Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
Winning series has become the Yankee mantra of late, but coming into Fenway this weekend they'd won just one of their last six. That lone series win came against the Red Sox at Yankee Stadium two weeks ago when the Yanks bookended a loss with a pair of wins. This weekend they pulled the same trick, though it was touch-and-go for a while there in game three.
On Friday night, the Yanks beat the Sox 9-5 in a game that was 9-3 after 3 1/2 innings as the Yankees knocked Tim Wakefield out in the top of the fourth. That game was notable for the fact that five batters were hit by pitches, all seemingly unintentionally, though things got tense when Scott Proctor fired a fastball at Kevin Youkilis's chin in the ninth inning and was promptly tossed out of the game. Joe Torre had been ejected earlier in the game for correctly arguing that Bobby Abreu was safe on a caught stealing at third base, a play that happened right in front of the Yankee dugout.
Saturday afternoon, the Yankees overcame a 3-2 Boston lead with a four-run sixth inning that drove Curt Schilling from the game, but Mike Mussina promptly gave up the lead on solo homers by Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek in the bottom of the inning. After Derek Jeter hit a go-ahead homer off Joel Pineiro in the top of the seventh, things went very, very badly. Before the game it was announced that Proctor would not be suspended for throwing at Youkilis the night before, but the Yankees might have preferred that he was. Entering in the seventh, Proctor gave up a double to David Ortiz. He was then ordered to intentionally walk Manny Ramirez, but followed that by unintentionally walking Kevin Youkilis on four pitches to load the bases. Mike Lowell then hit a double-play ball to short, but Robinson Cano made a poor throw to the bag forcing Derek Jeter to reach for the throw and spin before making the relay to first. Jeter's throw bounced in the dirt and, as Doug Mientkiewicz turned toward the foul line to field it, Minky was struck in the back of the head by Lowell's left thigh as Lowell came through the bag. Lowell would have been safe anyway, but the blow gave Mientkiewicz a concussion and as he lay still face down in the dirt, the balled rolled away and both Ortiz and Ramirez scored to give the Red Sox a lead. As Lowell had moved to second on the play, Joe Torre ordered Proctor to walk Jason Varitek. Wily Mo Peña followed by ripping a ball to short that hit Derek Jeter's glove, but trickled through his legs for a bases-loading error. Coco Crisp followed with an RBI single. Brian Bruney then came on and gave up a sac fly to Julio Lugo and an RBI double to Dustin Pedroia before Mike Myers came on to retire Ortiz and end the inning. The Sox added one more off Luis Vizcaino in the eighth to make the final score 11-6.
As for Mientkiewicz, he was diagnosed with whiplash in addition to the concussion, but it seems he also broke the scaphoid bone in his wrist on the play and will be out six to eight weeks because of that. He was placed on the 15-day DL yesterday though no move was made to fill his roster spot. Meanwhile, Roger Clemens was scratched from his scheduled start tonight due to a balky groin. He hopes to take his next scheduled turn on Saturday against the Pirates, but Matt DeSalvo will be recalled to start tonight. Apparently the injury to Mientkiewicz is what will allow the Yankees to recall DeSalvo after just three days in the minors and why they played with a 24-man roster last night.
Speaking of last night, Andy Pettitte and Josh Beckett locked horns in a pitchers duel for four innings, with the Yankees scoring the only run when a second-inning Jorge Posada double was plated by singles by Hideki Matsui and Josh Phelps. Then Beckett ran into trouble in the fifth, as the Yanks loaded the bases on two singles and a walk to bring Alex Rodriguez to the plate with two outs. Rodriguez chopped a 0-1 pitch to Mike Lowell at third, which Lowell barehanded and bounced in the dirt and off Kevin Youkilis's knee at first base allowing Melky Cabrera and Derek Jeter to score, and Bobby Abreu to move to third. Jorge Posada followed by yanking an RBI single into right to make it 4-0 Yanks.
The Red Sox got right back in the bottom of the inning as Varitek, Peña, and Crisp singled to load the bases. Andy Pettitte reared back and struck out Julio Lugo for the first out, but his strike three pitch triggered back spasms and a Dustin Pedroia double and a David Ortiz single later, the game was tied and Pettitte was hitting the showers. Actually, Ortiz's single was played into a triple (technically a single and a two-base error) by Bobby Abreu as the ball dove at his feet as he was charging it, then hopped over his right shoulder. Luis Vizcano came on to intentionally walk Manny Ramirez, but let Ortiz score the go-ahead run on a sac fly and gave up an ultimately harmless Mike Lowell double before finally ending the inning.
The Red Sox nearly added to their lead against Vizcaino in the sixth when Julio Lugo drew a two-out walk from Vizcaino and Dustin Pedroia double to left, but, despite having David Ortiz on deck, the Sox sent Lugo home. Jorge Posada had to leap to catch the relay throw from Derek Jeter, but when he landed his foot blocked Lugo's from touching the plate and he quickly made the tag for the third out.
The Yankees threatened in the seventh when Josh Beckett walked Johnny Damon to lead off his final inning and Bobby Abreu singled off reliever Javier Lopez to put runners at the corners, but Brendan Donnelly got Alex Rodriguez to pop out and Jorge Posada's well-hit drive to center off Hideki Okajima settled into Coco Crisp's glove.
Okajima was less fortunate in the eighth when Hideki Matsui led off with a single and Robinson Cano absolutely tattooed a ball off the triangle in dead center for a game-tying triple. Unfortunately, the Yankees were unable to get Cano home with the go-ahead run as Josh Phelps struck out, and Cabrera and Damon grounded out.
In the bottom of the inning, Brian Bruney walked Coco Crisp with two outs and Julio Lugo reached on a bounding single in the shortstop hole that lept over the outstretched gloves of both Rodriguez and Jeter. Dustin Pedroia then cracked what looked like yet another double into the right field gap, but Bobby Abreu caught it on a dead run heading for the Boston bullpen to end the inning.
With the game still tied, Ortiz, Ramirez, and Youkilis looming in the bottom of the ninth, and Jonathan Papelbon stomping around on the mound, Derek Jeter grounded out and Bobby Abreu struck out to bring Alex Rodriguez to the plate with two out and none on. Rodriguez swung through a 93-mile-per-hour heater on the inside corner for strike one, fouled off another for strike two, then put a perfect swing on a pitch on the outside corner and sent it sailing into the Boston bullpen for a tie-breaking homer.
That set up what was just Mariano Rivera's second save opportunity in the last month. Mo battled Ortiz for ten pitches, including six straight fouls, throwing pitch after pitch right to Jorge Posada's glove. The tenth pitch just missed however. Jorge called for the ball right under Ortiz's hands and Rivera missed out over the plate and Ortiz crushed it. By then, however, the game was being played in a driving rainstorm and the rain, the wind, and the topspin on the ball conspired to drop Ortiz's drive into Bobby Abreu's glove for the first out. Rivera then struck out Ramirez and, after accidentally hitting Youkilis in the forearm on a check swing, struck out Mile Lowell on a check swing to give the Yankees a 6-5 win in the game and a 3-2 series win.
Well, if the Yankees are going to try and make a run at .500, become a legitimate factor in the Wild Card race and at least attempt to make up some ground on the Sox in the Division race, this may be their best shot to pick up ground.
The only decent teams the Yanks are going to face in the next few weeks are the Mets and the Diamondbacks. These next few weeks could be fun (but I'll keep my fingers crossed just the same).
It looks like a nasty injury for Mientkiewicz but I'm excited to see Josh Phelps get a few more starts. Does anyone think the Yanks will consider working out Damon at 1B? I think that is a good fit for the roster and the needs of the team at the moment.
It looks like a nasty injury for Mientkiewicz but I'm excited to see Josh Phelps get a few more starts. Does anyone think the Yanks will consider working out Damon at 1B? I think that is a good fit for the roster and the needs of the team at the moment.
Johnny Damon never played first base. Just cannot believe that he will be able to make the throws, yet alone guard the line. He can barely throw to second from short center. I remember the Mantles playing first. Painful. They need more than a body there.
Left the game for the "penultimate" Soprano's and bed. Damn.
Also, Damon is still a good outfielder. Whether it's the sexy calves or not, he just no longer has the range for center. Why not move him over to left and make Matsui the DH? I'm sure Damon could cover ALOT more ground in the spacious YS left field. Also, it's not like Matsui has a great arm, so Damon's noodle in Left wouldn't be much of a downgrade.
Pettitte was good up until back spasms.
I'll take any win as encouragment.
"Lack of class"
WTF?
I'm getting encouraged about how we're starting to hit Okajima. He doesn't look so scary anymore.
There is 2/3rds of the season left. The team has played like the pu-pu platter for a lot of of the season so far but last I heard the season isn't over yet.
It is early June and the Sox are not invulnerable. Their starting pitching is good but not bullet proof. We've managed to hit all of their best starters hard. At this point we are more afraid of their relievers than their starters.
People talk about the fact that there are something like seven teams between the Yanks and the playoffs. Those teams include the Blue Jays and the O's. Those teams have one and two game leads on us. We have time to make up some ground.
I know it is all a big IF but I don't look at the other teams in the AL and quake in my boots. A good run into the All Star Break(and this team, despite how it has looked could do that)would at least have us looking respectable.
(Sorry for the long post)
One thing that does bother me now (hat tip to Jim Dean) is our bench, which is, well, non-existent. There was absolutely nobody available to pinch hit yesterday. Let's call up a Duncan from Scranton, please.
Not encouraged at all by the win. Sorry. No starting pitching. Questionable defense. Overworked bullpen. Intermittent hitting. And a lack of class.
Sounds like you are describing the Red Sox last night. And leaving that game for the Sopranos definitely indicates a lack of class.
Anyway, his take on the "Ha" play was dead on. I wonder why nobody mentions this: what's more "Bush League" that dropping an easy pop up because somebody yelled something. That's the ultimate Bush League play. And crying about it is even worse.
Getting Phelps more playing time might be nice in the long term (especially offensively and since he is a righty he keeps the line-up from being too left oriented)
Having Minky and Giambi out will force the team to change the makeup of the bench and perhaps Bench Mk II will be better. Here's hoping anyway.
Rumor on Boston radio this morning has Abreu being sent to the ChiSox for Jermaine Dye. I don't know how credible it is. Sounds like the old 'challenge trade'.
The bench is thin now, huh? I bet Cashman is already looking for 'free talent' help. Too bad only the '07 version of Craig Wilson is available; the '04 version would be very useful. =)
"Given the growing desperation of the two teams, is it out of the question Sox general manager Ken Williams would package Joe Crede and Mark Buehrle to the Yankees for Rodriguez, outfielder Melky Cabrera and a live arm or two?"
Tribune, http://tinyurl.com/yr3aur
You can either imagine Ken Tremendous' response, or go look (it's unsurprising).
Torre went so far as hint at the silver lining inside Minky injury cloud, as well. What they lose in defense, they gain in flexibility.
i was at the game on friday night. the crowd was giving it to rodriguez from the warm ups on through the game. during warm ups (there was a tarp over the field, so they didn't take BP) i was right next to the fellas (about 6 feet fron donald arthur mattingly) and rodriguez seemed oblivious to everything. the tabloids, the razzing... he was just crakcking jokes and singing songs. i knew then that he'd be fine.
it must have been so difficult not to blow kisses to the fenway faithful after rounding the bases last night.
i can't imagine how nice that must've felt.
21 Those are all excellent points. That said, Dye is a very good fielder (career 103 RATE in RF, 109 this year) and is cheaper than Bobby, which would be useful for the Yanks. Of course the Sox wouldn't like the money hit, but they do need someone who gets on base with some kind of frequency.
I could see it happening. I'm not saying I'm for it, or against it, but its not crazy, like that Phil Rogers creation 22.
The rub is whether Torre will properly employ the personnel. If he uses Damon exclusivelyt at 1B, then the experiment will be a failure (Damon's bat will not justify him at 1B). If, on the other hand, he uses 1B, DH, and OF as a way to both rest Damon and keep him in the lineup, then it might work OK. Also, using Damon at 1B means less Cairo, which can only be a good thing.
Does anyone feel physically ill sometimes while watching these to teams play? Hmmm...no? Just me? Ah, the cheese stands alone!
I can't believe I misspelled THAT word!
Living up here as a Yankee fan is getting harder and harder. But wins like last nights really help. I keep thinking "wild card" - "wild card" ..... and trying not to focus on the injuries the Yanks have suffered. Many "I hope" sentences ....
I hope Roger comes back really strong.
I hope Jeter/Arod/Posada continue to carry the team
I hope the starting pitching continues to hang in there.
I hope Bobby A comes back around
I hope the Sox can go on a big 4 wins out of, say, 15 games losing streak.
WEEI and it's "Idiots" constantly bash the Yanks. It is truly annoying
Ha!
let's see if the sox can win 9 straight division titles, shall we?
I finally figured out one of the biggest differences between Miller on radio (where he's great) and on TV (where he's awful). On radio he's got a relaxed, conversational, Scully-esque style where nothing's forced. On TV, all of his observations have exclamation points! Julio Lugo is batting .226! But he has 33 runs batted in! From the leadoff spot!
(By the way, if you put the posting number in square brackets you get the linked reference.) [postnumber], like that.
Speaking of mike - it was great to see him pop in on a thread last night, and I hope he hasn't given up on these guys yet!
Scary stat, for those who think the Yanks still "rely" on the home run.
Here are the Yanks who have more than 9 home runs, and their season totals:
A-Rod, 20
(Giambi and Posada are tied for second with 7. Matsui is the only other guy with 5 or more; he has 5 exactly.)
Here are the Yanks who are slugging over .450:
A-Rod, .639
Posada, .582
Jeter, .461
Matsui, .458
I hope Cano and Melky keep waking up. I really hope Matsui finds his missing power. And I really, really hope Phelps starts mashing the cover off the ball.
;-)
No it doesn't. Can you give me one example of a guy with success that lost it because hitters got use to his delivery? It doesn't happen. What makes the delivery works is that it hides the ball and makes it more difficult to pick up. That doesn't change. Will he get hit? You bet. No one's as good as he looked earlier, but he still looks like a solid reliever.
"Simone: I loved that Bobby A. got to redeem his earlier error with that great running catch. Jorgie's catch and blocking the plate was a spectacular play."
No it wasn't. He came down and Lugo ran into his foot. A foot doesn't block the plate. That was a terrible slide by lugo.
WEEI is truly YahooRadio by the way.
They have a great Sat morning show however - some great Yankee callers....
47 Me too, but I'm reveling in it at the moment. (Not WEEI, just being in the middle of a cocky RSN. They aren't good at it.)
One more note on Okajima...he is currently on pace for 74 IP. That isn't a ridiculous amount for a reliver, but Okajima hasn't thrown that many since 1997. Since then, his rounded yearly totals have been...62, 69, 72, 62, 56, 39, 47, 53 and 55.
In other words, if Francona keeps using him at the same pace, he could be Proctorized by the time the Sox need him most.
Finally, taking the point above one step further, it seems as if ALL the Red Sox pitchers have been throwing more innings/pitches than you'd expect. With such a big lead, I wonder if Francona will ease off, and if not, will it come back to haunt him in October?
2. With exactly 1/3 of the season done, we are 6 games behind the Tigers in the loss column for the Wild Card....and that is the encouraging news! What really worries me is that the AL Wild Card Team has averaged 95 wins since 1996.....closer to 96 wins if one discounts Baltimore's 88 wins in 1996, the only year the Wild Card Team had less than 91 wins. To get to 95 wins, the Yankees will have to go 71-37 (.657+) the rest of the season......that translates to 106/107 wins in a 162-game season. Does anyone really think this Yankee Team, with its pitching, defense, injuries, and age, can play like the '61 Yankees (109 wins) for 2/3 of a season??! Even achieving the historical low of 88 wins would require the Yankees to go 20 games over .500 and play .592+ baseball. There is just no more margin for mistakes, slumps, injuries, bad luck, etc., for the remaining 108 games. Let's hope the Tigers, Indians, Twins, ChiSox, Angels, A's, etc., either play below their potential or badly or beat each other up enough so that the Wild Card does not require many wins. Otherwise, the Captain will be home in October for the first time in his career.....and the Yankee-haters will rejoice. One wonders what would happen then in the off-season regarding AROD, other players, Torre, coaches, etc. About the only "untouchable" would be Bob Sheppard!!......and then the Captain.
3. PS - What about Matsui at 1B?
How about Shingo Takatsu.
2004:
Age IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA
34 62.3 40 17 16 6 21 50 2.31
2005:
Age IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA
35 28.7 30 19 19 9 16 32 5.97
The ChiSox released him on August 1; desperate for help, the Mets signed him. He pitched all of 7.7 innings for the Mets (not badly), but they let him go at year's end.
Takatsu then went back to Japan.
I think Okajima is a better pitcher than Takatsu was. But to say "a guy with success that lost it because hitters got use to his delivery . . . doesn't happen" is foolish. Baseball history teaches that very rarely do we ever see something that's never happened before.
Is he a DH these days, or does he play the outfield?
And if so, is he any good?
I'd really like to have a defensively sound team, if possible, which is why I'll personally really, really miss Mientkiewicz.
Man, what a game. And then I actually dreamed that the Yanks won the WS. It was very emotional, and I was all teary.
Tall order, that, I must confess.
Remember that 20-game streak by Oakland a few years ago?
That was unreal.
He wasn't saying that his delivery is his whole game and that once it's cracked, he'll be defenseless, only that the delivery thus far has allowed him to be better than his stuff.
So even a bad series from him is still not hopeless.
But he has cooled down, it's true.
Sure...another team could get hot, which makes the WC somewhat more risky, but I just think the Yankees are clearly [or should be] better than everyone else, but Detroit.
In any case, I think the "unconventional delivery" point is moot for Okajima. He's just not that weird. Sure, he might hide the ball longer than some, but that doesn't throw off batters in the same manner a funky, halting delivery might. In the latter, the batter ends up looking in the wrong place, whereas in the former, the batter has nothing to look at, because the ball just ain't there. Plus, he's a relief pitcher so he'll face individual batters, what, ten times a season? I'm not saying that's not enough time for adjustments, but it's hardly fair to compare that to someone who averaged 210 innings a year for ten years.
I think it's fair to say that he had a poor game.
That said, it's entirely beside the point. He was an average to above average pitcher even after he'd been around a few times and even after his fastball lost the abillity to set up his splitter. As for the year after that, he was 35 and injured, but wouldn't say so, and was throwing 83 MPH "heat". His brilliant manager, Jim Tracy, kept running him out every fifth day.
This is the show I've mentioned a couple times, a main reason (along with little league) that I'm so obsessed with fundamentals!
Anyone remember this?
I think it's the show with the Baseball Wizard, Tommy Lasorda, right?
It's the show that taught me those "three little words, 'I got it.'"
And then they played clips of collisions to illustrate the importance of calling for the ball!
Maybe these kids today are fundamentally unsound because they never had such shows, because they grew up in the age of musclebound sluggers like Brady Anderson.
:)
Anyway, they don't make 'em like this anymore, sadly.
http://www.gaslampball.com/story/2007/6/3/84038/99670
And it's not just JD's range that has suffered. His routes to balls and his overall comfort in CF certainly isn't was it was a few years ago. He has been deteriorating for a while. Even Sox fans, BEFORE he left the team, admitted that.
12 Also.. the shot ARod hit was on a low, outside pitch. It was a laser, line drive. I've seen him hit high, booming shots to RF, but for a line drive to go out in Fenway RF is very impressive.
19 WHY would the White Sox do that?
24 Not to be a bubble burster, but watch Posada's play again. He jumped up to catch the throw, which was high and left. When he came down, his right footed landed exactly in front of the runner's foot, and the runner what actually deflected away from the plate. When Posada applied the tag after the slide, I don't think he had any idea what happened, and just did a perfunctory tag. To me, it was luck, or better yet, the RCNB.
46 Actually, Jason Stark did a very good article and 'Japanese' Pitchers, although I don't think Stark is usually very deep. To summerize, he found that the best Japanese pitchers often had 2 good years, and then feel of a cliff. He mentioned delivery, but also that Japanese pitchers realy more on quality 'junk' (good movement) and offspeed pitches. MLB players like fastballs. One batters accept they are getting 'junk' and llok for it, they become more effective.
Hideo Nomo (First 4 years and career)
2.54, 3.19, 4.25, 5.05 .... 4.21
Kazuhisa Ishii
4.27, 3.86, 4.71, 5.14 .... 4.44
Tomo Ohka doesn't fit the pattern, but his first full years was at 3.12, compared to 4.10 career
Hideki Irabu
7.09 (only 53IP), 4.06, 4.84.... 5.15 career
I can't think of more Japanese SPs. But I do believe that they are usually much better their first 2 years then their eventually carrer.
Of course, age league and others factors apply.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kl-4FSRYagc&mode=related&search=
Good old Earl.
Those were the days.
The dropoff in his third year was because he'd already thrown abou 2,000 professional innnings at that point and his arm (and fastball) was dead.
Damon: I'm not convinced that his range has dropped off all that much. I expect it to decline, of course, but I just looked at his Range Factors and I don't see a clear decline. (It's not a very good statistic, though, so maybe you can find a clear decline.)
ChiSox trade: Guillen likes Abreu a lot.
My point being that there is every indication that Okajima's career tendencies will catch up to him once people see him more, delivery or no...
The 1.85-meter hurler uses a unique style of pitching also known as the "tornado." It begins with him throwing his hands far behind his head -- ball hidden from the batter -- before coming around for the release. The speed of the delivery: 150 kph. "It's very effective," Dodger manager Tommy Lasorda told Asiaweek. "It's difficult for batters to pick up the ball. It's deceptive." Agrees pitching coach Dave Wallace: "When you combine the stuff that he has and the aptitude and the competitiveness of this young man, it's just a wonderful package." Rivals are also impressed. "Everything he does makes you look real ugly," says Al Martin, a fielder for the Pittsburgh Pirates, recently beaten by the Dodgers.
http://tinyurl.com/2fpmfj
And You're Quoting Tommy Lasorda to me? Dude's a fucking tool.
And he forced trades of Pedro and Konerko.
It would be nice if the Tribe reverts to its under-achieving 2006 form, and none of the other teams get hot. A lot of things have to break our way for us to get our total wins in the low 90s and win the WC. I hope we have maxed out our season quota of injuries, bad ump calls, bad luck, slumps, etc.
How confident are the bantors in DeSalvo tonight against the stuggliong ChiSox? Garland was very tough on us the last time, but he is 2-5, 3.42 ERA, 1.34 WHIP vs. the Yankees lifetime.
Enjoyed seeing Sweet Lou's tirade on Saturday......hope he doesn't get suspended for too long.
But even Lou must take a back seat to that tirade by that minor league manager, Phil Wellman. The low crawl and tossing of the rosin bag as a grenade from behind the mound - What an original touch! Do you think he will get 10 games suspension?
Yunnow what I think the emotional turning point was? Mike Plugh coming in and blasting this team. He was spot on and I dunno, probably through some cyberspace karma or something, his words touched a nerve somewhere and this team started fighting, culminating with A-Rod's karmic orgasm and Mo rubbing Lowell's nose in it. Well, this is gonna be a good week no matter what! (no, I'm not high or anything, I'm feeling rejuvenated right when I needed to, or maybe it's cognative disonnance from working 60+ hours in a cubicle two weeks in a row...)
Whatever. I love it when the planets come together >;)
Karma sutra.
Who is Karma Garcia?
105 LOL. Good one, RIYank.
The Piniella act, especially, has grown quite old.
But there's also something to be said for simply letting it go. I've realized it's also very difficult to convince people of things in a forum such as this (or ever, if you're really cynical). So the best bet is in presenting your version, back up your facts where necessary, and then let it go.
Me, I have trouble with that last bit. But I'm trying. Still I get more worked about about the decisions in the off-season because those affect many games. By contrast the in-game decisions usually only affect the game at-hand. For me, it's just easier to go with the flow these days. Different strokes for different folks...
Maybe williamny23 is the Banter's version of A-Rod (if you check the replay of his earlier post you can distinctly hear the word "Ha"). ;-)
BTW, william, being the Banter's A-Rod would be sweet if you could get Alex and Cliff to pony up the $25M per year. Of course, you could alway just opt out and go over to "The Griddle" if Bob Timmermann offered you more money...
Seriously, good job in taking the high road ealier William. Also, kudos to capdodger for the apology 97. I think that is the way Ken likes to see it work around here after those kinds of disagreements.
The belief that others are ignorant when not swayed by one's "compelling argument" is the height of arrogance and bull-headedness.
Endarant.
So here goes:
http://tinyurl.com/227a3a
Short version, for those too lazy: Nomo was consistenly better with the bases empty early in his career, and much better with men on than bases empty later in his career. In his "resurgent" 2001, he was much better with men on base than with the bases empty. I think this gives solid evidence for williamny23's opinion.
My basic supposition is that you can tell if Nomo's tornadoish delivery was fooling batters, or if it was his stuff, because he didn't spin as much from the strech postion. Proof of this comes from the following:
1- Law: Balks are called when a pitcher stops all motion when pitching from the strech.
2- Observation: Nomo's windup included a pause.
3- Statistics: Nomo's strech was different from his windup, because due to (1) and (2)when he threw from the strech in a similar manner to his windup he was called for balks.
4- Statistics: Once acclimated to the umpires, he pitched from the strech with one balk for the remainder of his career.
5- Ergo, Nomo's strech delivery was unlike his windup due to (4) and (3), as it contained fewer balkable elements (less spinning and pausing).
6- Ergo, from (6) if there are any performance differences between Nomo pitching from the windup and nomo pitching from the strech, they can, in some part, be attributed to his "deceptiveness".
From here we can look at the stats and determine if, indeed, Nomo had a better track record with runners on or with the bases empty. Using the splits Baseball Cube there isn't much of a difference, hence I conlude that his deceptiveness is overblown and his effectiveness came from the "stuff" to which Dave Wallace refered. The years in which he was unable to use his "stuff", he was a below average pitcher. When his "stuff" was good he was average to rather above average.
My beef with your argument, Will, is that you continued posting quotes Nomo's windup and statistics about his performance with the bases empty while ignoring the fact that talking about his strech delivery. If you're going to compare a strech delivery to a windup delivery, you want to look at bases empty vs. men on, not bases empty year-over-year. That's not the right stat for what you're trying to say. I mean, heck, the numbers you did provide don't prove a darn thing other than Nomo had his best years 26 and 27. To take that and then conlclude that he fell off a cliff because of his delivery is a rather big leap. Pitchers wear down over time, especially pitcher who throw as many innings as Nomo did. This was why I was glad that the Dodgers "passed" on Matsuzaka. It's the inning man...
I'm sorry I blew up at you Will. I really am. I'll probably flagellate my self for a while if Ken boots me, and he'd be right to. Have a nice day.
Also look at the difference in his Windup-OPS from 1999 (NL) to 2000 (AL): .844 down to .695. He was facing entirely new batters in the American League for the Tigers that year (yes, the big park is an issue as well). The fact that his Windup-OPS returned to career levels in 2001 (despite having his best year since 1996) shows me that the AL hitters had adjusted to the tornado.
Perhaps Nomo's return to effectiveness in 2000-2002 was indeed a result of some re-found velocity. But the point that the league "figured out" how to hit Nomo with the bases empty- the NL in 1997 and the AL in 2001, shows that the delivery has at least something to do with it.
You gotta admit, that's pretty funny.
Who'd have thought Hideo Nomo could engender such acrimony!
Laugh it off, team!
:)
35 Thank you for identifying why Miller can be so annoying. I've tried to describe it without success but you've nailed it.
Once again, I have no problem with your opinion that other factors were involved. I acknowledged as much two times (71 and 74). If you go over it carefully, I never said you were wrong. I just didn't think you provided any compelling evidence to make me change my mind. Even after you have taken time to explain your point more fully, I still don't agree with it, although I do appreciate the approach much more.
With that said, I agree that we should just let the Nomo issue drop.
Hey, I love Hideo Nomo. He won me $100 from my buddy who didn't believe he pitched a no hitter.
That was dwarfed however, by this punk I met in a Boston bar who was adamant that Kenny Rogers never pitched a perfect game. Thanks for the $300 slick, and for illustrating what I already knew about most Sox fans. A drunk and underinformed Red Sox fan, how novel.
Thanks Yankees.
What is a "fatigued groin" anyway? Sounds like something Wilt Chamberlain may have experienced.
I hope last night was a turning point, but the pitching match-ups for the ChiSox series worry me.....Garland vs. DeSalvo; Buehrle vs. Clippard; Wang vs. Vazquez (advantage Yankees); and, Contreras vs. Moose. Like others, I thought the Yankees would have turned it around with the Clemens' announcement, but they have been 9-16 since.
My feeling is that so goes MO, so go the Yankees. If that downright beautiful pitcher/catcher sequence to Ortiz, Manny, and Propecia Free Grizzly Adams was any indication, I think we may have turned a corner here.
when A-Rod homers off Papelbon he goes, "deep to right and into the bullpen."
PS Alex totally has the "best day" thing down. Remember that?
Let's do everyone a favor.
There's insignifigant difference between Windup-OPS 1999 and Windup-OPS 2000. He just wasn't a good pitcher pitcher during those years. According to ERA+, he was average. Who would have thought that a 4.92 ERA pitcher would be average? Weird.
I think you meant to say that, in 1997, the NL figured out how to hit Nomo with runners on (regular stuff) before they hit off the tornado, and therefore his delivery had something to do with. An increase in year-over-year OPS out of one stance or the other just means the batters are figuring him out. It does not indicate if they are figuring out the delivery or the stuff is in decline. For that you need a comparison between the stances, and for most of his career, it's below the signal-to-noise threshold.
Besides, the orginal argument was that Nomo fell lost success after his adjustment period. That's just not true.
Looks like Croyle could see some action this coming season!
As for 134 I still believe in Abreu. I believe he'll finish this season strong. I'm not sure where Sheff would have played.
I wanted Sheffield gone too. But that was before it became obvious that Giambi's career is over.
And again in 83.
Once again, I have no problem with your opinion that other factors were involved. I acknowledged as much two times (71 and 74 [sic]). If you go over it carefully, I never said you were wrong.
Yes. You sarcastically emphasised noted opinion while yelling. (In the intertubes, caps are yelling.)
With that said, I agree that we should just let the Nomo issue drop.
And let a New Yorker get the last word? Never.
Thin-crust sucks.
Congrats, dude!
whatever.
but don't you ever disrespect thin crust pizza.
not on my watch.
Could he plausibly be onto something?
http://tinyurl.com/2937ol
"So if you're equally good as this Latin player, guess who's going to get sent home? I know a lot of players that are home now can outplay a lot of these guys."
God, I love Gary Sheffield. He never fails to validate my opinion of him.
Wow, that's fairly comical.
Just, wow.
No, Sheffield is not onto something. As Pedro would say, you have one kid at USC and another sitting under a banana tree with a cardboard box as a glove. One signs for $500,000 and one for $10,000. You're the GM, who do you sign? African Americans not in baseball because they don't talk to them like men? Come on Sheffield. When a team is thinking about signing you, you "yes sir, no sir" them to death whether you're black, white, latin, or asian. Its not about respect, its about a chance that very few get, and when you get it, you take advantage of it, you don't make demands. This kind of statement is the worst kind to make, because it perpetuates the idea that someone else is to blame for your problems. It leads wayward kids to believe that they are owed something, that they can talk to employers with attitude, that they are not to blame for anything. This may be true in the private sector to a great degree, but in sports, it most definitely is not. If he really cared he would be funding inner city parks and leagues, mentoring kids, and building parks in Africa to expose kids to the game, and a host of other things. Sheffield has always had a chip on his shoulder the size of Mount Rushmore, but now he is hurting others, and that makes him a bad and selfish person.
(and I love Reggie's arrogance!!!)
As long as underdog is among us, Dodger fans will never have a bad name. And speaking of the quality of names, I must say that 'Vandelay Industries' is our funniest handle. 'Weeping for Brunnhilde' is the most intriguing, needless to say.
And now, onto the White Sox game thread?
Thanks! Very few get where it is from, so I appreciate the comment. I will DVR'ing the game here on the West Coast, but my thoughts will be with you. Go Yankees! Desalvo needs a contract so he can get to the dentist.
;-)
And I always picture Vandelay Industries typing here after running in from the bathroom with his pants around his ankles.
169 I think it must somehow be narcissism rather than racism, though I admit I can't quite figure out how.
To be honest I don't know why there aren't more brothers in baseball. All the reasons given don't really make any sense when analyzed.
But I'd have to say, in light of chances given to players like Toe Nash, Delmon Young, or even currently with Elijah Dukes, I'd have to say Sheffield is a bit off base.
Your opinion isn't informed. You said to look at the examples given. They're bull. Two pitchers that had success early and then less as time went on for many reasons. You point to discussions about nomo's delivery, as if that proves anything. Hitters get use to pitchers, but that is more than just delivery.
Seriously, if you told someone in baseball that kim lost it because hitters got use to his delivery they would laugh at you.
You're a polite debater, and you write constantly, but god do you write some drivel. And what constitutes proof in your mind is more often than not nonsense.
The loudest voice isn't usually the most intelligent.
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