The cute link is a nice touch, Emma, especially since some in the game thread were considering bestiality if Proctor got out of the 9th last night.

MASN did show Mo up in the 9th when Jorge walked. Of course, when you're going to let Jorge run, what was the point, especially with Cano bunting?

I do hate you at this point, Joe Torre. And worse, I can easily see Jorge, Mo, and Pettitte leaving when Joe isn't brought back at the end of this brutal season. Instead, fire his ass now and show the players he's the reason they're 4-13 in one run games.

Please, King George, find your ballsack.

The mind still boggles when you consider why, according to Torre himself, he did not use Rivera last night: according to PeteAbe at LoHud, he didn't want to "because of the 1.2 innings he worked Friday night."

Now, if Torre had said that he was not going to use Rivera until the Yankees got the lead, I could understand it. I would not agree with the strategy, but at least the tactics would match the strategy.

But, Torre's statement implies (at least as presented) that Rivera was simply unavailable because he had pitched more than an inning FOUR days earlier. Unless Torre meant he was only available for one inning; but if that's the case, it still begs the question why he wasn't used--especially after Proctor let a couple of guys get on base.

And there are further questions. Why was Rivera used for 1.2 innings in a game that the Yankees led by 4 runs going into the top of the 8th? And is it better to use him in those situations, if he is now so fragile, or in any of the surrounding close games that were lost by one or two runs while the Best Closer in History™ sits idly in the pen? And if it is the case that 1+ innings now essentially burns Rivera for half a week, is it good also to carry a one inning every-other-day guy (Farnswhacker) and a one batter specialist (Meyers), let alone the fact that neither is good at what they do? Maybe since Basak has had only three appearances and one AB since being called three weeks ago, and Andy Phillips was benched apparently after one game, they can both be DFAed and the team carry 15 pitchers?

Finally, the real questions, is Torre senile? No, I mean it--no sarcasm. Are we witnessing the onset of serious senility?

Does anyone have the stat of how many consecutive balls Proctor threw right after the belly flop. It seems like 8 straight balls. The flop didn't look that damaging at first view, but it seriously altered his control thereafter(am I really saying that as an excuse for Proctor's control issues???) Nontheless, for a pitcher not to be able to throw to second or even attempt to throw the ball to second after that play, should have even warranted a visit from the trainer. Proctor was hurt and no one even bothered to see if he was alright. Proctor preceded to walk the next batter and then walk in the winning run. Not before he through a wild pitch that almost hit Hernandez. Moe should have come in after Proctor was "injured." If that is not a manager mess up, I don't know what is.

Sorry...I am fishing for excuses.

i'm going to take a moment to be completely self-indulgent.

i work full time and take a full course load at school, working towards my undergrad at night. the summer is normally my oasis.

i get 3.5 months of relative reprieve, and i devote a healthy amount of that precious time to baseball. watching and playing.

that said, i think i'm ready for september. this summer, baseball has foresaken me. the yankees were out of the race in june and the team i play on is an embarrassing 1-6 (though most of that is due to terrible luck).

2 i don't think that torre is senile, but somebody needs to tell him that he's costing the team games.

gator, please help... joe torre is ruining my summer... it's all i have...

3 The trainer did visit. I don't think Procter even threw any test pitches though. All were itching for Mo to come in there, he would've been granted as much time as he needed to warm up, as an injury replacement...

3 whether he was hurt or not, he was throwing balls left and right. torre even came out to visit him after the first 2 guys reached base. then he let him stay in when it was at least possible that he was hurt, and certain that he could not throw strikes. these aren't excuses, they are real observations. torre's move are inexplicable. i'm yet to hear anyone defend them on their merits, instead of blaming the players instead.

I'd like to send Torre an e-pinkslip.

6 I've defended Torre for some very unpopular decisions, but there was no defense for last night.

I wanted Joe to go out with some dignity when the season was done, but last night really was inexplicable. I swear it looked like he had a death wish (wanting to be fired this week), or he had lost his mind.

6 I don't think anyone's really defending Torre much anymore. In fact, I'd say the exact opposite of what you did: the focus has been so squarely on the (entirely legitimate) failures of Cashman and Torre that the players are practically getting a free ride.

If the Yankees are going to win any games, at some point they have to start hitting major-league pitching on a consistent basis.

8 "I swear it looked like he had a death wish (wanting to be fired this week), or he had lost his mind."

See 2.

9 They would have a better chance to hit major league pitchers consistently if they 1] had more major league quality players on the roster and, more imortantly, starting at all nine positions; and 2] the injured and crippled would be placed on the DL so they might become ML quality players again.

9 i'm not saying that no players bear any responsibility. but it's not like everyone is playing badly. at least 3 everyday hitters are hitting better than can be expected (even with extremely high expectations). the starting pitching has been pretty good. we all know about the bullpen, but what we don't know is how well they'd be pitching if torre hadn't overused them from the beginning. i know that sounds like an excuse for them, but i think it's a legitimate one. proctor can't be expected to be great when he pitches almost every day. same for bruney. farnsworth can't be expected to be great at all, so why is he used in big situations? when you look at the numbers, this team shouldn't be nearly as bad as it's been. this is really not a failure of the players, it's a extreme managerial failure. how many times have the yankees been totally out of the game? judging by the score, not very often. judging by expectations of how joe torre would manage the game, very often.

11 "the injured and crippled would be placed on the DL so they might become ML quality players again."

did anyone else get the feeling that as soon as damon hit that HR, he validated his DL avoidance in joe's eyes?

this is what this season has become for me. i now fear the worst. disaster lurks around every corner.

11 Agreed. But the top 6 aren't doing the job (collectively), and that's not Cairo's fault, or Torre's, or Cashman's.

Obviously, Rodriguez and Posada are excepted from this discussion. The others, even Jeter, haven't been doing their jobs well. Jeter's hitting, but he's made more mental errors and mistakes than I've ever seen him make. He's also the team captain and, to my mind, not a very good one.

12 They've been completely out of games way more often than the scores indicate. Put this team two runs behind and they look dead. I don't think that's Torre's fault.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting him any more. But he's got enough to be held responsible for, I don't think the offensive woes are really on him.

14 I don't know, maybe. Who do you consider the Top 6? If you are talking about Damon, Jeter, Abreu, A-Rod, Posada, Matsui--

Jeter, A-Rod, and Posada have been above average and above their own career standards. Maybe Jeter gets a demerit or two for mental mistakes. I don't put much stock in the whole captain thing; I think that's more for the fans and media than for the players themselves.

Damon has been woeful, but he's hurt and should be DLed. That fault lies with the coaches and GM.

Matsui has been worse than his career standards and his Groundzilla tendencies have returned. But his .808 OPS is not crippling (substandard for his position, though).

Abreu has been a disaster.

Overall, I would argue that the top six have been pulling their weight collectively, albeit unevenly. Even if not, Torre/Cashman cannot be allowed a free pass for the woeful bench and pervers personnel decisions just because Abreu and Matsui have been stinky.

16 Where did I ever suggest giving anyone a free pass? It's not an either/or proposition. This team sucks so bad, in so many ways, that there's plenty of blame to go around.

16 there is plenty of blame to go around, but players have off years and it is acceptable because they are facing an opponent who is actively trying to get them out or get a hit off them. managers and gms do not have that active resistance. when they make huge mistakes every single game, it is completely inexcusable and unacceptable.

i meant 17

And, btw, I split the blame for keeping Damon off the DL. He's got to be honest about his capabilities, and I don't think he is. So I'm not letting him off the hook for that.

Up and down the lineup, they're failing to execute fundamentals. Bunts mey be bad, but advancing runners and scoring them from third aren't.

Jeter's baserunning has also been pretty bad this year. 7 SB and 7 CS so far? Not just stolen bases, either - his judgment just hasn't been good. And his fielding has deteriorated noticeably, even given my limited expectations.

15 I can fault Torre for giving Minky/Cairo 50 starts at 1B. I can fault him for repeatedly pulling Giambi earlier this year for PRs in the middle innings. I can fault hime for starting crippled Damon at DH instead Phelps. I can fault him for batting Melky lead-off in 39 games.

You're right that ultimately the players are responsible for what happens between the lines. But one of the jobs of the manager is to set up his personnel to give the team the greatest chance to succeed between the lines. Torre is failing at this task, and this year failing in a profound fashion.

From Rob Neyer's blog:

I'm 100 percent sure that Joe Torre is trying to win.
Well, maybe 99 percent sure. I know just enough about quantum physics to know I can't be 100 percent sure about anything.

But I'm 99 percent sure that Torre is trying to win. After all, someday he's going to be elected to the Hall of Fame as a manager, and there aren't many Hall of Fame managers who weren't really, really trying to win.

You had to wonder last night, though. You had to wonder, while watching Scott Proctor walk home the winning run in the bottom of the ninth inning, with Mariano Rivera never having thrown a single pitch in the game.

As a friend wrote me last night, a few seconds after Corey Patterson trotted home with that winning run,

It's just insane. There is no logical reason why, facing a situtation WHERE YOU CANNOT GIVE UP A RUN, OR YOU LOSE (and fall two games under .500), you would choose Proctor over Rivera. This is managing to a statistic -- the save -- rather than to win. According to Torre's logic, you use Proctor when you simply can't give up a run, and you use Rivera when you can. Absurd.
Indeed. I've been harping on this since (at least) Game 4 of the 2003 World Series, when the Yankees lost a 12-inning game and Rivera never left the bullpen. But Torre keeps making the same mistake, over and over and over again.

Last Saturday in San Francisco, the Yankees lost a 13-inning game. Rivera never left the bullpen. In fact, every relief pitcher pitched except the Yankees' best relief pitcher.

Granted, Rivera had thrown 20 pitches the night before. So we'll cut Torre some slack there. But last night? Rivera hadn't pitched at all since that 20-pitch outing last Friday. Last night he was as well-rested as you'd ever want your closer to be. No slack on this one.

In Torre's autobiography he wrote, "I'm more concerned about winning the game than trying to cover my butt."

Really, Joe? Next time you're on the road and the game's tied in the ninth, prove it.

18 I'm not sure why it's so important that absolutely everything be laid at Torre's feet. He's never been a good in-game manager, and this year it's mattered a lot more. Even worse, his ability to get the team to ride out slumps hasn't worked this year.

Fine, get rid of him. I just don't think it's necessary to lay the blame for everything at his feet, or Cashman's. Players have been playing badly, and they need to be held accountable as well. Other players are trying to get them out? Ooooh, scary. Isn't that how it's supposed to be? These guys are professionals, and they shouldn't get a free ride.

Since no one else is likely to pick it up, here's my defense of Torre: He's just being himself. I believe he is operating under the same set of beliefs and processes that delivered the Yanks many victories during his tenure. It's not working now, but it seems that like many players, he believes in staying withing themselves through thick and thin. Remember, Torre is an ex-player, and knows better than any of us that the difference between batting .250 and .300 is something like 1 hit a week over a season. Maybe as a manager, we expect him to be more adjustable, but he's never been before. It's just hard to watch when it doesn't go right.

Tough effing season.

17 You're right--I overschematized.

20 Jeter's CS/SB is more complicated to analyze. We don't know how many have been called from teh bench or if they were on his own. At least two or three CS (as I recall) were the product of blown hit-and-run plays, usually with slumping Abreu swinging through the pitch. That's not really Jeter's fault. On the other hand, he has been picked off a couple of times and he has made errors on the basepaths, no doubt about it. For all the ways that Jeter is overrated, he has always been a superb base runner, and this season has been striking.

He does appear significantly slower this year, both on the bases and in the field.

21 Of course. Take all those things away and maybe the team would be two games over .500. Do you really think that giving Phelps more starts at 1b would have made that big a difference?

Look, I'll slam him as much as anyone. The lineup he put out there on Sunday was inexcusable. Leaving his best reliever on the bench while game after game slips away is equally inexcusable. But the lack of execution is on the players.

24 Good point. My friends and I used to discuss coaches (especially in the NBA or NFL) who were "system guys." When they had players who did not work well within the system, the team would lose--who was to blame? Not every team can successfully run the west coast offense or the triangle offense. Likewise, I guess, Torre's formula during the dynasty years does not seem to work with teh current batch of players--whether that is because he can't adjust to his personnel, or the personnel is unsuited to his strategic and tactical approach, or because the personnel are underperforming, or because he is underpperforming, or because the personnel are just bad. As in all things, it almost certainly a combination.

17 The point is: the Yanks can't do anything about Matsui and Abreu short of benching them or trading them. And given their performance and salary, that last option means they'd pick up a nice chunk of the paycheck AND get back another underperforming player. There are no clear wys to improve the team that involve Abreu or Matsui.

By constrast, for the last six months, the team could have easily improved at:

1) 1B
2) Bullpen
3) Bench

It's about the possibility of addressing the problem AND the likelihood of it having a positive effect. All three have been within reach for a long-time. Instead, they've only got worse through the combined incompetence of the players the GM keeps on the roster AND the ways in which that roster is used by the manager.

If the manager isn't going to start Phillips or even use him as a pinch-hitter, then there's no point to him being on the team.

If the manager isn't going to use Thompson as a pinch runner in a tie game on the road, then there's no point to having him on the team.

If Basak isn't going to see any action at all, then there's no point to having him on the team.

If the manager is only going to use Cairo as the 1B, then he shouldn't be on the team.

If Nieves can't do crap, then he shouldn't be on the team.

If Mike Myers can't get out LH hitters (.306 BAA), then he shouldn't be on the team.

If Ron Villone is going to sport an 81 ERA+, then he shouldn't be on the team.

If Luis Vizcaino is going to sport an 80 ERA+, then he shouldn't be on the team.

That's 36% of the roster right there which is useless. THIRTY-SIX PERECENT of the team doesn't do a damn thing to help them win.

1B, Bullpen, Bench

Say it with me now. Everybody! If the Yanks were interested in winning, they'd have a roster with players that could help them win. They don't and, until they do, they won't.

23 not absolutely everything. giambi is hurt, that isn't torre's fault. damon is hurt, that isn't torre's fault. but it is torre's fault that he doesn't see that damon is hurt and say to him "i don't care that you have a dl-free streak, i don't care that you think you can play, you can't." mariano blew a few saves, that isn't torre's fault. but it is his fault when he doesn't put him in when he needs to be in. it is his fault that he uses the wrong players, that he overuses the bullpen one day and then underuses it the next, that he tries to bunt over one of the slowest players in baseball against a pitcher who can't throw strikes....

24 yes, he's staying within himself, and that is the problem. i'm not sure if you are trying to point out that he's never been a good manager or trying to say that this isn't his fault. but the former is the truth. i know we won 4 championships with him as manager. i'm sure a lot of the moves he made then were the right moves. but i'm even more sure that we would have had a very great chance of winning 2 more championships in 03 and 04 if a better manager were making the moves.

26 I don't know, but I wish I didn't have to wonder. I also look at it this way--the team has been atrocious in close games (especially one run games). These are the very games when tactical decision, the ones that cost an AB here or a baserunner there, really make a difference. In those games, Jeter's baserunning boners loom larger, but also so do four or five ABs for Cairo or bunting with Posada on first or silly BP decisions.

To no one in particular:

THIRTY-SIX PERECENT OF THE FUCKING ROSTER IS USELESS.

24 I completely agree. He's always preferred to have players in fixed roles. For years my family has been joking about it: Farnsworth is the 8th-inning pitcher, so if it's the 8th inning you bring in Farnsworth. You don't bring in Bruney, because he's a 6th-7th inning pitcher, so you can't bring him in in the 8th. You bring in Farnsworth, because he's the 8th-inning pitcher. Repeat for virtually every role on the team.

A corollary is that he's never handled any sort of platoon or time-sharing well. It's been years since he's used a bench well (or since he's had a bench to use, it's true). He plays favorites, and leaves some players to molder on the bench - I think he carries 12 pitchers so that he can have one he doesn't use. And he's always brutally overused a couple of relievers.

Before this season, it's worked. Last year, his lack of flexibility played as stability, and I don't thin the team would have won the division without him.

But this year he doesn't have the horses to do that, and what he's doing ain't working. The wheels have fallen off completely, and things need to be shaken up (to mix metaphors). Unfortunately, shaking up is precisely what Joe doesn't do.

29 No, he hasn't been a bad manager. I think it's just as likely that another manager would have won fewer championships, not more. He's never been a good tactician, but his strengths were precisely what the team needed.

Billy Martin was a superb tactician. He wouldn't have lasted two years, because he couldn't do what Joe could. He could manage a game but he couldn't manage the players, or the owner, or the media, or the fans. Joe handled all of that superbly, and that's no small feat in NY.

If you think that's not a big deal, name two other Yankee managers in the last 35 years who were able to do it.

32, 33 you say he hasn't been a bad manager, but you also say that he is inflexible and can't manage the bench and can't manage the bullpen and likes to have guys on the roster to not use them. and you say that this is what worked for the yankees last year. i say he has been lucky that his moves haven't hurt the yankees more in years past (although they certainly did hurt in 03 and 04). and i say that a string of great tacticians who get fired because they can't handle the crazy owner is better than one manager who is a terrible tactician keeping his job way past when he should have been fired.

Urge to kill rising...

FWIW, Vizcaino has been pitching much better recently. In the month of June, he has put up a .82 ERA in 11 innings with a .167 BAA.

That is closer to his career line than his 7.2 ERA pre-June. I would suggest that Vizcaino has slowly worked himself back to what he was expected to be when the Yanks brought him in.

33 Dick Howser and Buck Showalter

36 The only thing that's changed for Vizcaino is luck (.214 BABIP) and he has a bit more control (7 BB vs 9 K in 11 IP). But he still sucks. And I have little doubt that another reliever could at least be his equal and maybe pitch in a close game.

And my little rant also left out Farns and his 85 ERA+.

So:

FOURTY PERCENT OF THE FUCKING ROSTER IS USELESS.

Howser, yes. Showalter, I'm not so sure.

And 34, I'm saying that he has strengths and weaknesses. If you think that a series of better tacticians a year at a time would have been preferable, you must not remember the 80's very well.

33 "No, he hasn't been a bad manager.