Apparently Shawn Chacon also got mistreated by Torre, or so he claims:

http://tinyurl.com/2l6mlu

In addition, Edwar was quoted as saying that when he found out about his demotion, he wasn't upset, because he wanted to pitch and not just sit around watching the game.

Sigh, this stuff is starting to get to me a bit. We've always heard how Torre sticks up for his players and all, and how much people love to play for him, but thinking back it always seems to be the people in his circle of trust. That's now Lofton, Sheff, Chacon and Kevin Thompson and Edwar Ramirez seem a bit annoyed (notably without calling out Torre), I'm not including Farnsworth because he's just an ass. I'm sure Derek Jeter loves him, but he seems to be awful at handling either lesser players, new players or just anyone he doesn't love for some reason. Isn't this supposed to be his great strength?

What do others think?

p.s. Oh and as always, great wrap Cliff!

p.p.s. I nominate Cliff for GM and Alex for manager. Anyone else? :)

I always dreamed of having Cash's job, but now, I think I'd rather have Stick's. Or Boss's, of course.

1 Good read...Obi Shawn seemed pretty honest and straightforward. I think the common thread seems to be: "When it's done in front of the whole team, you read disrespect into that," Chacon said. "You expect a manager to handle stuff in the office. Even though it's (his) team, you put people in a weird situation when you do that."

And may I just say that speaking as a people manager, Chacon is correct. That "calling out" stuff works OK when you're dealing with teenagers working at McDonald's, but when you do it to skilled employees at high salary, you are begging for trouble. Nobody likes to have those things done in front of their peers -- that is a universal human truth.

I like how all the articles on Joba's move to the pen (I am 100% against it as long as Torre is the manager) refer to him "possibly being the Yankees answer to Jonathon Papelbon." Since when did the Yankees NEED an "answer" to the question that is a closer? Is there something about turning a hard throwing starter into a closer that somehow MUST be done? I'm sorry, but who wouldn't want 180+ quality innings from a starter over 50 from your closer?

A rumor out of Sox land is Dye to the Bloody Sox for Wily Mo and a pitcher not named Bucholhz or Lester. No idea why Chicago would do that unless its really the best they can do and Boston pays all of the $. Pena is a guy the Sox can't GIVE away...

A rumor out of Sox land is Dye to the Bloody Sox for Wily Mo and a pitcher not named Bucholhz or Lester. No idea why Chicago would do that unless its really the best they can do and Boston pays all of the $. Pena is a guy the Sox can't GIVE away...

Ooops, no idea how that happened. Sorry, I'll just go back to talking to myself :)

1 I think that for every Edwar Ramirez who would rather be sent down than wait his turn, there is an Andy Phillips who just wants to be part of "it", no matter what his role. For every disgruntled ex-Yankee during the Torre era (and the list is large), there are that many and more who would like nothing more than to relive their days on the team.

I do believe Joe has favorites, and I do believe he has a doghouse. Ruben Sierra is proof the doghouse has an entrance and an exit.

It's clear that Joe likes players who know and accept their role on the team, whether they like it or not. When players bitch and moan and whine and complain, blaming others and general being a malcontent, they get sent to the doghouse, which is sometimes a layover on the way out of town. I would think that Farnsworth is now getting to know the inside of the doghouse pretty well (look in the corner, Kyle, and you'll see Buddy Groom's initials carved into the wall). If he turns out to be a disgruntled ex-Yankee and complains that Joe disrespected him, will that make the racial angle go away? Of course not.

Nobody accused Joe of racial preference when he sat Tino and gave his spot to Cecil Fielder. Or told Andy Phillips or Giambi to sit down while offering the first base job to Gary Sheffield. All I remember Joe doing is saying "This is what I feel is best for the team to win ballgames".

None of us knows what goes on inside the clubhouse. Joe has been a manager for a long time - longer than his tenure with the Yankees. It's hard for me to believe that if he was obvious in his racial preferences that we'd be hearing it for the first time in 2007, but crazier things have happened.

The things these players are saying are very charged. Hopefully they know what they are doing and saying, 'cause it's the sort of thing that can stick to someone whether true or not. The allegations are all but impossible to prove or disprove, but affects of the insinuation itself linger for a long time.

6 What I don't understand is why Boston would even want Dye. Can anyone explain their rationale? He's having a mediocre season, although he's hitting home runs a decent pace. But where do they play him? Do they bench JD Drew? Platoon Drew and Dye? It just seems odd. Any other ideas?

9 Actually, Chacon didn't play the race card -- he went so far as to say (emphasis mine):

"I mean, I have all the respect for Joe in the world and it didn't ring true as far as the race thing was concerned, but I can definitely understand where Sheff is coming from, that Joe tried to make an example of him, used him to get a point across to the team."

10 Oneupmanship. What do the Yanks (seem to) need (desperately)?

A right-handed bat that hits lefty pitching.

What is Jermaine Dye?

A right-handed bat that hits lefty pitching.

If you are worried that Kenny Williams is going looking for young pitching, and might be shopping a player your 'enemy' wants, and your 'enemy' has lots of young pitching to deal - you float rumors that you are going to going to get that player by giving up something your 'enemy' does not have (Wily Mo Pena) to make your 'enemy's' life harder.

I am sure that Larry Lucchino (and his personal PR man, Dr. Charles Steinberg, friend to all Boston media) has not forgotten the Abreu deal last year, where the Yanks insisted on getting Lidle too, to keep the Sox from getting him (supposedly).

Just speculation on my part . . . but only because the Red Sox have absolutely no need for Dye, unless they plan on benching Drew, or trading Mike Lowell (which the clubhouse would revolt over).

5 I think you're absolutely right, Zach. I think Joba to the pen is a reaction on Cashman's part to the fact that Torre keeps using Farnsworth and Proctor in late innings, with the hope that giving him a "name" option - as opposed to poor Edwar - might force him to actually learn to trust and use the kid.

If so, more proof that Mr. Torre must go, and that someone who does not run a bullpen by the "Wheel of Guts", and only uses players in his "Circle of Trust", must be brought in when the year ends.

13 Argh - I left out ". . . Zach. On a related note - I think Joba to the pen . . ."

Sorry.

9 Agreed. IMO it's less about race than it is about the pressure-cooker that is the Yankees clubhouse.

I'd be curious to see what Torre's managing style would be like had he not won the 4 rings - what players would be in his 'inner circle', etc.

Then again, without the rings, Joe's probably out before the turn of the century. And who the hell knows who's actually on this team.

9 I'm sorry but your argument just doesn't hold up. First off, Chacon (and I) was not playing the race card. The point is not whether Torre is a racist or not (he's not), but is handling of lesser and role players.

In addition, I don't think Chacon acted up at all before this incident in question. In fact, just a year before he was the savior of the team, and he did start off relatively well in 2006 before he hurt his shin. His point about not being allowed to work back into rythmn rings true, they bounced him all over the place. Now, maybe he would have worked it out, maybe he wouldn't, but the point is he wasn't given much shot.

As for the Edwar situation, versus that of Phillips, I just don't see it. When Andy was first brought up a few years ago, he had one bad game against Kazmir and then was basically seen once in awhile. Last year, being used as only a PH, LIDR, or spot starter he never really got into rythmn. He as well has said how difficult it is to adjust when you aren't getting regular playing time. Neither he nor Edwar are really complaining, but I mean, how could they? They are both barely there, and if they bitch they know they won't get to play.

Now for Edwar, some of it is probably him trying to put a positive spin on things. But the facts remain that he was lights out in AA/AAA, came up, struck out the side against the Twins, pitched ok against the Angels and then was never heard from again. How can you not expect the kid to get frustrated? or recognize that he needs regular work.

The Joba move is a mistake, I just really think it is. I like the idea of pitching a young starter out of the bullpen a la Lirianio or Santana, but not when the manager is Joe. He will either abuse Joba till he gets hurt, or he will rot in the pen. I'd much rather see him finish the year in AAA (with a September callup perhaps) and start next season fresh as a starter with the big league club.

This year all I've seen is Joe stand in the way of this team. There are better players in the system (Britton, Edwar, Andy vs. Stink, etc.) that he refuses to play. Now, he's gone on record saying the team needs to add a bullpen arm via trade, because he just doesn't want to let a player develop. I just feel he is damaging the long term success of this team.

10 Platoon (at least partially) Dye with Drew & maybe Ramirez -- perhaps ocassionally DH'ing Manny to rest Ortiz (who seems hurt this year) -- and use Dye as a bat off the bench. He has to be an improvement over the current Pena/Hinske combo.

From the ongoing Buster chat…

chauncey (teaneck): what are your feelings on cansecos comments on A-rod?

SportsNation Buster Olney: (1:05 PM ET ) Chauncey: He can throw out just about anything he wants now -- on me, on you, on A-Rod. He was right about enough, with his first book -- McGwire probably would have been in Cooperstown yesterday, if not for his first book -- that he's got some credibility. A lot of what he had in the first book was wrong, but enough was right to put him in a position to throw out anything... That's where we are in 2007…

This thing is really chapping my @$$. Does anyone really think Jose is smart enough to have held some juicy dirt in reserve after his first book? Everyone's giving him so much credit for being 'right' on a lot of things in his first stab at yellow journalism, but I highly doubt it was intended to be a serial. My guess is the impetus for part 2 is, "Hey, I need more money. Who hits a lot of homers whom I haven't smeared yet? Got it!"

Rosenthal at FOX reports this impending deal:

Rangers get Saltalamacchia, Elvis Andrus and two additional prospects.
Braves get Teixeira and Ron Mahay (LH relief).

Teixeira plans to test the free agent waters.

http://tinyurl.com/2nyf3q

I may be the only one that remembers this, but when Tino was doing ESPN last year or 2 years ago, he told a story about how Torre RIPPED into Clemens in the middle of the clubhouse after he pitched like crap. To the point where Clemens sat there and took it and didn't speak until Torre left, at which point he said, "I haven't been ripped by a coach like that since High School." So I don't think Torre can be accused of only ripping lesser players either. I'm not saying his handling of younger players and the bullpen isn't horrible, because it is, but I think people should also take a step back and realize that when guys like Andy Philips and Shawn Chacon are getting a steady diet of playing time it's a BAD thing for the Yanks.

20 Really? Phillips getting playing time over Mink the Stink is a bad thing for the Yankees? or when Dougie comes back you'd rather see Phillips sent back down to AAA?

My main contention is not that every rookie he's messed up would have been great. My point is that we'll never know, and if at least a few of them could have been productive for the team than his handling of them harms the team. Could Edwar be the 7th or 8th inning guy we are craving if Joe had let him pitch a bit more? Maybe, maybe not. But now we're likely going to have to make a trade for someone a lot more expensive.

21 Exactly. And furthermore, as the team will (at least should) be much younger next year in the pen and the rotation, Joe's tendencies will be even more magnified. In the last few years, I feel like Joe's habits have gotten much worse as the team lost more and more of the core from the championship teams, where Joe really didn't have to in game manage at all.

What the Yanks SHOULD do next year is start the year with Ohlie, Henn, Edwar, Britton, Proctor, Mo, and Viz, and the Rotation of Hughes, Wang, Joba, Andy, and (I guess) Moose.

However, can you imagine Torre with that BP? He'd ONLY pitch Proctor, Mo and Viz until their arms fell off...

22 ...and then re-sign Villone?

5 ... the team's answer to Jonathan Papelbon? Or is he going to be the team's answer to Craig Hansen?

I know Joba's supposed to be really good, but I remember the Hansen hype being here in Boston, and I hate the idea of rushing someone so young into the bullpen out of desperation.

24 I agree, though the comparison to Papelbon is mostly b/c of the starter to reliever thing. I think Joba would be fine in the BP, and I'm all for it, as long as he does three innings or so every 5 or 6 days. Which he isn't being brought up to do. He doesn't have all that many innings under his belt, so they shouldn't really be worried about limiting them, and if they really want him to turn around and start again next year, they need to be stretching him out and watching his work levels

No, my point was that people should stop talking about Phillips like he's the second coming of Lou Gehrig. He's a 30 year-old utility guy, at best. Anyone that thinks he would've become even a league average 1B if Torre gave him steady playing time is smoking something a helluva lot stronger than Marlboros. There's a reason he never got more than 100AB's in a season before last year, and you can't put that all on Torre. If Phillips had the minor-league resume of a Daric Barton or someone of that ilk, than you could definitely fault Torre for not being patient.

The thing no Yankee manager, especially not one under Steinbrenner, has ever had, is the luxury of being patient. Why people are questioning why a manager who hasn't successfully broken in a rookie since Jeter w/out having his hand forced by the GM (Cano and Wang) is reluctant to play rookies is beyond me. This isn't a new pattern. And the argument that the Yanks have to get someone more expensive is absurd. Money is, and most likely never will be, an issue for the Yankees. At least Cashman has enough sense to hold onto what valuable prospects he has. I'd much rather see Gagne coming out in the 8th than "trying to see what we have" in Edwar come mid-August.

I don't know if this is in the news yet, bu according to Pete Abe, Texeira is all but traded to the Braves, with the Rangers getting Saltamacchia. Hmmm...two players the Yankees must have coveted. I wonder Salty can be pried from the Rangers? Anyway, at least Texeira ended up in the NL for now.

I am of two minds about Joba to the pen. I actually don't mind the idea of starting a young player out in the pen. I also harbor secret dreams that he will be used as a sorta long man when Moose or Clemens (or even Hughes) pitches, so that he throws two innings twice a week, say, rather than being used for one inning every day.

But then again, starters are so much more valuable than RP, even closers. it would be shame if either he is 'tracked' into a reliver role because of an ad hoc decision made this season, or if somehow his development as a starter is stunted (either through mechanics or injury or overuse, whatever).

And no, I don't trust Torre with him--he'll either be overused or ignored. But, at least there are only about 50 games left in the season, so hopefullyany damage will be limited.

What do y'all think: would Righetti's career have been better if he remained a starter?

26 I meant expensive in terms of people being traded.

I agree that he's not Gehrig or Donnie B or even Olerud or someone like that, but FWIW, Phillips' minor league OPS was .868, while Barton's was .889 (Andy outslugged him). Not exactly worlds apart. Yeah, Barton did it while younger, but that just means Andy should have gotten a shot earlier.

26 Hmmm, I don't know. He's a 30 y.o. (thus probably past his athletic prime) utility guy, currently carrying a .770 OPS.

League average 1B the last few years (OPS):

2007: .817
2006: .851
2005: .824
2004: .825

I'm not convinced Phillips couldn't have approached league average in 2004 and 2005 (age 27 and 28 seasons), when the Yankees elected to go with 253 ABs of Tony Clark (.753 OPS), 164 AB of Olerud (.763 OPS), and 303 ABs of Tino (.767 OPS).

Phillips MiL OPS those two seasons (AAA only)? .957 and .952. I'm fairly confident that would have translated into league average, and certainly better than the the big club played.

There are three reasons why Phillips never got more than 100 ML ABs in a single season before last year:

1. Jason Giambi
2. The Yankees organizational mistrust of marginal MiL talent.
3. A colossal injury that caused him to miss most of the 2003 season (after he was the teams MiL player of the year in 2002).

You are correct, though. He is not the second coming of Lou Gehrig.

Let me ask this question. If Alex Gordon were a Yankee, and started the season like he did, would he still be in the majors? or would he be working things out in the minors?

I have no real basis, but my hunch is that Joba to the pen is, at least in part, a negotiating tactic as part of a bullpen trade being worked out--a move meant to show that Cashman has a good alternative to a negotiated trade. The last minute nature of it, conveniently before the Tues trade deadline, is a little too coincidental.

31 In the minors, because the Yankees have the best 3B in the world. Don't forget Cano- he sucked when he first came up (.245/.261/.409/.670 in his first 30 games), but they let him play through it because the alternative was Womack.

27 To me, the potential for damage is not just overuse, but overuse coupled with doing something he's never done in the pros (or in his last two years of college) - short relief. Warming up every so often, then pitching for a short time, then doing it again is very different from starting. (Its one thing if Joba's future was the bullpen, but its hopefully not.)

32 Boy I hope so.

31 In 2007? No, not unless Cashman forced Torre's hand a la Cano (remember he did not get off to a good start, .253/.273/.398 his first month).

The problem is, as we've all seen, no team can consistently win without using some of its in-house talent on a frequent basis. If that means a month or two of growing pains, so be it - the payoff is worth it. Especially to the Yanks, because it lets them direct their financial might at better things than over-priced middle relievers (Farnsworth) and crappy starters (Pavano and Wright).

Cano is batting a whopping .385/.421/.606/1.027 this month. He really is a warm weather player, apparently.

34 Haha, slowpoke.

36 You know what they say: great minds . . . ;)

Someone should tell Phil Allard he loses a lot of credibility when he spells it "Rameriz " multiple times. His views on the Joba situation: http://tinyurl.com/ywzbog

37 True dat, true dat.

33 34 He can also play 1B (he did a game or two in the last series iirc). Me, I think Torre would play Cairo over him.

34 hits it on the head. Its one thing to take a solid core of players (Mo, Jeter, Bernie, Posada etc.) and add various free agents to complete the picture. Its another to try to build your entire team that way. Sometimes you have to endure a month or two of subpar production from a rookie in order to have him performing for you in years to come. Just think where we'd be if Cash hadn't forced Torre's hand on Cano.

I think this even factored in to many of the trades that were made. Why hold onto position prospects if Joe is never going to play them? What use does someone who could only be a decent major leaguer have? etc. I'm speculating in this last bit, but this team needs to start building from within. Otherwise its going to