Baseball Toaster: Bronx Banter : Seven Letter Word for "Finished"?

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Seven Letter Word for "Finished"?

2007-08-23 09:42

by Alex Belth

Gary Sheffield aggrivated a shoulder injury on Tuesday and is out indefinitely. I don't think any of the Yankee pitchers will bark about not having to face Sheff.

Meanwhile, is Mike Mussina done? Is he finished, kaput? Anthony McCarron examines this question in the Daily News:

A major league scout familiar with Mussina's work said yesterday that velocity "is his problem." Mussina has never been a power pitcher, nor has he needed to throw that hard to win. But his hard stuff was clocked mostly around 86 mph Tuesday night in Anaheim, which the scout says hinders Mussina's arsenal of off-speed and breaking pitches.

"You have to have separation," the scout said. "There has to be some change of speeds with the fastball. If the changeup or the breaking balls are too close, they lose their effectiveness."

The scout also noted the difference in Mussina's starts against good teams and bad ones. Mussina is 2-4 with a 6.65 ERA in eight starts against teams that had winning records entering yesterday's play. Against teams that were below .500 entering yesterday, he was 6-5 with a 4.34 ERA.

"Which is typical when you start to lose your stuff," the scout said. "You're still smart enough to get the inferior hitters out, but you have problems when you pitch against the better-hitting teams because there are fewer inferior hitters."

Mussina is a number five pitcher now. The Yanks still have some weak teams to play in October. He still has a chance to contribute. The question is, does he have enough stuff left? Color me skeptical.

* I bit the headline from one of the comments the other night.

Comments (94)

Show/Hide Comments 1-50

2007-08-23 09:59:05

1. Just fair

I have rent coming up. Do I get a royalty check or anythng from the headline?

2007-08-23 10:00:21

2. bp1

I don't think it matters so much if the team Moose is pitching to is above or below .500 as much as it does if he has any pop on his fastball. When he was rolling, his fastball was hitting that comfortable 90-91 range with good location. This week he wasn't throwing strikes, and when he was they were meatballs. Even the D-Rays woulda killed him with that stuff.

Dunno what to think. Honestly - he had it just a month ago, and now it's gone. Do you go with unproven rookie in post season (assuming the team makes it that far)?

2007-08-23 10:03:33

3. Cliff Corcoran

Not fer nothin', but:

http://video.nbcsports.com/player/?id=115760

2007-08-23 10:09:24

4. Cliff Corcoran

1 What's ten percent of nothing?

2007-08-23 10:13:28

5. Just fair

Not enough. That video's pretty old, yeah? "A-Rod's homer off of Paplebon last night." That was a fun game though.

2007-08-23 10:13:52

6. Just fair

Not enough. That video's pretty old, yeah? "A-Rod's homer off of Paplebon last night." That was a fun game though.

2007-08-23 10:22:13

7. Cliff Corcoran

5 That was my point. It's from early June. They key to what I say there is that, outside of a few random months (April and May of last year, Sept 2004), Mussina hasn't been an above average pitcher since 2003.

2007-08-23 10:34:52

8. 51cq24

7 03 is the last time i trusted him to pitch a good game. it must be that japan trip! he was determined to make it ruin his career.

2007-08-23 10:43:42

9. pistolpete

I submit that Mussina could still be useful out of the pen. If he has enough rest and can get the velocity up in short bursts, why couldn't he do an inning or two during the PS if Roger runs out of gas?

2007-08-23 11:05:44

10. Marcus

If he can't make his fastball faster, why not make his breaking balls slower? Isn't that what Jamie Moyer did at some point?

I realize that is probably easier said than done. In fact, it may be counter-productive (lose break on your pitches at slower speeds). Just a thought.

2007-08-23 11:08:17

11. tommyl

10 Slowing a pitch down should increase the break. It has more time to break. I think what you mean is sort of the "tightness". A curve always breaks more than a slider, but a slider can be "tighter." I'm searching for a way to quantify it. Its some combination of the speed and break.

2007-08-23 11:08:40

12. ny2ca2dc

What about a return of Loaiza as fifth starter? Dealing with Beane must be pretty scary, but no doubt Loaiza is on the block http://tinyurl.com/2sa7lz

Kind of sad I'm suggesting replacing Moose with Loaiza, even though I know it's not really a great idea. Why spend trading chips to exchange crap for crap...

2007-08-23 11:08:44

13. Cliff Corcoran

10 That's what he did early last year with that Bugs Bunny change, but he couldn't keep it up. He actually had a good changeup on Tuesday night, but he couldn't get into position to use it because he had nothing else.

2007-08-23 11:09:45

14. Yankee Fan In Boston

9 but wouldn't moose's schedule be all out of whack if he went to the 'pen? the man demands regular rests and can't stand to pitch a day early or late, etc. i guess they could potentially apply joba-esque regulations.

2007-08-23 11:10:17

15. Cliff Corcoran

12 You mean the guy whose only major league start this season was yesterday?

2007-08-23 11:11:02

16. ny2ca2dc

11 As you know, the break would only increase/remain if the spin imparted on the ball were still sufficient. I don't know enough about pitching mechanics to say for sure, but i would suspect easing off on the velocity would hurt the spin on the ball & therefore the break/movement. Maybe that's why Moyer is so uniquely effective.

2007-08-23 11:11:12

17. Cliff Corcoran

15 Make that only major league appearance this year.

14 Yeah, all they need is another pitcher with strict usage rules in the pen (Joba, Farnsworth . . .)

2007-08-23 11:24:14

18. rconn23

Umm. Paging Ian Kennedy. Ian Kennedy come to the Yankee clubhouse.

2007-08-23 11:32:31

19. rbj

"The Yanks still have some weak teams to play in October"

Well, I hope the Yankees are playing in October, but I don't think any of the other teams are going to be weak.

2007-08-23 11:33:50

20. 51cq24

16 you can put more spin on a ball if you are throwing it at a lower velocity because you are putting less effort into throwing it forward and more into snapping your wrist

2007-08-23 11:37:17

21. williamnyy23

As things stand, Mussina has 7 more starts against det, tb, kc, tor, balt, tor and balt. Except for KC and TOR, whom he hasn't faced, all of those teams have hit Mussina hard. At this point, I think you have to go start to start with Mussina and hold your breath.

Also of note, whether by luck or design, Pettitte, Clemens and Wang are lined up to start both Boston series as well as the Seattle match-up.

2007-08-23 11:39:57

22. Sliced Bread

Yeah, hard to imagine Rain Man Mussina adapting to the unpredictable schedule of a reliever, but let's not forget one of Mussina's greatest performances as a Yankee was his relief appearance against the BoSox in the Boone game.

I'd give him another start to see if he can get his act together against a contender. If not, Moose should replace Villone as the mop up guy.

Or Joe could try something completely radical and rotate Moose into the first base/DH platoon... heh... NOT.

2007-08-23 11:44:29

23. seamus

Quite a pitching duel indetroit between Westbrook and Robertson. Going into the 8th 0-0.

2007-08-23 11:45:58

24. seamus

Robertson has only thrown 70 pitches to get through 7. That is some serious efficiency!

2007-08-23 11:48:58

25. Gagne55

22 And Torre told him before that game 7 that he wouldn't be used in relief.

2007-08-23 11:54:01

26. Shaun P

Shoot, if El Duque can go out there and pitch OK, with no fastball to speak of, shouldn't Moose be able to as well? Pitching in the weaker league can't give Duque all that much of a boost.

Has Moose reached "David Cone in 2000" status?

2007-08-23 11:59:27

27. bob34957

18
Ian Kennedy: here,what do you want?

2007-08-23 12:03:39

28. Ben

20 I beleive you can get more spin on the ball and more overall movement with a slower pitch, but the break is less dramatic. But it's not all velocity, a lot has to do with the position of the hand. The hand is further behind the ball on a slider, producing more forward force. A curve tends to be held more on the side.

It comes down to the fastball however. Even if it's only 86mph, it has to have some quality that keeps hitters honest, i.e. location, movement or deception. A few nights back, Moose had none of those.

2007-08-23 12:14:42

29. rbj

How about just using a straight knuckleball for Moose? Then you don't have to worry about velocity, plus he'd have about 4+ other pitches to work in once in a while.

2007-08-23 12:15:48

30. 51cq24

26 el duque has a harder fastball (90-91) and many more pitches to go to than mussina. plus, he seems to focus more on getting hitters out than arguing with the umpire on every close pitch. at this point, i'd much rather have el duque than mussina, especially in the postseason, even in the al.

2007-08-23 12:21:21

31. Ben

30 In the words of the Great John Starks, "well you know, no question..."

2007-08-23 12:27:36

32. Alex Belth

Duque is special. And not the small school to bus special.

2007-08-23 12:28:47

33. seamus

I think my eyes are bad. gameday says I-rod went in as a pinch runner.

2007-08-23 12:52:11

34. Mike T

Cleveland 3-0 Detroit

2007-08-23 12:52:55

35. rbj

Zumaya wasn't sharp his last rehab stint either.

2007-08-23 12:53:37

36. Yu-Hsing Chen

32 Alex, i'd call a borderline HOFer pretty special too... like ummm Mussina.

he also didn't have that terrible fastball and hanging curve in the previous string of decent outtings, i think he desrve at least one more start that's for sure. but the Yankees probably should consider optioning Henn and callup someone that could go long if he bombs again (Igawa? his last outting was actually pretty good espically considering that he actually managed to keep the balls on the ground and in the park )

2007-08-23 12:55:56

37. standuptriple

Zumaya is getting roughed up. Hopefully he's not 100% or, even better, the Yanks don't get to see him at all. I'd also like to see that game go extra frames. Can somebody tell me why the Yanks have a night game then travel half-way across the country while the home team gets a nooner?

2007-08-23 12:57:32

38. seamus

37 we have a day off and they dont.

2007-08-23 12:57:56

39. Yu-Hsing Chen

Cleveland scoring in top of the 10th, yikes Detroit is fading badly again this year in the second half. good news that we face them next.

speaking of chokers, the Phighting Phils are losing again = =b.. is this gonna be the 3rd fucking year in a roll where they come very close but no cigar? (still though, harder to blame them this year consider how many guys they lost to the DL)

2007-08-23 13:00:30

40. Yu-Hsing Chen

for the season Zumaya....

70 ABs 13BB 19K yeah let's keep Joba in the pen

2007-08-23 13:00:48

41. Sliced Bread

37 Detroit nudie bars. A-Rod's buyin!

39 a managerial change wouldn't hurt the Phils either.

2007-08-23 13:04:20

42. standuptriple

38 Stupid work. Making me pay attention to things other than baseball.

2007-08-23 13:04:26

43. Yu-Hsing Chen

2 out 1st and 3rd Thames up... Joe "Blow"oski on the mound

2007-08-23 13:05:19

44. Yu-Hsing Chen

Thames double... 1 run in... another hit will win it..

2007-08-23 13:10:12

45. Yu-Hsing Chen

"clutch intangible" I-rod pops out.

2007-08-23 13:14:22

46. Mike T

Cleveland 3-1 Detroit Final

2007-08-23 13:41:59

47. Yu-Hsing Chen

watching the Cubs/Giants game... you soooo know that Matt Cain is gonna take a loss for a 1 run 7 inning work again ;) these Giants hit nothing and Bonds not even in the lineup today.

btw, I think Carlos Zambrano has great stuff, but he realy really walks too many guys that i'm a little relieved we didn't end up signign him.

2007-08-23 13:44:16

48. pistolpete

46 Good. The more distance between us and all the other teams in the WC chase, the better.

2007-08-23 13:53:07

49. Yu-Hsing Chen

Seriously.. this is the Giants lineup today

Dave Roberts LF
Rajah Davis CF
Randy Winn RF
Klesko 1B
Durham 2B
Aurillia 3B
Vizquel SS
Guirellio Rodriguez (who?)
Cain

seriously.. that's a team?

2007-08-23 13:57:06

50. Alex Belth

Guess Guirellio Rodriguez is better than Auriello Rodriguez. Man, I'll never forget his contributions to the Yanks botch-job of the 81 World Serious.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100

2007-08-23 14:04:14

51. Vandelay Industries

48 With a couple Cleveland wins and a Yankee series win, we can bury them from the playoff race altogether.

2007-08-23 14:09:26

52. Mike T

51 Exactly what I was thinking, and good riddance to them.

2007-08-23 14:15:45

53. mhmitch

49 It's Guillermo Rodriguez (.262/.343), the backup catcher, and I wish we had him on Sunday, June 22nd when he was ripping an RBI double while Moose and Nieves were letting the Giants run free on the bases, thus ruining my day in the lower box on an otherwise beautiful SF afternoon.

50 What did Aurelio Rodriguez do wrong in the '81 Serious? I'm blanking out on that one. Was Nettles hurt?

2007-08-23 14:38:15

54. Yu-Hsing Chen

hey, a Kerry Wood sighting!

2007-08-23 14:43:31

55. Yankee Fan In Boston

53 i didn't see anything in the box scores that would cast shame and derision upon rodriguez...

but here they are:
http://tinyurl.com/34epw8

he hit over .400 (all 5 hits were singles and had no RBI, but he didn't seem to make any errors defensively... i don't get it.)

2007-08-23 14:56:37

56. Yu-Hsing Chen

Wow, it's sad that Kery wood is basically now just a crappy reliever... he's thrwoing neither heat nor strikes there but got out of it

2007-08-23 15:03:44

57. Bama Yankee

53 & 55 George Frazier did his part with his a 17.18 ERA and 3 losses...

It's probably a good thing there was no Bronx Banter back then. I wonder what the game thread would have looked like when Lemon pinch hit for Tommy John in the 4th inning of a 1-1 elimination game (especially after he brought in Frazier)...

2007-08-23 15:08:57

58. mehmattski

57 The question is, who would have called more for the re-signing of Billy Martin: the 1981 Bronx Banter, or George Steinbrenner?

2007-08-23 15:26:52

59. Schteeve

If the Yankees make the playoffs, Moose should be left off the roster. He won't be of course, and it could potentially cost us a series, but he is the last guy I want starting a playoff game.

2007-08-23 15:29:46

60. Schteeve

22 If blogs ran baseball teams, the Yankees would have about 12 1b/DHs in that platoon.

I know you were kidding, but it seems like everytime a Yankees outlives their usefulness someone suggests moving them to first.

2007-08-23 15:32:51

61. Bama Yankee

58 It would be a toss up. I'm sure the Banter would also be lamenting a .212 .317 .385 first baseman and debating if we should keep Reggie:
"He had an OPS+ of 119, he's finished"...
"But we owe it to him, look what he's done for us in the PS"...
"But, we got Ken Griffey, who needs a washed up Reggie"...
"But, what am I gonna do with all these candy bars"...

2007-08-23 15:38:07

62. mhmitch

55 57 Yes, I remember George Frazier very clearly unfortunately. I seem to recall that Murcer just missed an HR in that ill-fated pinch hitting appearance, but it could just be my imagination. I also recall being annoyed at Bobby Brown for misplaying a ball in CF in Game 4.

2007-08-23 15:46:32

63. JimCobain

60 It should be called the Mantle-Effect.

2007-08-23 16:40:07

64. Yu-Hsing Chen

NOOOOOOOOOO, shit, the boys from Taiwan were 1 out away from going to the semi finals in Williams port but Japan tied it.. arragh.

2007-08-23 16:47:24

65. Marcus

64 You know, I was just talking with a co-worker of mine, who is of Taiwanese descent (her parents were born there), and she was remarking that the LLWS is HUGE there. She said it seems like everyone follows it, and know the name Williamsport as well as New York City.

She hadn't heard of Wang however. I had to tell her to check him out.

2007-08-23 17:07:20

66. Yu-Hsing Chen

LLWS have been huge in Taiwan for a longer time than Wang has though... Taiwan is afterall... the biggest powerhouse in the whole tournement , having won more time than any other 2 world teams combined

2007-08-23 17:53:40

67. Mr OK Jazz TOKYO

LLWS not too big over here, as they have the high school summer elimination tournament, rightly described as being like the NCAA Final Four in terms of fan interest. The champ this year was a small rural high school from Kyushu island, play their games on a soccer field. Think of Siena or Towson State winning the Final Four, its like that...

2007-08-23 18:07:04

68. JL25and3

62 But...misplaying balls in CF was one of Bobby Brown's special gifts! How could you be annoyed at him for that?

2007-08-23 18:22:00

69. Chyll Will

62 ,68 Bet he wouldn't have misplayed it if it were a doody-bubble...

2007-08-23 18:45:33

70. JL25and3

62 Actually, I have to be fair. the most brilliant, inspired, impossible misplay I saw Brown make was in LF. I've described it here before - it was one for the ages.

2007-08-23 19:22:57

71. Max

Ugh, Mariners go ahead 6-3 on a bases clearing double by Ichiro. Guess it was too much to expect Texas to put up a better show after coming in at 4am after playing the doubleheader yesterday.

2007-08-23 19:35:06

72. Yu-Hsing Chen

67 yeah, Koshien is awsome, i saw that clip of Sato completely owning and the amazing comeback in the 8th in the finals. very very emotioanl

2007-08-23 19:59:49

73.