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Picking Up The Pieces
2007-10-19 14:09
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Joe Torre held a press conference at the Rye Town Hilton in Rye Brook, New York at 2pm today. At 4:30 he spoke by phone with Mike and the Mad-Dog on WFAN. From those two appearances as well as the Yankees' official conference call on Thursday, I've been able to piece together the following sequence of events leading to Joe Torre's departure from the team.

In both of his appearances, Torre stressed a need for trust and commitment from the organization and said on WFAN that he felt that trust and commitment begin to disappear following the Yankees' 2004 ALCS loss to the Red Sox, saying, "from that time on, it started going downhill."

Confirming the tone of his press conference after Game 4 of this year's ALDS and the reports of the mood in the clubhouse that night, Torre said that he did indeed assumed that night that he had managed his final game for the Yankees. However, the lack of news from the team in the week that followed led him to believe there was a chance he could keep his job.

General Manager Brian Cashman contacted Torre a few days before the actual offer was made and told him there would indeed be an offer forthcoming, but that it would involve a pay cut.

On Wednesday evening, Cashman told Torre by phone what the actual offer was: one year, $5 million, with million-dollar incentives for making the postseason, the ALCS, and the World Series for a maximum total of $8 million.

Torre traveled to Tampa with Cashman the next morning with the intention of negotiating with the team (though Cashman did tell him that, in Torre's words, "he felt that this offer was it, that there was no wiggle room in it"), or at the very least coming to a face-to-face understanding with the organization. Torre's main goal was to get the team to look beyond this year's playoff loss to his twelve-year record of success. Among the arguments he was determined to make were that none of the last five World Series Champions made the postseason the year after winning the title, something the Yankees did all four times they won the World Series under Torre, and that the Yankees were the only team to make the postseason in both 2006 and 2007.

In Tampa, where it is assumed he met with the same group who took part in the conference call (Cashman, team president Randy Levine, COO Lonn Trost, George Steinbrenner--who was not on the conference call--his sons Hank and Hal, and his son-in-law Felix Lopez), it was immediately made clear to him that the offer was indeed non-negotiable, at which point Torre officially declined it. Torre said that his arguments were "dismissed real quickly. At that point I realized that it was the offer or nothing, so at that point is when I said goodbye. . . . There really was no negotiation involved. I was hoping there would be, but there wasn't." The meeting lasted about 20 minutes, according to Torre.

Torre wanted a two-year deal that would have shown a commitment to keeping him as a manager rather than what he saw as a lame duck. "It's not totally money. It's commitment, and commitment is a two-way street. . . . I think players put undo pressure on themselves when they think they have to save the manager's job. That's the type of pressure I've tried to take out of the clubhouse. . . . Two years would have opened the door for further discussion, but it just never happened."

He also "took exception" to the incentive clauses, which he "took as an insult," and the suggestion that they were required as "motivation," said he "resented" that he would have to accomplish certain things to get back the money taken away from his base salary, saw it as "a punishment." "If someone is reducing your salary, it tells you they're not satisfied with the job you're doing. . . . I didn't need to be reminded that getting to the World Series is what this organization is all [about]. And that this may make you try harder . . . that insulted me, there's no question. . . . It was a generous offer, but it still wasn't the type of commitment of trying to do something together instead of, 'Let's see what you can do for me.'"

It was widely assumed on Thursday that the Yankees' offer was designed precisely so that Torre would reject it, allowing the organization to save face by framing Torre's departure as his own decision. Most saw through that immediately, as did Torre, who would have preferred that the team told him flatly and immediately that they didn't want him back. "I think that would have been a lot more honest," he said on WFAN. Torre said he began Thursday's meeting by asking if the team really wanted him back. They said yes, but he clearly didn't believe them. "If someone wanted me to be managing here, I'd be managing here."

Torre said he did believe that Brian Cashman wanted him back, but was unsure if anyone else did. He said he had a mutual respect with George Steinbrenner, but never had any direct dealings with Randy Levine.

One of the more telling moments in Torre's press conference was when he indicated that he believed that George Steinbrenner's statement during the ALDS and the fact that The Record's Ian O'Connor was able to reach him by phone was orchestrated by the organization. Francesa and Russo pointed their fingers squarely at team president Randy Levine as the man who orchestrated the Steinbrenner statement. Francesa, an unapologetic Yankee fan, was particularly virulent, painting Levine as an interloper from the business side of the organization who is attempting to thrust himself into the power vacuum in the Yankees' front office. It was Levine who announced the offer and Torre's decision in the conference call yesterday, and it is believed that it was Levine who led the movement to get rid of Torre. Francesa called for Levine to be fired, saying that Levine, who joined the team in 2000 after Torre had already won three World Series and was on his way to a fourth, is exploiting his role in the plans for the new stadium to insert himself into the baseball side of the organization despite a lack of knowledge about the game.

Finally, though Torre handled the himself with his usual class, dignity, honesty, emotional openness, and humor today, it's telling that he refused to say that he'd be willing to come back for any ceremonial purposes. Pressed on that point by Francesa and Russo he said, "all of a sudden you just have the feeling that they don't want you around, and the way it was done, it's going to take some time."

Comments (216)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-19 15:55:38
1.   yankz
Boy, did that backfire on the "Tampa Trio" as Pete affectionately dubbed them. Save for a few vocal people on the internet, whose voices the Trio will never hear, everybody seems to be on Joe's side (other managers, the MSM, I believe a majority of fans, etc.).
2007-10-19 16:14:37
2.   weeping for brunnhilde
Sweeny on WFAN is talking about the likelihood of Mattingly taking up the reins.

Evidently Steinbrenner's expressed that he wants to see Mattingly manage before he dies.

2007-10-19 16:23:00
3.   rilkefan
0 "Torre wanted a two-year deal that would have shown a commitment to keeping him as a manager rather than what he saw as a lame duck."

What does that mean? He wanted an open-ended commitment that he could walk away from when he felt like it?

Also, from the above it doesn't sound as if he presented an alternative - that is, there was no negotiation in part because he didn't negotiate.

1 I thought the NY press was being "even-handed".

2007-10-19 16:24:29
4.   rbj
"Francesa called for Levine to be fired, saying that Levine, who joined the team in 2000 after Torre had already won three World Series and was on his way to a fourth, is exploiting his role in the plans for the new stadium to insert himself into the baseball side of the organization despite a lack of knowledge about the game."

I have an ugly feeling that we may see the bad old 1980s again.

I don't mind so much that Torre is gone, just the way it was handled.

2007-10-19 16:26:46
5.   yankz
4 Yeah. Agreed. Ironically, someone like Torre might be needed to prevent a huge mess.

It seems to me like all the "Fuck Torre!" people are confusing bringing him back with letting him go respectfully.

2007-10-19 16:26:48
6.   ms october
1 Yes, but Randy Levine is (deservedly so) coming off as the real culprit.
Pete Abe is reporting that Cash has reached out to Mattingly, Girardi, and Tony Pena - wanted to talk to Trey Hillman but it was too late.
I wondered last week if the holdup was that the Yanks did not want to announce Torre would not be coming back without having a replacement to name at the same time. But obviously it was/is a 2 step process.
2007-10-19 16:27:32
7.   jonm
So basically, given Joe's logic, the only contract offer that he would have accepted was a two-year $15 million contract with him holding recurring $7.5 options.

You can't blame the Yankees for not wanting to give him that.

2007-10-19 16:28:19
8.   yankz
Pete: "Just spoke to Brian Cashman. He said he reached out today to three candidates to become manager: Joe Girardi, Don Mattingly and Tony Pena."

From his post it appears that Cash has plenty of power and is doing what he needs to, which is reassuring.

2007-10-19 16:29:10
9.   ms october
4 I don't think that is the way it played out - Torre wanted to negotiate (and he suggested broadly some terms) - FO did not.
5 Agree fully - thanks for putting the last sentence out there.
2007-10-19 16:32:29
10.   jonm
5 When have the Yankees ever (even before Steinbrenner) let go of a manager respectfully? In fact, if you look over the course of baseball history, the number of "repectful" managerial firings is tiny.
2007-10-19 16:35:39
11.   yankz
10 So because something shitty happened once, it should happen again. Got it.

Torre never once disgraced the organization. Even after feeling insulted, he acted with class. I guess it's too much to expect the same from everyone else.

If they wanted him back, why not negotiate for, I don't know, half a g-damn hour? If they didn't want him back, why not just say that?

2007-10-19 16:45:11
12.   rilkefan
5 'It seems to me like all the "Fuck Torre!" people'

This is straw.

"are confusing bringing him back with letting him go respectfully"

This is begging the question.

11 "Torre never once disgraced the organization"

"Disgraced" is a pretty sad standard. Even so I thought the A-Rod interview ('A-Rod twisted his wedding ring' as I recall) last year was disgraceful.

2007-10-19 16:52:49
13.   yankz
12 Straw- your opinion- maybe "Fuck Torre!" offended you, in which case, lighten up. I meant the people who keep repeating that the Yankees didn't owe Torre anything, etc. That's fine, not many people are still disputing that.

What, question, exactly, is being begged?

I haven't heard a single person say Torre should have been brought back today. I've only heard something like, "If they wanted him back, why not negotiate for, I don't know, half a g-damn hour? If they didn't want him back, why not just say that? "

And the Arod thing- yeah, that's a huge strike against him as a manager- which, as I explained above, is not the argument. You might think that's a offense worth firing him over. Not the issue at hand. Does it justify offering him a contract they knew he would reject, with no intention of negotiating with him? Not in my book. If that's what they wanted, they should have, as Torre said, just told him. Is it really that unreasonable?

2007-10-19 16:54:22
14.   Max
3 He wanted a situation where he wouldn't be perceived to be fighting for incentives and his job, and having that pressure carry over to the players. The press is bad enough without having that hanging over the team's heads. What is hard to understand about that?

This is not the same as "an open-ended commitment" (talk about straw) -- it is simply a request for a sincere gesture from management regarding their desire to have him manage the team.

2007-10-19 17:04:27
15.   jonm
13 If they wanted him back, why not negotiate for, I don't know, half a g-damn hour?

What's to negotiate if he would only accept a contract like the one I detailed in 7 ? That is what logically follows from what he said today.

2007-10-19 17:06:22
16.   jonm
14 Okay, and a "sincere gesture" according to Torre would have been a two-year $15 million contract. Even then, imagine the suffering of the Yankee players in that second year when Joe would have been a lame-duck.
2007-10-19 17:06:26
17.   yankz
15 Which is exactly why I think the Yankees didn't want him back.
2007-10-19 17:07:11
18.   yankz
17 in the first place, I mean.
2007-10-19 17:13:15
19.   yankz
Bowa, Stottlemyre to join Mariners coaching staff. http://tinyurl.com/35xxho

Damn shame, I like Bowa as the 3rd base/IF coach. If Pena doesn't get the job, I can see him leaving too.

2007-10-19 17:17:58
20.   rilkefan
13 "I meant the people"

Then saying that instead of something else emotional would have been helpful.

17 "Which is exactly why I think the Yankees didn't want him back."

They apparently didn't want him back on the only terms he would accept. Making an offer that was in his words "generous" that wasn't precisely what he wanted isn't disrepectful per se. Not offering him a lame-duck-free job isn't disrespectful period.

2007-10-19 17:18:44
21.   RZG
7 Where did you get the "two-year $15 million contract with him holding recurring $7.5 options" from?

From what I heard from the press conference and his interview on the FAN I remember saying he would want more than a 1 year commitment. Nothing about recurring options, and nothing about salary.

I get it that you don't like how Torre handled this, there's no need for you to make up things to try to strengthen your argument.

2007-10-19 17:19:31
22.   wsporter
3 At his news conference two things were presented: 1. The Yankees' offer was characterized as a "take it or leave it proposal" made to Mr. Torre and 2. Mr. Torre presented the Yankees a counter offer that related a different term or length of contract that was either not considered or was rejected out of hand.

He did not describe the counter offer he presented. However the impression was clearly given that it was not open ended as to length. It was clear that Mr. Torre did not care to serve as a one year 'lame duck'. It is also clear that he is acting with far more style and grace than many of his supporters and detractors; then again he always has.

2007-10-19 17:19:41
23.   rilkefan
That's a "probably" on Bowa. Bummer if correct.
2007-10-19 17:24:23
24.   yankz
20 It wasn't my emotion I was expressing, it was my perception of a few others. I didn't even direct it at anyone here. Like I said, lighten up. Also, if it offended you, I apologize.

I don't think the Yankees wanted him back at all. I think they made him an offer they knew he would turn down just so they could say, "Hey, we tried!" That's how I see it, and that's how Joe sees it. I guess you see it differently. That's the disrespect- not being up front about it, and expecting him not to see through their crap (again, how I imagine Joe felt. Also, "disrespect" is subjective, see the end of the last thread.)

(BTW, that's that for me.)

2007-10-19 17:28:46
25.   jonm
21 Here's a quote from Cliff's summary above:
"If someone is reducing your salary, it tells you they're not satisfied with the job you're doing."

Torre made $7.5 million in 2007. Anything less would be not showing a commitment, apparently.

RECURRING OPTION bit: Torre laments the pernicious effects on players having to play under a "lame duck" manager. Even with a two year contract, Torre would have been a lame duck in the second year. Pity the poor suffering of the Yankee players in 2009 (when Torre is a lame duck). Maybe Torre's 2007 lame duck status is really why they started out 21-29 this year.

2007-10-19 17:28:56
26.   rilkefan
22 "At his news conference two things were presented" (emphasis added)

Re 2), I was relying on 0 , from which I didn't get that impression.

13 "Does it justify offering him a contract they knew he would reject"

They didn't know he would reject it. They were willing to pay him more than any other manager next year and he said no.

2007-10-19 17:29:21
27.   marc
it seems like the Torre haters here and elsewhere should be thrilled they're getting what they asked for. Besides a return to manager and team turbulence, Mo, Posada, Petite and others now in full free agent mode which would not have been the case before yesterday.
2007-10-19 17:31:06
28.   fgasparini
I'm sure others have made this point--but Bernie took an $11 MILLION pay cut to play in 2006. And he had a lot more to do with 4 rings than Torre.
2007-10-19 17:31:24
29.   fgasparini
And Bernie also took a one year deal.
2007-10-19 17:35:13
30.   rilkefan
24 "It wasn't my emotion I was expressing, it was my perception of a few others. I didn't even direct it at anyone here. Like I said, lighten up. Also, if it offended you, I apologize."

Umm, I totally don't care, I just mistakenly thought you were following the usual convention of by default discussing views expressed on the blog you're commenting at and thought your formulation wasn't helpful. If there's someone somewhere about whom 'It seems to me like all the "Fuck Torre!" people are confusing bringing him back with letting him go respectfully' applies it's not my concern.

2007-10-19 17:35:45
31.   yankz
27 Dude, Andy's a pretty tall and heavy guy.
2007-10-19 17:36:26
32.   OldYanksFan
3 I'm not sure because the language is very complicated, but I believe what Torre was trying to say was that he "wanted a two-year deal that would have shown a commitment to keeping him as a manager rather than what he saw as a lame duck"

English is your first language, yes?

Would you please tell me what part of that statement says something to that fact that he wanted an "open-ended commitment that he could walk away from when he felt like it"

They offered him one year. He asked for 2.
I am not an English major but I believe that would be considered as "an alternative" and possibly construed as opening a "negotiation"

I'm sorry if I sound cruel, it's been a bad few days. But quite honestly, I am staggered by the fact the someone is so skewed by their hatred of Torre, that an otherwise intelligent, well educated person can not accurately interpret a single, simply sentence.

2007-10-19 17:36:47
33.   wsporter
26 I understand that. I saw that was missing from Cliff's wrap up. However, I thought you'd rather rely on some facts rather than your own admittedly uninformed impression.
2007-10-19 17:37:52
34.   Will Weiss
0 Levine was also one of the "middle men" Gary Sheffield hinted at a year ago but wouldn't name. ... 24 I agree. A one-year take-it-or-leave it offer, even if he was being pitched a raise, is not a way to treat someone who has provided 12 years of service. The fact that the organization gave the flat offer and immediately rejected Torre's proposal says, "Thanks for the time. You were great for a time, but that time has passed."
2007-10-19 17:41:29
35.   fgasparini
"it's been a bad few days"

If you're having a bad couple of days because Torre is no longer the manager, take two Valium and log on in the morning. You'd think Torre was the only manager who ever won a World Series.

I'm not a Torre hater, but I'm not sorry to see him go. I think the one thing that's become clear is that Joe is an incredible manager--of his own image.

2007-10-19 17:41:43
36.   Will Weiss
34 Re: the Levine item, it was Levine's name that came up as one of the middle men in conversations I had with people close to the situation at the time. Sheff isn't exactly a credible source, but given much of what's gone on regarding baseball matters and the reported details of Levine's place in that aspect of the business, it's not farfetched.
2007-10-19 17:42:24
37.   fgasparini
34 see 28 . Everyone seems to have gotten over Bernie leaving, though.
2007-10-19 17:42:44
38.   SF Yanks
19 Ugh! I really liked Bowa as our 3rd base coach. I'm not liking where things are headed at this point.
2007-10-19 17:44:00
39.   OldYanksFan
I thought the WFAN interview was beautiful. I found myself getting very emotional.
Simply put, Joe Torre is just an absolute Mensch.

He admits that looking back, he should have argued for a delay during BugGate. He says (proudly) how brave and composed Joba was, that he forgot 'how young' he was, and he should have "PUT HIS ARM AROUND THE KID".

He explains his thinking and choices, never gets defensive, reflects and reconsiders his decisions. He never trashes anyone else, even someone who has trashed him, even if they deserve to be trashed. He is straight, honest, not aloof and above all human in the way he speaks. If only we could find a politician with these qualities.

GOD! I AM GOING TO MISS THIS MAN!

2007-10-19 17:45:43
40.   fgasparini
Hey! I had a thought. What if the new manager and coaches are better at their jobs than Torre et al?

Could happen, could happen.

This is far less bad than what happened to the pitching staff in 2003-2004.

2007-10-19 17:46:20
41.   fgasparini
"never trashes anyone else"

A-Rod.

2007-10-19 17:46:32
42.   monkeypants
Anothr thread which has devolved into oversimplified good gus-bad guys "analysis." I looks like both sides were intransigent in the "negotiations." Torre felt that things had gone downhill since 2004, so he obviously already expected the worst. He obviously was unwilling to accept anything less than two years, and seems also unwilling to have accepted any cut in pay or incentives.

The FO/ownership (whoever we think is behind this) probably HAS been frustrated since 2004. They seem unwilling to offer more than one year, instead taking a "show me first" stance.

Neither side budged from their initial positions. In this circumstance, the "decision" fell on Torre, and he chose to say no.

Was this all orchestrated from the beginning? If one tends to champion Torre and/or dislike the ownership, then the starting assumption is to be sympathetic to Torre's "side," and think this was all a sham. If one is less obliging to Torre's side of the story, then he or she will b more willing to see the offer as legitimate.

There will likely never be a solution to the debate, unless Cashman (or whover) writes a book and admits, "yeah, we really cornered the old guy." Until then, we'll all go around in circles on the issue.
====
On a related note, however, someone else posted here that coahing firings are rarely not messy--this is particularly true when long-time coaches are not brought back. There is alomost no way a Laundry or a Stengel can be fired/not renewed without one or both sides looking bad. I am not validated or justifying anyone's actions, but I am not convinced that this messy break up signals a return to the "bad old days" because I'm not sure it could have played out much differently.

2007-10-19 17:46:33
43.   yankz
37 How could they have let Bernie go more respectfully? He was clearly done, IMO.
2007-10-19 17:48:10
44.   wsporter
39 OYF, Amen brother.
2007-10-19 17:48:34
45.   rbj
fgasparini, Bernie also in 2005 had an OPS+ of 85, following 107 & 108, which followed a 141. He was in a serious decline. Torre was still getting the team to the PS.

And yes a $5 mil base salary + $3 mil incentives is a huge step up for every other manager -- but $5 mil was only 2/3 of Torre's current salary. You can't view as anything other than a slap at Torre. It's not like that $2.5 mil is going to make or break the organization.

Personally I think there was some other things going on behind the scenes. Joe did mention that he only dealt with Brian -- not Randy or Hank & Hal or anyone else.

If they didn't want Joe back, all they need to say was "Joe, we'll always think of you as a Yankee, you've been a credit to the organization, #6 is going to be retired and we want you back to hang your plaque in the new stadium. However, we've decided to go in a different direction."

2007-10-19 17:49:19
46.   yankz
Some reactions from other New Yorkers:

http://tinyurl.com/2amryj

2007-10-19 17:50:21
47.   yankz
"Tim Werler, 34, head surveyor on the new Yankee Stadium site, said, "It's time for Torre to go. Go already. He's old, the players are old. Young blood will win us a new championship.""

Yeah, because it's that easy.

2007-10-19 17:50:40
48.   Max
FWIW, I'm not one of those that want to spin the hamster wheel on "Torre's a victim!" "Torre's a greedy liar!". Torre wasn't owed anything and if the Yankees felt his time was gone and a change was necessary, then so be it.

But they should have just fired him if they were unhappy, and done it quickly. It is funny how many people defend the right of businesspeople to take their time in achieving consensus, presumably because this yields the best possible decision under difficult circumstances.

I've worked in corporate America for many years, and my read of this situation is that it illustrates where consensus can fail or yield a highly suboptimal result -- when the decision is compromised and transparent in its motives, when "corporatespeak" is used to gloss over sensitive situations, and when the human element isn't adequately taken into consideration.

In other words, it shouldn't have taken so long to come up with such a half-assed offer, and the words "sometimes people need to be motivated" should never have been uttered. You don't want the old guy around any longer, fine, but show some respect.

2007-10-19 17:51:57
49.   sunny615
someone needs to start a FIRERANDYLEVINE website...

That man is an ass!

2007-10-19 17:53:07
50.   fansince77
Love Torre- incredibly class guy. Not to minimize or simplify but: It's time for him to go,it IS time for Yanks to move on in a different direction. He kills bullpens and that has been a big problem. I still vividly remembering the day, driving to work and hearing Mike and the Maddog RANTING FURIOUSLY about the Buck Showalter firing...his predecesor- Joe Torre. No gaurantees but in retrospect we all now know that Torre was the right thing. Again- God Love Torre- he should've been offered a bullshit high paying front office job. But it is time. It is time.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-19 17:54:24
51.   rilkefan
32 "I'm sorry if I sound cruel"

No, you sound like an 8th grader.

The point of "open-ended" above was simply that you're always a lame duck if you're not the person who decides whether you'll be working in year n+1. If you look up the definition, you'll see it's clear that a lame duck cannot continue beyond n regardless. And the offer was not for one year you're out. It wasn't even two years you're out upfront afaict.

2007-10-19 17:54:26
52.   fgasparini
I'm not saying the Yankees should have treated Bernie differently. Just that nobody rent their clothes over it.
2007-10-19 17:55:28
53.   yankz
50 Has anybody disputed that?

52 Because the consensus is, that's the best they could have handled it. That's not the consensus today.

2007-10-19 17:56:33
54.   rilkefan
42 expresses my opinion well.
2007-10-19 17:57:55
55.   fgasparini
52 I see your point, I just think the consensus is wrong.
2007-10-19 17:59:40
56.   SF Yanks
55 I don't agree with yourself?
2007-10-19 18:00:49
57.   yankz
56 I think he was referring to 53 .
2007-10-19 18:01:13
58.   SF Yanks
56 What the hell did I just say?

Supposed to read:
"You don't agree with yourself?"

It was a horrible attempt at humor anyway... I'll be leaving now...

2007-10-19 18:02:13
59.   monkeypants
54 Thanks...and despite my typical raft of typos. I would love to learn to type someday...
2007-10-19 18:03:12
60.   monkeypants
58 I thought it was better the first way--very post-modern! ; )
2007-10-19 18:04:01
61.   yankz
I'll repeat what I said earlier. I think Girardi would be a good fit, and we shouldn't worry about the rumored "Death to Arms" reputation. If everyone here is wary about that, then Contreras, Cashman, and Eiland most certainly are. And if they took steps to handcuff Torre, they will definitely do the same to Girardi.

/attempt to change the direction of this thread

2007-10-19 18:04:02
62.   wsporter
48 Just curious but does anyone think that George or his bouncing baby boys Hank and Hal or Randy Levine actually value the concept of respect for another person in this context? If they do they certainly didn't display anything here that should give us the impression they do. It's going to be pretty interesting to watching these sharks disembowel each other over the next couple of years. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of people as far as I'm concerned.

Part of me is glad Mr. Torre is out of it.

2007-10-19 18:05:32
63.   yankz
62 Well, the last few years saw some changes (Cashman coming to power, Stick coming back, Oppenheimer and Contreras displacing Connors and other Tampa cronies). I should hope that that progress (at least, it's progress IMO) will continue.
2007-10-19 18:07:27
64.   SF Yanks
60 LOL, thanks.

From Pete Abe:

Randy Levine on selecting the next manager: "That will be (Brian) Cashman's duty. He will bring the best candidate to ownership and they will decide whether that is who they want. George has always selected the manager, that hasn't changed."

On Joe Torre being "insulted" by the contract offer: "There was no intent to insult Joe, we all have tremendous respect for him. He has had incentive clauses in previous contracts with the Yankees. We were all stunned and remain stunned that he turned the deal down."

Not sure what this tells us, but nevertheless...

2007-10-19 18:09:22
65.   SF Yanks
64 Stunned my ass.
2007-10-19 18:09:59
66.   yankz
64 Makes me think Donnie will get the job. Just a hunch that Steinbrenner wants him.
2007-10-19 18:13:50
67.   wsporter
64 Apparently that's their story and they're sticking to it. I'm led to wonder how many times they'll have to repeat that story before one of them begins to feel distinctly like an idiot doing so.
2007-10-19 18:13:52
68.   Max
64 He has had incentive clauses in previous contracts with the Yankees. We were all stunned and remain stunned that he turned the deal down."

Wow, what a clown. Someone should take him aside and say the same thing I wanted to say to pre-2007 A-Rod so many times -- STFU and stop putting your foot in your mouth.

2007-10-19 18:14:50
69.   SF Yanks
66 Yeah I've heard elsewhere that The Stein Man wants him too. I'm hoping for Joe G. though because that way when they announce his name during broadcasts I can tune out after they say his first name and just pretend for a sec.....
2007-10-19 18:17:49
70.   SF Yanks
Where exactly did Levine come from anyway? How the hell did he become a part of this organization? I suppose I should go look that up somewhere. I'm not liking this character much and I'm wondering if he can be bounced out somehow.
2007-10-19 18:18:05
71.   jonm
[62} Oh yeah, respect for others is a trait that dominates all businesses (other than the Yankee ownership group, of course); in fact, it's the defining trait of capitalism.

People sentimentalize their baseball teams and forget that these teams are owned by people who do not have a tendency to follow the golden rule.

It just amazes me that people have higher standards for figures in baseball than they do for their politicians.

2007-10-19 18:19:30
72.   yankz
70 "Mr. Levine is the President of the New York Yankees. He was named to the position in January, 2000, becoming the first person to hold the post with the Yankees since 1986.
Before joining the Yankees, Mr. Levine served as New York City's Deputy Mayor for Economic Development, Planning and Administration. He also served as New York City's Labor Commissioner.
Prior to joining the mayor's office, he served as the chief labor negotiator for Major League Baseball, and in 1996 negotiated Baseball's landmark labor agreement that led to the sport's return to prominence.
Mr. Levine was born on February 22, 1955 in Brooklyn, NY. He received a Bachelor of Arts Degree from George Washington University in 1977 and his J.D. from Hofstra University School of Law in 1980. Mr. Levine and his wife Mindy, reside in Manhattan."

http://tinyurl.com/yusdx9

2007-10-19 18:20:55
73.   jonm
70
Randy Levine comes from the same man who brought us Bernard Kerik, our next president Rudy Giuliani.

http://tinyurl.com/28mr9d

2007-10-19 18:21:52
74.   Will Weiss
48 Solid post. You should check out Steve Goldman's post on the Pinstriped Blog from today. http://www.yesnetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071015&content_id=1432424&oid=36019&vkey=6
2007-10-19 18:24:06
75.   SF Yanks
72 73 Thanks for that. So basically he knows diddly squat about baseball, yet he's calling the shots with our manager(s). Glad we got him. Pfft!
2007-10-19 18:24:55
76.   rilkefan
Goldman: "Why was Cashman, supposedly Torre's friend and loyalist, a party to this? Cashman is well-respected in baseball [...]"

Maybe this is evidence that your take is wrong.

2007-10-19 18:26:23
77.   yankz
76 Torre said that Cashman wanted him back, but who knows.

Also from Goldman: "The manager's primary impact is in selecting that starter, putting together a lineup capable of having that big inning, and fostering an atmosphere of professionalism and commitment in which those things are more likely to take place. "

I feel like any clown could do the first two. I just hope Mattingly or Girardi can do the third.

2007-10-19 18:27:59
78.   ms october
72 Thanks. I was just about to google it myself. I thought I remembered reading somewhere that he was based in NY, but I was getting confused. So, it seems that the Tampa clicque (other than King George and the Princes)seems to be losing a good bit of its power.
73 Ugh. At least Hillary just pretends to be a Yankee fan - I wonder if Rudy helped Levine get this job.
2007-10-19 18:28:21
79.   OldYanksFan
19 Bowa is leaving? F*CK! (as the wall begins to crumble)
2007-10-19 18:30:53
80.   ms october
79 Maybe - He is "probably" going to the Mariners as 3rd base coach
2007-10-19 18:31:34
81.   Sliced Bread
This evening, driving home in the drizzle, listening to Joe on the FAN, I finally understood why Yogi stayed away all those years.

I never really got it until now.

That's all I have for now.

'Night all. Be well.

2007-10-19 18:37:49
82.   Max
74 Thank you, Will.

I hadn't seen Goldman's take, but I'm flattered that his take mirrors mine (when I'm capable of reasoning lucidly, which is only once in a great while). Of course, it really is just common sense...if businesspeople want to make a clean decision stripped of emotion and principles of "respect", then fine...but don't act surprised if popular opinion is negative, and the transparency of it all invites further scorn.

2007-10-19 18:45:51
83.   OldYanksFan
25 You are arguing for arguments sake. NO manager contracts go on forever. Except for the quick firings/quitings, many managers experience a 'last year'. While these last years might semantically be considered 'lame duck' years, I think the FEELINGS behind Torre's statement were pretty clear.

Argue all you want but there is a bttom line here (or 2)
1) $2m, in context, means little to Joe, and virtually nothing to a team with a $%400,000 annual nut.
2) The Yankees are a rich and powerful organization. If they wanted Torre back, and were willing to compromise/negotiate a small distance, Torre would be back.

And as a few have already pointed out, this whole thing is NOT about the money.

2007-10-19 18:50:46
84.   OldYanksFan
35 My caring for Torre has absolutely nothing to do with a World Series.
2007-10-19 18:51:46
85.   monkeypants
74 82 Goldman's articles was very good, though I do not agree with all of his conclusions. A couple of his statements are questionable, though:

"Unless the new guy gets a better offer than Torre did, such as a two-year guarantee (which would underscore the organization's true lack of interest in retaining Torre)..."

Not necessarily true.

"A change should be made when you have a better alternative, not for its own sake or because you're mad at someone."

That's just not true. If it is deemed that the current situation is so bad that ANY change holds out significant prospects for improvement, then change should be made. I'm not saying that this was the case with Torre ("he's such a bad manager that ANTONE would be an improvement..."), only that Goldman's articulation is flawed.

2007-10-19 18:52:28
86.   jonm
74 I'm sorry to criticize a friend of yours, Cliff's and Alex's, but that Goldman article is terrible -- indistinguishable from what you'll see in tomorrow's tabloids. It's full of bad faith (ignoring his own past writings on Torre) and somewhat intellectually dishonest (not addressing obvious counter-arguments). His work really seems to have suffered since you left.
2007-10-19 18:52:59
87.   yankz
85 He's not THAT bad- Antone is a freaking moron!
2007-10-19 18:54:50
88.   monkeypants
85 Please review--I did not say that he was. I only point out that Goldman's dictum about making a change is flawed.
2007-10-19 18:55:01
89.   fgasparini
86 Yes, I agree. Goldman is intermittently interesting but is not, shall we say, alive to the contradictions in his own body of work.
2007-10-19 18:55:26
90.   monkeypants
88 refers to 87 .
2007-10-19 18:55:40
91.   OldYanksFan
42 WRONG! Torre said opening he EXPECTED a pay cut. Cashman told him he was getting a pay cut. In his 'negotiations' with Levine, he did not ask for money.

We have the press conference and Torre's WFAN interview. There are a number of media articles. We have plenty of facts that can be discussed. Why are people throwing things that have NOT been said out there, as if they were fact?

2007-10-19 18:59:24
92.   yankz
88 I was making a joke on your typo (ANTONE instead of ANYONE)...was it not a typo?
2007-10-19 19:06:08
93.   jonm
83 You're right that this is probably about feelings, but Joe's words/logic demand exactly what I said.

But, still, feelings aside, I don't think that anyone here would say that they've been completely satisfied with Torre's performance over the last three years. The debate is a matter of the degree.

The Yankees' offer was a milquetoast compromise and Joe was offended. Most see a plot behind the offer, but that may genuinely be the contract that they thought Joe deserved. Joe thought he deserved 2 years/$15 million. The sides didn't agree and parted ways

2007-10-19 19:08:39
94.   Max
86 89 "Intellectually dishonest" "alive to the contradictions" Very sweet sounding phrases. Perhaps if people took the time to read the substance of the article closely (instead of filing the article in a "Joe rocks" or "Joe is a bum" category), one could see that the "contradictions" and "dishonesty" aren't as dramatic or as glaring as some people would like them to be.

How is Goldman's past criticism of Torre's performance (much of it scathing and referenced frequently by Torre critics here, with some justification) inconsistent with what he said in the article:

"the crime is not in letting Torre go. If the Yankees felt it was time for a change, swell. That's their prerogative, and they may not be wrong to exercise it. You can make strong arguments either way. That said, have the guts to do it cleanly, and don't try to fool Torre's fans both on and off the field"

And I don't see Goldman's call for perspective in analyzing the impact of a manager's game decisions as somehow contradicting what he has done before -- tactical analysis and a bigger picture view of situations can certainly co-exist in a fertile mind. If anything, it is "intellectually dishonest" to pretend intelligent people don't occasionally contradict themselves.

But if this is just about Goldman being a bum because he's showing some sympathy for the way Joe was treated, hey, carry on with the "obvious counterarguments".

2007-10-19 19:10:01
95.   Zack
62 When has George ever shown respect to his managers/players?

Blaming Levine to me is a cop out. Hes a lesser version of Larry L, true, but the Sox are doing just fine with that, now aren't they?

I just find it funny that the thing that Torre finally found insulting, after years of abuse from George and the press (money does help), was, well, less money and years. As I said, if they had just turned that incentive stuff to guaranteed, 100% he'd be back.

And don't get me started on the press. The same press that hammered Joe when he was hired, the same press that throughout THIS YEAR hammered him and questioned him, now suddenly is his best friend and deeply in love with him? Please, I'm not buying it.

If all most people are really upset about is that the Yankees took an extra week to decide what to do and then offered Torre a contract that was not ideal according to his standards and then didn't let him try and renegotiate, then come on. They didn't exactly bad mouth him or kick him to the curb or burn his effigy. Its hardly the greatest insult known to man. Yes, it wasn't begging him to return and letting him know ASAP that he wasn't coming back, but its just a freaking week guys.

Shouldn't you be just as mad at Andy Pettitte, whose player option was signed under the understanding that he would pick it up if healthy? Or Rivera, who may decide to follow more money rather than loyalty?

If

2007-10-19 19:10:48
96.   monkeypants
91 Calm down. From the MLB.com article:

""I just felt that the terms of the contract were probably something I had the toughest time with," Torre said during a press conference at the Rye Town Hilton, near his home in suburban Westchester County. "The one year, for one thing; the incentives for another thing. I had been there for 12 years, and I didn't feel the motivation was needed...

...Five million dollars is a lot of money, and I'm not going to sneeze at that. I'm not going make that this year, so it's certainly not something I take for granted. But the fact that someone is reducing your salary, it's telling me that they're not satisfied with what you're doing. ... Two years certainly would have opened the door to have further discussion, but it never happened.""

He was not happy with salary, clearly. He was without a doubt not happy with the incentives and the length of the contract.

In any case, even if your point is conceded, my post at 42 is not affected at all. It boils down to: Torre wanted two years at least, and would not consider anything less (as indicated in the bold text above: two years was the sine qua non for Torre to negotiate); the Yankees would not offer more than one year. Ergo, both sides were intransigent on the key issue--the length of the contract.

2007-10-19 19:13:43
97.   monkeypants
92 Ha-ha-ha! Any more, I'm not sure I can differentiate my mistakes from my intended text...
2007-10-19 19:17:54
98.   Chyll Will
I just don't know what to say at this point. I hate the cruelty and indifference that money breeds in people who either have most of it or little of it. I feel helpless for my favorite team as we identify the true incompetents making crucial decisions about it's future. We certainly live in confusing times where we claim ownership to properties and principles that clearly do not involve us. Fans were not involved in this decision except as a fear factor; if the cabal of individuals claiming ownership and authority over this club were concerned with moving on or making improvements in their own minds, they would not have tried to make a save-face offer and then try to justify it to the press.

It's clear to me that the business model (using a term they mentioned yesterday in justifying their moving on) is out-of-whack. What truly is the mission of the Yankees? To win the World Series? For whom, themselves so they can throw a tiny parade for themselves in Legends Field? I will not let these empty suits speak for me as a fan. Their souls are anchored firmly to the bottom line while claiming to know what the fans want and what the players need, and perhaps I speak for myself, but that is unacceptable to me.

It is unclear what can be done about it; I'm ready to guess that the Steinbrothers are thinking they might be in over their heads right now since the only people who have spoken on their side is Levinconpoop and Cash (who I suspect will be the next one on the hot seat), but time will make a difference one way or another.

As for Torre, as I said yesterday, I'm okay with Torre not being manager as he left pretty much on his own terms; he did not accept a contract that compromised his principles, whether you agree with that or not. I absolutely despise the way this was handled; like they hated him but did not have the balls to say so. I don't have respect for people who can't stand behind their words, who need a consensus to make up their own minds and who sacrifice others to gain solely for themselves. Torre may not have deserved to be manager any longer in some people's minds, but he deserved to be treated better if this was to be the last of it.

No one should expect less than to be treated with that kind of respect, no matter what you do. That people feel the need to lie, hide behind someone else or fumble around for a way to please people who don't make a difference to them except to pay their own bills is why I feel so cynical and sarcastic when thinking about them. It is not by law that we should be treated well, but by nature. No matter how much money the man made above anyone else, Torre has easily related to the average, well, Joe. We feel the things he feels because he relates to us in a way we respect, otherwise there would be no such outpouring in the media and even here. Torre was maybe a hero to many of you; I admired him for his decency and his blue collar ethics.

That he is human and capable of wrong things himself would in many a judgmental mind paint him as a hypocrite, but I defy anyone to tell me who among anyone in Yankee history has not made the types of errors in either management or judgment he has made and still not only succeed beyond anyone's expectations, but command more respect than anyone during his time as manager? Envy and greed are natural components of human nature, but Torre seemed to balance those elements well enough to not allow them to motivate his decisions in the dugout or out of it. Not so for the people who see themselves as the authority figures in this unnecessary drama. Cowards!

I've said enough. I would go on all night if I had the energy or the idea that anyone here would agree or take into consideration what I was saying. Not to mention that this is not meant to be a post; I know you'll see it here and you can choose the special ignore feature that Ken subliminally installed in your comment field. You don't have to agree, and I will not lambast you if you don't, but... aw the hell with it, what am I fighting for here? Can anyone at least help me get to a clear and concise point that even I can agree with?

2007-10-19 19:18:48
99.   yankz
95 "As I said, if they had just turned that incentive stuff to guaranteed, 100% he'd be back."

I'm not so sure of that at all. Even if money is important, it definitely seems that years count far more.

2007-10-19 19:23:17
100.   yankz
98 "I'm okay with Torre not being manager as he left pretty much on his own terms; he did not accept a contract that compromised his principles, whether you agree with that or not. I absolutely despise the way this was handled; like they hated him but did not have the balls to say so."

Don't know if you've been reading the comments, but a LOT of people here (myself included) feel the same way. The Goldman article posted agrees as well.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-19 19:25:40
101.   seamus
This is tiring just reading it all, here, in the media, everywhere. I'm a bit disjointed on this as I kind of feel that the media would have fried the Yanees no matter what they did if it resulted in Torre leaving. If the Yanks just plain said, "We don't want you back", the media would have gone ballistic. In fact, they were going ballistic over that possibility before anything even happened.

So, I'm greatly looking forward to discussing our new manager, whoever that will be. I hope Eilland winds up as pitching coach. I'd be happy with any of the 3 names mentioned by Cash. I've gotta feel that Mattingly has the inside track.

2007-10-19 19:29:42
102.   Shaun P
98 100 I agree too.

Here's a short concise point for you, Chyll - when one tries to play the PR game to CTA (cover their ass), it never works. Man up to what you're doing instead of trying to hide it, and you'll at least be respected.

I can think of quite a few famous people who could stand to learn this lesson, in addition to the Tampa Trio.

101 Good luck changing the topic of discussion, seamus. I wish you well.

2007-10-19 19:30:28
103.   yankz
Steinbrenner's role has been decreasing lately. I hope the Brothers Dim and Levine fill only that hole- the diminished one. I thought Cashman/Oppenheimer/Contreras were doing a fine job.
2007-10-19 19:31:21
104.   seamus
102 oh, I don't expect it to change. Just looking forward to it changing (which it will eventually). And really, I know folks need to get it out anyhow...
2007-10-19 19:33:49
105.   wsporter
98 Chyll, what I take from that is a sense of sadness and loss.

That's my take and my feeling on this as well. What ever else this day is to me it is a sad one. Watching Mr. Torre operate with his sense of calm and air of dignity made me wish he was still there for us. It's personal and it's peculiar to my own sense of things. He was never perfect as a manager of my team but he was better and more successful and did it longer than anyone I can remember and I go back a long time. I suspect many of us will only realize how good he was in the years to come.

2007-10-19 19:39:33
106.   Zack
I know I seem to be mostly alone here, but I wish I were given the kind of respect Joe has been given/was given by the Yankees. Its all relative. I'm a grad student who gets by on the smallest of budgets and would manage the Yankees for room and board, let alone 5-8 million dollars. And I'm sure that after doing that for 12 years, I would find 5 million dollars insulting, I guess. Or that my boss left me in limbo for a week and then presented me with a hard-line, take it or leave it offer that still left me far and away the highest paid manager...

As much as we say that the world shouldn't work like this and that we need perspective and its about respect, but Joe Torre is a very rich man who has been given all the respect in the world. To call this a lack of respect bugs me, because I have been disrespected in far worst ways and I actually think focusing on this takes away from the real injustices that are often done to people. Capitalism is shit (I am, after all, a grad student), and it often makes people lead horrible, pitiless existences nobody should ever have to even have nightmares of, let alone live through, and to say that Joe Torre was disrespected and deserves better than this just bugs me. Like I said, for better or for worse, and its hardly something ideal, but that we could all be so disrespected!

2007-10-19 19:40:05
107.   monkeypants
101 I'm ready to give up, if it helps us move on to another disucssion topic. So here goes:

I hereby retract all arguments I have made that this situation was more complex than it has been presented. Rather, I hereby affirm that Steinbrenner, his worthless sons, and their money-grubbing minions are all evil; they hate humanit and have no respect for human dignity; they hold all employees but especially the fans in contempt. By contrast, Joe Torre is a man of absolute principle; he is not motivated by any selfish concerns; he was completely open to dialogue and compromise. This whole situation was completely mishandled by the Yankees, who wronged Joe Torre in every respect and in the process deepely offended humanity. And it wasn't about money.

There, can we move on now?

2007-10-19 19:41:10
108.   Zack
That came across as very self-righteous and humanistic, which wasn't really my intention. I really just meant to say that while I feel sadness at Joe leaving, I don't feel sorry FOR him...
2007-10-19 19:41:34
109.   Chyll Will
95 I still believe that the issue was deeper than that... that the underlying principle behind those years and the money is that people respond to a given situation naturally. What Torre could have argued was that without a longer-term contract and with the implication that monetary incentive would guide him in making fundamental day-to-day decisions, the very people he would have authority over would tune him out because the organization would usurp his authority at a moment's notice; which they did with Contreras by sending him to Billy Connors instead of to the minors (which they no doubt would have done with Igawa if Connors was still in vogue) and there-you-have-it, lame duck.

Interestingly enough though, Torre stated that he was concerned that the players would press themselves in an effort to save his job, which essentially they did. That these same players rallied behind him when this whole thing took place says a lot about the respect that he commanded in that clubhouse; perhaps without Steinbrenner's meddling, the club could have come back and beaten Cleveland. Did we not all shake our heads in disgust when Steinbrenner ran his mouth? In my mind, this was his mistake and as usual, he tried to scapegoat someone else. I'm not saying Torre didn't make mistakes, but that Steinbrenner and his cohorts compounded them.

Now they want to act like they had nothing to do with him turning them down. If it were about trying to find a way to agree on something, the meeting would have lasted longer and Torre would have been there from the get-go. This was Corporate Politics Alchemy 101 lab period, complete with plentiful samples of alloyed bullshyt and where mistakes are washed away and forgotten about by next Opening Day.

2007-10-19 19:41:51
110.   jonm
94

This is not the place to do a point-by-point refutation of Goldman's argument. Still, to summarize, what Goldman says is not inconsistent with the following interpretation of events:

1. The Yankees have had a wishy-washy attitude about Joe since after the 2005 season (this attitude was justified, in light of Goldman's past criticism, particularly his scathing criticism concerning Torre's treatment of A-Rod during the 2006 post-season).
2. The fact that Torre already had a contract played an important role in their decision to keep him after 2005 and 2006.
3. The wishy-washy attitude only had a chance to be expressed when it came time to offer him a new contract.
4. The new offer expressed that attitude and Torre was offended.
5. Torre's refusal of their offer was a tipping point and led them to decide to let him go.

Goldman's a smart guy, but he ignored this interpretation and he essentially wrote a Mike Lupica column.

Also, Torre's ability to insulate players meant something different in his era than it did in the previous years of the Steinbrenner regime. When the Yankees were winning in the post-season from 1996-2001, Steinbrenner's criticism was necessarily muted. After that, Steinbrenner started to mellow and then to fade. I simply don't believe that Torre's "ability" to insulate the players would have been at all effective in say, 1983.

2007-10-19 19:43:18
111.   yankz
107 To quote william: Yawn!
2007-10-19 19:45:39
112.   JL25and3
101 Actually, I think you might have had a lot of people saying that, especially at first - but I think there would also have been a sizable contingent saying it was time for a change. I know I wouldn't have reacted strongly if they'd just made a simple announcement that they wanted to head in another direction.

That's definitely the kind of thing that happens in business every day, and most of us know that. This was either incompetent or deliberate or both.

2007-10-19 19:46:38
113.   monkeypants
111 I agree!
2007-10-19 19:47:10
114.   yankz
112 Some believe that they were actually offering him a deal with the intention of getting him to accept it. I don't, but that's just me.
2007-10-19 19:47:26
115.   Zack
I've brought this up in the past to which I was told Ken is working on it, but wouldn't it be great if we could all have profiles so we could know a bit more about each other? Maybe avatars and the like?
2007-10-19 19:47:45
116.   yankz
So, who thinks Parkman's dad is really the one killing of The Company?
2007-10-19 19:48:16
117.   yankz
115 Shotgun Jessica Alba as my avatar.
2007-10-19 19:48:41
118.   jonm
106 Hear, Hear!

I wish that this concern for "respect" expressed by baseball fans would be reflected in the political sphere, the world of everyday people. I really see the people who are personally offended by the great Torre "affront" as not that different from the people who were upset about the "injustice" perpetrated on Paris Hilton by our legal system.

2007-10-19 19:49:54
119.   Raf
81 While I kinda understand what you're saying, the two situations are a bit different; I don't think Torre has any issue with Gen Von Steingrabber...
2007-10-19 19:52:08
120.   OldYanksFan
98 Nicely spoken. I hear ya and I'm with ya. There are many who think that people who administer this business, this thing that was once considered out National Pasttime, have no obligations to even the most basic of human values; that the desire to be profitable excuses any and all behavior; and that while it is fans who generate the bottom line, that we factor little into the equation, except in that we must be soothed with propaganda.

I'm with ya Chyll.
You have a good heart.
A true southern Gentleman.
(HA!)

2007-10-19 19:54:29
121.   JL25and3
106 Well, Zack, it is only baseball. What you say could apply equally to any of the thousands of issues we get passionate about over the course of a baseball season. If I were paid the major-league minimum, I'd be thrilled; if the Yankees offered that to Alex Rodriguez - and pretended it was a legitimate offer - he'd be insulted.
2007-10-19 19:54:37
122.   Raf
118 We're talking about Joe Torre, not Tony LaRussa...

:)

2007-10-19 19:54:51
123.   yankz
118 Are you kidding me?

You went from somewhat reasonable to condescending. Nice.

Some idiots tried to defend Paris Hilton after she went to jail for a damn DUI. And you're saying those people are the equivalent of people who think the Yankees should have just said "Joe, you've done wonderful things, but we're moving in a different direction. Thanks for everything you're a Yankee for life."

Yup. I'm going to take you seriously now.

2007-10-19 19:55:51
124.   yankz
Also, the Dodger fans are hardcore dissing Jeter and Arod. It's very obviously jealousy (going after Jeter's ladyfriends and Arod's money), but, still...

Juan Pierre sucks!

2007-10-19 19:59:00
125.   wsporter
124 Well, at least they're not going after Jeter's money and A-Rod's lady friends! :-)
2007-10-19 20:02:30
126.   jonm
98 120
A nice thought, but you really should read John Helyar's Lords of the Realm.
http://tinyurl.com/2yb4la
123
I was kidding about Paris Hilton, but I'm just temperamentally immune from feeling personal sympathy for the pain, not brought upon by tragedy, of millionaires whom I don't know.
2007-10-19 20:03:07
127.   pistolpete
115 I vote that it gets done by the time the new Stadium opens. That should be enough leeway, no?
2007-10-19 20:03:47
128.   wsporter
Anyone recognize that No Maas seems to have packed it in? If this is what it took maybe it was worth it after all.
2007-10-19 20:05:43
129.   rilkefan
115 I suspect that if you google on handles here you'll find out more about a lot of commenters. E.g., if you stumble across my blog you'll find that I like Clive James's poem "Bring Me The Sweat Of Gabriela Sabatini" - http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2007/07/bring-me-sweat-of-gabriela-sabatini.html
or that I was saddened by the death of Sergio Vieira De Mello enough to write an elegy:
http://rosenschale.blogspot.com/2007/10/elegy-for-sergio-vieira-de-mello.html
- but then you might decide that's TMI.
2007-10-19 20:08:17
130.   yankz
The only handle I ever googled was that dude who was insulting us left and right during the ALDS.
2007-10-19 20:08:38
131.   OldYanksFan
107 Well... it took over 100 posts, but I'm glad you have finally come to your senses.
2007-10-19 20:08:42
132.   Chyll Will
105 You are very right, my friend. I spent a better part of my life taking things like this personally, and for what? The last twelve years of my own life has seen remarkable change and growth for me, and I was emotionally tied to what I felt brought out the best of this area I call home. It is foolish to think I made a difference in their reality, but it made a difference to me.

I'll tell you something else: I read a column in the Daily Rues this morning essentially recapping Torre's tenure which included references to the things that happened to him and the players along the way; the cancer scares, three players losing their fathers the same year, the triumphs and disappointments. I did, I started crying.

I said I would never wish what happened to me on anyone, even anyone I hated. But I can't imagine what Torre had to go through in those years and what he had to be for so many others in need of something.

I tried to take something from that, and perhaps I'm not that crazy for emotionally tying a string to them. I can accept change, whether I like it or not, because I have to. But my only problem is I tend to anticipate sympathy where it shouldn't or doesn't need to be.

I'm sorry for lashing out. I regret that my emotion got the better of me in my last comments. I'll try better to temper myself and focus on adding something of substance and not just reverberating or taking away from it.

2007-10-19 20:08:46
133.   yankz
129 Way to subtly plug your own blog ;)
2007-10-19 20:12:03
134.   yankz
132 Congrats on the new gig man.
2007-10-19 20:14:14
135.   OldYanksFan
sympathy: Good
emotion: Good
respect: Good
Levine: Bad
2007-10-19 20:19:00
136.   yankz
I'd just like to remind everyone that we're a family here (or as I told the DT people, a family at Thanksgiving: Always yelling and quite possibly drunk), which is why this is my second favorite website (you all know my obsession with youtube...). I'm mostly looking at myself here, I've been a jackass at multiple points today, but let's keep in mind that we're all Yankees here. Remember, no names on the jerseys!
2007-10-19 20:19:16
137.   monkeypants
Oversimplification: good
nuance: bad
complexity: bad
2007-10-19 20:19:46
138.   yankz
Post 136 inspired after some "serious consideration."
2007-10-19 20:19:50
139.   wsporter
132 Chyll you've been a good guy around here for a long time. I don't think you owe anyone an apology or an explanation. We all bear our crosses; some differently and some better than others but we all bear them none-the-less. It's nice to think that every once in a great while someone might step up and give us a hand.

There is a certain coldness that runs through this thread that is somewhat off putting; all this capitalism, perspective and nuance is making me sleepy.

2007-10-19 20:21:36
140.   Chyll Will
134 Oh yeah, that >;) Nice how I rant about corporate politics and then I obstensibly aid and abed its exploitation firsthand... oh well, who cares about paying the rent, right?
2007-10-19 20:29:55
141.   Chyll Will
138 Ha! >;)

139 ...zzzzz If you caption you're comments with snoozes, people will think you're nuts. But then, I never claimed I wasn't. Maybe I am, maybe not, but I know I was supposed to go to bed two hours ago, g'nite zzzzz...

2007-10-19 20:31:21
142.   yankz
141 A 9:30 bedtime on a Friday night?
2007-10-19 20:33:28
143.   yankz
Is it immature of me to mark all pro-Sox comments on YouTube as spam? Probably, but does that stop me? Ha!
2007-10-19 20:38:22
144.   Chyll Will
142 ...zzzzz For a 5:30am call-time on a Saturday morning, coupled with an hour-long subway ride just to get there (not to mention waiting for the train to show up)? I should've just went straight to bed when I got home zzzzz...
2007-10-19 20:46:08
145.   yankz
Donnie's agent:

"Today Brian Cashman reached out to Don Mattingly and expressed the New York Yankees interest in Don becoming a candidate for the current managerial position. Don confirmed his interest and will travel to Tampa early next week to meet with Yankee ownership. No other details are available tonight."

2007-10-19 21:00:33
146.   yankz
"I think there are some people that can step in and make the transition easier for some guys," Johnny Damon told the New York Daily News. "I know Don Mattingly is a guy that everybody on the team has great respect for, and I think if it's not going to be Joe, a lot of players are probably hoping it's Donnie. He's learned a lot from Joe, he works hard -- I think Donnie's ready."
2007-10-19 21:04:54
147.   monkeypants
145 Let us say, for sake of argument, that Mattingly is the next manager. How will this narrative be spun: Mattingly the opportunist without principles? Mattingly the back-stabbing collaborator? Mattingly the naive pawn? Mattingly the Torresque subversive who foils the owners' plans?
2007-10-19 21:10:22
148.   rilkefan
147 Depends whose ox is gored.

I'm guessing Mattingly the in over his head, but here's hoping for the best.

2007-10-19 21:59:04
149.   yankz
I'm going with naive pawn.
2007-10-19 22:17:40
150.   OldYanksFan
I see no reason why anyone would have a problem with Donnie (except mayby Girardi). Donnie was vocal in his strong support for Torre, and might be the only one who can help smooth this transition.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-19 22:34:57
151.   Zack
Oh, I think the transition will go just fine no matter who is at the helm. The reality is that come spring, Yanks fans will be lining up, the players will be playing, and it will be situation normal. That is one thing of which I am confident.
2007-10-19 23:30:19
152.   JL25and3
147 No one's going to say a bad thing about Mattingly, except maybe that he's woefully underqualified. None of this will rub off on him. But people will still think the FO is a bunch of dickheads.
2007-10-19 23:33:17
153.   monkeypants
152 I wonder about that. I mean, if Torre showed principles by turning down the Yankees' offer, wouldn't at least some argue that Mattingly should have to do the same, out of a sense of loyalty, duty, and respect?

I'm just trying to make the various narratives fit together without contradiction.

2007-10-19 23:40:36
154.   yankz
153 I'm sure Mattingly will have Torre's blessing.
2007-10-19 23:49:52
155.   monkeypants
154 "I'm too principled to work for these bastards, but you have my blessing if you want to sell out."

OK, it's too late and I'm geetting snarkier than usual (??!!).

2007-10-19 23:57:50
156.   yankz
155 Yeah, you are. Mattingly was fiercely loyal to Torre throughout this ordeal. I don't see why Joe wouldn't do the same.

Why is everyone turning on Joe? Even if you think he was a bad manager, why do people all of a sudden think of him as a jackass?

2007-10-20 00:12:05
157.   monkeypants
156 I'm not turning on him at all. I'm critiquing in my own clumsy way how the media (and most of us Banterers) spun this into a narrative primarily about principle, honor, and morality. But that morality tale creates subsequent narrative difficulties, assuming the beloved Mattingly is made the heir. The narrative would be so much easier if some oily asshole took the job--a coaching opportunist like hockey's Mike Keenan. Then he could be the bad guy: the high profile sleazeball hired gun whom Steinco employed to displace martyr Joe.

But when so many people write "good for Joe for telling the Yankees to shove it," and further opine about how awful it is working for Steinbrenner/sons/Levine, how "dysfunctional" the organization is, how inhumane employees are treated, etc...it becomes harder not to implicitly damn Mattingly at the same time (if he should take the job). In this narrative he is either or fool or mercenary.

But, this is probably not how the Mattingly narrative will be written. So, there will (most likely) be a narrative dissonance--and this fascinates me from a historiographic perspective.

From a baseball perspective, I think Mattingly would do fine, but if he does screw up he'll be under heightened scrutiny because if his lack of managerial experience.

2007-10-20 00:18:54
158.   monkeypants
156 As a follow up, and to exemplify my thoughts:

"Mattingly was fiercely loyal to Torre throughout this ordeal."

Yes, but doesn't that fierce loyalty dictate, on some level, that Mattingly should not take (or would not want to take) his old job, with or without the latter's blessing? In his fierce loyalty, might he even threaten to walk? So, if he takes the job, the conflicting narratives must be reconciled--it will be fascinating to watch how and how successfully the narratives are woven together.

2007-10-20 00:21:46
159.   Adrian
Forwarned -- it's 3AM and I'm rather (read: completely) drunk. That said, ultimately we're talking about a 67 year old man who took us to the postseason 12 times. He spoiled us with many WS appearances, and four wins. Joe Torre deserved better than he got from Randy Levine, who is, was and always will be a total clown. When Rudy is president, no doubt he'll be called up to some appointed position for which he is vaguely qualified and we Yankees fans will be left holding the bill. /end baseless political rancor.

Will we be OK in the future under a new manager? Absolutely. Was it time for Joe to go? Perhaps. What we cannot lose sight of is that the Yankees hierarchy has jettisoned a fundamentally decent man in a manner ill befitting his dedication to the team, the love of his players, and his record.

In my mind, baseball is at a point in which people can view it as a business or as a pastime. A lot of you may think that's an esoteric point, but it's not. Hmm. I've written the following sentence several times, but it hasn't come out quite right. Let me try this time, and maybe clarify when I'm less inebriated. If baseball is a business, then relative advantage means everything. If you achieve a WS win, do we forgive steroid abuse? Is it a means to our desired end or does it somehow breach the hard-to-define ethical lines of baseball? What happens if we -- pacified by our tickertape parade and trophy -- don't look? Do you really trust Randy Levine to respect those lines? I don't.

There is a tension between winning and playing, between ends and means. I was tremendously proud of the 2007 Yankees franchise, moreso than I have been since the late '90s. For the first time, they struggled, and I struggled with them. Despite the 1st round loss in the postseason, I felt that this team overcame more, worked more, pulled together more than most NYY teams. In the early summer they came to a point of no return and they fought it off to become the AL wildcard. I can't deny Torre's culpability in the early slump, but I also can't deny the joy I felt as he piloted this team to one of it's most meaningful posteeason appearances. Anyone who wants to bury Torre's contributions should peer downriver at Shea, where the empty seats and echoing postseason stillness bear solemn witness to true managerial failure.

Torre was an old man, a good man, a good manager. I will miss him.

2007-10-20 00:27:21
160.   yankz
158 If Joe calls him and says "Donnie, this is a great opportunity for you, I completely, 100% understand you taking it," I don't think that would be disloyal of Mattingly, no. And I imagine that is what a blessing would look like.
2007-10-20 00:33:31
161.   yankz
This is hilarious:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gAJTzMq2VAA

(Also, WTF are we doing awake?)

2007-10-20 03:11:15
162.   Yu-Hsing Chen
150 except the total lack of experience.... sure
2007-10-20 06:40:05
163.   williamnyy23
The more I think about the situation, it seems more and more as if Joe Torre cut off his nose to spite his face. To use another cliche, he won the PR battle, but lost the war (his job). If you believe Torre, the "job" meant so much to him. Being with the players, interacting with the public and putting on the pinstripes was the reward. Well, if that's true, then why not accept what still is a very hefty salary and manage another season. Does it really matter that Randy Levine might not want you back? Is that what Joe was seeking...Randy Levine's approval? That should have been irrelevant, especially if Joe really believes that Cashman wanted him back. On the one hand, Joe had his players/fans/GM in his corner, and on the other hand, he had Levine and the Steinbrenner kids more skeptical. How silly is it that he should let the latter dictate his decision.

Even though they will take a beating in the media (who essentially are more friends of Joe than objective observers), I think the business trio of Levine/SteinbrennerX2 were honest on their approach. They didn't love Torre...they were skeptical...they might have even preferred another manager...but ultimately, they were willing to make him an offer to comeback in 2008. Torre decided that if they didn't show him love, he would walk away. That's all well in good, but when it comes down to it, Joe walked away because of his own pride. And, as we all know, pride comes before the fall.

Best of luck to you Joe. Thanks for memories. But, no apologies whatsoever.

2007-10-20 06:54:38
164.   OldYanksFan
Bowa to Seattle.
WW: "Bowa had said in the past that Torre was the reason why he was on the team."
Luhud:"This is bad news for the Yankees as Bowa is the best third-base coach in the business and an excellent infield instructor. He has made a major impact in the career of Robinson Cano and it was his work all spring that helped Alex Rodriguez improve his fielding so much."

And so it begins.

2007-10-20 07:07:44
165.   nemecizer
164 Wait until the news is final before you slip the noose over your neck.
2007-10-20 07:16:57
166.   OldYanksFan
Tell Pete Abe that. I just cut'n'paste.
It is reported that Bowa is 'expected', but not signed yet.
Can you think of a reason Bowa has let it get this far, if he was planning on staying?
It didn't seem like he wasted much time to me.
But you are correct... it ain't a done deal yet.
2007-10-20 07:18:08
167.   williamnyy23
164 Losing a third base coach isn't such bad news? Bowa did a solid job, but no 3B coach is worth losing sleep over.
2007-10-20 07:20:31
168.   williamnyy23
166 If you're Bowa and you have a firm job offer on the table, you have to take it. There's a good chance that the new Yankee manager will want to hire his own staff. If Bowa waits too long, he might be out of a job altogether. Also, Bowa was the 3B for the Seattle once before, so it's probably a very comfortable move for him.
2007-10-20 07:22:44
169.   monkeypants
164 I'm not sure that WW quote counts as evidence--surely they could site an article with a direct quote. In fact, citing WW for anything is, well, a bit dangerous--that is one overwrought site.

What exactly was the "major impact" on Cano's career? That he started slow again and actually finished the season with slightly worse numbers?

As for A-Rod's fielding, let's see. In 2004 he committed 13 errors, 12 in 2005, 24 in 2006, and 13 in 2007. Bowa gets credit for A-Rod's fielding in 2007? But what about 2006, when Bowa was also on the clud? Or, what about A-Rod's very good defense in the years before Bowa? And isn't this the same Bowa who aliented the Phillies' players when he was manager?

Oh wait, I forgot, this all doesn't fit the narrative. Ignore what I just wrote, I'll try again...

Yes, another good man has left the fold, following in the large footsteps of Joe Torre. Once again, SteinCo's tasteless tactics have driven away a paragon of humanity and the finest at his position. Scratch another 5 wins off next year's season, and stay tuned as the exodus continues.

2007-10-20 07:23:41
170.   monkeypants
168 Give it up, William, You must stick to the narrative...
2007-10-20 07:27:02
171.   williamnyy23
169 Actually, Bowa didn't join the Yankees until 2006, so if anything, you'd have to wonder why Arod had such a poor defensive season in Bowa's first year. Of course, the real reason is Arod's defense has zippo to do with Bowa. Trying to paint Bowa's departure as the beginning of a post-Torre deluge is a major stretch.
2007-10-20 07:27:10
172.   williamnyy23
169 Actually, Bowa didn't join the Yankees until 2006, so if anything, you'd have to wonder why Arod had such a poor defensive season in Bowa's first year. Of course, the real reason is Arod's defense has zippo to do with Bowa. Trying to paint Bowa's departure as the beginning of a post-Torre deluge is a major stretch.
2007-10-20 07:29:56
173.   williamnyy23
170 The wave of Torre sympathy doesn't surprise, but I already sense some of the tide turning. As the dust settles, I think more and more people will realize that Joe had a major hand in his decision to not come back. No player is bigger than the Yankees...not Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, Casey Stengel, Reggie Jackson, Arod...and not Joe Torre.
2007-10-20 08:43:15
174.   Zack
173 Like in all things, time will settle things, and by spring training, these feelings with be but a pinch. Perspective is everything, and at least some reporters may eventually try and do their job and look at both sides...But we will all miss Joe, until the new manager shows his BP skills :) (or lack there of)

And as for Bowa...meh. He was a good 3rd base coach, but 3rd base coaches aren't that hard to find. Pete A., on the other hand, is just looking for ways to trash the Yankees FO at this point to prove his point, just as he did with Hughes, Phelps, Stink, Edwar etc. When he decides that something is as such, he puts all his efforts into spinning the news, however insignificant it is, towards that point while at the same time actually attacking the people.

As little as I like Randy Levine, I was actually really surprised at how much Pete A. attacked him as a person, quite unprofessional..

2007-10-20 08:55:03
175.   Jimmy Clark
I'm waiting for Pete Abraham to credit Bowa for those Gold Gloves A Rod won at Texas playing short. Stottlemyre signing on at Seattle? I was hoping he would sign on at Boston and destroy Beckett as he did Gooden 20 years ago.
2007-10-20 09:04:27
176.   rilkefan
Murray Chass's latest two columns in the NYT have a neutral-to-anti-Torre tone, I think. Kepner kinda blames him for the last six playoff series losses: http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/the-six-playoff-moves-that-haunted-joe-torre/
Anderson's column is pro-Torre but not anti-FO. Roberts doesn't get any page-views from me but from the headline is apparently anti-FO.
2007-10-20 09:05:46
177.   rilkefan
I want to know which coach to blame for Jeter's GGs.
2007-10-20 09:22:55
178.   yankz
What? Cano is one of the best fielding 2B in the game, and I know he's credited Bowa tons. WHY is everybody here so quick to discredit those leaving? Torre and Bowa accomplished a lot here; I think we can all agree on that. Sure, Pete Abe is kind of loopy the past few days, but that doesn't mean every single word he writes has no basis in reality whatsoever.
2007-10-20 09:31:22
179.   yankz
Cano did not shy away from Camp Bowa. He all but drew up the curriculum. When Cano learned that Bowa had replaced Luis Sojo as the infield coach, he asked Ray Negron, an adviser to Steinbrenner, for Bowa's number. Cano knew Bowa had a long playing career, had managed the Phillies and worked for ESPN last season. Cano, who said he added five pounds of muscle over the winter, wanted to make the first contact.

"I just called him because I wanted to be here early," Cano said. "I've got to start working hard. And he said, 'No problem.' "

Bowa, who said he was stunned by the call, was eager to take Cano up on his offer. Every other morning at spring training, before the team's main practice, Bowa has worked with Cano, Miguel Cairo and Felix Escaloña on a back field.

After Cano missed a ball to his backhand in a game, Bowa hit grounder after grounder to that spot the next morning. In that day's game, Cano made a flawless backhand on the first ball hit to him. Then he made eye contact with Bowa in the dugout.

"I like the kid," Bowa said. "He wants to be the best."

---http://tinyurl.com/hn36n

Sure, he's not irreplaceable, but he'll be tough to replace nonetheless.

2007-10-20 09:41:46
180.   Simone
For years when people bitched about George Steinbrenner, I always said that they would rue the day that his reign of terror as the primary decision maker for the Yankees was over. Steinbrenner was predictably unpredictable, but he would have been straight up with firing Joe. The post-Steinbrenner days are starting off rocky and will continue to be that way until the Yankees get one strong primary owner again.
2007-10-20 09:49:41
181.   monkeypants
178 We should not discredit everyone who leaves, but we should not be too quick to overcredit and/or beatify them, either. If Bowa gets credit for turning Cano into a great fielder, does he get demerits for Jeter's regression as a fielder? If he gets credit for helping Arod in 2007, does he get some blame for Arod's miserable defensive 2006?

And really, will he be hard to replace?

2007-10-20 09:53:40
182.   monkeypants
179 It seems that Cano took the initiative--this says more about Cano than about Bowa (who was indeed a good egg for hitting all those grounders). Are we seriously to believe that the next coach, if he was a ML infielder, will be unwilling to give pointers about fielding or will decline to hit fungoes to the infielders? I mean, isn't that what coaches do?
2007-10-20 09:57:48
183.   yankz
181 "And really, will he be hard to replace?"

Yes, he will. Read the article, it seemed like many people on the team had close relationships with him. I'll bet he's gotten a dozen phone calls today from current Yankees alone.

And it's not like he gave Jeter/Arod bad advice. He was an excellent fielder and definitely knows his stuff. Fielding grounders is pretty static; it's not like you have to learn new methods. Jeter's regression was probably just to his naturally low mean or injury. Arod's shitty fielding in '06 (though, don't his advanced fielding stats look pretty good? That's what I thought) might be because he was a head case that year, or maybe he simply didn't click with Bowa. Not everyone can be coached by anyone.

Still, when it appears like a majority of the team got along well with him, and he didn't have any glaring negative qualities, yes, that's tough to replace.

2007-10-20 10:00:08
184.   yankz
182 Cano took the initiative because he was very, very motivated. Doesn't mean Bowa wouldn't have reached out to him. Are you actually trying to deny the existence of a close relationship between the two?

Let me ask you this- do you honestly, truly think Luis Sojo was as good of an IF coach?

I just don't get you people, and I'm giving up now. There are a half dozen people on this board who have a "Leaving? Well, who needs you anyway!" attitude. No, the Yankees shouldn't make him the manager, and they shouldn't offer him 5 million a year. That does not mean that he will be easy to replace. Jeez.

2007-10-20 10:11:56
185.   monkeypants
184 I cannot say whether he would reach out or not--it's unverifiable. We do have firm evidence that Bowa alienated the Phillies' players when he was there. Did he make close relationships while on the Yankees? Yes. Will the next coach? Probably. Did he bring particular strengths? Certainly. Will he be hard to replace? I doubt it. Coaches in MLB change all the time.

Somehow the team managed to win basically the same number of games before Bowa's arrival as after. He seemed to be an aggressive 3B coach (in a good way). He did a goood job. I'm not convinced this loss means much of anything.

This is all just fabricated drama, but if it fits the narrative that the departure of the 3B coach is an insurmountable obstacle, more evidence of FO and ownership incompetence, and a sure sign of impending implosion--I can go with that too.

2007-10-20 10:13:25
186.   ms october
184 FWIW, I hear ya.
Of course life goes on and we are not losing sleep over the 3rd base coach, but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate any and all contributions that different people have made over the years.
2007-10-20 10:15:31
187.   ms october
And not everything is a narrative. Unlike Chip Carray, I would not show pitch sequences out of order just to fit a story.
2007-10-20 10:17:26
188.   yankz
"if it fits the narrative that the departure of the 3B coach is an insurmountable obstacle"

I'm pretty sure I said the exact opposite of that, but thanks anyway. I guess putting words in my mouth (er, keyboard) fits your narrative, that there's absolutely nothing wrong, at all. All I tried to do was point out that this is yet another hole the Yankees have to plug, and there's a decent chance they don't plug it as well as they did last time.

To repeat what I just said, "I'm giving up now."

2007-10-20 10:18:50
189.   yankz
187 It's much easier to pretend that every human is the same. Bring back Luis Sojo, I say.
2007-10-20 10:25:24
190.   ms october
189 Guess so.
But does that mean we should bring back Luis Sojo or Harry Pelotas?
2007-10-20 10:26:21
191.   Simone
Just read Steven Goldman's NY Sun article and Pinstripe Blog entry on Joe. I'm surprised that he sticks it to Cashman. All these guys love the money and prestige of being with the Yankees no matter what it cost. Kudos to Joe for walking away.

188 Apparently, you missed the memo that the suck the Yankee organization butt narrative is "everyone who leaves the Yankees is useless, have no value, and should be kicked in the ass no matter their contributions." This the mantra of the Randy Levine clones. I'm going to love watching how they react if Levine does play hard ball and Alex Rodriquez he opts out of his contract and leaves the Yankees.

2007-10-20 10:31:06
192.   yankz
191 The discrediting machine has already jumped all over Goldman because it was "inconsistent" with his previous criticisms of Torre (though it really wasn't).
2007-10-20 10:35:07
193.   weeping for brunnhilde
39 Eloquently said, OYF.

Hear, hear.

2007-10-20 10:46:50
194.   Zack
Apparently, Randy Levine has signed up for the job of scape goat and blame all. He must have inherited the job when George retired. Is cashman a Randy Levine clone, b/c he is the one playing "hardball" with A-Rod, which isn't really so much hardball as sound baseball sense. If A-Rod opts out, the Yanks won't really be justified in dropping the full $30 for however many years. I have no problem with taking the hardline with A-Rod.

I don't know, the Yankees never won any playoff series WITH Bowa, and sure, he may have helped Cano with his fielding, but the new 3B coach might help some other player. Every coach we have seems to have some story with some player, whether it is Soho, Willie, Pena, Mattingly, Zimmer, Tuck, Guidry. Its pretty much what those coaches do. I have no worries that Bowa leaving will somehow change anything.

Pena, on the other hand, I think is really valuable as the liaison to the Latino players, which HAS been documented, and I would actually really like to see him get serious consideration for the managerial job. I don't think it will happen, but I think he deserves the shot...

2007-10-20 10:53:13
195.   JL25and3
181 I agree.

Bowa was the best third-base coach I've seen in quite a while, and I wish they had made him the bench coach rather than Mattingly. (I don't think any of us can speak to his value as an infield coach.) One thing I really appreciated was that, last year, he was the first Yankee I ever heard say that Jeter "doesn't get to all the balls that some other shortstops do." ("But he makes up for it in other ways," of course.)

And having said all that, it doesn't really matter. The difference between an average 3b coach and the best in the world is, what, 3 runs a year?

2007-10-20 10:54:52
196.   JL25and3
194 It doesn't matter much to me who the coaches are. Here's the more interesting question: will they allow the new manager to pick his coaches? I'm guessing no.
2007-10-20 10:58:21
197.   Zack
196 It is a good question. Who knows, I mean, if Mattingly does become the coach, who would he choose anyway? How does one even go about doing that?

I imagine the pitching/BP coach will def. be decided by Cashman...

2007-10-20 10:58:57
198.   Zack
195 I'm pretty sure I've heard Girardi say that too...
2007-10-20 11:05:18
199.   RIYank
Zack, I had a little problem parsing 194 , but I don't have any problem with 'hardball' either, especially if that's what it takes to hold on to A-Rod at an affordable price. (Well, it's all relative. Boras will ask for a medium-sized South American country, so if the Yankees end up promising Costa Rica I figure that's a steal.)
2007-10-20 11:22:33
200.   fgasparini
183 So Bowa gets credit for good things that happened when he was around, but takes no blame for bad things. Sweet!

My plan for reversing global warming: harness the hysterical energy of people outraged over the 3B coach leaving.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-20 11:24:33
201.   fgasparini
195 And I agree. From my perspective, I think he must have been good because I can't recall an occasion where I thought "You should have sent him!" or "You should have held him!" Kind of like the umpire you don't notice is the best one.

I thought Bowa was a fine 3B caoch, I'm just not that upset he's leaving.

2007-10-20 11:30:05
202.   JL25and3
Now that we're up to day 3, can we maybe start turning the snark level down a little bit?
2007-10-20 11:42:15
203.   yankz
200 What bad did he do? Who is outraged?

I hate to be that douche, but some people here are getting ridiculous. Nobody is, to quote the resident lady, losing sleep over this. To quote myself, the Yankees shouldn't make him the manager, and they shouldn't offer him 5 million a year.

But some people react to this by saying, "Whatever, he didn't do anything for us anyway." I just don't understand why. Me? It's thanks for the help, Bowa, and happy trails.

2007-10-20 11:44:05
204.   yankz
202 I tried that yesterday, it's not going to work.
2007-10-20 11:46:12
205.   RIYank
200 Hysterical?

I've read over all the comments since the Bowa announcement and I don't see any hysteria. What in particular did you have in mind?

2007-10-20 11:49:11
206.   yankz
You know what would be hilarious?

If Bowa stays.

2007-10-20 11:51:32
207.   yankz
Newdsay, today:

"Bowa would like to stay with the Yankees. His year-round home is outside Philadelphia, and his daughter Tori is in law school on the East Coast. However, he also wants to have a job. Bowa said he probably needs to give the Mariners an answer within the next few days and doesn't expect the Yankees to have a manager that soon. "I had a great time here, great organization. It's the best organization," Bowa said of the Yankees. "But there's no guarantees if you pass something up that something else is going to come along.""

2007-10-20 11:54:45
208.   RIYank
Omagod. He named his daughter after Joe????

jk jk jk

2007-10-20 11:56:06
209.   yankz
208 HA!

I'm kind of wondering where Jeter is. Probably drowning his sorrows in expensive booze and strippers.

2007-10-20 11:57:45
210.   yankz
Leyritz says Girardi isn't the man for the job: http://tinyurl.com/2hs89h

Didn't Girardi take playing time from Leyritz?

2007-10-20 12:26:12
211.   ms october
208 That was stupid. Joe Torre is gone and we shouldn't even be thinking about him.

210 Yeah, Girardi did take pt from him. They were basically opposite players.
Though I do wonder if there is anything to be said that he once played with some of the guys and that could be awkward.

2007-10-20 12:47:26
212.   ms october
More from Boras
http://tinyurl.com/2cye3h
2007-10-20 12:48:36
213.   JL25and3
211 I wonder if Girardi - or Mattingly, for that matter - would be able to tell Jeter that he might need to get a little more rest, or sit down for a few days if he's hurt.
2007-10-20 13:18:22
214.   rilkefan
203 That would be all the "Fuck the front office" people.

Who, I agree, don't exist. See the discussion of 5 . 181 says we should take a balanced view of the impending turnover, and I agree.

2007-10-20 13:24:30
215.   ms october
213 Yeah - good question. Hopefully so. Maybe because I have slightly fallen into the Giradi as no nonsense guy and Donnie as mr. even keel trap, I kind of think Girardi would have an easier time of it.
2007-10-20 15:14:08
216.   Raf
So what exactly did Bowa do to become one of the best 3b coaches in the game today? Is it because he worked with the fielders? Or is it because the Yanks scored a bunch of runs?

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