"Fast-moving" and "Jose Contreras" should never be in the same sentence.

A great win to be sure. I didn't mind Moose getting pulled, only because he gets so rattled lately when someone makes a mistake behind him (Cairo - ugh). I turned it off when Myers gave up AJ's single - the wife wanted to go to bed, and (for those of you who haven't been in the situation) you do not argue with a woman who is a day before her due date. =)

Imagine my happy surprise when I turned on ESPNEWS this morning!

Moose is annoyed, no doubt. Maybe next outing he'll be allowed to pitch through a jam in the seventh (or better yet, no jam).

Interesting fact: the Red Sox brass (Theo & Co.) didn't watch Schilling's ninth inning yesterday afternoon, because they were behind closed doors, on the clock for the draft. As we know, the Yankees did watch...

While I can understand Joe's decision, I can't blame Mussina for being angry. It's clear that Torre has lost confidence and we all know how stubborn he can be.

Now, if the Yanks can just get rid of Farnsworth . . . paging Wayne Krivsky and Pat Gillick . . . you know, Philly is pretty down on Pat Burrell, who IIRC played a nifty first base in college . . .

2 Thanks, MFD. If you guys don't see me for a couple of days, you'll know why.

This weekend should be interesting for me. No mlbtv. I get so used to it. This weekend it is all fox sports net pittsburgh. Thank god for my dvr. But watching the games on tv seems so strange...

I just figured out what "wsporter" means. Is it a secret?

He does still have the OBP and I confess I haven't actually seen him lately, but those numbers don't exactly inspire me with confidence...

From Peter Abraham on the Yankees Lohud blog:

"You should have heard the clubhouse when Shannon Stewart busted up 38pitches.com's no-hitter. Cheers from the back of the room to the front."

Even the Yankee players were celebrating Stewart busting up Schilling's no hitter. LOL!

I hope the Yanks do something special this year, I am sure a great many will be eating crow as far as Torre is concerned. I love Torre's humility and how he always references where he came from and what he was. He knew he was a losing manager before he got to NY and he's so comfortable in his own skin that he knows he got the chance of a lifetime when he was asked to manage the Yankees.

I honestly didn't have a problem with Torre removing Mussina, I swear every time I see the guy pitch I feel the wheels are going to come off at any point during the game with Moose. I don't feel that way with no other Yankee pitcher. I kind of expect it with the Chase Wright's of the world, but Moose has a great resume but he's got no fastball and that's all that matters now. Fastball > resume. Moose, you aren't the same pitcher stop your bitching and acting like you are the same pitcher.

"Clueless Joe", you've made a great made this Yankee fan proud. You've handled yourself with dignity and class in the most trying of times. For that, I extremely grateful. Let's go Yanks!!!!

Damn, I have 2 kids (ages 4 and 1) and both were sleeping through the night by the time they were 9 months old. I guess I lucked out...

Torre has had a great run and earned Yankee immortality. I hope he adds an amazing comeback to his resume. Either way, I also hope this is his last season and that his departure is handled gracefully by both sides.

14 I'm with you right down the line on that one.

What manager in baseball is a good bullpen manager? The bullpen is usually stocked with one or two good pitchers and a bunch of scrubs and failed starters. With a few exceptions, they are almost by definition disposable. Get one you can get out of them for a few years then restock with fresh arms.

Farnsworth is the 8th inning guy. That's what he's paid to do. If he sucks, it's not Joe's fault. He might lose his job to Bruney or one of the others, but until that happens the only way he's going to fight his way out of his funk is to get into games. If he can't be trusted in a close game, then Cashman has to move him. That's not Joe's job.

I tend to agree re: Joe's bullpen management, but you gotta admit - the artist has to paint with the colors he's given. Joe's options are limited and every bullpen move he makes can look bad due to general suckiness of the pitchers.

Is that 4 9th inning home runs for A-Rod this year so far? Holy smokes.

12 This may be a ridiculous line of thinking, but the Philly phans don't like Burrell any more than they liked Abreu . . . and that deal has worked out pretty well. =) In all seriousness, Burrell is 29, so he probably isn't toast. His numbers vs RHP are quite good (.259/.421/.429, 31 BB vs 27 Ks!). His numbers vs LHP are awful .169/.315/.356) but given his career numbers vs LHP (.272/.403/.528!), I'm thinking that he's due for a big course correction. Also note his BABIP - .260, which is low - and his EqA of .284, which is very good. Get him now, while Gillick and Philly think he's toast, before he goes on a tear and becomes unmovable.

He does have a full no-trade, but something tells me he wouldn't mind coming to the Yanks - and I'm sure the Phils would love to drop his $14M salary for '08. They do have to pay Howard eventually.

Finally, if anyone hasn't seen this yet, prepare to laugh your rear off:

http://tinyurl.com/2fc7gu

Derek Zumsteg is a very talented writer.

16 I understand the bullpen management issues people have, but that's not the only criteria required to manage a team. Every manager has flaws. But people love to go off on Torre's bullpen management as if that's the only thing a manager is suppose to do. If you read just about any baseball blog related to a team then you'll find a great number of people bitching about their managers' bullpen management.

Also, earlier in the year Torre's starters were awful so it became even harder to manager the pen correctly. Would you agree with that statement? As bad as Farnsworth is, the Yanks still have to see what they got with him and at least try and get two decent outings from him so they can try and trade his sorry ass.

The other thing I don't agree with is that just cause a pitcher was awesome in the minors doesn't automatically qualify him as the 8th inning guy. I certainly feel you have to ease some of these relief pitchers that you have in the minors into a role that fits. It's not an easy thing to do as a manager. I'm sure the Red Sox never thought Okajima was going to be their best reliever before Papsmear. You find out certain things. Will that be Britton, will it be Bruney, or will it be someone else. Who knows?

Who was the right choice to come out of the pen instead of Farnsworth? Proctor was already used up. I really think the Yanks are trying to trade Farsncrap and see if he can help them too - basically maximizing one of their trading chips.

Maybe this'll somehow motivate him or something, not that he hasn't been motivated, but maybe the embarassment gives him an extra edge or something.

He really was pissed, and pissed at the reporters for even asking the question, the ole puss.

I actually thought Joe did the right thing by pulling him, because he has had this propensity to go from Jeckell to Hyde in no time flat, and next thing you know they've scored five runs.

Good job, Joe.

22 Wasn't ESPN all over Papi as MVP this early when he (Ortiz) had all those 9th inning heroics?

And boy did Mo look sharp last night.

Trying hard not to get too excited at the possibilities.

He stared daggers at Phelps after that and I knew that was it.

Lighten up, Mike!

Man am I out of the loop, but that's ok, because we're seeing some not half-bad baseball again!

As to Moose, I think the trick maybe isn't his pitch count, but how many times through the lineup. He's still good enough to fool guys and keep 'em off-balance when he's sharp, but not three times, probably.

Girardi pointed out that Konerko, was it?--was sitting curveball and thus hammered it.

Moose sneaked a first-pitch 86mph heater right over the dish and Konerko just leaned back and said, "That ain't my style."

Looking for the breaking ball, he smashed it on the next pitch.

My advice is to let Moose pitch five and then pull him at the sight of the first hard hit ball.

I take last night's outing as a sign of good things to come from Moose. Maybe he doesn't want Roger to show him up too much. Whatever it is - Cranky Mike is Good Mike.

Email me: jen AT nosenseworrying DOT com

I don't know whose fault it was, but my thinking was "Well, that's the kind of stuff that happens when you use the shift."

I don't know who Moose was pissed at, but he was clearly staring daggers in the general direction of the play.

Maybe he was cursing God for sending such miserable fortune his way, who knows.

What a grouch.

RJ was a grouch too, but for some reason a wholly unsympathetic one. Mussina's puss is somehow endearing to me, I don't know.

You gotta wonder if this guy might become unhinged at some point...

Bruney, and it shouldn't even be close to being a choice. Yes, Bruney walks guys (16 in 24 IP, worse than Kyle's 13 in 24.1 IP). But Bruney has given up 1 HR to Kyle's 3, struck out 24 to Kyle's 13, and gives up fewer extra base hits (5; 3 2B, 1 3B, 1 HR) than Kyle (7; 4 2B, 3 HR).

Shoot, Bruney even looks better out there than Farnsworth.

What is frustrating is that Joe Torre has access to the same info, but he continues to go to Kyle in the 8th. Even though last night has happened many times over the last two years - Joe has to remove Kyle to give Mo a multi-inning save because Kyle couldn't hold the lead!

I agree with most everything you said about Torre in 14 Dimelo, but the formulaic bullpen managing has been actively hurting the Yanks since 2001. This year, it might be the difference between a miraculous comeback and golf in October. Everyone is entitled to their flaws and blind spots, but if Torre doesn't get it after 7 years of seeing it fail over and over - that's just awfully frustrating.

I might be projecting...

14 Word, Dimelo.

So, playing ball with the kid (4 1/2) in the backyard yesterday. He's pitching to me.

I squared to bunt, then pulled back and hit the ball, but he wanted me to bunt, so after he retrieved the ball, he cried "Ok, batter..."

Then he checked himself, realizing he didn't want me to "bat," but rather to bunt and ventured, "Bunt up!"

"Bunt up!"

So evidently, my own kid shares the sentiments of Kurt Schilling that bunting doesn't even qualify as batting.

Kids today, man, kids today.

Mussina sure does have a mean streak in him. Too bad his pitches don't reflect it.

I think between all of us Banterers we can pull enough money together to get Kyle some Lasik surgery, donchathink?

I just read this comment over at WasWatching and this person (dereksTeam) is saying the same thing much better than me:
-----------
"Farnsworth has been utter crap this year and Torre continues to run him out there for the eighth."

I agree with your assessment of Farnsworth but I don't understand how you view the manager's role. Are you saying that if you were a GM,you would tolerate a manager not playing your multimillion contract "Bridge" to Rivera?

I think Joe threads a difficult job. You know he agrees with you. The Yankee announcers agree with you. Joe will continue to play Farnsworth until he gets traded, sent down, or the coaches coach him successfully and he gets better. That's the team that has been assembled for Joe.

If Joe needs a starter and they give him XXX, do you fault him for starting XXX? He doesn't control that. You sound like he should be sending in Okajima.

Who pitches Sunday? Clippard?

The Rays, for their part, have been outscored 344-273, yet they're only a game behind us.

Isn't that kind of amazing, that despite the offensive struggles, we're still outscoring opponents? Has the pitching really been that good?

In fact, we've outscored the entire division, including Boston, but they've allowed like fifty fewer runs.

I don't know what to make of all this, but doesn't it suggest that acquiring another bat is really not priority number 1?

What do you guys make of these figures?

Meanwhile, the American Association for the Protection of Worms (AAPW) will be protesting Tuesday's matchup of Chien-Ming Wang and Brandon Webb. There's gonna be a lot of em killed that day.

40 Wasn't that this season?

Joe rolls the dice every time he walks to the mound, even with Mo, just like every other manager in baseball. When Cashman gives him good pitchers to use, it works out for the best more often than it doesn't.

Some years the team lucks out and finds a handful of scrub pitchers who have good years - and those teams win a lot of games and Joe looks like he's always "pushing the right buttons". Same with the bench. Other years, the scrubs in the bullpen struggle with their control, or velocity, or injuries, or whatever, and things don't go so well and Joe looks like an idiot.

To automatically blame every bad outing from the bullpen on "bad bullpen management" doesn't make much sense to me.

Is Joe perfect in how he handles the staff? No. Show me one manager who is - and I'll show you a bullpen that is having a "good" year. Give the same manager a different mix of pitchers and they'll look a lot dumber.

Yes, he has been given a set of assets which, when assembled, were assumed to fulfill certain strategic roles. But Torre has also been handed the responsibility to use those assets as he see fit tactically in order to give the team the best chance to win. If that means batting A-Rod eigth even though he is a "clean-up guy" or occasionally using Mo for two innings even though he is the "closer" or moving Abreu around even though he is the "number three guy", so be it--that's his job.

To continue to trot Farnsworth out in high leverage eighth inning situations just because he is the "eighth inning guy" is simply poor managing at worse, and spineless or lazy managing at best.

What it says is that the Yankees first quarter of the season was plagued by a combination of bad luck and terrible bullpen pitching. The offense has been fine, as the absence of Giambi is offset by the emergence of Abreu and Cano from early-season slumps.

All things being equal, the Yankees can expect to play above .550 for the rest of the season. If Scott Proctor and Brian Bruney are moved ahead of Kyle Farnsworth on the Wheel of Guts, the Yankees' ability to win close games should return to normal. The playoffs, for a team that scores 950 runs and only allows 750, is not out of the question.

Ha!

Acquiring a bat:
If there were a good pitcher available, I'd be for getting him, but a bat will certainly help. It's not as if 5.5 runs per game is somehow 'enough'! Scoring more means winning more. Right?

45 Excellent, Chone Chacaun! Or maybe it's Chacean.

Adding an arm (shut-down starter or great BP arm) would be good, but not if you have to give up the farm for it. On the other hand, if MLB quality 1B was available for the right price, or a nice platoon bat could be scooped up off the waiver wires or for a marginal "prospect," then the move should be made.

Frankly, despite the improved play of late, the team could be improved at 1B, CF, DH, bench, BP, and SP, so there is no reason to be too fussy over exactly how to imrove the roster.

Of course, that costs Mo the save, and NO manager is going to do that.

We are all absolved of that because there are no emotions in any of our decisions, as it pertains to the Yankees and bullpen management, etc. There's a reason they are professionals and we aren't. For as great as people think Bill James is then why isn't he managing? I for one don't care for James because of his undying hate anything Yanks and his smug attitude, but I'm sure the fact that he has very few if any socially redeeming qualities have a lot to do with why he'll never be a manager at a Wal Mart, let alone a baseball team.

All those things have to come into play when considering what's a good manager. Call me stupid, ok you said it "STUPID", but I think when you look at Torre as a whole he is far better than a lot of other managers. Could he do things better? Definitely. Can't we all? I can't sit here and throw stones knowing quite well that if I were in the same position I wouldn't do a better job. I guess that's what tugs at me, can a lot of you that go off on Torre actually feel you can do a better job managing the Yanks?

To me there's a whole lot more that goes into managing than just bullpen management.

There has to be a point when Kyle Farnsworth is simply not the best option to pitch the 8th inning of a close game. I think most of us here would agree that he has reached that point. Brian Bruney and Scott Proctor are, at this moment, more effective relievers than Kyle Farnsworth, and they should be getting more high-leverage situations. Just because he was signed with the belief he'd be an effective 8th inning pitcher doesn't mean the Yankees should suffer because of it.

If wishes were horses, we'd all be covered in crap.

To be sure, and you make a number of good points. One of teh reasons we (or Bill James) would never succeed as managers is because (I think) players have to think that you have credibility--Torre played the game and in some way is able to communicate with and garner the respect of the players. That is incredibly valuable, and we all probably overlook that too much.

That said, I do not see the difference between moving players around the line-up (or for that matter, not starting Phillips early last year when he was the designated BU 1B, but instead putting a career middle infielder in his place), and changing the role of the nominal set-up guy who has not done his job.

There was another episode where one of the BP guys, maybe ESP after he did something dumb, went up to Joe and begged to be put in the game that day. I remember the folks here on the Banter blasting Torre for inserting the pitcher, well before we heard about the special request.

A lot goes into these games that we don't have exposure to. Not all the time, of course, but we're dealing with human beings, not video games. If managing was just looking at a stat sheet, there's no need for a manager. Just hook up a laptop in the dugout and have it blink once for bunt, twice for pitch-out, three times for Everyday Scottie Proctor, etc.

Saying we'd do something different than Joe doesn't mean the results would be much different.

At the same time, I gather that Torre probably knows the fine points of actually throwing and hitting pretty well and can relate well to the players on that level. He was a batting champion and all.

What should the Yanks do with Farnsworth then? They don't have the luxury of moving him to first. What do you think would happen if they just bring him in to mop-up? Wouldn't Torre be making Cashman's job harder?

Between GM and manager there has to exist a quid pro quo. Torre making Farnsworth the mop-up guy would be throwing Cashman under the bus, do you agree? That's why the best thing would be if they can get Farns traded, then Torre doesn't make Cash look bad and Torre doesn't have to use him in the 8th.

Plus the only reason you'd move Damon to first is so Jason isn't playing first, and you can DH him and put Melky in CF. It's a move where all parties involved are happy, but I don't think the same can be said for Farnsworth.

But those things are not relevant to the point at hand, which is: Joe Torre does not use his bullpen well. He has made the same mistakes over and over for years. The evidence of those mistakes is overwhelming, and well-documented both here and elsewhere. (See many of Cliff's posts from the sidebar. Read Steven Goldman's archives. Etc.) Yet Torre does not learn from his mistakes, or change his ways. That is incredibly frustrating to me as a fan. Its like watching Soriano swing at the slider away again and again.

Bullpen management is just one of many components of managing. Maybe I'm just nitpicking in the end - Torre does most things pretty well, and no one is perfect.

But I don't think its too much to ask for Torre to recognize that Farnsworth isn't pitching well, and ought not to be pitching the 8th inning when there are better options available. I also don't think that's an insult to Joe Torre. We all have our blind spots, but we are all also responsible for learning from our mistakes and not repeating them.

Last thing, then I'm done. The process is what's important, not so much the results. If the process is sound, the results will be right most often. Even if Bruney came in and melted down just like Farnsworth did last night, I'd be applauding Torre for recognizing and using the superior option. Its always better to lose with your best option used, even if that best option did not execute (see Game 7 '01 Serious). Its far worse to lose with better options not used (see Game 4 '03 Serious).

Let's be honest - he can't possibly be any worse than Phelps or Giambi.

Gotta be very frustrating for Joe and Gator knowing what he is (was?) capable of and just not seeing it this season. Hard to totally give up on a guy who has such an upside.

But hey - at least he has the ultimate safety valve in Mariano Rivera to ride in on his white horse and save the day. Whoa be the day that comes to an end.

Farnsworth is the latest living example of Torre's love of formulas (based not on stats, but on roles). Who says Farnsworth has to be the 8th inning guy? What is an 8th inning guy anyway? You can't tell me that Cashman signed Farnsworth for that specific role. Last night, Torre said something like, "we still need to get Farnsworth straightened out". That disturbs me because he should be saying "we need to put Farnsworth in lower leverage situations". Whether it was the bewildering use of Sturtze and Heredia, or his infatuation with Jose Vizcaino, Torre seems to make bullpen decisions based on defined structure, irrespective of match-ups and recent performance.

In addition to bullpen management, I think Joe is a poor game manager over all. His strategic moves have really been exposed this season. When combined with bullpen mismanagement, I think his handle on the game starts to seriously mitigate against his clubhouse contributions.

Again, I like Joe and am glad he was able to turn around his career in pinstripes. I also look forward to the day when #6 gets retired and Torre's plaque is added to monument park. I also hope, however, that day is sooner than later. Joe will be 68 next season and I sincerely think it is time for him to retire.

That's why I wish Torre would let him work during blowouts or in low leverage spots (like vs the bottom of the lineup). I think Farnsworth has lots of value - but I'm not sure he should be working on finding it when the game's on the line! =)

71 You're welcome.

so I think the question is not what we NEED so much as "is it easier and cheaper to improve our hitting or our pitching"? given that we're playing marginal guys at a position where talent is usually easy to come by (because of low fielding requirements), I think it's easier to improve the offense by getting a real 1B; second best is converting one of our outfielders to 1B (we'd choose Matsui, but the team choice seems to be Damon) and making Phelps part of a DH platoon.

in other words: adding a guy who can mash from the left side. he dosen't have to have any other skills. those guys should be out there.

improving the bottom half of our bullpen should also be easy because if Viz and Myers and Farns broke their arms tomorrow, Britton and Henn and my kid sister could hardly do worse....but it may be that only a "name" reliever will dislodge Farn$....

of course, farnsworth's physical limitations are no help in this matter ...

that said, if Joe is using Farns because he dosen't wanna make Cash look bad, that's not normal. Cash has to cut bait. I hope we're waiting for one good late-inning outing and then he's traded. another option wd be to just dl him: look at his K rate this year, way way down, one sign of possible arm trouble. that way nobody loses face, right?

I don't think of him as the Moses that a great many of you do. I've read his work and I actually think he confuses things, or at least confuses me. I actually find Shandler to be better than him, his methods make a lot more sense and I understand they aren't mutually exclusive of each other. I really enjoyed Fantasyland when I read it and the part where Shandler talks about James bugged me too. It validated some of the things I already felt about him, then I read his last Handbook and the book "In the Mind of Bill James" and I just had enough of him.

I've always enjoyed the Forecaster and when he explains the formulas, etc, I find him to be a better and objective writer. He goes off on everyone equally, if he has to go off. I feel James adds a certain touch when he talks about the Yanks, and that bugs me. Sorry.

Yanks come before anything James produces.

68 Shaun, very eloquent.

68 Very well said, Shaun. And I love your analogy!: "That is incredibly frustrating to me as a fan. Its like watching Soriano swing at the slider away again and again."

My problem with Torre is, as others have mentioned, that he's inflexible and has no inclination to improvise if the situation seems to call for it.

I think if he were better at that he could have picked us up a couple of games, especially by using Mo in unconventional ways. Instead, he's waited to use Mo in the usual way even after it was long clear that the games haven't been going in the usual way.

It's strange because as cob notes 76, he thinks nothing of shuffling the lineup. That's actually something I like about him.

He's much more imaginative about his lineup than about his bullpen, perhaps simply because he's a hitter and not a pitcher.

IIRC, I believe James himself has written that he'd be a horrible manager, because he gets too easily flustered by certain things.

They also drafted Chris Carpenter (21 year old college righty pitcher, and obviously not the Cards' ace), who is supposed to have a lot of upside but has some injury risks attached. Some think he's best in the bullpen. I'm shocked he lasted as long as he did.

I agree that it's usually unwise to spend big money on relievers. I'd build most of a bullpen by bringing every non-roster invitee I could find to spring training - waivers, minor league free agents, Rule 5 picks, organizational soldiers, whatever. Throw them all against the wall and see which ones stick. That's how the Angels found Brendan Donnelly and half of that 2002 bullpen