Has there ever been a time when a team and a long term, or just successful manager part ways where the fans feel that the coach got a fair deal? Everyone was up in arms when Buck left, billy martin was repeatedly humiliated, yet despite everyone's annoyance/anger, they've always forgiven and forgotten. Or maybe not so much that, but moved on.

So in that spirit, and accepting that Joe Torre is a classy guy, had a great run, and deserves respect, I hope that we can all move on to, because there is still baseball being played (don't look now, but Beckett and Schilling are battling for "greatest post season player ever" according to ESPN), and the offseason for the Yanks is but a week or so old. Meaning, there is a LOT more to come.

If the Yankees act fast and hire Mattingly like it looks, I would put $ on the same coaches being back. Do you think Joe G would do a year as bench coach? Do you think Mattingly would even want that? Would Bowa accept being BC?

Oh, and I have a hard time believing Joe will pull a Yogi on the Yankees.

1 I linked to an article in the previous (and hopefully dead) thread indicating Bowa might take the SEA job because he doesn't want to risk not having a job next year. Cashman called all the coaches saying he won't know until he has a manager.

I would put money on Mattingly getting the job. It looks like expediency is a top priority for the FO.

From today's Times:

This was not the first time the Yankees had talked about a new contract for Torre. Early in spring training, Torre indicated he would be willing to accept a one-year contract extension.

Steve Swindal, who was then Steinbrenner's son-in-law, said a pay cut would be mandatory, but in any case, the Yankees wanted to wait until the season was over. After a third consecutive first-round knockout, they would not give Torre the kind of deal he got last time, after winning six pennants in eight seasons.

end quote

So basically Joe turned down a deal very similar to the one he wanted in spring training? And that's somehow insulting him? Look I think Levine is a total slimeball but Joe was willing to take this contract or something close to it in March. Then he goes out and gets knocked out of the ALDS again after a lackluster showing. Why did he expect them to up their offer?

4 I'm not going to get into this any further, because the past half-dozen threads have all turned into this, but my best bet is: 1. Torre didn't like the incentives clause (Levine's own words were something like "Sometimes people need a little motivation"). 2. Torre thought it wasn't a legitimate contract but rather one he was supposed to reject. 3. Torre saw the ploy as symbolic of a new regime (the "Tampa Trio"), one that would attempt to undercut him constantly, and didn't want any part of that.

Again, just my guesses, and if you'll notice, I didn't pass any judgment on any of the parties involved. (Leave yankz alone!) I'm retiring from this topic. (Though I might mean "retire" the way Roger Clemens does.)

I think Cliff explained it pretty well.

A one-year extension in March means he avoids the lame duck status for the current (2007) year, so it is in effect a two-year deal. That sounds right to me. If what Torre dislikes about the one-year deal is that it leads to the same circus atmosphere at the end of the year, then it's perfectly logical and consistent to be willing to take that deal in March, so that the Fall 2007 circus is avoided, but not in October when the circus is already in full 3-ring glory.

Or Torre think a little too much of himself. Gil Hodges always had one year contracts, so they should be good enough for Torre-especially after winning only four of his last 16 playoff games.

In other news, Pete has unleashed his hounds on the Beckett video, so I'm not alone in my red-dotting quest.

The real reasons Joe left: http://tinyurl.com/yqhob2

7 I thought the point of 4 was that Torre's stances at the two times were not consistent. I was pointing out that that's not true. They were consistent. As Cliff already explained.

Hodges' winning pct with the Mets was .523, so the point of the comparison is a bit mysterious.

10 Wasn't he a unique case? Especially today, don't managers comparable to Joe (in terms of success/longevity) get multi-year deals?

I can't believe the game isn't until 8pm tonight.
This extended playoff format really sucks.

12 Yeah, big time. I've really lost all interest. I am sure I'll watch the game tonight, but they have managed to totally kill the drama. Once again, FOx and MLB gets it totally, totally wrong

11 I'm not going to check all of them, but the (alphabetical by team) first six support your hypothesis:

Scioscia 2 years.
Cecil Cooper 2 years.
Bob Geren 2 years.
John Gibbons 2 years.
Bobby Cox signed one year extension (for 2008) last April.
Ned Yost 2 years.

Apparently, some folks aren't aware of just who Gil Hodges was. Those who were following baseball in that era remember that Hodges was probably number one in the esteem he was held in all of baseball.
Unlike Torre, he didn't inherit a team that had the most wins in the AL two years before and had gotten to the playoffs one year before.
The Mets had lost 101 games the year before Gil arrived-hardly similar circumstances. Using his winning percentage should take that into account.

5 6 Explained very well, thanks. I'm surprised no reporter asked Torre if he would have accepted a one year extension had it been presented as his "swan song" to close out Yankee Stadium, and if the incentives had been removed. Perhaps Torre would have said no anyway, but I can't help wonder if a one year offer with a little more sugar might have been received better.

I'm probably in the minority, but to me that sort of offer would have benefited both sides, and had it been turned down, it certainly wouldn't have made the management look as incompetent as it does now.

13 Completely agree. It feels like, "Are they still playing?" and it's only game 6.

5 I think that's a good summary. 3 is the one that concerns me most.

I also agree with Cliff that the refusal to negotiate says a lot.

16 Yeah, I wonder that too. They asked him to give specifics of what he might have accepted, and he didn't bite. But they could have chosen very specific questions ("Would this have made a difference...?").

Let's all bookmark this spot, and return here in ten years after Cashman's Tell-All book comes out.

15 True, about Hodges. I didn't realize that's how we measured managers.

So, how many pennants had the Yankees won in the 12 years before Torre signed up to manage the Yankees?

"So, how many pennants had the Yankees won in the 12 years before Torre signed up to manage the Yankees?"
What does that have to do with it? Torre didn't inherit the 91 Yankees, did he? He inherited a very good team with a solid bullpen and a lot of good young players who were already "classy and professional" in the clubhouse and on the field.
I have a hard time believing anyone who watched the 94-95 teams can seriously credit Joe Torre with building the teams that won all those rings. He may (or may not) have been a good caretaker, but Buck and Stick are, by far, the most responsible for who was on those teams and the demeanor in the clubhouse.

5 You're right, I should "retire" as well. I guess I just don't like the black and white, good and evil potrayal of the situation. Levine is slimy and maybe they wanted him gone with that offer but I think its more complex than that. I also think Joe was very classy but to paint him as pure good and the poor guy who was taken advantage of is a bit off as well.

Anyways, I hereby retire and will start waiting with eager anticipation for the naming of our next manager.

As this is entering deadhorse territory I will try and be brief. Here are 2 things we know and should agree on.

1) Torre was told the terms by Brian Cashman.
He did not accept, but he did not decline.
2) Joe decided to fly to Florida to meet 'the guys'. On the way down, according to what both Joe and Brian said, Joe was still undecided.

I believe the following are a combination of facts and some logical deductions based on the 2 facts above.

1) Joe still wanted to Manage, but there was something about the contract that rubbed him the wrong way.
2) It was 'close' to acceptable, or he would have just said no.
3) He flew to Florida to get a better feel of when the guys were at.
4) He hoped to bring up his issues, and get enough of a compromise to get it done.

I don't think Joe wanted to quit. I think he inner senses just couldn't accept the deal as it was.

2 years at $12m with a $1 bonus for the WS?
1 year at $6m with a $1 bonus for the WS, and it vests into another year if the win the ALDS?
1 year at $6.5 and done. Joe Torre day. You and Yankee stadium go out on glory together.

You can run the combinations.
Bottom line.
If the Yankees REALLY wanted Joe, regardless of how reasonable or unreasonable Joe was, the Yankees had an opportunity to counter. They would have attempted something. "Joe, we will give a little, and you will give a little, and we will get it done"

21 What the years before have to do with it:
It's more data. Bad idea to judge a team by what it does in one year. Better to judge by two years, or four.

But I don't understand your criteria. If post-season wins count as success, then Torre's success is vastly greater than Hodges'!

Of course Torre didn't "build" the teams that won all those rings. That's an obvious straw man. Torre never built a team in his life; neither did Gil Hodges. So that's a completely irrelevant remark.

My view is that managers can't win post-season games at all, by the way.

How about a simply, pure BUSINESS deal.
YOU get 99% of the profits generated in 2008.
All you care about is money, nothing else.

You have 2 scenerios. Pick the MOST profitable for 2008

1) Give Torre a ONE year deal at $7.5m ($2.5 more then offered, NOT including what might have been paid in 'incentives').

2) Let Torre walk, and take your changes with Bowa, Mo, Po, ARod, Pettitte, bad press, many unhappy fans, and wharever else this has generated.... PLUS... take your chances with Mattingly, because as much as we all love the guy, we don't know if he has the stuff.

Which scenerio is most likely to ULTIMATELY be more profitable in 2008?

Hodges built the team in that he decided who played and who didn't. He constructed a bullpen by deciding who pitched and when they pitched. He also decided who was in the rotation and who wasn't.
But the number one claim to fame of Joe Torre is that he was supposedly the guy who brought "class and professionalism" to the clubhouse, the bench, and on the field. Nothing could be further from the truth. Buck and Stick judged players as much by their demeanor as they did by their numbers. They wanted guys who cheered on their teammates and didn't sit on the bench when a teammate did something good on the field. They also wanted hard workers who would do things like learn the strike zone.
Torre inherited a team that was just like that. He didn't have to do w thing about professionalism in the clubhouse-it was already there.

When Hodges took over the Mets, the opposite situation prevailed-it was similar to when Buck & Stick took over the Yankees.

If you knew your baseball history, you'd know just how highly regarded Gil Hodges was.

By the way, Hodges postseason winning percentage was 87.5.

24 Managers can in effect win some by not losing them.

0 "To me the most telling part of the entire affair is the team's unwillingness to negotiate with Torre. That his meeting with them lasted only about 20 minutes is, to me, the most damning fact of all."

It's still unclear to me that there were two to tango, or even one.

soooo, what are your predictions for tonight's game? anybody?

CLE 8, BOS 3, and for the 8th straight year, MLB has a different champion (with at least one from each division). But the Yankees will continue to be bad for baseball.

I say both Schill and Carmona go 6 innings, 2 runs, leaving it up to the BPs...

Didn't Hodges only make it to the postseason once?

Nice.

Take a "by the way" tack on and make it the central point.

The obvious point of my posts in regard to Hodges were
-that he was probably the most highly regarded manager of his era.
-that he took a lousy team, very much in disarray and made it into a very good team in short order.
-that one year contracts weren't considered an insult to him

and that Torre took a team that
-was already a very good, "classy" team
-and one that had the most wins in the entire league in 94 and that had gotten to the play-offs in 95.

and that if one year contracts were good enough for Gil, why are they "insulting" to St. Joe? The obvious answer is, they aren't. The intent wasn't to insult him or disrespect him. Unless Cashman's lying, it was to make what they had decided was a fair offer.
If he chooses to be insulted by being the highest paid manager, maybe it's time for a little self-analysis on his part.

What are the odds another team offers him a better deal?

26 "Hodges built the team in that he decided who played and who didn't. He constructed a bullpen by deciding who pitched and when they pitched. He also decided who was in the rotation and who wasn't."

Isn't that what every manager - including Torre - does?

33 You really can't compare contracts from then and now. It's like saying, if Mickey Mantle could play one year at a time, why not Derek Jeter?

22 I've been leveling all my criticism at the Yankees, but that doesn't mean I'm beatifying Torre. Regardless of what he did, I think the Yankees were pretty scummy. I think it reflects poorly on the new regime, and that worries me about the future.

29 McCarver will pontificate.

33 "What are the odds another team offers him a better deal? "

0, if you believe what Torre himself said.

36 Agreed.

29 So long as Schilling is not the "hero" I don't really care that much at this point, but hoping for Cle 6 Red Sox 3
But we could see Schilling buzz Kenny Lofton and the Cleveland pitcher with that really fast delivery (Lewis, I think) buzz Manny.
Though I thought it was funny that yesterday at the fish counter at the grocery store 3 Sox fans (I live in Boston for the time being)got into an argument with each other over Kenny Lofton as one thought he was a good player, the other thought he was a punk, and the other thought he was worse than Pacman Jones.

I'm not too worried about the new regime. So far they have come out and said Joba will be a starter next year (good), insulted Joe (bad). I can't say I would be sad to see Levine go, but I'm also not totally convinced of his anti-Christ status yet

The next season should tell us a lot about where we are headed...

33 I guess by the same token, since my neighbor feels cleaning cesspools is good enough for him, it's therefore good enough for you?

What does one person or event have to do with another.
Did Gil play for a team worth over 1 billion?
Did Gil manage a team that made the PS 12 years in a row?
Could Gil put up with George Stinbrenner for 12 years?
Did the fans chant Gil's name in his 'last' game?
Does Gil drink Green Tea?
Is Gil Italian?

When I regotitate with my Boss, based on MY past, MY accomplishments, MY talents, HIS company, HIS needs....
Do you think I care what's happening to some other guy across the street.

Apply your logic to negotiating with ARod. Se how far you get.
Every situation is unique. It must be based on the specific circumstances of the time and the parties involved. Trying to correlate what happens to other people, at other times, under under conditions and circumstances, doesn't work.

If Billy jumps of the Empire State Building, do you?

Oh, also, Torre has been rewarded for the atmosphere he certainly helps foster (I don't see how anyone could deny that, if even he didn't create it) and succeeding. Hodges might have created the best clubhouse, but as a manager, he only finished above .500 three times (compared to 6 times below .500). 1969 certainly looks like a fluke, because those other two years above .500 his teams went 83-79- a whopping .512 winning percentage.

To summarize, Torre was a great clubhouse guy and made the playoffs all 12 years with the team. Hodges was a great clubhouse guy and made the playoffs once and was downright mediocre every year. Torre manages in an era where his less successful peers usually receive multi-year contracts.

Are you Hodges' grandson or something?

every other year*

35 Thank you, JL. That's all that needed to be said on the subject. You can all drop the Hodges thing now.

Meanwhile, I picked the Red Sox to win this series and I think they'll at least get it to Game 7, though I'm not so sure about Matsuzaka in that game. I thought the Sox would wrap it up before getting to that point. I was obviously wrong about that.

25 If you think about it, it doesn't matter. The fans will still come out, the players will play, coaches will coach, and those who leave will be replaced.

And the beat goes on...

wow
"Are you Hodges grandson?" Let me reply with a question of my won: Are you one of Torre's children? Neither question adds to the conversation.

"I guess by the same token, since my neighbor feels cleaning cesspools is good enough for him, it's therefore good enough for you?" I had no idea we were going to go on a journey through fantasy land. What the hell is that about? Talk about something completely out of left field (to return to baseball, even if only in analogy form.)

No matter what the logic, some posters here feel that Torre is the best manager ever, should have been given a lifetime contract, and that the 200 million dollar roster had almost nothing to do with the Yankees regular season success. That Levine and the Steinbrenner boys are the devil incarnate and that anyone who disagrees is a fool.

Torre was given an offer that would have allowed him to remain the highest paid manager in the major leagues. But being the highest paid wasn't enough, he also had to have a contract that would have taken him past the tenure of the GM.

Goodbye Joe, don't let the door hit you on yer ass on the way out.

The job of Yankee manager is more similar to Notre Dame football coach or Chelsea soccer manager than to other baseball jobs.

Take Notre Dame - Ty Willingham was fired in the 3rd year of a 5 year deal. He was replaced by Charlie Weis. In a moment of euphoria Notre Dame gave Weis a 10 year/$30 million dollar contract. As I type this Weis is the coach of a 1-6 team that is losing 38-0 at home to USC. USC has more touchdowns than Notre Dame has first downs. Weis got plenty of 'respect' in his contract extension but is there a single Notre Dame supporter at the moment who doesn't think it was too much?

Chelsea, an extremely wealthy English Premiere League soccer club, just let go their manager Jose Mourinho with a 10-12 million pound payout. That's more than $20 million dollars to kick the manager to the curb. Why? Mourinho wasn't winning enough. He was still winning titles and trophies. Just not enough of them.

What's happening with Joe Torre is not unique. If he was fired after the 2004 ALCS collapse he have been been paid exactly the same money he's earned to date. Instead he was given the opportunity to manage the best franchise in baseball for 3 more years. Three more bites at the apple was a show of 'respect' in my view. Now the two parties part ways with lots of opportunity for both.

It's the end of an era and cause for reflection but I don't see anything bad for team or Torre. Uncertain, yes. Bad, no. The future is bright all around for Yankee fans and Joe Torre supporters.

46 Not many rules here. But when the people upstairs speak, we listen.

Also, NoMaas is alive and kicking.

46 That's, um, an interesting interpretation. But I haven't seen anyone take a position remotely resembling that.

49 There have been quite a few dead horses and strawmen here the last few days.

46 48

some posters here feel that Torre is the best manager ever

No.

should have been given a lifetime contract

No.

and that the 200 million dollar roster had almost nothing to do with the Yankees regular season success

There are people claiming this? Are these voices in your head?

That Levine and the Steinbrenner boys are the devil incarnate

No, just cold or extremely incompetent.

and that anyone who disagrees is a fool

No, though you're tempting us.

Guys, Cliff has stepped in and asked us to stop. I don't want any of us getting banned, so let's let this poor horse RIP.

Boras using this to drive up the price:

"Scott Boras, the agent for star New York Yankees third baseman Alex Rodriguez, told CNNMoney.com Saturday that the current uncertainty surrounding the team, including its managerial opening, will make it difficult for his client to sign with the Yankees by the deadline given by team management."

http://tinyurl.com/25ztj8

Don't look now, and I am sure everyone will just be totally shocked by this, but Boras is (Gasp!) using this "turmoil" to try and get more $ for A-Rod.
http://tinyurl.com/2cye3h

I don't really see anything new in that article to change anything, other than Boras trying a whole new angle. Except that it doesn't quite work or make sense. By just raising the possibility even more of A-Rod leaving, but not for $ issues, that doesn't really lead to A-Rod getting more money. As in, if A-Rod is thinking of opting out b/c of the "manager turmoil," at most it will cause the Yanks to settle on a manager quicker. It doesn't really change anything.

And i do fine it funny that this could be considered "turmoil"

53 nerts!

This was my favorite paragraph by far:
Despite the Yankees frequent statements that the team won't settle for less than winning the World Series, Boras said there is some doubt about the commitment to winning now that George Steinbrenner's sons have assumed more of a leadership role. "We have to see if the Steinbrenner philosophy of old is the Steinbrenner philosophies of the present," he said.

In other exciting news, it looks like the old Tampa braintrust is scrapping the youth movement:

http://tinyurl.com/24ashk

57 Link doesn't work

52 Sorry. Actually, I completely missed this amidst all the dead horses floating around this week:

http://tinyurl.com/2qvl7q

I guess Reggie really marches to the beat of his own drummer.

58 Sorry bout that, here it is:

http://tinyurl.com/2ephz5

And most definitely don't read this:
http://tinyurl.com/2jlxcr

Its amazing, all day, yesterday too, ALL of the ALCS coverage has been almost 100% Sox. Schilling this, Papelbon that, Beckett is a god, Manny being Manny, Youk has a chip on his shoulder for no reason etc etc etc. Not a peep about the Indians

60 Not that I put ANY credibility into that article, but heck, that article gets me excited more than anything. Resign the big guys, trade Melky, Kennedy, and Wang (won't be enough but its a start) for Santana and sign Rowand. Heck, bring up Gardner as the 4th OF, hes ready. Where do I sign up?

55 Haha, did you get that out of the LoHud comments? (Yes, I braved the storm.)

And why would the Yankees want Rowand, what with 4 pretty good OF and a decent backup in Rowand?

Who is this dude's source? I rarely trust pro writers' sources, let alone bloggers (no offense, of course).

62 Man, FTW if that happens.

62 Oh, I see. You think they'd only sign Rowand (I'm assuming he's a FA) if they lost Melky?

I'd do it, too. Replace Wang with the best pitcher in baseball. Melky's probably close to his ceiling, and Rowand (IIRC) is probably as good defensively.

OF: Damon-Rowand-Abreu
DH: Matsui
Rotation: Wang, Pettitte (hopefully), Phil, JOba, Moose.

Looks great to me.

63 no, just cruising si.com actually. I try about once a week to go to the lohud comments but my brain explodes after about 2 posts...

The trade is based on a trade for Sananta first, involving Melky...

65 You mean Santana not Wang!

"Hoping to build a foundation for a new deal, Phillies management had a recent chat with Rowand's agent, Craig Landis, and was floored to discover Rowand is seeking a six-year, $84 million contract."

http://tinyurl.com/yq36ve

Hell no, not at that price, though I'm guessing Cash could get it down to at least 48/4.

Article also says Phils will go hard after Mo.

67 Ah yes, yes, of course. We really need an edit feature.

Man, 63 is supposed to say "a decent backup in Duncan." I am sloppy right now.

Its pretty ridiculous to argue against trading Melky, Wang, Kennedy, and heck, someone else not Joba/Hughes for Santana. That is an instant upgrade of the rotation without giving up anything irreplaceable. I still don't think it would be enough, but I can dream of a big three of Santana, Hughes, and Joba can't I?

59 the little drummer boy in his head?

70 I think you've had enough, pal...

71 They'd probably bring up the Beckett trade, which was, what, Hanley + Anibal + ??? for Beckett and Lowell (who was just salary relief at the time).

I think Wang >>> Anibal + ???, and Melky + IPK is somewhat less than Hanley. Add in the fact that Santana's gone at the end of the year and I think it's reasonable.

46 To quote you:
"if one year contracts were good enough for Gil, why are they "insulting" to St. Joe?"
I said:
"since my neighbor feels cleaning cesspools is good enough for him, it's therefore good enough for you?"
Maybe I should rephrase it to:
"if cleaning cesspools was good enough for my neighbor, why it is "insulting" to You (to assume you should cleaning cesspool also).

You see, what happens to my neighbor is as relevant to you, as what happened to Gil is relavant to Torre.

This thread, and previously threads, is primerily about our feelings about the Yankee FO/Torre contract offer, and it's ramifications.

It is not about manager salaries, other managers, Gil Hodges, or any number of other stuff that has been thrown into this conversation.

OK, the trade was Beckett and Lowell for Hanley, Anibal, Guillermo Mota, and a prospect named Jesus Delgado whom I know nothing about. Mota at the time was coming off a terrible year (ERA+ = 85). Give them Bruney for all I care.

62 65 It's crazy to trade Melky.

Three of the top six 'most similar' to Melky players on Baseball-Reference are Hall of Famers (Max Carey, Roberto Clemente, Harry Heilmann). Two others (Sixto Lexcano, Chet Lemon) had an avg. career of 14 seasons with an OPS+ of 122. Only Rick Manning of CLE and MIL of the 70s was a 'bust' and he played 13 years as a very good defensive OF.

75 See 52 .

61 That was painful to read. Though thankfully, they didn't mention the Yankees "hating" him.

77 Not even for the best pitcher in baseball who's on the right side of 30?

51 "There are people claiming this? Are these voices in your head?" Beautiful. God, I wish I could be so succinct! Thanks.

77 It's certainly not crazy to trade Melky. he might develop into a decent CF, but he has shown very little power and generally regressed this year. He hasn't shown anything to really indicate he can ever be a particularly productive CF. I like Melky, and he might develop into a pretty good player, but on the other hand, when you have a chance to get Santana and line up that rotation, you do it

And obviously you don't make the trade without the extension

82 I imagine a contract would be around $20 mil for 7 years. If Zito got 18 for 7, Johan is definitely worth more than that.

Anyone watching the game? According to gameday, every single one of Fausto's pitches have actually been in the strike zone but most haven't been called, that true?

And it also has both hits being infield hits, hmm

Looking pretty crappy in Boston right now.

looking ugly quick in Fenway. Somehow Carmona comes unglued vs the Sox but not the Yanks...of course

I love Melky's arm, and I think he might be slightly above average on D, but I don't see him ever being above an .800 OPS guy. I'm not sure where an .800 OPS places him compared to the MLB average. I guess I'm used to better hitting CFs.

BIG K there....

Oh god I hate JD Drew

Well, thats pretty much the ball game in Boston. Sigh

84 For the most part, yes.

Did Carmona forget how to throw his sinker?

Typical. Wedge's managing in game 5 looks a whole lot worse now, and a matchup of westbrook vs dice0k is anyones guess. Not looking good for Clevelans

Carmona can only pitch againts the Yankees.

What a joke. This game.

96 What a joke. Carmona.

93 He has forgotten how to throw it for strikes

Carmona is having a case of the Wangs

93 He just wasn't throwing it for strikes often enough...still isn't, actually. He looked good for two batters, and that sinker is nasty...but he got really burned when he went to 3-1 vs Drew and had to put a cookie out there.

Carmona can only pitch with bugs all over his face.

Anyone who gives up a HR vs Drew, let alone a postseason GS, ain't right. This is JD freaking drew. DO Sox fans try to pretend they didn't kill him all year now?

I hope Cleveland takes the lead so all the Boston fans on that other thread start talking about books again.

Martinez and Wedge are right, many of those pitches should have been called strikes.

god, this is frustrating ... it's not like The Schrill has got anything ... but who has any faith that Carmona's not gonna keep spitting up runs?

104 He was definitely squeezed on a few pitches, but the batters did a good job laying off some tough pitches as well. There was definitely a questionable pitch to Drew in the sequence before the HR.

95 I still think teams/players get up more against the Yanks than other teams.

All the innigs for Sabathia and even carmona (who was in the pen last year) has to be catching up with them.

102 Of course, they will think their booing him inspired him, until he strikes out looking again.

Just please don't let Schilling pitch a great game.

Hopefully the Carmona can settle down and the Indians can continue to chip away

The Indians are really screwed if they can't get to Schilling before the fifth or sixth inning. Carmon's pitch count is way up, and to burn their bullpen tonight with Westbrook up tomorrow is a recipe for disaster.

How is it possible for youk to hit to ground ball infield hits to ss?

110 It was in the hole

111 That's what...nah, too easy.

And the Indians are about to waste a golden opportunity to chip away...gross

Hafner is due, he has been useless in the PS other than that EI hit against us

mlb gameday as the ump's strike calls all over the place

Yup, if the Indians are going to win, its pretty bad to waste 1st and 2nd with no outs and the top of your lineup coming up. Dreadful

114 And he just blew it. Martinez gets to lead off an inning again...nuts.

How did we lose to the Indians? They suck.

Hafner has really been awful, which is surprising b/c hes so good. Just bad year all along...

This game is def. going to be one of "those" games

82 I wouldn't do that deal.

First, let's look at the relatively "sure" things:

Santana according to team win stats like Win Shares and VORP would be worth roughly 3 wins more than Wang.

Santana will cost $140 million over seven years.
Rowand will cost at least $60 million over 5 years and is entering his age 30 season.

More "unknown factors"
Wang has a low, but increasing, strikeout rate; he seems to have thwarted the predictions so far.
Cabrera is very young and easily could still develop.
Kennedy is not a power pitcher,but he could be another Wang.

Is sacrificing all of that worth the sure monetary cost and 3-4 extrra wins of Santana/Rowand?

I think no.

Cabrera has

118 Our ace blew up twice.

120 Kennedy is a very different pitcher than Wang.

Virgin-tight zone tonight...

Those of you watching on TV,

Is Carmona blindfolded?

Cleveland has to chip away at this lead while stopping the Red Sox. This adds an extra dimension to this game for me. The Yankees have not been able to chip away at a lead in the post-season since 2001. It would be nice to see another team do it.

124 No, but I guess he wishes he was...

Well, with the Indians failing to capitalize, and Carmona blowing up again, looks like game 7 looms, and we all know what will happen there...Amazing how one game can swing things so much

125 Game 7, 2003 ALCS?

125 What about game 3?

Carmona pulling a Wang....just dreadful. Weird to see a guy with such great stuff spit the bit so horribly.

130 "Carmona pulling a Wang"

see 112

131 Ha...sorry, my mind wasn't working when I said that. Seems like we saw more of that around here when we had good old RJ.

What the hell is wrong with Cleveland!

Gracias por nada...

118 Joe wasn't motivated...

If you ask the dipshit accountants who now run the Yanks.

I only bothered to watch the game because my family put it on for friends of my daughter that are over. Thankfully, they switched the channel as soon as the friends left.

All I can say is...Go Rockies.

Well... this game is done. If you are Wedge, do you have a strategy for the rest of this game looking towards Game 7?

122 Zack, you're absolutely right. I looked at his numbers and I didn't realize how good Kennedy's strikeout rates were this year. That makes my argument even stronger that this would be a very bad deal for the Yanks.

One stud pitcher (like Santana) would not be worth the extra money and losing Wang. The Yankees have to lose that "Randy Johnson" one post-season mentality.

10 freaking runs! Damn, the Indians.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot is wrong with the Injuns?

137 Wedge isn't motivated... and his pay should be cut...

if you ask the dipshit accountants now running the Yanks.

That last sentence should have read:

One stud pitcher (like Santana) would not be worth the extra money and losing Wang. The Yankees have to lose that "Randy Johnson" one stud pitcher post-season mentality.

141 In a way, I find it perversely satisfying to see a high payroll Red Sox team doing what the high payroll Yankees should have been doing over the last six years.

Yes, but if the Yankees had been trading for Randy Johnson at the age and skill level that Santana is now, it would have been a different story. But that argument is for another time.

Right now, I am heading out so I don't have to think about how pathetic the showing by the Indians the last two days has been. Just pathetic. I guess playing in Fenway seemingly all the time has helped the Yanks ignore its somehow magical effects, but it sure seems that every other teem is terrified of the place.

143 and it's mostly because Francona took a cut in pay, and was finally motivated by postseason incentives...

or am I thinking of somebody else?

Oh well, save Mastny and Betancourt for tomorrow, I guess. The only thing to pray for (as far as miracles go) is for Westbrook to make it 3 to 4 innings, have Byrd stifle them again for 2 to 3 more, and get to Dice K somehow.

Again, go Rockies.

If the Red Sox pulls out this series, they will put a beat down on the Rockies. Ugh. I'll not be watching ESPN for weeks.

145 from the great Cot's baseball contracts site:

Terry Francona Manager
2 years/$4.05M (2007-08)

* signed extension 3/06
o $0.65M bonus at signing ($1.25M total for 06)
o 07:$1.65M, 08:$1.75M
o bonuses for making playoffs, winning LDS, LCS, World Series

Note that there is an interesting bonus clause in there (in addition to a $1.65 million salary for 2007. I don't know... whatever his compensation, Francona seems to know what he's doing, unlike St. Joe over the last six years.

DARY (dipshit accountants now running the Yanks). Official BB Acronym?

As much as I'd like to see the Rox sweep, I'd rather it go 7 so Cash has more time to extend Arod.

148 Um, he didn't make the playoffs last year. The team with the second highest payroll in the game finished behind the Blue Jays.

OK SORRY forgive me, enough Joe talk!

148 Francona's amazing. Red Sox have made the postseason 1 year in a row, and look at 'em go!

At last the formula has been discovered!

Paycuts and postseason incentives all around!

152 I don't know about you, but I would gladly trade that inspiring performance that the Yankees put on against the Tigers last year (even the A-Rod as 8th place hitter shtick!) for the Red Sox' chances at the moment.

I'm sure you were singing that tune when Boston had lost 3/4 to Cleveland just like the Yankees did.

152 The first baseball blog-type thing I ever read was Sons of Sam Horn. They call Francona 'Francoma' and are repeatedly saying somebody should put a mirror under his nose to see if he's alive, let along managing. I guess the grass is always greener.

153 Then be a Red Sox fan, if you aren't already...

though I can't think of one good reason why a Red Sox fan would be Bronx Bantering at this moment.

155 Sorry, man, I wasn't serious.
Francona seems like an okay guy, but the BoSox can have him forever.

Honestly, once the bitterness I'm feeling dissipates, I'll warmly, and happily embrace the next manager as long as it's not Valentine, nor LaRussa, nor anyone like them.

156 I'm not a Red Sox fan, but I am convinced that any manager (Francona or, say, Dave Miley) would be a better (or as good as a) choice to manage the team than St. Joe.

I love the Yankees much more than any individual that inhabits the uniform (e.g. Torre) and I hate what has happened to the Yankees over the past six years.

Who do you love -- St. Joe or the Yankees?

By the way, I hate Bush-Schilling, Beckett, and Youk, but, at least, Bush-Shilling, Beckett, and Youk have consistently proven themselves in the big games and I have to give them credit for that. Someone compared Youk to Paul O'Neill (I can understand why non-Yankee fans hated O'Neill).

158 Okay, apparently I still need to vent.

First, it's not St. Joe, at least not in reference to Joe Torre, the guy who has ruined your Yankee-loving life these past six seasons, as you root root rooted for the spectacular array of pitchers he has had, misused, and ruined at his disposal -- not to mention every last one of the $30-million dollar per year super-clutch sluggers he has betrayed, insulted, driven into therapy, and forced to commit adultry.

But to answer your silly question: I love Joe Torre, and hate how the Yankees treated him this week, and right now I wonder how long that hate is going to last.

159 Then, why waste time conversing with idiot Joe Torre fans? You should start writing your Youk-eeography, and sneer at footage of O'Neill doing things that annoy you so much.

Unbelievable, dude. Now, say something derisive about Bernie. Make it a home run, and you'll only be a single short of hitting for the cycle against me tonight.

158 Actually, I love you more because YOU LOVE THE YANKEES MUCH MORE THAN ANY INDIVIDUAL THAT INHABITS THE UNIFORM!
Fuck you very much Derek.
Fuck you very much Jorge.
Fuck you very much Mariano.
Fuck you very much, you greedy bastard Joe Torre.
AND Fuck you very much all you Non-Red Sox Yankee veteren non-clutch choking assholes.

Have I watched too much Kung Fu, or is there something very wrong with some of the comments here?

161 I think you may have misread 159 . Doesn't look like he took a shot @ O'Neill.

163 Look, you might be right.

That's enough crap outta me.

Nothing personal, jonm. It was the bitterness talking. Sorry, everybody.

161 162 Guys, don't bother. I know we all miss baseball, but look at what this dude posts on Was Watching and over here, and you'll know right away it's not worth the effort.

I'm happy to discuss -- even beat dead horses -- with someone who can see more than one point of view even while we disagree. The last few days though, there have been too many people who envision themselves as the one-eyed king in the land of the blind.

I don't really want to get involved, but I'd like to say that though I am the biggest Yankee fan I know, I just can't see myself loving them (or anyone else here) more than Jeter, whose only dream since birth was playing SS for them. Or even Jose Molina, who has on multiple occasions described what a happy family the team is.

Jeez louise, can you imagine if the bugs had just laid off Joba? We wouldn't all be turning on each other, our former manager, our FO, and now our players.

166 is very poorly worded. I don't think anyone here, myself included, loves the Yankees more than guys like Jeter or Molina do.

164 It's all in good fun.

What I was saying is Youk has played the role of Red Sox' a--hole in the same way that O'Neill played that role, brilliantly, for the Yankees. I love O'Neill and I've come to think that his retirement hurt the Yankees far more than the loss of his statistical numbers. I guess I've come to see, by God, what a player like O'Neill can add to a team's chemistry -- a rare phenomenon that I never would admit before. Where's the Yankee's replacement for paul O'Neill -- certainly not Torre (with his comfortable lunches and tasty dinners) and sadly not Jeter.

I've just been frustrated with what Torre's lack of work ethic (which Buster Olney bizarreley cites as praise), and the Yankee's repeated post-season failures, has meant for the team.

168 Kevin Brown? Randy Johnson? With the way he whines about the strike zone, Mike Mussina?

165 A cheap shot.

If you can't address specifics, then what good is that post. I can certainly acknowledge my mistakes. Just earlier tonight, I admittted that I was wrong about Ian Kennedy's potential.

I do strongly believe that is was time to move on, re Torre, and, I will stick by that belief. Personally, I find ALDS eliminations more painful than regular season eliminations. When ALDS eliminations occur, the crap shoot excuse is always used and the organization doesn't seem to address fundamental problems. I hate the post-2000 Yankee era (it reminds me of the "best record of the 80s" teams), if we can't have the 50's era back, can we at least have the 70's era Yankees back?

Perhaps the only Yankee thing I'm sure of right now is: this transition is a lot more noisy, messy, and smelly than I was prepared for.

I'll cop to being the type who tends to lean on old familiar ways (as Paul Simon sang), but even if I was already ready to embrace the change, there's no denying there are a lot of bad feelings here going forward.

The Yanks are still crazy after all these years.

169 Pitchers don't count. What I miss is an everyday player like O'Neill. He never seemed to give an "Aw shucks, we played our best' excuse.

I would love it if O'Neill would take a spot on the coaching staff. Hell, I'd be thrilled with O'Neill as manager. I don't like my Yankees as a privileged social club...and I just see that as the orientation we've had over the last few years.

170 What fundamental problems? ARod's GIDP (game 5, 2005 ALDS) against K-Rod? The Tigers pitching staff? Wang spitting the bit twice? Midges?

It's a crapshoot, it was a crapshoot when the Yanks were winning as well.

The organization addressed the problems; after the collapse of 2004, RJ, Pavano & Wright were brought in. They needed a CF'er, Damon was brought on board. Sheffield and Matsui go down, Abreu and Cabrera are brought in and called up, respectively. Whenever they needed _______ they went out and got whatever it was they needed. Sometimes the moves work, sometimes they don't.

172 Oh, then that would be Gary Sheffield. Maybe Jorge Posada...

172 Who said, "Aw shucks?" Last I checked Manny played for the Sox (guess they aren't all a bunch of winners).

Roger Clemens and Derek Jeter are probably the most excuse-hating athletes I've seen since Michael Jordan.

172 Do the Yankees risk becoming a privileged social club if they retain the third baseman with a salary in excess of $30 million dollars?

It's worth noting that your Yanks 2008-> are run by two privileged brothers, and their dipshit accountants.

173 Better clarify; Pavano, Womack, & Wright were going to hurt more than help, but I guess the organization gets an "E" for effort.

Lots of good feedback here. I really appreciate having the opportunity to communicate with core Yankee fans.

I'll acknowledge that bad luck (midges, Wang) killed the team this year.

173 You're right. All of those were terrible decisions. Also, the Yankees have had unusuallalyy bad luck with their decisions regarding starting pitchers. Players like Weaver, Vazquez, and Johnson/Brown should have been better.

176 I think that A-Rod is indeed hungry. He needs a psychiatrist and a good manager to channel his talents. If they let him go, barring a miracle deal for Miguel Cabrera or two deals for ARamirez and a first baseman, they won't compete next year.

I think its about over in Careyville. I don't trust Jake Westbrook in that ballpark at all.

Wow, did you guys know Jose Reyes has a below-average career OPS? And to think Derek Jeter was somehow voted most overrated player. I guess he doesn't make "things" happen in the batter's box.

141 "if you ask the dipshit accountants now running the Yanks."

149 "DARY (dipshit accountants now running the Yanks"

176 "run by two privileged brothers, and their dipshit accountants. "

This could get old quickly...