I'll bet they have fun with the comparisons, too. As talented and skilled as Reyes is, he has a lot to prove to be compared outright to Jeter, and I'm sure he knows that. Jeter has not only four more rings than Reyes, but four rings in his first five years in the majors. Lucky perhaps, but then even before Jeter was captain, teammates often deferred to him (especially after Paulie left). Jeter has a je ne se quois that Reyes has yet to develop and others in Jeter's class have not necessarily sustained as long as he has. No fair putting Alex in this equation since he's transformed himself for the sake of the Yanks, though I'm sure the snarky answer to the above question would surely be him.

Reyes is a treat to watch; his speed and grace on the field and the basepaths, his strong arm and his development as a hitter have been special. Given the same luck of avoiding major injury, Reyes stands a good chance to be better than Jeter. For now though, even Reyes would not question who's the superior shortstop of the two in the big picture.

My favorite thing about Wang's outing last night is that he faced the minimum through 14 batters thanks to a DP and that caught stealing of Reyes. Sitting in the bleachers, I was furious when Torre took Wang out with one out to go for a complete game, but after I found out he was at 113 pitches, I calmed down a bit. I might still have given him one more batter for a chance at the CG, but you can't really argue being protective of your ace's arm--and Wang is definitely the Yankee ace. Not bad for a 26-year-old third-year player in a rotation with Clemens, Pettitte and Mussina.

Another interesting fact from last night's game: the Yankee batters who led off each inning hit for the cycle: Matsui and Cano singled, Rodriguez doubled, Abreu tripled, and Damon homered.

2 And according to Abraham, Wang also had a stiff neck, perhaps that was it. I was annoyed when Wang came out in the ninth and didn't get to finish that last one out. Then I thought, there are three, four months left.

1 Jeter is gotta be the better one now. In a few years, we can think this over again and the answer could be different.

All in all, the past two weeks were greeeeeeaaaat!

I still don't understand the phenomenal difference between 111 pitches and 113.

That was the second consecutive Sunday night that I literally got off my duff and yelled at the TV.

Last Sunday it was David Chase's abrupt cut to black at the end of "The Sopranos."

Last night, it was Joe "Don't Stop Believin'" Torre yanking Wang (heh) 1 exit short of his destination.

It took me about 24 hours to appreciate Chase's creative decision to leave the ending up to the fans.

By that math, it will another 12 hours before I will be at peace with Joe robbing Wang of his complete game closure.

Wang didn't seem too bothered about it, and that's the most important thing.

re: the Jeter v Reyes thing.
I was at the game on Saturday, enjoying primo seats courtesy of my Mets fan brother-in-law's business connections -- and Reyes's speed was something to see in person. He's cartoon fast.

He was the Road Runner to Jorgie's Wile E. Coyote this weekend, and even as I was desperately rooting for Posada to catch him it was fun to watch Reyes in action.

No question Reyes does some things better than Jeter, but you can't compare their careers.

Bottomline, even after all these years, the first position player I'd pick to go into battle with is Jeter.

Myers had K'ed Delgado 9 times out of 14 ABs. I think Joe wanted one last look at a Myers vs. Delgado in anticipation of a possible World Series matchup.

And hey, it's going to be two full days off for Proctor. I wonder what his arm is feeling.

5 "He was the Road Runner to Jorgie's Wile E. Coyote this weekend, and even as I was desperately rooting for Posada to catch him it was fun to watch Reyes in action."

Ha haa ha!!

Nice.

Reyes is a special player, no doubt about it.

The fact that he's improved his game to dramatically in so short a time (plate discipline, mainly) is extraordinary.

And his body has yet to fill out, so when it does, he should provide even more power, though I'd hate to see more bulk hamper his agility in the field and his quickness on the bases.

It's sad to watch him go to his left and see him make plays Derek couldn't dream about making.

(In fairness, though, Derek did make a nice play to his left last night, a play I was surprised he made.)

I was glad they pulled him. I didn't want to see him throw 120 pitches just so he could have the glory of a CG.

Also, how about that change up that Wang threw Reyes in the 8th or 9th. Reyes fell down trying to hit it. Good stuff.

9 I know! Talk about cartoonish. That's the flip side of his cartoon-running.

I felt sorry for the guy because it was just yet another small humiliation the likes of which the Mets and their fans most certainly do not need these days.

Having not so long ago suffered through such agonies ourselves, I really feel for them.

Over at Canyon of Heroes, one of the commenters quotes Wang as saying this in a post-game interview:

"Of course I wanted to finish the game, but I already lost one point to the previous left hand hitter. Since my arm was tired, I think it was better for the team if I rest."

(Obviously, English is not this commenter's first language -- I assume the interview was in Chinese.)

The guy has a couple of other interesting quotes, too. Check it out:

http://tinyurl.com/2zrmdw

5 Speaking of corporate seats, I have 4 tickets to the Yanks/SF game on Sunday that I have to raffle off to our department. Could have kept them myself if I wasn't going to be in Milwaukee. Stupid buddy had to get married this weekend.

9 That was just unfair. I loved the way Reyes was laughing at himself after he did it -- he's a very charismatic guy. It also takes a lot of self-confidence to laugh at yourself in that situation. I tip my hat to him.

On to more important matters...who has info on Kai Liu and Zhenwang Zhang? Is one of them like 7'6" or anything? ;-)

I know I am as guilty as anyone for bitching about Joe every time he mis-manages the pitching staff, so in fairness to him, I feel like I should give him some credit for taking out Wang at his pitch count, rather than worrying about some arbitrary stat. Right or wrong, he did go against the conventional grain for the right reasons. There's no reason to overtax your top pitcher with a 6-run lead, just for the sake of getting him a CG. Now, if Joe could just apply the same logic to the save stat, I would be much happier.

I wanted him to be pulled after eight, so taking him out with one out to go wasn't a very big deal.

12 Hey can I get in on that raffle? Or does anyone else have extra tickets for the Yanks in SF? I'd love to go, but I'm also a cheapskate...

Reyes is a heck of a player, lots of fun to watch and you can see why the Mets fans love him. I wonder if he'll show the same kind of power Jeter has. Reyes hit 19 homers last year, but has only 3 so far this year. The steals are nice, but it will be the power that makes Reyes an elite shortstop.

On another topic, here is a fantastic post about Jorgie:

http://baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=412

The ending is the most interesting part.

Torre's problem has never been leaving starters in too long. It's always been the number of appearances by the set-up guys.
What's really odd about this season is that the first four starters are all going deep into games (assuming Clemens continues to do so) and the BP may end up under-worked before too long. This after a lot of people were saying they'd all be worn out by August.

I think Igawa's going to be an important asset as a solid 5th starter. Of course when Hughes returns, that could be a bit more up in the air.

17 Sorry, can't give them out. But that is "Pride" Day at the ballpark. Maybe if you were real friendly and put on some short shorts...

19 It should be interesting to see how Igawa deals against a national league team. He can walk bonds though. screw him and his chase.

Hey, I wonder if I can get some advice here.
I'm planning to take two of my kids to Cooperstown this summer (very soon if possible). What's a good place to stay? I don't want one of the fancy resorts -- too expensive and mainly wasted on my sons anyway. They'd want a pool, that's probably the only non-negotiable requirement. I've been poking around on-line, hadn't realized how expensive it is (almost nothing < $200/night).
Any advice appreciated.

21 Why waste 3 pitches each time. Plunk him. Barry wears enough armor.

I got to see Reyes for a year in A ball (SA League). Even then you could tell that he was much better than most of the guys. IIRC, his team won the SAL championship that year.

18 Posada is so amazingly valuable.

Just a slight sidetrack, for which I apologize, but did anyone notice that Baltimore fired (or is about to fire) Sam Perlozzo? I mention this because they're looking at Girardi as a replacement. I wrote a long piece about it, but much too long to be a comment here, so I put it at my own site if anyone's interested...

http://tinyurl.com/3bl8jk

The odd coincidence is that Sam got fired primarily for the things we criticize Joe for AND for doing something Joe just did; apparently Sam did not enjoy nearly the same amount of support from his crew. But what if Girardi does tackle the job? Does that mean Mattingly is The Chosen One? (or Michael Corleone as the case may be...)

Interesting...

19 It will take half a dozen consecutive quality starts before I have even a shred of faith in Igawa. I hope he makes a fool out of me.

7 (In fairness, though, Derek did make a nice play to his left last night, a play I was surprised he made.)

On the other hand, in the ninth inning of Saturday's game, Jeter barely waved at a grounder about three feet to his right.

I was mightily impressed with Reyes, and I think there's a strong case to be made that, right now, he's a better player than Jeter. For starters, any comparison of their defense is laughable. Jeter's a much more consistent hitter, but he doesn't hit for much power, either - Jeter's only got 2 more homers this year, but Reyes makes up for it with triples. And the youngster's got 30 more stolen bases already...

I love Jeter, so I can't be dispassionate. But offer me an even-up trade, and that love is the only thing that would hold me back.

18 Hey Shaun, I know we don't see eye-to-eye on this and I'm not trying to stir it up, but I can't see how you can say that.

If Reyes can still 50 bags a year and hit .300 and keep up his defense, he's an elite shortstop, even if he hits 5 homers a year, which I suspect he won't, but even if he did, he's looking pretty elite to me.

If he continues to learn to steal bases then basically you walk him and you're looking at a double, maybe even a triple, and the chances of pitchers throwing mistakes to the numbers two three and four guys has to go up, except for the most elite of veteran pitchers.

Again, not trying to be combative, but I'm not quite sure how you can overlook all that.

27 Oh, believe me, I make no apologies for Derek's defense.

At this point, I wish there were a face-saving way to get he and Alex to switch, for the good of the team.

28 I don't think he or any of us are overlooking that, Weep. However, the average fan, like it or not, loves homers. I think David Wright is not a superior player or athlete to Jose Reyes, but the reason why he got far more money than Reyes is because he hit more homers than Reyes. Same with Soriano. People in general are in love with the long ball, and Jose Reyes could be the next coming of Vince Coleman (but with a much more tolerable personality) or even Ricky for that matter, but unfortunately will not be regarded as the elite player en totale unless he either hits for more power or wins a few championships with his skills. Speed is his game, and speed will be the first thing to go with almost all players (even before power). For that matter, the Mets may have known that when they gave Wright a bigger, longer contract than Reyes.

An elite shortstop, yes he is or will be. I like that he's turned out to be the real star on that team. But in my opinion, he has a ways to go before he's regarded as an all-time elite player.

Hey #22, i live in oneonta, which is 20 minutes from cooperstown. i apologize for the lodging situation, it's really insane. it's all about demand, there aren't a lot of hotels/motels, and during the summer, there are a ton of people in the area.

there are currently two baseball tournament camps running, each with 15-20 teams or so, plus the usual HOF tourists, plus the local Belgian brewery has been doing a lot of promotional events. there are a lot of little bed and breakfast type places that charge from $50-100 a night, plus the Super 8 in Oneonta. I can give you a lot more info if you want, email me at michael.popek AT gmail.com. i don't want to threadjack too much.

I hate to bring stats into this SS discussion.

But as of today, VORP for Jetes is 30.1 while Reyes is 32.1. So case closed -- Reyes is better!

Oh wait. But VORP is a counting stat so that includes playing time. If you want to look at rate. Jeter's rate VORPr is .431 while Reyes' is .443. So still Reyes is better!

But what about EQA? It turns out that BP has Reyes ranked right over Jeter:
Name Team(s) Pos Out PA EQA EQR RAR RAP RARP
JOSE REYES NY_-N SS 198. 315. 0.306 51.5 26.3 18.4 27.2
DEREK JETER NY_-A SS 186. 309. 0.301 46.1 22.5 14.9 23.2

Then what about defense? Mets currently rank #1 in team defensive efficiency. The Yanks are #7. Someone else can figure out who is a better defensive player. My belly full of guts says Reyes.

Obviously, the long term answer is Reyes since he is so young and has a belly full of guts to match Jeter's.
Overall as of RIGHT NOW, Reyes is the better player. Will it stay that way? My belly full of guts says that for this year, the answer is no.

Jeter is coming off a year where his VORP was 80.5 -- the next closest was around 65 and it wasn't Reyes. So I expect Jeter to play better offensively. Even if he doesn't match last year's performance, a VORP is 65 is reasonable. Especially if Abreu continues to be hot and hit behind him.

28 Chyll captured some of my points in his 30, but here's my long-winded response anyway. =)

28 Our typical difference of opinion, weeping. =)

Consider this. Jeter tends to hit .300, and plays defense well enough (I have no idea what advanced metrics think of Reyes) - so let's say they're even with the glove. What are the differences?

Derek averages a little more than 20 SBs a season, which gives Reyes a 30 SB or so advantage. (We'll also presume they steal at an equally proficient rate, but I believe Jeter is a little more efficient.)

But Jeter averages around 15 HRs a year - a 10 HR advantage over your hypothetical Reyes stats.

So what's worth more, 10 extra HRs or 30 extra SBs?

I'm no advanced statistical guy, but let's look at how many runs each score on average. I know runs are a contextual stat, but if there is one thing you'd think SBs would help, it would be runs scored. The steal almost entirely eliminates the DP and puts Reyes in position to score on a single.

But . . .

Jeter averages about 120 runs/season, while Reyes (so far) averages about 95 runs/season.

So it seems like the extra HRs are worth more.

Remember too, that Jeter's power makes pitchers more afraid to pitch him, especially with runners on base, because he could hit one out. If Reyes comes up with runners on, a pitcher is going to be less worried, because Reyes can't steal if the base ahead of him is occupied. And while Reyes' is certainly pesky on the basepaths, there is strong evidence that having a pesky runner on doesn't affect pitchers enough to make a difference.

Without lots of power, I think Reyes is, and will be, a very good shortstop. But not an elite (say Hall of Fame) one.

30 Point taken, Will, and I'm glad you mentioned Rickey, because he was clearly at the forefront of my mind. He developed power, but even without the power, walking him was an automatic double and to me, it's hard to beat that because that kind of offensive contribution is just so, so reliable and slump-proof.

I guess it's about the definition of the word "elite," but I guess my only point is that I don't believe someone needs to hit with power to be considered an elite player if they make other offensive contributions.

Semantics, maybe.

33 Point taken, Shaun.

I guess to me, the very last thing I think about as far as Derek goes is power. His homeruns just don't factor in much to my assessment of him. He hit 24 or whatever it was in 1999, and that was great, but last year he hit 13 or whatever it was, and frankly, I didn't miss those extra homers. I never thought that his value had depreciated because of that, though perhaps statistically it had.

I'm not sure how afraid pitchers are of Derek hitting one out. That was Alex's big dig, remember? About pitchers not being afraid of him, but rather of Bernie and Tino and Paulie?

As to the value of 10 extra homeruns or 30 extra stolen bases, it's hard to say.

The thing about the stolen bases is that they're reliable, a great weapon even if the pitcher brings his A-game, even if the hitter's slumping. You can count on speed more than you can the long ball.

And as I say, I don't know how you measure the impact of speed on rattling the pitcher and driving up his mistakes to the next batters, but every player always mentions that, which leads me to believe there's something to it.

And the threat of the steal also makes it hard to walk Reyes, which means his speed could get him more extra-base hits just because no one wants to walk him so they throw him a meatball which he could hit hard and end up on second or even third anyway.

I know the stuff I'm talking about probably isn't measurable, but I'm not sure it's voodoo either.

And as to defense, just from watching Reyes, I don't think there's any comparison to Derek.

In general, one of the things about the stats is that they don't necessarily reveal how one individual performance affects the performances of the rest of the team, which should be taken into account.

When do the personal feats of the athletes make their teammates better?--it's still a team sport, afterall.

34 I agree with you, man. It's just that most people (and I gather the HoF voters) wouldn't, and as Shaun points out, that's why. I wish: 3 Reyes + 3 Jeters, + 1 Alex + 3 Jorges + 2 Miggies (the Mantle editions)+ 2 Melkies + 3 CMWs + 2 Andys and a case of Moes = Dynasty. But with runners in scoring position and two out, who do you want at the plate, Reyes or Jeter?

25 Nice blog, Chyll. Keep up the good work. I plan to stop by every chance I get.

I really hope Girardi doesn't take the Baltimore job - #1 we'd lose a potential managerial candidate post-Torre, and #2 we'd have to compete against him in our own division.

37 Thanks a whole lot, Bama! I can't wait to get the comic strips up and going, I'll let you all know about that at least >;)

33 First off, let's not say they're equal with the glove. It's not even close, and I really don't need stats to demonstrate that. I've watched Jeter for a dozen years, and Reyes makes plays Jeter can only dream of. Reyes also has a much stronger arm.

As for the power, Reyes had 19 homers and 17 triples last year. His isolated power was 40 points higher - in fact, his slugging average was higher, despite the disparity in batting average. The homers may have been a fluke, but the triples certainly weren't - and in any case, Reyes is no 5-HR hitter.

Jeter's power is definitely not what separates him. His power isn't really that big a deal. It's his consistency, his ability to churn out hits game by game. Not a lot of walks, not a lot fo power, but an extremely consistent average hitter.

38 I'm really not worried about competing against the Orioles. They're a long way from being good, no matter who the manager is.

40 Agreed, JL, pretty much across the board.

Especially with the glove; it's clear that Reyes is superior on that count.

His hands are surer, his range is greater, his arm is stronger.

The one thing I'm not sure about is if Reyes is as good on those outfield popups, though I seem to recall him being pretty smooth on those as well.

Also, I'm not sure about how Reyes handles pressure, because that's a big thing about Derek, the fact that he rarely makes errors in big spots.

That one he made in Game 6 against Florida was huge, as it allowed the second run to score late in the game, but otherwise, his strength is his consistency and the unflagging focus that accounts for it.

Wang along with Andy, Rodger, & Moose makes our Starting rotation much better than expected. Mattpat11, hello from your favorite imbecile, LOL

42 And I can say the same - agreed, pretty much across the board.

I also wondered about Reyes on popups, because that's the one thing Jeter does exceptionally well on defense. It still doesn't make up for all those ground balls Reyes gets to.

As for pressure, it's hard to say, but this weekend helped Reyes's case a little. Unless something really surprising happens, we should get more of an idea come October.

No question that pressure rolls off Jeter's back. I'm not convinced that he performs better under pressure, just that he doesn't let it affect him at all.

44 Exactly, he's consistent, which is why (personally) I can never tell from watching him if he's in a slump, or if he is, why.

With other guys, it's clear pressure gets to them because they'll give away ab, lunging, swinging at pitches they should take, taking pitches they should swing at, etc.

This is what Alex seems to do when he's not right and it certainly has seemed in the past that pressure (or who knows what) has effected his game, because his swing is always true, but his balance is the first thing to go when he's off.

Derek is caught off-balance his fair share, but I've never really noticed that when he's not getting hits it's because he's off-balance more or because he's fooled more.

I pretty much always know what I'm going to get with him.

But again, I put it out to everyone, how do we account for Derek's falling from the .350s to the .320s in a space of a about 3 weeks?

Anyone notice any change at all in his at-bats, because I sure didn't. He just didn't seem to be hitting as many line drives, but mechanically, he looked the same to my eyes.

45 What exactly is the difference between being "off-balance" and being "fooled," other than either blaming the hitter or crediting the pitcher? A hitter is off-balance when he is fooled. The reason Jeter's batting average has dropped somewhat is that he hasn't been getting hits. The same reason Arod's average ever falls. The same reason anyone's average ever falls. I'm not going to dispute how great a hitter Jeter is. He's great. But you can't just say you feel like he isn't slumping when he is, whereas you feel like Arod really is when he is. Why do you have that feeling? Maybe because Arod is a power hitter so his slumps are more apparent. Maybe because you like Jeter more so you make excuses for him. Maybe because you don't notice everything. I really don't know why you have certain impressions. But feelings don't make a hitter good or not. Results do. And no one on this team has had better results, this year or in his career, than has Arod. Last year was a different story, but like I said, even the best hitters have off years. And maybe he was actually hurt. He was making weird side-arm throws from 3rd that have seemingly turned back into strong throws and overall excellent defense. To be honest, as great as Jeter has been, he has never been the big bat in the lineup, and when he has a bad week or a bad month, it isn't nearly as apparent as when Bernie Williams did or Alex Rodriguez does.

45 I know this sounds too simple, but maybe he's tired? Jeter has mentioned from time to time that it's hard to sustain a certain level of play over an entire season, and this season has been more difficult than most, so maybe he's just tired. Still, he'd rather invite Alex over for a slumber party than admit that he's tired or hurt, so... He's had to carry the team for a longer period than others times in the recent past, which may partly explain A-Rod's sudden drop in May (the other being the alluded pressure you mentioned.) Same thing will happen (or is happening?) with Jorge. But the thing with these guys is that they bounce back pretty well, and if Bobby, Godzilla and A-Rod keep their current pace while the others catch their breaths, they'll get back even quicker.

Funny thing with him as well, he'll go through a seemingly long dry spell, then come back in hit or reach base forty-five games in a row. He always has a way of contributing when other things don't work, which is remarkable in this day and age. I wouldn't worry, Weeping, he'll be all right...

46 I think we're talking past each other.

I'm not quite sure how to respond...