gets extended.

3 Have you checked out High Altitude? :)

2007-10-22 10:41:28
17.   Mattpat11
14 The likes of DeSalvo walk way too many people to come out of the bullpen.
2007-10-22 10:43:36
18.   yankz
Girardi gets the first interview, not that that means anything: http://tinyurl.com/2yyhj9

Sadly, I think it's a two-horse race, with Pena just being included to fulfill the minority requirement.

2007-10-22 10:43:37
19.   Sliced Bread
The Mets will offer Posada and Rivera more than the reported Yanks deal.
I honestly will not be surprised if both move across town.
Yes, they're Yankees, but as Hank Steinbrother himself said "nothing lasts forever."
I'm not being cynical either.
Based on their statements in the papers, it sounds like Posada and Rivera are wondering what baseball life might be like elsewhere.
I can see Omar talking them into crossing the Triboro.

Abreu will be back. A-Rod's outta here like Vladimir and it will have nothing to do with Joe.

2007-10-22 10:44:25
20.   RIYank
15 What about as part of a longer deal? Buy him out and sign him for two years, for a total of $22M (+$2M buyout)?

I guess if it's take-it-or-leave it, I think they should and will pick up the option. Hm. How long, realistically, before Tabata might be MLB-ready?

2007-10-22 10:47:12
21.   yankz
Pete: "8. They may be Red Sox, but only a stubborn Yankees fan would not want Kevin Youkilis or Dustin Pedroia in pinstripes. Those guys are gamers."

What the deuce? Youk I could understand, because our 1B hit like relief pitchers, but Pedroia? Not only is he annoying in a really bad way, but he's not as good as Cano.

2007-10-22 10:47:45
22.   yankz
20 He just turned 19 and he just had surgery. I don't think he's anywhere near ready.
2007-10-22 10:48:56
23.   RIYank
21 Totally agree.
22 Right, but I meant: two years? Three?
2007-10-22 10:50:31
24.   ms october
18 I fear you may be right about the "tokenism" - but I hope not for many obvious reasons.
20 Yeah - I guess that's a possibility - Abreu is not in the plans for much longer, but 2 years might actually make sense so they don't rush Tabata.
Guess it also depends if they decide to pursue trades with Melky as part of the deal.
2007-10-22 10:51:13
25.   Jersey
20 Considering Tabata has never had an AB above Tampa, I would have to think he's at least two years away, maybe more.

Of course, in two years he'll still only be TWENTY. Crazy.

So all the talk has been about how Torre's departure would affect these guys, but I haven't heard anything about Jeter's influence. Jeter and Posada are really tight buddies, and you have to figure his continued presence is a pull for Jorge, Mo etc, just as Torre's absence might be a push. I don't want to overestimate Jeter's pull with the vets, but I don't want to underestimate it either.

2007-10-22 10:52:57
26.   NJYankee41
21 I just finished reading his list. Call me stubborn, but I seriously wouldn't want that pint-sized hypocrite on my team. He also managed to take another jab at A-Rod by saying its a lot of money to spend on a player who hasn't ever played in the WS.
2007-10-22 10:53:36
27.   ms october
25 The SI article linked in the write-up talks about Jeter's influence on Posada
2007-10-22 10:57:27
28.   Yankee Fan In Boston
18 somebody at work told me this morning that rodriguez and boras told the yankees that pena was the option rodriguez favored. i know pena has been a mentor of sorts for cano & melky, and they are rdriguez's pals and everything... but i haven't been able to find this in print anywhere at all. (supposedly he doesn't want to play for mattingly.)

again, i haven't found any of this online or in print.

2007-10-22 10:59:01
29.   Zack
Pete Abe long ago proved to the world that his actual baseball knowledge and analysis is limited.
2007-10-22 11:01:55
30.   Mattpat11
12 Unless we dump the deadweight in the bullpen and replace it with competents, we can't afford to subtract Rivera and add a guy who lives on the technicalities of the save rule.
2007-10-22 11:02:03
31.   Zack
Besides, Youkilis is about as overrated a 1b as there is, at least offensively. Granted he's an upgrade over what the Yanks have, but those 1st half #s certainly didn't last through the 2nd half...He has good ABs, but I think its a bit premature to anoint him and Pedroia anything special...
2007-10-22 11:02:58
32.   Sliced Bread
Posada is going to do what's best for him and his family.
If the Mets offer more, he might take it.
Simple as that.
Jeter's not going to pay Jorge to stay.
They'll still be friends.
Same goes for Mo.

And I don't think this has all that much to do with Joe.
I mean, if Joe stayed, I believe Mo and Po would as well. But now that he's gone, they might be up for a change of scenery... and a move across town would not disrupt their families in any way.

2007-10-22 11:03:28
33.   Zack
30 Rivera has rarely been used in nonsave situations these days, so I really think the effect would be minimal. I'm not saying the sub would be as good, and i'm not saying i want him gone or think its a good idea, but I think the other players are more important...
2007-10-22 11:05:19
34.   yankz
Funny bit from Heyman: "The timing of the HGH stories is interesting. Rick Ankiel got fingered just as he was hot, and Paul Byrd got it at a time when he was prominent. And I give the authorities credit. Who knew it was worth waiting for Byrd to gain prominence?"
2007-10-22 11:05:46
35.   Zack
Sliced, I think you are reading way too much into Joe's effect and Po's FA talk. Jorge isn't solely interested in $, and I am totally convinced he stays
2007-10-22 11:06:17
36.   tommyl
You guys still have to remember there is more going on than we hear about. I'm sure Cash has already reached out to Posada and Rivera with decent to good offers and I'm also sure he's told A-Rod as such.

As for Pena, I've heard many on the baseball operations side are very impressed with him. He did a good job with the Royals a few years back. Does anyone have more info/analysis on his managerial skills and tendencies? I do know many of the Latin players seem to like him and he's done wonders with some of our players.

2007-10-22 11:07:04
37.   Kered Retej
I think Abreu and Posada are locks to come back. I don't think there are good alternatives at their positions out there, and the price tag is (relatively) reasonable.

A-Rod is a question mark, but I think he will be back as well. Boras can market him all day long, but I think he is unlikely to get more money from another team. I also think he is even less likely to find "acceptance" with another team.

Pettitte will either come back or retire. I'm not sure if he still wants to play, or if he would rather spend time with his family at this point in his life. That said, I hope he stays because I believe he would be a stabilizing influence on the rotation.

Mo is the real wildcard. Much as it pains me to say, he is the most expendable out of the 5 names listed. He should get a fair and reasonable, but not excessive, offer. $40M over 3 years is a little too high.

2007-10-22 11:08:30
38.   tommyl
33 Rivera's real shining qualities are his postseason pitching and more importantly, he ability to go multiple innings. I mean last night was Papelbon's first 6 out save. As for the rest, most save opportunities aren't nail biters, if Joe Borowski can close, so can a lot of others. It'll hurt us in the postseason though. My biggest fear is that losing Mo makes Joba into the closer, which is a waste of resources.
2007-10-22 11:10:32
39.   Yankee Fan In Boston
31 i have a feeling pedroia will be annointed ROY, for what that's worth.
2007-10-22 11:14:21
40.   yankz
39 So was Ben Grieve.
2007-10-22 11:18:19
41.   YankeeInMichigan
The managerial job would be temporary career suicide for Mattingly. He'll make it through a season at most, and he'll get a label as a guy who can't take the heat. After two years out of baseball, he'll land a bench coach job elsewhere (possibly the Dodgers if his son stays in the organization) and eventually will get another shot at managing. If he's successful, the Yanks will come begging.
2007-10-22 11:18:43
42.   Yankee Fan In Boston
40 fair enough. i'll just take my seat now.
2007-10-22 11:19:04
43.   Zack
39 Oh he will, but as we all know, that doesn't prove much. Pedroia had a pretty good year. As far as I can tell, he's Robbie Cano who walks somewhat more 9still not a ton) and hits for less power and plays worse defense. My main point was just that as Pedroia's value is totally tied to his BA (even more so than Cano as he is slower and hits for less power), I want to see him do it again
2007-10-22 11:19:22
44.   Sliced Bread
35 I didn't say he and Rivera are gone, I'm just underscoring that it's possible.
Most seem to take it as a foregone conclusion that they are staying.
The Yanks would not be wise to negotiate from that position.
2007-10-22 11:19:53
45.   Adrian
0 I hope all of them are still with us come '08. I figure we'll have a year of inflated payroll in '08 followed by us filling a bus with Farnsworth, Giambi et al, setting it on fire and driving it into the river.

37 The problem we have is that given the current free agent market, none of our guys are expendable. I love Pettitte, and I hope he returns.

2007-10-22 11:22:54
46.   Mattpat11
33 We'll also have a different manager who might use him differently.

I don't like the idea of having a bullpen that is completely untrustworthy.

2007-10-22 11:26:21
47.   Zack
46 I don't either. But I don't like the idea of someone else at 3b, c, p, or rf a lot more. I don't think Mo really CAN go more than 1 inning these days, not without a lot of rest. And expecting a manager to use Rivera as he would before the stupid save rule was invented is a pipe dream
2007-10-22 11:27:53
48.   Yankee Fan In Boston
45 in the future, feel free to include carl pavano on that burning bus. it is a liberating feeling.
2007-10-22 11:42:04
49.   Mattpat11
I think the bullpen takes priority over right field. The 2007 bullpen was a total disaster and was a huge reason why we bowed out early. You have to assume the Bruneys and the Farnsworths Karstens and the Rasners will be back. And Igawa. He'll outlive me. Unless the starters suddenly go 8 innings, we're not going to go far with a bullpen with men top to bottom who put two men on everytime they come out.
2007-10-22 11:42:37
50.   Shaun P
48 In terms of Pavano, that's about the only time I'd like to hear Hawk say: "HE GONE!"

46 Bullpens are inherently untrustworthy. The number of guys who pitch in the bullpen well year after year after year (that is, 3 years in a row) can probably be counted on ten fingers. The only non-closer I can think of is Scot Shields . . . and he crapped the bed this year.

This makes Mo all the more valuable.

FWIW, I think all 5 will return.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-22 11:48:03
51.   tommyl
46 What are you talking about? Isn't that EDSP guy still around? ;)

Seriously, you make a good point, but I doubt whoever we hire is going to be so bold as to use Rivera in the 7th inning ever.

2007-10-22 11:51:11
52.   joejoejoe
All of the above.

And Rocco Baldelli.

2007-10-22 12:01:40
53.   Mattpat11
52 To bolster out DL corps?
2007-10-22 12:12:36
54.   Rob Middletown CT
IIUC, the team holds an option on Abreu. So I think he's coming back.

Pettitte is the opposite: player option. No idea. I think it will matter to him if Posada and Mo are coming back.

I think they will bring Posada back. I also think they will find a way to mollify Mo, but I'm less certain.

As for ARod, I dunno. I think it's best for all concerned if he returns, but will Boras and the brothers Steinbrenner figure that out?

2007-10-22 12:17:00
55.   Max
34 I know Selena Roberts isn't a real popular name around here, but I can't believe no one has mentioned her column pointing out George Mitchell's Red Sox loyalties, and how no Red Sox player has (yet) been the subject of suspicion. I greatly enjoyed it, personally.
2007-10-22 12:18:09
56.   Mattpat11
54 Frankly, I'm almost as worried about Rodriguez as I am Boras. Its certainly not unheard of for him to make massive errors in judgment.
2007-10-22 12:19:06
57.   Mattpat11
55 I think you had to figure anyone Bud selected was going to have massive flaws.
2007-10-22 12:21:47
58.   Rob Middletown CT
56 - Did ARod really make a massive error in judgment? He did get the biggest contract ever and all that. And he still managed to end up a Yankee, with the chance to go to the playoffs year after year. Pretty slick...
2007-10-22 12:25:21
59.   Mattpat11
58 He's also a man that decided to put down his best friend in the press and walk around a major city with his mistress.

And, as you've said, he is more than willing to go to a team with no shot in hell if they give him more money.

2007-10-22 12:37:30
60.   tommyl
59 but two of those mistakes were done when A-Rod was much younger and less savvy. Did he know then that Texas would be a non-contender? Maybe back then he didn't care as much, but now he does.

As for the mistress thing, eh, has it been shown she was actually his mistress? Maybe its out of context? Maybe it is, but at any rate that is a small screw up compared to choosing the wrong place to go for the next 10 years.

I also think A-Rod's situation will actually be less about the money if all parties proceed as planned. Look, the Yankees will make a very, very large offer. Besides the Yankees there are only a few other teams that could offer him comparable money and actually would want him (Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs and Giants come to mind, anyone else?). The Sox might be out of the running if they decide they'd just rather have Lowell and the added payroll/roster flexibility that comes with him. So we're talking two to four teams besides the Yankees. If he opts out will the Angels offer as much cash then? Will they offer more than $30/year which is what he Yankees will surely offer?

No, I think this will be about where Alex wants to play. He can choose the Yankees and be remembered as one of the all time great Yankees, or he can be a baseball vagabond, much like Gary Sheffield. A player remembered for being great, but whose legacy is murky because no one fan base will claim him as their own. I've been a huge champion of A-Rod around these parts, and I've never seen a greater hitter in person in my life, but this decision will tell us a lot about him.

2007-10-22 12:50:48
61.   MC Safety
The Red Sox PR department makes me wanna puke. So first they lose to Paul Byrd (the junkiest junk baller of them all), all of the sudden Big Papi's got a bad knee. Next thing you know this douchebag ( supposedly ) from the San Francisco Chronicle ( famed for blowin the lid on Balco ) is bringing light to the fact that Paul Byrd received HGH. First Ankiel now Byrd? It seems the plan is to round up the little fish, while the big fish just swim freely and safely from harm. What a joke. Between this and Big Papi's bi monthly guilty conscience statements about being all natural, I have lost all respect for that franchise.
2007-10-22 13:04:47
62.   jonm
60 That's an excellent point about A-Rod as a baseball vagabond. If A-Rod goes to a new team, that would mean that his peak years would have been spread across four teams. Sheffield is like that, but A-Rod is in a different class than Sheffield -- A-Rod aspires to be an inner circle Hall of Famer. The only inner circle Hall of Famer whose peak was spread around like that is Rogers Hornsby and even Hornsby, I believe, has been under-rated because of all of the times he was traded after he was 30.

I've heard that A-Rod knows his baseball history. I wonder if he's thought about this.

2007-10-22 13:06:27
63.   pistolpete
55 The whole Paul Byrd nonsense coming out right before game 7 reeked of dirty pool as well.
2007-10-22 13:21:54
64.   YankeeInMichigan
Joel Sherman presents an interesting comparison of the current Yankee state to post-season 1995: http://tinyurl.com/2hnwhm

What he doesn't mention is that, in 1995, the Yankees hired a Yankee outsider with low expectations (Torre). Although Mattingly is similar (as Sherman notes) in having a calm personality and in being a borderline Hall of Famer who had never won a championship, his Yankee pedigree will create extra preasure.

Put me in the Pena camp. He has the ability to succeed and won't be afraid to fail.

2007-10-22 13:22:03
65.   tommyl
62 Actually, I'm not so sure the Sheff comparison is that far off. I think A-Rod is a better player, but looking at Sheff's baseball reference page, he has a career OPS+ of 143, A-Rod's is 147. A-Rod is way ahead of the pace in terms of counting stats like hits and HRs, but Sheffield will finish up with close to 3000 hits and at least 500 HRs. If Gary had played for a single team like the Yankees throughout his peak I think we'd be talking about him as one of the best Yankee righthanded hitters ever, behind people like DiMaggio.

The difference is that if A-Rod were to stay with the Yankees, we might be talking about him as the greatest righthanded Yankee hitter ever and one of the all time great Yankees behind perhaps only Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle. If it were me, that'd be worth a couple of million dollars out of $400 million, but that's just me.

2007-10-22 13:23:09
66.   JL25and3
I've said before, I'll say again: all of Boras's recent statements make me believe that Rodriguez is coming back.
2007-10-22 13:28:07
67.   JL25and3
In other news, it turns out that Dumbledore is gay: http://tinyurl.com/344hot
2007-10-22 13:29:19
68.   RIYank
67 I saw that.
Does it, though? Does JK really still have the authority to just 'make it true' by announcing it?
(Weeping, please way in! Rilkefan, exercise a little 'g' for us here!)
2007-10-22 13:32:44
69.   yankz
68 Her world, her rules. I'm guessing she's no Rockies fan.
2007-10-22 13:33:42
70.   RIYank
I'm still thinking about Tabata.
Suppose they just pick up the one year option on Abreu. Then after '08, if Jose is ready or close they could use him as the fourth OF. If he isn't, they can shop for an Abreu replacement (or try to re-sign Bobby for another year or two), and they still have slots opening up after '09, which is when both Damon's contract and Matsui's expire.

So, it seems ideal to pick up the Abreu option. Maybe slightly over-paying, but just for a year and in an off-season in which the alternatives are very likely to be: over-paying for Torii Hunter; waaaay over-paying for Andruw Jones.

2007-10-22 13:33:42
71.   Jeb
All of them are returning IMO. If there's any luck involved, the Yanks will stay out of free agency and trades and keep up the youth movement. Red Sox get older and the Yanks get younger.
2007-10-22 13:35:05
72.   JL25and3
68 As a lit-crit question, that would be debatable. But in practical terms, I'd say yes, she has the authority - because if anyone quiestioned it, she could just write another book and make it explicit. I think that gives her final say.
2007-10-22 13:35:22
73.   Sarasota
Dumbledore being gay is as queer as an unpaid hotel parking ticket.
2007-10-22 13:35:54
74.   RIYank
69 Rockies: right, for sure.
Her rules: that's what I'm not so sure about. She may have lost control now that the series is over. Whatever's in there, that's the material, and anyone gets to make of it whatever he thinks makes the most sense.

Wow, is this off-topic or what?

2007-10-22 13:37:27
75.   RIYank
72 You think she has final say because she could write another book, or that she will have final say if she does? I agree with the latter; not so sure about the former.

73 Uh... Too deep for me.

2007-10-22 13:38:46
76.   Jeb
73 who is Dumbledore?
2007-10-22 13:39:28
77.   Bama Yankee
And y'all get upset at some of us when we talk about college football...
;-)
2007-10-22 13:39:40
78.   Shaun P
67 WTF?

I don't see what this does. I loved the books, but I fail to see how that fits in with the story at all.

66 I agree.

2007-10-22 13:40:21
79.   Sarasota
one of the...uhm...central characters in Harry Potter....
2007-10-22 13:41:06
80.   RIYank
Help me with something more baseball.

Over at Bad Altitude, Mark TRD says (in comments) that the chance of one of the best teams in baseball beating one of the worst (all MLB, of course) in any given game is only 54-55%. At least I think that's what he said. It's comment 15.

That seems plainly wrong to me. Top teams win 60% of their games. Bottom teams win 40%. Surely the chance of the Indians beating the D-Rays in a given game (ignoring what it would be impossible to ignore in practice, like who the starting pitchers are) has to be more than 60%.

The context is thinking about the chances of winning a 7-game series. Mark's points are otherwise impeccable, I think.

2007-10-22 13:42:45
81.   RIYank
78 She said it explains his infatuation with, hm, that guy. The guy he hung out with in his youth and turned out to have leanings toward the dark side. Can't remember the guy's name.
Should there be spoiler warnings here?
2007-10-22 13:45:31
82.   Bama Yankee
76 That would be Phil Fulmer's nickname if he coached at Vanderbilt... ;-)

(btw, good to see you back, ol' buddy)

2007-10-22 13:45:32
83.   yankz
78 My guess is she just wanted to piss off the fundamentalists a little more.

76 Only the most powerful wizard who ever lived. Duh.

I agree with 72 . RIYank, you're not one of those lame fanfic authors, are you? Because their opinions don't count.

2007-10-22 13:46:24
84.   yankz
81 Grindelwald. Duh.

And no, it's been 3 months. Anyone who hasn't read it yet shouldn't care enough if it gets spoiled.

2007-10-22 13:46:24
85.   Jeb
79 Thank you. The harry potter series has never exactly been my cup of tea. I'm just not a big fan of fantasy (Wizards, etc.) of the Lord of the rings genre. I much prefer a good John Irving novel or a Roger Kahn baseball book (e.g., Boys of Summer, Old Enough to Dream, The Seventh Game, etc.).
2007-10-22 13:47:13
86.   Jeb
82 thank you Bama. I am back to stay! ROLL TIDE! and hooray for Andy Phillips.
2007-10-22 13:48:43
87.   Jeb
82 wouldn't it be awful if MLB was as bad a college football with the schools turning each other in. Old Fulmer did a number on Alabama when Dubose was there. I could just see John Henry turning George Steinbrenner in for secondary rules violations.
2007-10-22 13:48:44
88.   JL25and3
59 I think "mistress" is giving her way too much benefit. If it hadn't been in the papers, I doubt he would have remembered her name the next day.
2007-10-22 13:50:08
89.   RIYank
83 Lame fanfic authors...
I don't think so. I'm kind of lame, but the rest of it I don't understand.

No opinions about 80 ?

2007-10-22 13:50:21
90.   Schteeve
Boras is 100% right. If Rivera, Posada, Pettitte and Abreu aren't back next year, it's a very different team, and if I were A-Rod I might not want to come back with so many question marks.

Even the biggest Boras basher has to see that it changes the equation significantly.

If the Yankees are smart, they will name a manager this week.

They will also call Alex and tell him that they are prepared to do whatever it takes to keep Posada. This is a must in my opinion, as there are no viable, congruous, replacements anywhere at any level.

As for Rivera. Great Yankee. First ballot HOF. One of the most amazing athletes I've ever seen. To do what he's done for so long. So steadily. To kill ML hitters when they pretty much know what's coming and yet can't do a damn thing about it. The guy is probably a once in a lifetime phenomenon.

That said, I believe the importance of Rivera, and all closers for that matter is overstated. If they can't get a deal done for him, I'm not going to shed too many tears about it.

In order of importance, here are the guys the Yankees NEED to bring back next year.

A-Rod
Posada
Abreu
Pettitte
.
.
.
.
Mo.

2007-10-22 13:51:50
91.   yankz
89 Don't really feel like thinking too hard right now. Long Monday, you know how it is.

I'm very lame, BTW. But I would never insult the world JK Rowling created by passing off something I wrote as having any credibility WRT her story.

2007-10-22 13:52:19
92.   RIYank
90 I know what you mean about Mo. If we hadn't just had the Bullpen from Hell year, I'd say the same. But man, it's going to be grim going into late innings and relying on the other guys.

Should Cashman go after Gagne?

2007-10-22 13:53:01
93.   yankz
90 I'm as Mo fanboy as it gets, and I see where you're coming from. However, I think you should eliminate those dots when you think about the rest of the bullpen. Mo could pitch lefty and still be the best of the bunch.
2007-10-22 13:56:26
94.   Jeb
90 could the Yanks declare that they will never again negotiate with a scott boras client? It seems to me that this would simplify things for them if they said that and meant it.
2007-10-22 13:58:14
95.   Mattpat11
93 Mo could pitch with his foot and he's more valuable than most of them.
2007-10-22 13:59:25
96.   Mattpat11
On that note, did Kyle Farnsworth's ERA+ from 2006 jump like four points lately? I could have sworn if was 99.
2007-10-22 14:00:40
97.   51cq24
i can't disagree more with the idea that mo is the least valuable of these 5. check out his postseason numbers again. add to his own value the importance of getting joba into the rotation and the state of the bullpen without him, and i think he's the most important re-signing.
2007-10-22 14:01:53
98.   51cq24
90 mo isn't just any closer. check his stats.
2007-10-22 14:02:18
99.   yankz
KSK tears apart Bostonians: http://tinyurl.com/3b92cc
2007-10-22 14:02:48
100.   jkay
Boras in the New Yorker says A-Rod "enjoyed" playing in New York. (last page of article)

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/10/29/071029fa_fact_mcgrath

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-22 14:02:52
101.   Zack
72 I would argue, as a lit-crit person, that Rowling's authority is actually irrelevant. She can think what she wants, but that doesn't generate any meaning. As Foucault said, the author is dead, in that the role of author as creator and origin of text relies on the false position of author as center and sole possessor of authorship. Of course, the author doesn't create text and is but one part of a larger system of meaning. We tend to endow the author with absolute power, thus the "her world her rules" argument, but I would argue that the opposite is true. Dumbledore exists not as a function of Rowling's mind but in the text (since everything is text after all) and thus meaning exists in the text and its reading/interpretation/iteration.

Ergo, Dumbledore exists independently of Rowling .

On the other hand, as a theatre person, I would argue that as a character, Dumbledore only exists as part of the larger machine of the play and to even speculate on his sexuality is impossible since its not in the text. An actor playing Dumbledore or a reader imagining him can choose to play him gay, thus creating meaning in the moment, but thats it...

Or, put differently, the concept of authorship is just as subjective as

2007-10-22 14:03:16
102.   ms october
90 Agred - just because people don't like the messenger doesn't mean the message is wrong. And his point is that ARod will have the pressure of leading his team to the World Series, so why would he want that pressure for a clearly depleted team.
93 I too am an over zealous Mo fan but see the point as far as the notion of who will replace what each player gives. But with that in mind Mo's value comes out much more in the postseason.
89 Don't have much brainpower left, but I think you are right. He goes on to say that the odds for an underdog can go to as high as 66%. I think the 60% chance is more like it than 54%
2007-10-22 14:03:39
103.   Schteeve
93 You are definitely right. Once A-Rod and the others are back, assuming Mo goes to Flushing or Oakland or Tampa or some other blasphemous place, the Yankees need to get their ass in gear and overpay for every good bullpenner available.

I'm not being sarcastic either.

2007-10-22 14:05:17
104.   Zack
oops, that was way to late and probably didn't make much sense
2007-10-22 14:05:29
105.   Schteeve
98 If you read what I wrote, you would know that I don't think he's "just any closer." I think I said something about "first ballot hall of famer." But who knows, maybe I'm wrong. I get confused and dizzy a lot lately worrying about Joe Torre.
2007-10-22 14:06:18
106.   RIYank
103 Gagne?
2007-10-22 14:07:13
107.   yankz
100 Well, technically, "enjoys" would incorrect because he's not currently playing, no?
2007-10-22 14:09:56
108.   Schteeve
97

Win Shares Above Bench - 2007 Season

A-Rod = 26
Posada = 15
Pettitte = 8
Abreu = 7
Mo = 4

Mo's fantastic postseason ability helped us exactly not at all this year.

2007-10-22 14:11:28
109.   Schteeve
106 I don't know anything about any Gagne. For all I know the team could win with a bullpen made up of guys from Scranton.
2007-10-22 14:12:12
110.   51cq24
105 i actually did read your post, and i'm not wasting any energy worrying about someone who can turn down $5 million as an insult.

you did indeed praise mo, but your reasoning about his value seems based solely on his being a closer. am i wrong?

2007-10-22 14:13:04
111.   Shaun P
94 That hasn't worked out well for Baltimore.

The problem is, Boras represents some of the best talent out there, and the Yanks would be limiting an already limited pool (quality free agents and draftees) by not working with him.

2007-10-22 14:14:39
112.   Schteeve
110 Sorry for being snippy. My reasoning about his value is based on the fact that he's a relief pitcher. I think the HBT WSAB numbers above illustrate my rationale for ranking him 5/5. In order of importance.
2007-10-22 14:16:05
113.   51cq24
101 i agree with you about her authority. but i don't think it's impossible to speculate on something that isn't explicitly in the text. in this case, i think there was some evidence that dumbledore was gay. i just don't know why anyone cares. and i do think it's annoying of her to make all these extratextual announcements.
2007-10-22 14:17:06
114.   Zack
105 Schteeve I am with you on it. Mo is only valuable if the team can score enough runs and maintain the lead to get to him. Thus, A-Rod, pettite, JoPo and Bobby A seem more important to me.
2007-10-22 14:20:22
115.   Schteeve
One last thing on Mo. I'm getting a bit sick of all these multi millionaires going on and on about how they are disrespected, because it's complete horseshit.

It's not about "respect" it's about dollar dollar bills y'all, and I wish they'd just come out and call it what it is.

You're a 37 year old athlete. You had some injury issues last year. You think it's disrespectful that the Yankees wanted to see how your 2007 went before opening the checkbook? Come on. That's not disrespectful, that smart. What are they supposed to do, give you a slot in the BP in perpetuity because you're a nice dude?

2007-10-22 14:20:59
116.   51cq24
115 that i agree with 100%.
2007-10-22 14:22:54
117.   tommyl
115 Yeah, as much as I love Mo, I sort of agree with you. Does Mo love the Yankees so much that he'll play for less money? According to Heyman the Yankees have offered him a deal that would make him the highest paid closer in the game. How is that not showing respect?

The only player/team that seems to have a deal like this worked out is Tim Wakefield and his perpetual $4 million team option. That's showing love. Of course, I also remember when Arroyo gave them the home team discount only to be traded a month later. That was kinda funny.

2007-10-22 14:25:24
118.   tommyl
Also, when I took my job I was "negotiating" for such things as an extra couple hundred bucks for moving expenses, and it was a difficult negotation. I also think my employers absolutely respect me. Mo has a lot of love here (and well deserved), but the incredibly overpaid, multi-millionaire athlete whining about lack of respect when being offered a $40+ million deal does not engender my respect.
2007-10-22 14:25:28
119.   51cq24
115 also the idea that they have to do what's best for them and their families. as if someone making $10 million per year is failing to provide for his family whereas someone making $15 million is succeeding. we all go on about relative value position by position, but it's dishonest to put these numbers in terms of providing for your family/providing for your future. all major leaguers make much more than enough money, even the ones who make $380,000.
2007-10-22 14:25:54
120.   thelarmis
i think 5-for-5, they'll all be back. i think boBBy is very important to Alex. it's quite often he says how wonderful it is to hit behind boBBy - he sees sooo many pitches and is on base an awful lot.

i hope molina is back and duncanstein is still on the bench.

we'll soon be rid of farnsy, giambino and moose. hopefully igawa gets traded; there is interest (padres)...

out of the 3 managerial candidates, i wouldn't mind seeing what pena can do for a year or three...

i'm a HUGE LotR fan! i saw the 1st or 2nd Harry Potter movie and liked it, but never read any of the books or saw any of the other movies, so i don't know much about it. Tolkien, however...RULES! : )

hey, welcome back, Jeb!

2007-10-22 14:27:01
121.   RIYank
I dunno, I have a little more sympathy for Rivera's stance than you guys have. After all, I love his 'Oh really, you think I'm maybe losing my stuff, huh?' attitude. And maybe that's the attitude that makes him disgruntled about getting no contract. If he did say he's not getting 'respect', then I do agree that's kind of melodramatic.

Here's a more hard-nosed way to look at it. If the Yanks had negotiated to re-sign him in April, then they would have been taking a risk (that he's already in rapid decline), and he would have had to take that into account in his demands. Now he's shown that he's fine, and the Yankees will have to pay for that.

And tommyl 117 , maybe that offer actually is 'showing respect' (or whatever the better way is to put it) and he'll appreciate it?

I dunno. The whole psychological aspect is so speculative.

2007-10-22 14:28:43
122.   51cq24
120 the books are infinitely better (than the movies) and you should definitely read them if you liked the movies at all
2007-10-22 14:28:58
123.   RIYank
119 The whole "I have to take care of my family" thing, that's the one card I absolutely can't stand. How stupid do they think we are? Or are they so out of touch that they really do think they need another $50M instead of $46M if they're going to take care of their families??
2007-10-22 14:29:49
124.   RIYank
Gotta go.
I'll come back to disagree with everyone later.
2007-10-22 14:31:55
125.   Mattpat11
Also, if I have to watch Kyle Farnsworth close for a year, I may have a stroke.
2007-10-22 14:33:28
126.   thelarmis
120 oh, i agree for the Tolkien stuff - i've read all the books: hobbit, trilogy, silmarrion, short stories, lost tales, tolkien reader, etc... it's the Harry Potter stuff i haven't read...

yeah, it's also ridiculous when these athletes get a bazillion dollars in their contract and then on top of that get plane tickets, moving expenses, cars and the like. it's sickening. i could live off their freaking per diem food money and would consider it a succesful yearly total!

2007-10-22 14:33:37
127.   yankz
120 Books >>>> Movies

I thought the first 2 movies were way too kiddie. If you liked them, you'll definitely like the books.

2007-10-22 14:33:52
128.   thelarmis
124 that's awesome! : )
2007-10-22 14:34:15
129.   yankz
123 Well, if their families are as pampered and spoiled as they are...
2007-10-22 14:35:25
130.   jonm
96 Sean changed the park factors lately. Going from 99 to 90 (like Farnsworth 2006) seems rather extreme though.
2007-10-22 14:37:57
131.   yankz
The baseball savants over at LoHud have gotten beyond ridiculous. It used to be propose absurd ideas for trades. Now it's propose absurd ideas for random coaching jobs.

Paul O'Neill for "clubhouse motivator"! Bernie for 3B coach!

When have these guys given ANY indication that they want to leave home to travel 6 months a year??? If they had, sure. But to totally make stuff like that up...

Hey, why not Ramiro Mendoza for bullpen coach bcuz he wuz once pretty gud outa tha pen 4 us lol

2007-10-22 14:43:10
132.   yankz
You know what's going to be pure awesome?

.
.
.

Manny Ramirez's HOF acceptance speech.

2007-10-22 14:43:18
133.   JL25and3
101 I was counting on you for the postmodernist, deconstructionist crap. But here it only holds if you assume that the text is complete. But that's entirely and exclusively under Rowling's control, so the text still belongs to her.
2007-10-22 14:46:07
134.   thelarmis
132 unless he forgets to show up or double booked himself for some classic car show or something...
2007-10-22 14:48:12
135.   yankz
134 LOL!

My prediction: Manny doesn't realize he's supposed to make a speech, so he just takes his award and goes.

2007-10-22 14:53:47
136.   thelarmis
135 let's just hope he doesn't take home his 2nd WS MVP award in 4 years coming up. i have a feeling that...(gulp)...he will. : (
2007-10-22 14:57:09
137.   rilkefan
68 Mrs. R hasn't let me read book 7 yet, since she insisted on rereading the whole series and then having us read the last book together, so I don't have an informed opinion about the in-universe point. But - without taking a deconstructionist position, I don't think the author gets a say on such questions. Jane Austen can add a detail to Emma after the fact - but this seems more like a readerly function. I think Estella and Pip part for good in Great Expectations even though Dickens came up with a replacement ending.

Tolkien can say that the Ring isn't the A-bomb, but that's because he can point out that the story's genesis preceded WWII. But one can still read the story in light of Hiroshima.

2007-10-22 15:06:05
138.   51cq24
yes took torre out of the yankeeography commercials??
2007-10-22 15:10:58
139.   yankz
137 I know it's not copyrighted or anything, but I'd just feel dirty messing with an author's world, especially one I respect that much. It's a product of her intellect. For me, or anyone else to say, "Nope- Dumbledore's straight," suggests, at least to me, that we have as much ownership over the character as she does. And that just doesn't sit well with me. We didn't earn that right.
2007-10-22 15:12:19
140.   thelarmis
138 yikes!

via pete abe: cash and girardi departed legends field. no talkie to reporters...

2007-10-22 15:14:29
141.   51cq24
138 replaced by steinbrenner no less
2007-10-22 15:15:31
142.   Ken Arneson
132 Indeed. I'm looking forward to Rickey Henderson's HOF speech, too.
2007-10-22 15:18:18
143.   standuptriple
142 I think he has to retire first.
2007-10-22 15:21:07
144.   thelarmis
143 i want him to come back and miraculously hit 3 homers so he can enter my favorite exclusive baseball club: 300-300. then again, i also want biggio to come back next year just so he can hit 9 more longballs to join. sigh... : ~
2007-10-22 15:26:57
145.   Ken Arneson
144 I was rooting hard for Biggio to tie Hughie Jennings on the all-time HBP list. He ended up two HBPs short.

I saw Jake Peavy groove a fat one down the middle to Barry Bonds in his last Giants' at-bat. (He lined out to deep center.) How come nobody in the last few weeks threw any nice fat slow inside curves for Biggio to lean into?

2007-10-22 15:35:33
146.   thelarmis
145 yeah, i wish he would've gotten that record, too! isn't he considered the leader of the "modern era"?

i write these baseball "articles" on the 300-300 club and power-speed stuff. there was A LOT of impressive numbers piling up for my man, Biggio. here are some of them, but this was going into the 2007 season. i have not checked his final stats and updated. either way, pretty impressive. (though his cooperstown speech won't be as much fun as manny/rickey!)

TPA (total plate appearances) - #17 11,949 (end up in 9th)

Runs - #18 1776 (should move into 13th)

Hits - 2930 (should be 27th to 3,000. end up in 22nd place)

Doubles - #9 637 (chance to be #5, definitely #6)

XBH (extra base hits) - #30 970 (25 have 1,000. could be #23)

HBP (hit-by-pitch) - #2 282 (should easily end up #1)

TB (total bases) - #35 4,514 (should slide into 26th all-time)

*note the HBP didn't happen : (

2007-10-22 15:44:58
147.   Peter
145 You weren't the only one.
http://tinyurl.com/2q5afc
2007-10-22 15:49:50
148.   thelarmis
147 that's awesome!

145 well, you say you wanted bidge to tie jennings. i wanted him to beat jennings and have the record all to himself. : )

2007-10-22 16:14:29
149.   yankz
Pete has audio with Girardi up.
2007-10-22 16:28:54
150.   tommyl
149 Thanks. Listening to it now, seems pretty damn good so far. Didn't realize his father was so sick, that's awful.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-22 16:30:30
151.   yankz
Reporters are morons. Question I wish they'd ask: What would you do differently from Joe Torre?
2007-10-22 16:31:03
152.   yankz
150 Yeah. Girardi strikes me as a man of few words, which I respect. I hate ramblers.
2007-10-22 16:31:24
153.   Chyll Will
Dagnabbit, missed another good OT again... (returns to seeking Cowboy Bebop soundtrack...)
2007-10-22 16:33:37
154.   tommyl
152 I love the answer to the question if Joe's departure showed that nothing short of a WS win is ever good enough for the Yankees, he said, "If that's not your goal, then I don't really understand. That's what you want the goal to be."

Good freakin' answer man.

Also, who is the beat writer for the NY Post? Is star-1 that hard to remember?

2007-10-22 16:34:47
155.   tommyl
Also, this Q and A:

Asked about the idea of following Joe Torre, who he played for: "Obviously, we all have great respect for Joe Torre and what he accomplished here. The one thing you think about is you have to be your own man. I can't be someone that I'm not."

Seems like he's ok with the media so far. Oh no, Murray is on the line now...

2007-10-22 17:25:08
156.   ms october
154 George King - what an idiot.
Yeah - that was a good answer.

He is a smart "thinking" guy and it showed in the call - he had pretty thoughtful responses for just about all the questions.
My favorite part was him not naming Randy Levine as being present.

2007-10-22 17:34:49
157.   yankz
156 Did he name the Steinbrothers? I didn't hear it. So Levine was probably at that separate meeting.

I was listening for Nardi's name, but couldn't hear it, which is disappointing IMO. I hope Nardi lays down some rules for whoever manages next year.

2007-10-22 18:15:37
158.   Sarasota
what I liked about Girardi before he had the Marlins gig was that he explained things in a clear unambiguous way. Since he got canned he's turned into one of the biggest politically correct meatheads out there. Did anyone else see David Justice clean his clock during the YES postgame 2 weeks ago re: Alex thinking and deciding about opting out?? Justice flat out hammered him. I prefer the old Joe.
2007-10-22 18:18:59
159.   yankz
158 Hopefully he's the old Joe behind the camera lenses.

Also, I am just praying for the days when NYY's payroll falls below Boston's. Then all the whiners across the country will lose their #1 retort.

2007-10-22 18:20:01
160.   RIYank
David Justice might make a pretty good manager some day, come to think of it.
2007-10-22 18:21:18
161.   RIYank
158 The Hammer of Justice! I knew there was something resonant in your turn of phrase at the end of that paragraph.
2007-10-22 18:33:53
162.   Sarasota
.....pure speculation on my part....but I'm thinking that Big Stein and his 2 small Steins all had Levitra hard ons for Joe's crew cut.
2007-10-22 18:35:41
163.   yankz
...nasty.
2007-10-22 18:59:09
164.   weeping for brunnhilde
131 Bullpen coach!

ha ha hah ah aha !

2007-10-22 19:07:54
165.   weeping for brunnhilde
115 - 119

Point taken, but I wonder why your natural affinity is with management. Not a judgment, just an observation.

In the context of their negotiations, the players are (likely) looking at the organization's revenue stream and demanding a proportionate share of the money they bring in.

They are the talent, after all.

And just because most poor schlubs get lousy deals from their employers isn't any reason to begrudge ballplayers for demanding their share of the pie, is it?

I just wonder if they might not seem a bit more reasonable if you look at it from their perspective, in the world they move in.

They do work harder than any of us here, I'd guess. They push their bodies to the limits over a grueling seven month schedule.

Not trying to be an apologist or anything, I've just never quite understood why the players catch hell for standing up for themselves in the face of management that would just as soon exploit them.

2007-10-22 19:31:47
166.   Shaun P
165 "I've just never quite understood why the players catch hell for standing up for themselves in the face of management that would just as soon exploit them."

Perception. Its one thing to be making $50K/year and fight to get a 10% raise from an employer who would gladly exploit you at every turn, and would pay you $10K/year if he/she could get away with it.

Its quite another thing to fight for a raise to $11M/year from $10M/year (again, 10%) - even when the owner would also gladly exploit you at every turn, and would pay you $10K/year if he/she could get away with it.

Its very hard for those of us who don't make 8 figures to understand what the difference is between tons of money and tons of money, even if the concept is the same when the salary is much smaller.

Your point stands, though, weeping. The players may be making tons of money, but its not like the Yanks are last in the league in revenue.

160 15 years ago, who would have ever thought of David Justice as "manager material"?! How times have changed.

2007-10-22 19:36:39
167.   Chyll Will
153 Found it! G'nite, all >;) zzzzz...
2007-10-22 19:42:38
168.   weeping for brunnhilde
166 That's exactly right, Shaun, the difference between tons of money and tons of money. It all seems absurd.

So I'm thinking about what that difference might actually be and it occurs that "family" is probably a catch-all term to include things like charity work.

I don't know how many players run charities, but my impression is it's quite a few. Add in all the players who come from nothing in Latin America and invest some of their money in their communities at home and I can see the difference. An extra mil could help build dozens of new ball fields in Panama, or whatever.

Not that the players are going hungry, obviously, but I'd not be surprised if a lot of that extra money ends up in some pretty deserving hands.

2007-10-22 19:45:22
169.   weeping for brunnhilde
166 Reminds me of a scene from "Almost Famous," actually. Have you seen it?

Amazing film.

The scene where the fast-talking manager comes in to convince the band it's letting all sorts of money slip away.

"Nah, it's not about the money," the band replies.

"The money's out there! You are all making money, right now! It's out there already, I'm just talking about bringing it back here."

What a great fucking film.

"I am a golden god!"

2007-10-22 20:09:05
170.   thelarmis
i just listened to the 17 minute Joe Girardi Q&A pete abe has up. he did indeed handle it all with aplomb. i think i'd feel better w/ either him or pena at the helm. mattingly doesn't have the managerial experience and he's such a yankees icon, i'd hate for him to possibly suffer any badness in pinstripes...
2007-10-22 20:37:26
171.   51cq24
165 weeping, it has nothing to do with management. all i'm talking about is the disingenuous argument that players make like "i just have to do what's best for my family." the league minimum puts a player in the highest tax bracket. yet the best-paid players talk about $10 million a year as if it's insufficient to support their families.

you don't have to be either pro-management or pro-players. both sides have much more money than they deserve, and we have to go pay quite a bit for decent tickets or have cable in order to see almost every game. and a bottle of water costs $4.50 in the stadium.

168 are you joking? so when they make $15 million, then they can give some to charity, but when they make $10 million, they can't afford that. that is not what is going on.

2007-10-22 21:03:30
172.   weeping for brunnhilde
171 Well, I don't know what they really want. My point was just that "doing the best for my family" needn't be taken literally. They're obviously not talking about buying milk for the kids. I don't know whether what they say is ingenuous or not, and I'd guess it varies by individual.

But they're not literally arguing that $10 million is insufficient, they're arguing that they want what's coming to them.

Just as we in the States, even those of us "struggling," are in an enviable position (materially) by the vast majority of the world's citizens.

It's relative, I guess is what I'm saying.

As to "both sides have much more money than they deserve," I agree.

But given the rules of this society of ours, I don't think baseball players are being any more unreasonable than anyone else, especially, especially, seeing as how they really do sacrifice their bodies to play at a high level. Sure, they live out a dream and all, but they really do work for a living.

2007-10-22 21:51:15
173.   e double trouble
How about Paul O'Neil to manage?
2007-10-22 21:57:42
174.   Schteeve
165 My natural affinity is with the truth not with management or talent. Players who want money say they want respect. They don't, they want MONEY. Just say it. I want money, and I want it my way, when I want it. I don't want to have to prove myself, I've spent my whole career proving myself, pay me.

As if they haven't been paid already.

They whine about trust and fair play, but at the end of the day it's about cold hard cash, and the fact that they try to shroud it in a plea for respect or the ability to take care of their family is insulting and disingenuous.

The average family in this country gets by on something like $40 grand a year. So spare me the "respect, and take care of my family" bullshit.

That said, I've never for a second begrudged any player their salary. I think the Yankees should pay A-Rod $50 million dollars next year if that's what it takes. He has a super rare and super in demand skill. Supply and demand rules the day.

2007-10-22 22:01:58
175.   Schteeve
165 And in the last few months I have consistently said that if I were a player I'd hire Boras, and that Boras should make as much hay as he can to get his guys paid, no matter what. I am not a Management flunky nor do I blindly believe that Mariano Rivera has earned some sort of blindly, stupidly deferential treatment by the guardians of the Yankees P&L.
2007-10-22 22:35:20
176.   yankz
173 Please tell me you said that just to anger me.

Please.

2007-10-22 22:48:37
177.   weeping for brunnhilde
175 Forgive me, Schteeve, I'm not accusing you or anyone of being management flunkies. Not at all.

I was more trying to understand whether yours (ours) is the only possible interpretation of events.

Like Joe confessing he felt "insulted" by a contract that any of us would take in a heartbeat. I'm trying to view the situation from the players' perspective, asking if perhaps they're not all as rankly disingenuous as they appear.

I was only making an observation about how we're inclined to assess the situation and asking if maybe we're being too jugmental.

2007-10-23 03:57:45
178.   RIYank
I guess I already said 121 my main piece on this, but I'll just add this.
If players want an extra $12 over the four years, and the reason they want it is to build 24 new baseball fields in the Dominican, that's awesome. But I don't believe that's why, because if that were the reason they would say it was. In fact, it could be in their negotiations: $9M/year, but the team has to build 24 baseball fields in these towns...

But, Schteeve, I think it often is about 'respect'. Or maybe that's not the right word, but what the player wants, often, is something symbolic. He does want the money, but the reason he wants it is for what it symbolizes, not for what he can buy. Damon, for instance -- I believe he signed with the Yankees because the huge cash they threw at him said to him, "We really want you," and the Boston counteroffer said to him, "Yeah, we'd love to have you back but don't get too full of yourself."

But hey, I'm just making this stuff up, just trying to make sense out of it. How do I know what guys think in that situation?

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