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Royals Flushed
2007-09-10 05:41
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Hideki Matsui is in a slump yet the Kansas City pitching staff decided time and again to pitch to Alex Rodriguez this weekend. Rodriguez ripped home run #52 off Zach Greinke in the first inning yesterday. He singled in the fifth and scored on Jorge Posada's double. Yes, the Yankees' two best players, Rodriguez and Posada, were at it again yesterday. Chien-Ming Wang didn't feel great, but toughed-out seven innings, Robinson Cano made a nifty defensive play, and Mariano Rivera earned the save as the Yanks beat the Royals, 6-3. The Bombers gained a game on the Tigers, who finally lost to the Mariners, and now lead both teams by four-games in the wildcard standings.

Comments (153)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-09-10 06:09:09
1.   Sliced Bread
Farnsworth was a lot more "worthy" than Duckworth, too.
2007-09-10 06:25:54
2.   Count Zero
The scary thing about Farnsworth is that for the last two weeks he has been pitching well enough to lure people into the mistaken belief that he will be useful in the playoffs. Then as soon as we use him in a crucial situation, he will revert back to Farnsworthless and cost us a PS game by giving up a two walks and a HR in the seventh inning.
2007-09-10 06:31:25
3.   Rob Middletown CT
I worry about the same thing.
2007-09-10 07:05:53
4.   OldYanksFan
2 Not if Torre keeps him on a tight leash. If he walks one, he's probable gone. Walks 2? Torre might choke him to death right on the mound.

You don't trust Farns, but you might have to use him in the 6th or 7th inning. It's up to Torre to hope we see Good Farns, at if not, get him out quick.

2007-09-10 07:06:42
5.   rsmith51
Farns appears to be just ahead of Ramirez and 4th on Torre's bullpen hierarchy. While it may bite the Yanks, I am not too concerned about it. Hopefully he can keep pitching well, but if he doesn't, oh well.
2007-09-10 07:43:27
6.   pistolpete
I think the key is using KK early enough in the game so that we can make up a few runs if we have to. The 6th or 7th seems about right, and only facing the free swingers in the lineup.
2007-09-10 07:50:18
7.   Mattpat11
4 The Yankees should have gotten rid of him when they could.
2007-09-10 08:02:29
8.   aronneil
Farns seems better in low pressure situations. We'll probably get a lot of those in the playoffs. Ramirez is erratic, and Bruney has lost the magic he had last year.

That leaves Mo, Joba, and the Viz (if he can pull it together again).

2007-09-10 08:04:14
9.   mehmattski
Batters against Kyle Farnsworth, 2007

Total: 243 PA .254/.335/.413
Last Month: 37 PA .214/.267/.429

Vs Left: 122 .239/.289/.372
Vs Right: 121 .270/.380/.460

2 Outs, RISP: 29 PA .125/.276/.125
Late & Close: 109 PA: .258/.333/.412
Margin >4 R: 58 PA: .208/.310/.333

0 Days Rest: 21 PA .381/.381/.524
1 Day Rest: 103 PA .270/.353/.506
2 Days Rest: 42 PA .270/.357/.378

Of the 8 homers he's given up, 6 have been solo, the other two were 2-run homers. He has 25 walks in 55 innings, a better ratio than Vizcaino (40 in 68), Bruney (34 in 47), and The Artist Formerly Known as Proctor (29 in 54). His walk rate actually goes down the closer the game is, down to 3 walks in 35 PA in tie games.

I'm not saying that Farnsworth is good, per se, but that he can still be an effective pitcher when used correctly. If we have the Joba Rules, why can't we have the Farnsworth Rules? Doesn't it make sense to have different teams of relievers who are all about the same effectiveness who are ready on different nights? Today is Joba and Viz, tomorrow is Farns and Edwar. Every reliever (other than Mo) should have a day off after the pitch an inning, two days if they pitch two innings. If the bullpen is constructed correctly, with guys who are all pretty good, there should be no appreciable difference between using the guy who is #2 and the guy who is #4.

2007-09-10 08:13:52
10.   weeping for brunnhilde
Btw, I just have to rave about Chien-Ming, yet again.

As Alex recognizes, the guy really toughed it out yesterday, as he often does.

It's just such a revelation to see a guy who can go out there and figure it out when he needs to. Seems to me that for a kid his age, that's spectacular.

I know this will sound preposterous and premature and over the top, but what the hell: this guy can win 300 games if he stays healthy.

Meaning, to watch him pitch now, it seems a reasonable bet to presume that as he ages and his stuff deteriorates, he still might be able to scrap out enough wins to stay competitive on the major league level.

I don't know, I just love watching a pitcher who can win without his best stuff, who can fall apart in one inning and yet still rebound to keep the game in hand.

Duque, Pettitte, Wang, old Moose. Music to my ears, so to speak.

As you were...

2007-09-10 08:27:29
11.   Count Zero
9 Saying somebody has given up less walks than Bruney is kind of a backhanded compliment isn't it? It's kind of like saying a country has less suicide bombers than Iraq.

I don't care how you slice it -- a 1.44 WHIP and 1.80 K/BB sucks for a late inning reliever. Especially when you consider that with 58 appearances, he is the only reliever who was on the opening day roster that can't blame it on being overused.

Don't get me wrong -- I would love him for to be a PS success. I just doubt it will happen.

2007-09-10 08:37:58
12.   Shaun P
11 Me too, but the best part about the postseason is that, in such a small sample, anything can happen - including Farnsworth being an effective, even dominant, reliever.

And really, wouldn't that be the best possible outcome? It would make him all the easier to trade this offseason, when some foolish team will be looking for a "C"loser who throws really, really fast; they'll overlook his past and over-emphasize his postseason success..

2007-09-10 08:44:06
13.   Mattpat11
Sending Farnsworth and Edwar Ramirez in the same game might as well be the white flag.
2007-09-10 08:55:17
14.   monkeypants
11 It may be a backhanded compliment, but the reality is that the team must pick the "best" relivers out of the lot they have. If the Whacker is better than Bruney, then he more deserves to make the post-season roster.

I'm not saying that he is better, only that at this pijnt in teh season it is not relevant to talk about who is "good" in an absolute sense.

2007-09-10 08:59:10
15.   monkeypants
11 BTW, Viz's 1.37 WHIP is not much less scary, and his 1.33 K/BB is even worse!
2007-09-10 09:08:48
16.   mehmattski
13 I disagree. Your hatred of both pitchers is well on record, of course. I think that a progression of Farns-Edwar-Mo would be just as effective as VIz-Joba-Mo in the late innings of a close ball game. Hitters having to adjust from whichever starter to Farnsworth's fastball and then back to Edwar's changeup has the potential to be devestating- we saw something similar a few games ago when it went Joba-Edwar-Mo... the hitters were absolutely lost.

Edwar, FWIW, has walked 4 batters in his last 12 innings after the debacle against Tampa back in July. He's thrown 120 of his 180 pitches for strikes. In effect, he's had 12 big league appearances- three bad, two okay, and seven stellar apperances. One of his bad ones, against the Rays again on 9/2, he had a phenomenal inning and then was rocked in his second inning. And his 21:8 K:BB ratio is best on the team for anyone not named Mo or Joba. Give the kid a chance.

2007-09-10 09:18:58
17.   williamnyy23
16 I agree with you about Edwar. Most of his failures seem to stem from giving up HRs. I think he can solve that problem with better pitch selection. His stuff is way too effective to give up on him. Having said that, I am not sure how you could suggest that any combination without Joba would be as effective as one with him.

As for Farnsworth, I simply do not trust him in a big spot...I can only hope Joe feels the same way. After all, my biggest concern about the postseason isn't the quality of the team's relievers, but how Joe will use them.

2007-09-10 09:21:33
18.   williamnyy23
10 Wang is already 27, so 300 is almost entirely out of the question. He'd pretty much have to win 19 games every year until he was 40 to make it.
2007-09-10 09:26:45
19.   weeping for brunnhilde
18 Yeah, well, there you have it.

Shame, huh?

27 already?

Nevertheless, he's a fine pitcher. :)

2007-09-10 09:29:23
20.   Mattpat11
Kyle Farnsworth has always had that fastball. He's been nothing but a middling late inning reliever for his entire relief career.

Why should I expect that NOW is going to be any different? NOW the teams are going to finally be baffled by his pinstraight fastball?

And I'm sorry, but I will no trust someone in late innings that gives up as many homeruns as Edwar Ramirez.

2007-09-10 09:31:58
21.   seamus
20 he Isn't going to change. But middling as he has been, he has had runs of excellent pitching for several outings in a row which he remains capable of. Will he do it? I doubt it, but it is possible and feasible.
2007-09-10 09:41:13
22.   Chyll Will
I wish Edwar could/would learn the cut fastball from Mo. With his changeup, that would be devastating. That's kinda the reverse of what Mo's tried to do this year (develop a change).
2007-09-10 09:44:56
23.   Sliced Bread
What's the word on Clemens? Has he thrown since he got his shot? Still on track to go against Schilling on Sunday?
Anybody have his cellphone #?

I'd kinda like to see him throw an inning against the Jays before inking him in for Boston.

2007-09-10 09:48:51
24.   seamus
23 1-800-cle-mens
2007-09-10 09:56:35
25.   Chyll Will
23 867-5309
2007-09-10 09:57:09
26.   monkeypants
20 "He's been nothing but a middling late inning reliever for his entire relief career."

Mostly true, except for:

2001, 77 INN, 2.74 ERA, 154 ERA+, 1.146 WHIP
2003, 76 INN, 3.30 ERA, 129 ERA+, 1.166 WHIP
2005, 70 INN, 2.19 ERA, 198 ERA+, 1.014 WHIP

2007-09-10 09:57:47
27.   seamus
25 i'm pretty sure i tried dialing that as a youngster.
2007-09-10 10:01:42
28.   Sliced Bread
24 given his love for the letter "K" I'm gonna dial Houston area code 555-5555.
2007-09-10 10:16:27
29.   Zack
20 Well, thanks for sharing with us who you don't trust. Duly noted, and we'll let the Yankees know.
2007-09-10 10:17:08
30.   Mattpat11
26 I factored those years in. If I had not, I would have used a far less flattering word than "middling"

As a reliever on his career he has a 1.40 WHIP and a 4.04 ERA.

2007-09-10 10:20:39
31.   joejoejoe
Fun fact: No third baseman* has ever hit more home runs in a season than A-Rod this year.

*except on Nintendo

2007-09-10 10:23:02
32.   Sliced Bread
Just left a message for somebody in Houston. Not sure if it was casa des Clemens.

Wouldn't wait by the Banter for the definitive word on Rocket from me.

2007-09-10 10:25:36
33.   bob34957
20 Farnsworth has had sufficient rest over the previous month to aid in his effectiveness. Quit ragging on him. Are you his girlfriend?
2007-09-10 10:36:23
34.   thelarmis
25 hysterical!

27 yeah, i think everyone did! the funny thing is that the "867" exchange was a main one at penn state, where i went to school. of course, every one and their brother called it. by my sophomore year, the # was taken out of service. it's been many years and i still think it's a non-working phone number. i'm surprised it even worked during my freshman year...

i believe clemens threw in Houston the other day, will be in Toronto tomorrow and will pitch at the Fens next weekened.

i'm just wondering if Cliff will be back from vacation by tomorrow to post his Blue Jays team preview before the series starts. man, do i love those things! : )

2007-09-10 10:40:47
35.   Sliced Bread
34 where'd you get that on Rog? Last I saw Joe hadn't heard from Clemens and didn't know if he threw.

not saying I don't believe you, of course, just haven't seen anything.

2007-09-10 10:43:24
36.   Bama Yankee
32 Did you try one of these:
http://tinyurl.com/2w7prh

Wait a minute, he is too smart for that, he probably went with something more like this one:
http://tinyurl.com/3a273l
(I also liked that one because it was on Alabama St ;-)

Even if you could get his number, would it really help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEd3pS1jXJ4

2007-09-10 10:51:03
37.   monkeypants
30 Right, but the point is that he has been middling overall, with some appalling years and some very good years. As 16 points out, he has had streaks of effectiveness--in some cases they last a year, in some cases a few weeks. Therefore, running him out there is not an automatic admission of defeat, but rather a volatile gamble.

Whatver the case, the whole discussion is, I contend, not very relevant. If we assume that the team makes the post season, they will have to select the bullpen from an unsavory menu. And I am not convinced that right now Farnswhacker is not in the better half of the available options.

And that IS damning with faint praise.

2007-09-10 10:51:42
38.   JL25and3
Thanks, guys. Now I've got that ridiculous song stuck in my head. In fact, since I don't know the rest of the song at all, it's just the freakin' phone number going around and around and around...

31 It was even more impressive when he did it as a shortstop.

2007-09-10 10:51:51
39.   Chyll Will
36 "Somehow, I just can't imagine Mr. Clemens having any bankrupcy issues at this particular time..."

- Alan Greenspan

2007-09-10 10:56:17
40.   JL25and3
37 But that's what middle relievers do; with very few exceptions, they're not consistent from year to year. That's why they're middle relievers (and why it's silly to throw money at them).
2007-09-10 10:58:54
41.   Bama Yankee
39 LOL. Good one.
2007-09-10 11:03:03
42.   Mattpat11
37 I will agree that in this poorly constructed bullpen, Farnsworth is not the worst available option.

The thing that infuriates me more than anything about Farnsworth isn't that he's so mediocre. Its all the restrictions that come with this mediocrity. He can't pitch two days in a row. He can't come in in the middle of the inning. He can't pitch two innings in a row (Fuck, even Joba can do that)

If Kyle could reasonably expected to perform like Joba, you could sort of live with it.

But Kyle performs at the dime a dozen level for right handed relievers and is completely un versatile. We could find someone in ten seconds that can match Kyle's production while being a little flexible. Kyle's a hindrance to this team.

2007-09-10 11:03:23
43.   thelarmis
35 ooh, who knows. i know i read it somewhere, perhaps off a pete abe link, or something. it could be old news that was never confirmed, i guess...? perhaps what i wrote, was the "plan" and no one is sure if it is indeed reality...

either way, i would expect roger to show up at the old rogers centre and then kick some major ass in beantown next weekend. with a great week this week, we can really make a push for the division and tie up the wild card, as a backup...

2007-09-10 11:19:19
44.   Sliced Bread
43 This is the latest I've seen on Clemens from Pete Abe:

"Torre sent an e-mail to Roger Clemens before the game, asking how he was feeling and was still waiting to hear back from him. Clemens has been out of touch since going to Houston on Wednesday to get a cortisone shot in his right elbow."

Anyway, I hope you're right, thelarmis.

2007-09-10 11:28:57
45.   3rd gen yankee fan
Jenny Jenny who can I turn to
You give me somethin I can hold onto
2007-09-10 11:31:35
46.   Chyll Will
44 Torre seems to have a lot of problems communicating with players when they're not in the clubhouse, huh?
2007-09-10 11:34:35
47.   Chyll Will
45 Ssshh, you're gonna make JL's head explode 38 >;)
2007-09-10 11:43:04
48.   monkeypants
40 No argument here. They saw that sparkling 2005 and thought that was the "real" Farnsworth. They were wrong.

42 Again, no argument on the macro-level. But right now he is sadly one of the more viable options. And as restricting as his self-imposed rules are, they can be (indeed must be) worked around.

2007-09-10 12:02:21
49.   bartap74
0 [i]The Bombers gained a game on the Tigers, who finally lost to the Mariners, and now lead both teams by four-games in the wildcard standings.[/i]

According to the standings on Yahoo, the Yanks are 4 up on Detroit and [b]5[/b] up on Seattle.

2007-09-10 12:05:28
50.   Mattpat11
49 loss column.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-09-10 12:09:24
51.   Mattpat11
48 They can be worked around if we had a good bullpen. We do not. Which is why, IMO, it was foolish to subtract from the bullpen and still keep Kyle at the deadline.
2007-09-10 12:09:31
52.   Mattpat11
48 They can be worked around if we had a good bullpen. We do not. Which is why, IMO, it was foolish to subtract from the bullpen and still keep Kyle at the deadline.
2007-09-10 12:25:12
53.   JL25and3
47 Nah, that's OK. I wouldn't have recognized those lyrics except for the context of the discussion. I meant what I said quite literally - those 7 numbers are all I know of the song. So that's what I'm stuck with, on an endless loop - 8-6-7-5-3-0-nah-ah-ine, 8-6-7-5-3-0-nah-ah-ine...
2007-09-10 12:30:14
54.   Bob B
Bettermitt saved a lead off hit for Fransworth. I don't trust him at all except with a BIG lead. Don;t forget, his recent outings have been against KC, Tampa etc. Not exactly the Redsox, Angels or Cleveland. Would you put him out there against any of them?
2007-09-10 12:36:25
55.   monkeypants
52 But what was subtracted? A player with a shot arm, which was used to get a decent BUIF (resulting in the long overdue jettison of Cairo). Now, you could argue that the subsequent DFA of Myers was the wrong move, though I'm not sure he was any more valuable than Farnsworth--save for his willingness to absorb innings in the occasional blowout. But even then, Myers was DFA'd during that great shuffle after August 1, when Hughes was recalled and the entire bench was remade. Someone had to go, and the team felt that Farnsworth (among others) had more value than Myers.

Really, your beef with the Yankees--if you look back at old posts--is that they didn't just release Farnsworth at the deadline when (if?) they were unable (unwilling?) to trade him. Since that is your starting assumption, there is no that he can be used that will satisfy you, since you calculated long ago that he such a detriment to the team that he was a candidate for addition by subtraction.

2007-09-10 12:37:51
56.   monkeypants
54 No, but who is the alternative? Mo, Joba, and....

What other player in the system would you use? What other player who was released/traded would you have kept to face the Sox? Myers? Proctor?

2007-09-10 12:40:48
57.   Bama Yankee
Farnsy, Farsny who can we turn to
A lead is something you can't hold on to
I know you thought we'd be like the others before
Who saw you clocked at 100 on the gun

Farnsy we've seen your numbers
We need to make a trade
Farnsy you can't change your numbers
4 point 7 5 E R A
4 point 7 5 E R A

2007-09-10 12:45:54
58.   Sliced Bread
57 excellent!
2007-09-10 12:52:03
59.   Sliced Bread
54 actually, his last ten appearances included 6 shutout innings against Detroit, Anaheim, and Seattle (who until a few days a go was still in it).

To you point, his worst game over that span was vs Boston, but those were the only 2 runs he's given up in about a month.

2007-09-10 12:53:24
60.   Mattpat11
You're right. I see no way Kyle Farnsworth will help this team in the playoffs. I do think the Yankee refusal to dump him, along with a few other, is indicative of a problem where the front office refuses to admit mistakes.

I'm not going to back down on my feelings on Farnsworth because he's on a nice run. I think he's a mediocre who's self imposed restrictions make him worthless. I think the team is setting itself up for failure by trusting this goof, and I absolutely think he's going to bite us in the ass, and the fact that everyone would have seen it coming is infuriating.

2007-09-10 13:05:32
61.   pistolpete
54 The Indians don't scare me at all. I'd let Villone, Henn and Farnsworth all take a turn.
2007-09-10 13:10:41
62.   yankz
60 Oh yeah, you nailed it. Those stubborn jackasses refused to admit mistakes by holding on to Randy Johnson and Jaret Wright. I can't believe they re-signed Terrence Long instead of calling up Melky. And what the fuck is up with May and Redding being in the rotation but none of the stud pitching prospects they drafted? I wish they weren't so god damn stubborn!!!!!!
2007-09-10 13:44:40
63.   AbbyNormal821
57 Dude - that raaaawks! Break out your skinny tie and do the 80's dance to that tune! Come on now, Bama, I know you know it, ...that skippy, jumpy side-to-side, snap your fingers dance a la Carlton from "Fresh Prince of Bel Air"!!!
2007-09-10 13:49:34
64.   domvjr
Be careful what you wish for redux. For all who are hoping the Yanks play the Indians, if they win the Wild Card. I remember last year, when everyone was excited to play the Tigers, because they played like crap the last week of the season. We all remember how that turned out!
2007-09-10 13:52:04
65.   Chyll Will
57 Dude, we must be related somehow...
2007-09-10 13:53:11
66.   Chyll Will
63 Jinx >;)
2007-09-10 13:56:58
67.   Yankee Fan In Boston
61 wow. just reading that sentence made me a bit woozy.
2007-09-10 13:57:56
68.   yankz
64 I think it's more "anyone but LAA" than "only CLE."
2007-09-10 13:57:56
69.   Bama Yankee
63 Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKlxjbhB9HE
2007-09-10 13:58:50
70.   Bama Yankee
63 Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKlxjbhB9HE
2007-09-10 14:00:04
71.   yankz
63 Yo...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3pPtrMH2ARM

2007-09-10 14:01:29
72.   AbbyNormal821
69 EXACTLY! (and watching that almost made me spew water out my nose!) That's some funny sh*t right there!
2007-09-10 14:05:12
73.   yankz
69 Hey, mine's better!

What a fantastic show.

2007-09-10 14:05:34
74.   Bama Yankee
58 ,63 & 65 Thanks

69 & 70 Not sure how that happened, sorry for the double posts... Carlton in stereo, perhaps?

2007-09-10 14:06:03
75.   Chyll Will
61 Yeah! We no-need no steenkin' bullpen!!!
2007-09-10 14:09:02
76.   yankz
Fine Bama, yours is more topical, but mine is more diverse.
2007-09-10 14:09:52
77.   Bama Yankee
73 Yeah, yours was better. This one always cracks me up too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUYQVXPv27k
2007-09-10 14:11:16
78.   yankz
77 Duuude, I watched that one second. Awesome.
2007-09-10 14:20:25
79.   Bama Yankee
78 We've gone from Tommy Tutone to Tom Jones to the Sugar Hill Gang... Dontcha just love off days ;-)
2007-09-10 14:24:43
80.   yankz
77 Hey, don't forget Beastie Boys/Fatboy Slim in between.
2007-09-10 14:37:51
81.   Chyll Will
79 I totally forgot today was an off-day. I gotta come up with a short story here...
2007-09-10 15:03:50
82.   AbbyNormal821
Peace out for now, kids - work is over, the gym beckons (trying to ignore, but can't). Everyone have a good evening!!!
2007-09-10 15:35:40
83.   Schteeve
I was pissed that the Yankees kept him at the deadline, but if they weren't getting anything back for him, why give him up?

I think he sucks, but I reject the notion that there a bunch of better right handed relievers than him falling out of the trees. Most right handed relievers who aren't absolute studs, have suckish tendencies.

2007-09-10 16:03:27
84.   Mattpat11
62 I've said this before, but I really don't think its just a coincidence who this team got rid of for whomever and who they held on to the bitter end. Randy Johnson, Gary Sheffield and Jaret Wright went out and Carl Pavano was made a prominent member of the starting rotation. So he could "build his value back up"

And then in a shocking development, he did not.

The bullpen is a disaster, so we trade the moderately effective one and keep the mess. So he can build his value back up.

Someone actually wanted fucking Kei Igawa for Christ knows why. But he stayed. But Jaret Wright was traded for a guy the team apparently forgot they had until September.

2007-09-10 16:05:07
85.   Mattpat11
83 There are a ton of right handed relievers that can give you Kyle's "production" that might actually be able to pitch two innings at a time.
2007-09-10 16:12:21
86.   yankz
84 Nowhere in that comment do I see a response to mine. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything.
2007-09-10 16:18:05
87.   Mattpat11
And you haven't responded to my points.

Why does the "equal value in return" policy only apply to certain players? And frankly, only "New York" signed players? You can apparently get someone the "Tampa Faction" signed for a song.

2007-09-10 16:28:07
88.   3rd gen yankee fan
57 Excellent.
2007-09-10 16:31:48
89.   3rd gen yankee fan
57 We got it, we got it
We got your numbers on the wall
We got it, we got it
For a good time, for a good time brawl!!!
2007-09-10 16:43:39
90.   yankz
87 That was the thing- I didn't think you made any points that I had to address. Again, not trying to be a dick, it was just the whole two ships in the night thing.

I don't know what this "New York" vs "Tampa" distinction is. I just know that they got a ton of value for Wright (injured for the year) and Unit (injured for the year and probably forever). The Sheffield deal was heralded by nearly everyone here, including Jim Dean (RIP), but we'll have to wait to see how that turns out.

I just think you're being ridiculous when you demand that they get ripped off by trading a dollar for a dime. Farnsworth cleared waivers, remember? Nobody wanted him. SD apparently wanted Igawa, but apparently they were offering crap. Igawa is literally blocking nobody and has some upside, so why not wait to see if he can put something together? Seriously, what's the cost? Pavano- I'll give you that, huge mistake all around. I'm sure Cash would even admit that in private.

You're again forgetting how many "old vets" the organization has cut in favor of kids they have drafted. I would say that changing your entire god damn player acquisition strategy is admitting a huge mistake. I give them tons of credit for that. I bet you would never have guessed that the Yanks would have Kennedy in their rotation over a deadline deal like Buehrle.

2007-09-10 16:45:08
91.   yankz
And wait, you think the Proctor/Betemit trade was a bad one?
2007-09-10 17:31:43
92.   bob34957
87 matt is Kyle Farnsworth, your new Carl Pavano!!!
2007-09-10 17:39:08
93.   yankz
Wow, the dude over at The Bronx Block (the same guy who "announced" the Gagne deal- thank god his "source" was bullshit) argued that Justin Morneau was the rightful MVP last year...because he had more RBI than Jeter.
2007-09-10 18:39:02
94.   Start Spreading the News
93 Let's not be quick on the Gagne deal. He took time to adjust to the new league. But look at his latest numbers, since giving up 3 runs to the Angles on 8/17, he has pitched 4 outings and not given up a run.

Would you rather have him than Farnsworth?

2007-09-10 18:45:48
95.   JeremyM
94 He's also hurt with a sore shoulder and hasn't pitched since August 26th. He's supposed to be available today, so we'll see. Also, for what it's worth, he had already been in the AL all year with Texas.
2007-09-10 18:47:27
96.   Bama Yankee
88 Thanks.
89 Very nice. "good time brawl" LOL (not a bad reason to keep him around, BTW)
2007-09-10 18:50:31
97.   RIYank
94 I'm pretty sure the Rangers weren't offering Gagne for Farnsworth.

Scot Kazmir has just over two years of ML service. When will he be a free agent? He made the Sox look silly tonight, seven innings no runs, only one Bostonian reached second base. Now the Sox are flailing against the D-Ray bullpen: 1-0 Rays through eight!

We should have Farnsworth pitch the sixth or seventh some night against TB when we have a five run lead. He'll be impressive, and they'll take him as part of a package for Kazmir. We'll pay most of Farns's salary.

2007-09-10 18:51:43
98.   Mattpat11
90 Injury concerns might be valid if they didn't decide to make Carl Pavano a prominent member of the 2007 starting rotation. They were so worried about Wright, Sheffield and Johnson's injury problem's, but felt just fine about Pavano's? That makes sense.

And you are NEVER going to get anything close to fair value for the likes of Farnsworth and that contract. It was an awful, hair brained signing that didn't make any sense then and sure as shit hasn't made any sense since. If your top priority is winning, you bite the bullet and remove the problem from the team, regardless of cost. You can't use your own mistake as the basis for Farnsworth's current value. You unload his useless ass and offer to pay whatever it takes. We can pay him to hurt us or we can pay him to hurt someone else. I'll take B.

Of course, if you don't want to admit that it was a disaster signing, you can hold on to him til the end of time (Much like Carl Pavano) cross your fingers and hope against all reason for the best.

And for the love of Christ, someone wanted Kei Igawa! But we weren't happy with what was offered? Because maybe if we keep him around long enough he'll stop ignoring what the pitching coaches are telling him and live up to that 46 million? Maybe he'll reach the lofty standards of "long man" that all the experts were predicting to begin with? This signing was never a good idea. Unless he mysterious exceeds all expectations, its never going to be a good idea. Holding on to him, closing your eyes, plugging your ears and humming loudly will not make it look like good idea.

And they were well along the way to changing their player acquisition strategy. And then they plunked down 46 mil for a minor leaguer.

2007-09-10 18:55:10
99.   Mattpat11
94 Gagne was pitching for Texas.

92 No one will ever match Carl Pavano. At least Worthless tries

He just sucks.

Carl sucks on the very rare occasions when he tries.

2007-09-10 18:56:05
100.   Mattpat11
1st and 3rd 2 out bottom nine for Granderson
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-09-10 18:57:10
101.   Mattpat11
Inge stole second on DI. second and third, still 4-1.
2007-09-10 18:57:55
102.   Mattpat11
two run single.
2007-09-10 18:58:59
103.   JeremyM
100 They left Halladay out there way too long, if Detroit wins this it would really suck. They've been like cockroaches this year.
2007-09-10 19:02:36
104.   JeremyM
Toronto is so getting ready to blow it...
2007-09-10 19:04:40
105.   JeremyM
Magglio up, bases loaded, 2 outs.
2007-09-10 19:04:47
106.   RIYank
Sox lose 1-0.
2007-09-10 19:05:10
107.   JeremyM
Dammit, Detroit won.
2007-09-10 19:05:18
108.   Mike T
Tampa 1-0 Boston Final
2007-09-10 19:05:42
109.   JeremyM
Toronto realized the Yanks stood to gain a half game and got some revenge for HA!
2007-09-10 19:07:32
110.   Mattpat11
WATCH OUT EVERYONE. THE BLUE JAYS ARE GOING TO RUN OVER THE LEAGUE! THEY HAVE LYLE OVERBAY!

I want to hear on ESPN tonight. "The Toronto Blue Jays are a lousy team. They are lousy this year. They were lousy last year. We couldn't have possibly been more wrong when we named them a top contender. They are not a contender, nor will they be anytime soon.

2007-09-10 19:08:37
111.   RIYank
Quite a comeback by the Tiggers. We'll have to remember that if we find ourselves three runs behind in the ninth this week.

Hey, so who's going to bean a Jay in this coming series? Bruney?

2007-09-10 19:11:52
112.   RIYank
Overbay is the sixth worst batter to have on your team in all of baseball, if you go by Win Probability Added. He just edges out Juan Pierre.
2007-09-10 19:14:04
113.   rsmith51
They took out Halladay with 2 outs in the ninth. I guess they should have let him finish it.
2007-09-10 19:16:48
114.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
I'm not unhappy that the Tigers pulled it out.

First, the Jays confidence will be at rock bottom going into our series.

Second, now that we're within 4 losses of the Sawx I'm smelling blood in the water. But what's the fun of winning the division if the Sawx make the playoffs anyway? We need the Tigers to start reeling in some games on the Sawx so they can take the wildcard from Bahston. That's one game for them tonight.

2007-09-10 19:17:09
115.   JeremyM
I'm a worrier when it comes to baseball, but man, I hope that game doesn't bite back. The Tigers were about to be 'game over', and now they once again found a couple 1-ups and are still alive. Yanks need to take 2 of 3 from Toronto for sure.
2007-09-10 19:19:26
116.   Mattpat11
112 Excuse me. ESPN told me that with the acquisition of Lyle Overbay, the Blue Jays were the favorites in the AL East. Does that sound like someone that's the sixth worst anything?

Maybe my sixth worst nightmare as a Yankee fan! He's coming for us!

2007-09-10 19:20:39
117.   Mattpat11
115 If the Tigers come back to beat us, I'm going to look at the game where the Yankees were walking to first in a one run game against Todd Jones.
2007-09-10 19:26:40
118.   Start Spreading the News
95 99 My bad. I was still thinking of Gagne from the days with the Dodgers

97 I wasn't saying that Farnsworth could be traded for Gagne. I was just comparing the Red Sox's overpriced relievers who were hurting them vs our overpriced relievers who were hurting us. So of the two, I would rather have Gagne. Health would be a concern for him but you have a month to get him healthy. Farnsworth's problem is his head. That may never be resolved.

110 Let's hope they keep sucking. We still have six games against them.

Eccentricities of baseball: We are 3-6 against LA who in turn is 2-5 against KC who in turn is 1-9 against us.

2007-09-10 19:29:29
119.   Start Spreading the News
112 positively womackian!
2007-09-10 19:32:19
120.   yankz
98 OK seriously, this is getting old. I really don't see anything in there that I haven't already covered. If someone else does please go ahead.

Why do people still watch ESPN, if they say things like Lyle Overbay will carry the Jays to a division championship? I haven't voluntarily watched BBTN in over a year, so I have no idea if they actually do say things like that.

2007-09-10 19:34:53
121.   yankz
118 I'd probably trade Farns for Gagne, assuming the injury wasn't as serious as the ones in his past. But that was never an option; the deal was Kennedy for Gagne, which I'm glad they didn't do.

On another note, I think I hurt my hammy today. The Yankee epidemic spreads even to fans!

2007-09-10 19:38:35
122.   Mattpat11
I pulled strained groin the other day. I've been in a pissy mood ever since
2007-09-10 19:49:21
123.   Mattpat11
121 I just get very annoyed when I see what I perceived is the team repeating the Pavano strategy with Farnsworth and Igawa

"Do nothing and hope it all works itself out on its own so you look good in the end"

2007-09-10 19:51:24
124.   JimCobain
121 We know, we know...
2007-09-10 19:52:34
125.   Start Spreading the News
114 I am not counting on that scenario playing out.

Sox have a pretty easy schedule left: 5 vs Tampa, 3 vs NYY, 3 vs Tor, 2 vs Oak, 4 vs Minn. Expected wins: 10

Yanks: 7 vs Tor, 3 vs Bos, 6 vs Bal, 3 vs Tampa. Expected wins: 13. Warning Note: we can't beat Baltimore and Toronto has an awesome pitching staff.

Detroit: 3 vs Tex, 6 vs Minn, 3 vs Clev, 3 vs KC, 3 vs WSox. Expected Wins: 11

My prediction: Boston has 97 wins. Yanks have 94 and Detroit has 89 wins.

Still hoping for a Boston choke, though...

2007-09-10 19:54:44
126.   yankz
123 Amazing that you know that that's their mantra. I always thought it was more along the lines of Dwight Schrute's: "Would an idiot do that? If the answer is yes, I don't do it."

Feel free to respond, but I'm done.

124 You know about my hammy? I'm being stalked!

2007-09-10 19:55:47
127.   yankz
125 You know what would absolutely suck? Finishing a game behind Boston.
2007-09-10 19:57:42
128.   tommyl
Did anyone just catch the "Cy Young discussion" on baseball tonight? Orel Hersisher just basically said, to him, its all about the wins, because a good pitcher will sometimes give up a hit, or a walk, or even a homerun if he's up and wants to pitch an extra inning.

That's right folks, you heard it here first. Those stupid K rates, walk rates, hit rates, homer rates and runs given up are worthless.

Oh dear, and now Steve Phillips just said that Wang is less valuable because he tends to win games by a huge margin, whereas Beckett just barely wins. Ergo, the Yankee offense supports Wang more (which is true) so he's not as valuable. Seriously, they are penalizing Wang for winning by a lot of runs. Stupid CMW, you're supposed to see you're up by 5 runs, then walk the bases loaded, give up a homer so you can pitch an extra inning and only win by 1.

2007-09-10 20:19:43
129.   thelarmis
128 i know, i know. i had to turn that off. orel talking about giving up homers on purpose, at will, to pitch longer, when one has a lead. unbelievable. kruk, who wants to give the cy to wang, cares only about pitcher Wins and about threw up when he heard the word WHIP. incredible, the dumbasses they have on that show...

still, it's about the only place i can get and see highlights. it's unfortunate...

2007-09-10 20:19:56
130.   thelarmis
128 i know, i know. i had to turn that off. orel talking about giving up homers on purpose, at will, to pitch longer, when one has a lead. unbelievable. kruk, who wants to give the cy to wang, cares only about pitcher Wins and about threw up when he heard the word WHIP. incredible, the dumbasses they have on that show...

still, it's about the only place i can get and see highlights. it's unfortunate...

2007-09-10 20:20:12
131.   JL25and3
128 There actually is a point in there, even if it's accidental. Much as I loathe Beckett, he's been a better pitcher than Wang this year. W-L record is the only case to make for Wang to be Cy Young winner over Beckett - and Wang's run support is a real factor there.
2007-09-10 20:20:30
132.   thelarmis
doh! sorry for the double post, all...
2007-09-10 20:26:20
133.   yankz
I don't see how Sabathia doesn't get it. He's way ahead in IP, with similar if not better rate stats. He'll probably lose votes for being chubby or something.
2007-09-10 20:28:47
134.   monkeypants
84 90 123 et al. It's bullshit to say that the Yankees made Pavano a "prominent" member of the staff in 2007. He came in battling for the #5 spot with Rasner and Igawa. It was only injuries to Wang and Pettitte, and the randomness of the rotation at the beginning of the year that led to him starting opening day. He won his second start and then was done for the year. At no point did the team 'rely" on him, or make him the cornerstone of the rotation. He got starts because of injury, then he went away.

You can criticize the team for overrating Igawa, no doubt. But to say that the team saw Pavano as anything more than a stopgap this season is to deny the historical circumstances of his brief appearance this season.

2007-09-10 20:39:34
135.   Max
125 I agree...if anything, I think we're going to sweat a little over the next two weeks, because we don't have any AL Central teams left on our schedule. Kind of scary to think that the Jays, O's and Tampa Bay aren't going to be a cakewalk, but I'm not sold on our ability to breeze through those games based on having only two good starters and two good relievers.

We should handle most of the games and make Boston sweat a little while building the WC lead. But I'm not yet ready to put my complete faith in the team, since I still don't know on a given day which version of the Yankees is going to show up.

2007-09-10 20:41:10
136.   Mattpat11
I'm not talking about opening day. I'm talking about creating a five man rotation that had Carl Pavano in it period.

Putting him in IMMEDIATELY puts the Yankees in a hole where at some point in the season they're going to have to resort to stop gap measures when he fell to either injury or ineffectiveness, as his his specialties.

And I don't recall him being anything but the team's fourth starter . There were idiots raving about the possibility of having a "former 18 game winner!!!!!!" in the fourth spot of the rotation. The only question was whether Igawa would start in the pen or not.

I just don't understand how a pretty damn competent front office could turn around and build a team that expected Carl Pavano to take the ball every five days and do it effectively.

The only thing that makes sense to me is they were hoping against all reason that Carl could elevate this from "worst acquisition in franchise history" to "bad move"

2007-09-10 20:43:56
137.   yankz
OK, that just confirmed it for me. Mattpat scans posts looking for key terms like "Farnsworth" or "Igawa" while completely ignoring things like "He came in battling for the #5 spot with Rasner and Igawa."
2007-09-10 20:50:56
138.   Mattpat11
Furthermore, if Carl Pavano was just kept around as an insurance policy that could battle for a spot in the rotation and be used as a stopgap, I want to know what fucking moron looked at this man, looked at his history, looked at his attitude and said "there's my safety net!"

Probably the same morons that looked at him, his history and his attitude and said "Lets give him 40 million!" but thats a horse of another color.

2007-09-10 20:51:27
139.   Mattpat11
137 And who was going to be the fourth starter in this scenario?
2007-09-10 20:57:30
140.   monkeypants
136 Again, you exaggerate the teams expectations for Pavano. His contract was an albatross, no doubt--so they were stuck with him or they could cut hi. They chose to keep him; since the salaray was a sunk cost, this was a low risk move. The starting staff at the start of the year was Wang, Pettitte and Mussina, and some combination of Igawa, Pavano, RAsner, etc.

everybody KNEW Hughes was coming; everybody KNEW Clemens was a strong possibility. Hell, here is a website that intimated that anything the Yankees got from Pavano would be gravy--and this prediction was in february 2007: http://american-baseball-league.suite101.com/article.cfm/2007_mlb_preview_new_york_yankees

No sensible person, including the Yankees FO thought that Pavano would take the ball every five days this season. Best case scenario, he captured some pixie dust and was an effective starter. realistic scenario, he warmed the bench and ate a some starts until Clemens or Hughes or whoever took his spot. What heppned--he pitched in two games, won one, and then went away.

Keep raging against the machine if you want, but the historical circumstances deny your analysis.

2007-09-10 21:18:07
141.   Mattpat11
You directed me to a website that claims Kei Igawa throws a bullet hard fastball with a lot of movement. Forgive me if I take anything else they say with a grain of salt.

Hughes wasn't supposed to come until close to the allstar break. And Clemens is a bold faced liar, who, at best, wasn't supposed to start pitching at the big league level until some time in the end of June.

They thought Pavano was going to last two and a half months/or being effective for two and a half months? They thought Rasner/Igawa were good enough to keep a team afloat for two and a half months in the best division in baseball?

Who the hell scouts for this team?

2007-09-10 21:25:19
142.   yankz
141 OK, so now your argument is no longer "Pavano is the fourth starter, they all suck!" but rather "Pavano for 2.5 months, they suck even more!" Reasonable.

Who else was available, again? Some combination of Karstens/Rasner/Igawa/Pavano/other kids in the minors was the best available until Roger and Phil were ready. Unless you think they should have traded for Mark Buehrle.

2007-09-10 21:27:07
143.   Start Spreading the News
141 You dismiss a whole website because of one "bullet-hard fastball" comment?

I guess that logic makes sense considering you think that Cashman is a "fucking moron."

Wow, the rhetoric flies fast and easy at this late time of the night.

2007-09-10 21:28:38
144.   tommyl
131 If you want to make the argument that Beckett has a lower WHIP and higher K-rate than Wang, as well as a lower ERA, then they should make that argument.

To suggest that a pitcher should be penalized for getting good run support and then say that wins are the only important start is simply asinine. On the one hand you are saying that wins are a function of a lot of things the pitcher can't control and are hence not a good stat. Then they decide to use that stat.

The only good point made all night was by Kruk of all people, who pointed out that all these other guys have a lot more starts than Wang because of his DL stint. Then he correctly pointed out that Wang has by far the highest percentage of decisions to starts among any of the top contenders. The "decisions" are irrelevant, but the overall point, that Wang pitches very deep into almost every game is salient.

2007-09-10 21:30:33
145.   monkeypants
141 The point is that Pavano was in competition with Igawa, Rasner, et al for the bottom of the rotation, biding time until Hughes or Clemenrs or whoever replaced them. if any worked out, great. if not, to be expected.

This does not excuse the appallingly poor scouting that obviously misjudged Igawa badly, nor does it excuse the initials error in signing Pavano years ago to that ridiculous contract. But again, your contention that the team was planning to rely on Pavano this season, or expected him to assume a "prominent role" on the staff is bollocks. BTW, ESPN's 2007 preview (for all its idiocy) predicted Hughes would be the first "reinforcement" called up (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview07/team?team=nyy). No one but no one thought Pavano was anything more than a token piece this year.

2007-09-10 21:33:08
146.   tommyl
131 144 I simply can't get over how amazingly stupid they are, its actually angered me (that's what I get for pausing while flipping around when I saw a picture of Wang up). Its like they almost make a correct statement: wins are to a large extent a function of things out of a pitchers control, and therefore are not a good stat. Then...they just contradict themselves. It makes my brain hurt. And Orel, Orel you are supposed to be intelligent.

If the quality of major league pitching coaches is represented by him (and GMs by Phillips) its a sad industry. To ever suggest that a pitcher just gives up a home run because his team is up by a lot. Wow Orel, great advice to give to your pitchers.

2007-09-10 21:46:04
147.   Mattpat11
No, my argument is still that Pavano was the fourth starter. This is the first I've ever heard otherwise, and it comes from a site that claims Kei Igawa has a good fastball.

You've presented two alternate scenarios. One claims they thought Carl Pavano could last the two and a half months and pitch effectively, when there was no earthly reason to think he could.

The other is that Pavano would sit on the bench while Kei Igawa pitched effectively.

Either scenario is pretty damning of the decision makers in the front office, in my opinion. They either thought Pavano was effective durable, or Kei Igawa was effective enough to keep this team above water.

I don't even mind Rasner as the fifth starter for two and a half months if you have a halfway decent fourth starter.

But if their plan was to just trot out bad pitching in the fourth and fifth spots for half the season and hope Roger came into save the day, that could have ended in disaster.

I just don't know why they kept going back to the Carl Pavano well when they knew it was dry.

2007-09-10 21:48:02
148.   Mattpat11
143 They clearly had no fucking clue what they were talking about in regards to Kei Igawa. Why should I expect that to change as it goes on?
2007-09-10 21:52:53
149.   yankz
147 You didn't answer my question in 142 .

And I refuse to believe that you read and comprehended 145 .

2007-09-10 21:54:17
150.   Mattpat11
145
"The point is that Pavano was in competition with Igawa, Rasner, et al for the bottom of the rotation, biding time until Hughes or Clemenrs or whoever replaced them. if any worked out, great. if not, to be expected."

So the plan was to put these men in the bottom end of the rotation, expect them to fail, and cross your fingers that Roger Clemens swooped in to bail them out? What if he didn't? I hope to Chris they didn't just take him at his word. And what if Phil Hughes pitched they way he has? It was sort of expected that he wouldn't be great out of the gate.

Unless they had Roger's signature on a piece of paper a lot earlier than we thought, that sounds dangerous.

Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-09-10 22:13:47
151.   Mattpat11
142 I wouldn't have touched Kei Igawa, first of all.

Secondly, we were in a position of power in all three of the big trades. So rather than just dump Jaret Wright for a middle reliever we have no interest in, for example, I'd look for someone that could fill out the rotation, especially with no Roger guarantee.

2007-09-10 22:38:07
152.   yankz
151 Brilliant. I love it. Why the fuck didn't the Yankees think of trading Wright, a shitty and oft-injured SP, for a better one? Or Unit, another shitty and oft-injured SP, for a better one? Oh yeah, that's right. Nobody would trade a decent starting pitcher for a shitty one. Personally, I would have called CHI about a Melky, Tabata, Jeter, and Joba for Buehrle deal.

Perhaps you think the Yankees should have held on to them? Because those guys would have totally helped the rotation. You know, in spirit, from the DL and all.

Until people who make comments like "This trade should have happened" start naming names and have a source saying that such a deal was ever even discussed, they carry no weight.

It's people like you that make the rest of the country hate Yankee fans. You have the most unrealistic demands and expect every other team to bend to our will. Not every GM is Dave Littlefield.

2007-09-10 23:43:39
153.   Start Spreading the News
147 The first you are hearing of Pavano fighting for a starting spot? If you think the previous site was disreputable, then maybe you have heard of this one:
http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/555923.html

"Given his hijinx in 2006, it wouldn't surprise me if Pavano's plans for 2007 involve high heals, opera gloves, and his continuing quest for a Section 8. Hey, maybe the Yanks can trade him back home to the Mud Hens."

Does that sound like anyone has given him the #4 spot in the rotation?

On 2-12-2007, there was a post where Pavano was slotted at the 5 spot behind igawa.
"If Mr. Glass is able to pitch with any level of effectiveness during spring training and manages to make it to Opening Day without slamming his finger in a door or cutting himself shaving, he'll be the fifth starter. Not that the odds are very good of that happening, or that there's much chance of him finishing the season with that job. If Pavano pitches well through April and May it's almost a lock that he'll be traded in June."

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