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Winning Series
2007-06-04 00:29
by Cliff Corcoran

Winning series has become the Yankee mantra of late, but coming into Fenway this weekend they'd won just one of their last six. That lone series win came against the Red Sox at Yankee Stadium two weeks ago when the Yanks bookended a loss with a pair of wins. This weekend they pulled the same trick, though it was touch-and-go for a while there in game three.

On Friday night, the Yanks beat the Sox 9-5 in a game that was 9-3 after 3 1/2 innings as the Yankees knocked Tim Wakefield out in the top of the fourth. That game was notable for the fact that five batters were hit by pitches, all seemingly unintentionally, though things got tense when Scott Proctor fired a fastball at Kevin Youkilis's chin in the ninth inning and was promptly tossed out of the game. Joe Torre had been ejected earlier in the game for correctly arguing that Bobby Abreu was safe on a caught stealing at third base, a play that happened right in front of the Yankee dugout.

Saturday afternoon, the Yankees overcame a 3-2 Boston lead with a four-run sixth inning that drove Curt Schilling from the game, but Mike Mussina promptly gave up the lead on solo homers by Mike Lowell and Jason Varitek in the bottom of the inning. After Derek Jeter hit a go-ahead homer off Joel Pineiro in the top of the seventh, things went very, very badly. Before the game it was announced that Proctor would not be suspended for throwing at Youkilis the night before, but the Yankees might have preferred that he was. Entering in the seventh, Proctor gave up a double to David Ortiz. He was then ordered to intentionally walk Manny Ramirez, but followed that by unintentionally walking Kevin Youkilis on four pitches to load the bases. Mike Lowell then hit a double-play ball to short, but Robinson Cano made a poor throw to the bag forcing Derek Jeter to reach for the throw and spin before making the relay to first. Jeter's throw bounced in the dirt and, as Doug Mientkiewicz turned toward the foul line to field it, Minky was struck in the back of the head by Lowell's left thigh as Lowell came through the bag. Lowell would have been safe anyway, but the blow gave Mientkiewicz a concussion and as he lay still face down in the dirt, the balled rolled away and both Ortiz and Ramirez scored to give the Red Sox a lead. As Lowell had moved to second on the play, Joe Torre ordered Proctor to walk Jason Varitek. Wily Mo Peña followed by ripping a ball to short that hit Derek Jeter's glove, but trickled through his legs for a bases-loading error. Coco Crisp followed with an RBI single. Brian Bruney then came on and gave up a sac fly to Julio Lugo and an RBI double to Dustin Pedroia before Mike Myers came on to retire Ortiz and end the inning. The Sox added one more off Luis Vizcaino in the eighth to make the final score 11-6.

As for Mientkiewicz, he was diagnosed with whiplash in addition to the concussion, but it seems he also broke the scaphoid bone in his wrist on the play and will be out six to eight weeks because of that. He was placed on the 15-day DL yesterday though no move was made to fill his roster spot. Meanwhile, Roger Clemens was scratched from his scheduled start tonight due to a balky groin. He hopes to take his next scheduled turn on Saturday against the Pirates, but Matt DeSalvo will be recalled to start tonight. Apparently the injury to Mientkiewicz is what will allow the Yankees to recall DeSalvo after just three days in the minors and why they played with a 24-man roster last night.

Speaking of last night, Andy Pettitte and Josh Beckett locked horns in a pitchers duel for four innings, with the Yankees scoring the only run when a second-inning Jorge Posada double was plated by singles by Hideki Matsui and Josh Phelps. Then Beckett ran into trouble in the fifth, as the Yanks loaded the bases on two singles and a walk to bring Alex Rodriguez to the plate with two outs. Rodriguez chopped a 0-1 pitch to Mike Lowell at third, which Lowell barehanded and bounced in the dirt and off Kevin Youkilis's knee at first base allowing Melky Cabrera and Derek Jeter to score, and Bobby Abreu to move to third. Jorge Posada followed by yanking an RBI single into right to make it 4-0 Yanks.

The Red Sox got right back in the bottom of the inning as Varitek, Peña, and Crisp singled to load the bases. Andy Pettitte reared back and struck out Julio Lugo for the first out, but his strike three pitch triggered back spasms and a Dustin Pedroia double and a David Ortiz single later, the game was tied and Pettitte was hitting the showers. Actually, Ortiz's single was played into a triple (technically a single and a two-base error) by Bobby Abreu as the ball dove at his feet as he was charging it, then hopped over his right shoulder. Luis Vizcano came on to intentionally walk Manny Ramirez, but let Ortiz score the go-ahead run on a sac fly and gave up an ultimately harmless Mike Lowell double before finally ending the inning.

The Red Sox nearly added to their lead against Vizcaino in the sixth when Julio Lugo drew a two-out walk from Vizcaino and Dustin Pedroia double to left, but, despite having David Ortiz on deck, the Sox sent Lugo home. Jorge Posada had to leap to catch the relay throw from Derek Jeter, but when he landed his foot blocked Lugo's from touching the plate and he quickly made the tag for the third out.

The Yankees threatened in the seventh when Josh Beckett walked Johnny Damon to lead off his final inning and Bobby Abreu singled off reliever Javier Lopez to put runners at the corners, but Brendan Donnelly got Alex Rodriguez to pop out and Jorge Posada's well-hit drive to center off Hideki Okajima settled into Coco Crisp's glove.

Okajima was less fortunate in the eighth when Hideki Matsui led off with a single and Robinson Cano absolutely tattooed a ball off the triangle in dead center for a game-tying triple. Unfortunately, the Yankees were unable to get Cano home with the go-ahead run as Josh Phelps struck out, and Cabrera and Damon grounded out.

In the bottom of the inning, Brian Bruney walked Coco Crisp with two outs and Julio Lugo reached on a bounding single in the shortstop hole that lept over the outstretched gloves of both Rodriguez and Jeter. Dustin Pedroia then cracked what looked like yet another double into the right field gap, but Bobby Abreu caught it on a dead run heading for the Boston bullpen to end the inning.

With the game still tied, Ortiz, Ramirez, and Youkilis looming in the bottom of the ninth, and Jonathan Papelbon stomping around on the mound, Derek Jeter grounded out and Bobby Abreu struck out to bring Alex Rodriguez to the plate with two out and none on. Rodriguez swung through a 93-mile-per-hour heater on the inside corner for strike one, fouled off another for strike two, then put a perfect swing on a pitch on the outside corner and sent it sailing into the Boston bullpen for a tie-breaking homer.

That set up what was just Mariano Rivera's second save opportunity in the last month. Mo battled Ortiz for ten pitches, including six straight fouls, throwing pitch after pitch right to Jorge Posada's glove. The tenth pitch just missed however. Jorge called for the ball right under Ortiz's hands and Rivera missed out over the plate and Ortiz crushed it. By then, however, the game was being played in a driving rainstorm and the rain, the wind, and the topspin on the ball conspired to drop Ortiz's drive into Bobby Abreu's glove for the first out. Rivera then struck out Ramirez and, after accidentally hitting Youkilis in the forearm on a check swing, struck out Mile Lowell on a check swing to give the Yankees a 6-5 win in the game and a 3-2 series win.

Comments (173)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-06-04 02:32:11
1.   mainmanmaitland
I'm up watching the rebroadcast of last night's game (I should still be sleeping but obviously I'm an idiot) just to see A-Rod jack that ball out one more time.

Well, if the Yankees are going to try and make a run at .500, become a legitimate factor in the Wild Card race and at least attempt to make up some ground on the Sox in the Division race, this may be their best shot to pick up ground.

The only decent teams the Yanks are going to face in the next few weeks are the Mets and the Diamondbacks. These next few weeks could be fun (but I'll keep my fingers crossed just the same).

2007-06-04 03:03:43
2.   joejoejoe
Nice summary. Sounds like a good ballgame.

It looks like a nasty injury for Mientkiewicz but I'm excited to see Josh Phelps get a few more starts. Does anyone think the Yanks will consider working out Damon at 1B? I think that is a good fit for the roster and the needs of the team at the moment.

2007-06-04 03:04:12
3.   joejoejoe
Nice summary. Sounds like a good ballgame.

It looks like a nasty injury for Mientkiewicz but I'm excited to see Josh Phelps get a few more starts. Does anyone think the Yanks will consider working out Damon at 1B? I think that is a good fit for the roster and the needs of the team at the moment.

2007-06-04 03:47:36
4.   The Mick 536
Not encouraged at all by the win. Sorry. No starting pitching. Questionable defense. Overworked bullpen. Intermittent hitting. And a lack of class.

Johnny Damon never played first base. Just cannot believe that he will be able to make the throws, yet alone guard the line. He can barely throw to second from short center. I remember the Mantles playing first. Painful. They need more than a body there.

Left the game for the "penultimate" Soprano's and bed. Damn.

2007-06-04 05:04:47
5.   Cliff Corcoran
Damon was seen working out at 1B with Mattingly before yesterday's game and I fully expect him to see some starts there before Mientkiewicz returns. In fact, we may not see Damon start in the OF for a couple of months given the room that now exists at DH and 1B, and that may be a good thing for his overall health, and thus his bat.
2007-06-04 05:09:39
6.   williamnyy23
4 Left a Yankees-Red Sox game for the Sopranos? That's not every encouraging either.
2007-06-04 05:15:55
7.   williamnyy23
5 It's a worthwhile experiment, but not everyone can learn to play 1B. If Damon can't play the position better than Phelps, it really isn't that much of an asset. Damon's offense plays well in CF, but as a full-time 1B, it would leave something to be desired. His numbers the last three seasons with speed are probably fine for the DH slot, but if you start adding in poor defense at 1B to his contribution, well, that seriously lessens his value.

Also, Damon is still a good outfielder. Whether it's the sexy calves or not, he just no longer has the range for center. Why not move him over to left and make Matsui the DH? I'm sure Damon could cover ALOT more ground in the spacious YS left field. Also, it's not like Matsui has a great arm, so Damon's noodle in Left wouldn't be much of a downgrade.

2007-06-04 05:17:36
8.   rbj
4"no starting pitching"

Pettitte was good up until back spasms.

I'll take any win as encouragment.

"Lack of class"
WTF?

2007-06-04 05:24:26
9.   3rd gen yankee fan
Props to Cano for not looking like complete garbage at the plate, and for taking a walk too!

I'm getting encouraged about how we're starting to hit Okajima. He doesn't look so scary anymore.

2007-06-04 05:42:58
10.   williamnyy23
9 Okajima seems to be, at least in part, a product of his very strange motion and delivery. Over time, novelty effects such as those wear off. The Yankees have seen him alot, so they seem to have adjusted more quickly than the rest of the league. I'm sure other teams will make the adjustment as well. Okajima could very well still settle into a very nice bullpen career, but I don't think he will remain lights out for very much longer.
2007-06-04 05:44:32
11.   mainmanmaitland
I'm encouraged by the fact that the Yanks have taken the last two series from the Sox. I know the Sox have the better record and at this point in time look like a lock for the division but I'm not counting the Yanks out of the postseason.

There is 2/3rds of the season left. The team has played like the pu-pu platter for a lot of of the season so far but last I heard the season isn't over yet.

It is early June and the Sox are not invulnerable. Their starting pitching is good but not bullet proof. We've managed to hit all of their best starters hard. At this point we are more afraid of their relievers than their starters.

People talk about the fact that there are something like seven teams between the Yanks and the playoffs. Those teams include the Blue Jays and the O's. Those teams have one and two game leads on us. We have time to make up some ground.

I know it is all a big IF but I don't look at the other teams in the AL and quake in my boots. A good run into the All Star Break(and this team, despite how it has looked could do that)would at least have us looking respectable.

(Sorry for the long post)

2007-06-04 05:45:10
12.   williamnyy23
What a night for Arod by the way. For most of the night, he has an elite Hall of Fame player defending him (as much I dislike Morgan's analysis, I think he is a much more credible source of what is and isn't appropriate on the diamond then say someone like Matt Stairs or John Gibbons) in front of a nation TV audience, and then he hits a game winning laser beam off one of the game's best relievers. I'd have to think that was a very satisfying night for Arod.
2007-06-04 05:48:04
13.   RIYank
7. 12 williamnyy23 en fuego! Two great points. Still, at this stage getting Damon some starts at 1B could add a little flexibility. And you're right, we do have to give Morgan credit for his assets since we give him such sheit for his glaring weaknesses.
2007-06-04 05:49:06
14.   vockins
I find the Damon at first option absolutely goofy. Play Phelps. If he's not going to play first, he has no value and needs to get DFA'd.
2007-06-04 05:50:49
15.   RIYank
The holes in the Yankees are pretty obvious. But they somehow don't look as bad to me as they seem to look to the baseball punditry. Maybe that's because I'm thinking about the up-side; the worse or worst-case scenarios are pretty horrible.
One thing that does bother me now (hat tip to Jim Dean) is our bench, which is, well, non-existent. There was absolutely nobody available to pinch hit yesterday. Let's call up a Duncan from Scranton, please.
2007-06-04 05:54:23
16.   TokyoTom
4.
Not encouraged at all by the win. Sorry. No starting pitching. Questionable defense. Overworked bullpen. Intermittent hitting. And a lack of class.

Sounds like you are describing the Red Sox last night. And leaving that game for the Sopranos definitely indicates a lack of class.

2007-06-04 05:58:13
17.   TokyoTom
Morgan waffles a lot, but the boys at FJM need to get a life.

Anyway, his take on the "Ha" play was dead on. I wonder why nobody mentions this: what's more "Bush League" that dropping an easy pop up because somebody yelled something. That's the ultimate Bush League play. And crying about it is even worse.

2007-06-04 05:59:49
18.   mainmanmaitland
The funny thing is that the injuries might help us the the short term. Letting Melky play the bulk of the time in center and have the other three outfielders rotate in and out of the DH slot maybe for the best.

Getting Phelps more playing time might be nice in the long term (especially offensively and since he is a righty he keeps the line-up from being too left oriented)

Having Minky and Giambi out will force the team to change the makeup of the bench and perhaps Bench Mk II will be better. Here's hoping anyway.

2007-06-04 06:04:07
19.   Shaun P
What a win last night! I went to bed when it was 5-4, and so missed all the drama, but somehow I knew the Yanks would win.

Rumor on Boston radio this morning has Abreu being sent to the ChiSox for Jermaine Dye. I don't know how credible it is. Sounds like the old 'challenge trade'.

The bench is thin now, huh? I bet Cashman is already looking for 'free talent' help. Too bad only the '07 version of Craig Wilson is available; the '04 version would be very useful. =)

2007-06-04 06:06:09
20.   RIYank
19 I was listening to WEEI this morning (it was shockingly listenable, first time in my memory) and didn't hear that.
2007-06-04 06:08:46
21.   williamnyy23
19 I think Dye's 2006 was a bit of a fluke, so I'd likely stay away from that. The Yankees need Abreu to return to being an OBP machine. He has shown signs, so I wouldn't cut bait now. Also, there is no way the Sox would add Abreu and take on the extra pro-rated $10mn.
2007-06-04 06:09:37
22.   RIYank
Speaking of peculiar trade rumors, check this one out (via FJM):

"Given the growing desperation of the two teams, is it out of the question Sox general manager Ken Williams would package Joe Crede and Mark Buehrle to the Yankees for Rodriguez, outfielder Melky Cabrera and a live arm or two?"

Tribune, http://tinyurl.com/yr3aur

You can either imagine Ken Tremendous' response, or go look (it's unsurprising).

2007-06-04 06:10:53
23.   TokyoTom
18.
Torre went so far as hint at the silver lining inside Minky injury cloud, as well. What they lose in defense, they gain in flexibility.
2007-06-04 06:11:31
24.   Simone
I loved that Bobby A. got to redeem his earlier error with that great running catch. Jorgie's catch and blocking the plate was a spectacular play. Alex's home run and Mo closing the door were heart stopping events. This is what makes baseball so much fun. All the emotions in that game last night were amazing: drama, the heartbreak and joy. Great game. I'm glad that the Yankees got the win.
2007-06-04 06:19:44
25.   RIYank
24 And how about Ortiz' long fly for heart-stopping? I guess that could be under "Mo closing", but that was great baseball, I loved that.
2007-06-04 06:22:19
26.   Yankee Fan In Boston
24 you beat me to it. jorge's tag at the plate was spectacular. the season that guy is having...

i was at the game on friday night. the crowd was giving it to rodriguez from the warm ups on through the game. during warm ups (there was a tarp over the field, so they didn't take BP) i was right next to the fellas (about 6 feet fron donald arthur mattingly) and rodriguez seemed oblivious to everything. the tabloids, the razzing... he was just crakcking jokes and singing songs. i knew then that he'd be fine.

it must have been so difficult not to blow kisses to the fenway faithful after rounding the bases last night.

i can't imagine how nice that must've felt.

2007-06-04 06:33:17
27.   Shaun P
20 Its third hand to me - a guy I work with said he heard it from his brother-in-law, who allegedly heard it over the radio. I think he (the bro-in-law) lives in Central/Western MA, so maybe he wasn't listening to 'EEI?

21 Those are all excellent points. That said, Dye is a very good fielder (career 103 RATE in RF, 109 this year) and is cheaper than Bobby, which would be useful for the Yanks. Of course the Sox wouldn't like the money hit, but they do need someone who gets on base with some kind of frequency.

I could see it happening. I'm not saying I'm for it, or against it, but its not crazy, like that Phil Rogers creation 22.

2007-06-04 06:34:09
28.   Shaun P
24 BTW Simone, keep on keepin' on with your optimism - it was a wonderful thing to read in the game thread last night.
2007-06-04 06:39:19
29.   monkeypants
14 Damno/1B is not absolutely goofy...depending on how such a creature is deployed. When the season started, the Yankees employed three players to cover two spots (1B/DH) who each had zero flexibility. Tying up those spots in adition to 11 or 12 pitchers means very little bench/roster and thus tactical flexibility. Trying out Damon at 1B is fine so long as he is viewed as the back-up 1B (with Phelps getting the starting nod unless another player is acquired). If Damon can play a little 1B, the Yankees have just created a whole lot more roster flexibility because they will not need to bring in another one-dimensional player as the secong 1B.

The rub is whether Torre will properly employ the personnel. If he uses Damon exclusivelyt at 1B, then the experiment will be a failure (Damon's bat will not justify him at 1B). If, on the other hand, he uses 1B, DH, and OF as a way to both rest Damon and keep him in the lineup, then it might work OK. Also, using Damon at 1B means less Cairo, which can only be a good thing.

2007-06-04 06:40:04
30.   AbbyNormal821
19 I hit the hay w/the game at 5-4 too. How freakin' happy was I when I check the scores this morning to see that they won...and on a HR by A-Rod. Now THAT is sweet!

Does anyone feel physically ill sometimes while watching these to teams play? Hmmm...no? Just me? Ah, the cheese stands alone!

2007-06-04 06:40:46
31.   AbbyNormal821
...ahem, I meant "these TWO teams"...

I can't believe I misspelled THAT word!

2007-06-04 06:49:39
32.   joe in boston
Great summary Cliff, great game.

Living up here as a Yankee fan is getting harder and harder. But wins like last nights really help. I keep thinking "wild card" - "wild card" ..... and trying not to focus on the injuries the Yanks have suffered. Many "I hope" sentences ....

I hope Roger comes back really strong.

I hope Jeter/Arod/Posada continue to carry the team

I hope the starting pitching continues to hang in there.

I hope Bobby A comes back around

I hope the Sox can go on a big 4 wins out of, say, 15 games losing streak.

WEEI and it's "Idiots" constantly bash the Yanks. It is truly annoying

2007-06-04 07:00:13
33.   Jim Dean
Daily News back cover?

Ha!

2007-06-04 07:04:18
34.   Yankee Fan In Boston
32 hang in there, joe. keep your dial away from WEEI at all costs. the sox fans have been exceptionally vocal this year, to me anyway. whatever. it is almost cute when they get all excited...

let's see if the sox can win 9 straight division titles, shall we?

2007-06-04 07:07:56
35.   JL25and3
12 I liked what Morgan said. I didn't like that they spent about four innings talking, and talking, and talking about it. I also didn't like his insistence that wins and losses are the best way to judge a pitcher.

I finally figured out one of the biggest differences between Miller on radio (where he's great) and on TV (where he's awful). On radio he's got a relaxed, conversational, Scully-esque style where nothing's forced. On TV, all of his observations have exclamation points! Julio Lugo is batting .226! But he has 33 runs batted in! From the leadoff spot!

2007-06-04 07:15:16
36.   TokyoTom
30. My emotions ranged between sick, guilty (for blowing off half a day of work, as the game started at 9AM out here), elated, excited, anxious and overjoyed. Better than Disneyland. A-Rod could not have scripted it any better. What a finish to a wild weekend for him!
2007-06-04 07:17:39
37.   TokyoTom
Sorry, I'm new. I meant to do this 30 above.
2007-06-04 07:17:58
38.   RIYank
Ah, so you actually are TokyoTom.
(By the way, if you put the posting number in square brackets you get the linked reference.) [postnumber], like that.
2007-06-04 07:18:46
39.   RIYank
Hey, you beat me to it, nice job.
2007-06-04 07:20:38
40.   TokyoTom
39 Thanks a lot for the tip. I guess I should have read the "Help" section earlier.
2007-06-04 07:26:17
41.   TokyoTom
38 It's difficult watching the games guilt free out here. You kind of have to make excuses to be in front of the tube on work day mornings. Making coffee. Eating breakfast. Reading the paper. It's the Red Sox. Its the Mets. Etc. Anyway, those are the things I say to my wife. Luckily, I have my own business.
2007-06-04 07:27:38
42.   Shaun P
36 Welcome TokyoTom - do you know Mike Plugh?

Speaking of mike - it was great to see him pop in on a thread last night, and I hope he hasn't given up on these guys yet!

Scary stat, for those who think the Yanks still "rely" on the home run.

Here are the Yanks who have more than 9 home runs, and their season totals:

A-Rod, 20

(Giambi and Posada are tied for second with 7. Matsui is the only other guy with 5 or more; he has 5 exactly.)

Here are the Yanks who are slugging over .450:

A-Rod, .639
Posada, .582
Jeter, .461
Matsui, .458

I hope Cano and Melky keep waking up. I really hope Matsui finds his missing power. And I really, really hope Phelps starts mashing the cover off the ball.

2007-06-04 07:30:23
43.   TokyoTom
42 Thanks, Shaun P. Sorry, I don't know Mike Plugh.
2007-06-04 07:34:06
44.   TokyoTom
42 They are clearly missing Shef's and Damon's dingers (compared to last year). And Matsui missed, what, the first 3 weeks or so. He usually starts hot.
2007-06-04 07:47:08
45.   Bama Yankee
Welcome TokyoTom. Do you know Karim Garcia?
;-)
2007-06-04 07:48:41
46.   bbfan1
"williamnyy23: 9 Okajima seems to be, at least in part, a product of his very strange motion and delivery. Over time, novelty effects such as those wear off."

No it doesn't. Can you give me one example of a guy with success that lost it because hitters got use to his delivery? It doesn't happen. What makes the delivery works is that it hides the ball and makes it more difficult to pick up. That doesn't change. Will he get hit? You bet. No one's as good as he looked earlier, but he still looks like a solid reliever.

"Simone: I loved that Bobby A. got to redeem his earlier error with that great running catch. Jorgie's catch and blocking the plate was a spectacular play."

No it wasn't. He came down and Lugo ran into his foot. A foot doesn't block the plate. That was a terrible slide by lugo.

2007-06-04 07:52:54
47.   joe in boston
[34} thanks man, it's lonely up here lately. As I told a fellow teacher, "wait until the fall, the big brother always beats up on the little brother" this year it might take a little time.

WEEI is truly YahooRadio by the way.

They have a great Sat morning show however - some great Yankee callers....

2007-06-04 07:57:28
48.   RIYank
46 Byung-Hyun Kim?
47 Me too, but I'm reveling in it at the moment. (Not WEEI, just being in the middle of a cocky RSN. They aren't good at it.)
2007-06-04 08:07:54
49.   unpopster
46 Hideo Nomo.
2007-06-04 08:20:53
50.   williamnyy23
46 See 48 and 49 for good examples.

One more note on Okajima...he is currently on pace for 74 IP. That isn't a ridiculous amount for a reliver, but Okajima hasn't thrown that many since 1997. Since then, his rounded yearly totals have been...62, 69, 72, 62, 56, 39, 47, 53 and 55.

In other words, if Francona keeps using him at the same pace, he could be Proctorized by the time the Sox need him most.

Finally, taking the point above one step further, it seems as if ALL the Red Sox pitchers have been throwing more innings/pitches than you'd expect. With such a big lead, I wonder if Francona will ease off, and if not, will it come back to haunt him in October?

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-06-04 08:22:13
51.   rockymtnyankee
1. Great win last night.....Love Jorge's play in the field and his hitting.....BP did a good job for a change.

2. With exactly 1/3 of the season done, we are 6 games behind the Tigers in the loss column for the Wild Card....and that is the encouraging news! What really worries me is that the AL Wild Card Team has averaged 95 wins since 1996.....closer to 96 wins if one discounts Baltimore's 88 wins in 1996, the only year the Wild Card Team had less than 91 wins. To get to 95 wins, the Yankees will have to go 71-37 (.657+) the rest of the season......that translates to 106/107 wins in a 162-game season. Does anyone really think this Yankee Team, with its pitching, defense, injuries, and age, can play like the '61 Yankees (109 wins) for 2/3 of a season??! Even achieving the historical low of 88 wins would require the Yankees to go 20 games over .500 and play .592+ baseball. There is just no more margin for mistakes, slumps, injuries, bad luck, etc., for the remaining 108 games. Let's hope the Tigers, Indians, Twins, ChiSox, Angels, A's, etc., either play below their potential or badly or beat each other up enough so that the Wild Card does not require many wins. Otherwise, the Captain will be home in October for the first time in his career.....and the Yankee-haters will rejoice. One wonders what would happen then in the off-season regarding AROD, other players, Torre, coaches, etc. About the only "untouchable" would be Bob Sheppard!!......and then the Captain.

3. PS - What about Matsui at 1B?

2007-06-04 08:30:01
52.   Shaun P
46 48 49 Japanese reliever with funky delivery, dominates at first but then loses it when the league catches up to him?

How about Shingo Takatsu.

2004:
Age IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA
34 62.3 40 17 16 6 21 50 2.31

2005:
Age IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA
35 28.7 30 19 19 9 16 32 5.97

The ChiSox released him on August 1; desperate for help, the Mets signed him. He pitched all of 7.7 innings for the Mets (not badly), but they let him go at year's end.

Takatsu then went back to Japan.

I think Okajima is a better pitcher than Takatsu was. But to say "a guy with success that lost it because hitters got use to his delivery . . . doesn't happen" is foolish. Baseball history teaches that very rarely do we ever see something that's never happened before.

2007-06-04 08:39:53
53.   weeping for brunnhilde
Dye?

Is he a DH these days, or does he play the outfield?

And if so, is he any good?

I'd really like to have a defensively sound team, if possible, which is why I'll personally really, really miss Mientkiewicz.

Man, what a game. And then I actually dreamed that the Yanks won the WS. It was very emotional, and I was all teary.

2007-06-04 08:44:02
54.   capdodger
49 Nomo's second best year (ERA wise) was his antipenultimate (2003). If a 3.09 ERA and 130 ERA+ are "the league catching up with you" then I suspect most pitchers hope the leauge does just that. His strikeouts fell off after the first couple of years, but he was an average to above average pitcher during his healthy years.
2007-06-04 08:44:12
55.   weeping for brunnhilde
51 71-37, eh?

Tall order, that, I must confess.

Remember that 20-game streak by Oakland a few years ago?

That was unreal.

2007-06-04 08:46:21
56.   JL25and3
I was really surprised at what a bad series Jeter had, at bat as well as in the field. He must have forgotten to bring along his magic Ring of Clutchitudeness.
2007-06-04 08:47:26
57.   weeping for brunnhilde
54 I think William's point was that Okajima can still be effective, just not dominant because of the league catching up to his delivery.

He wasn't saying that his delivery is his whole game and that once it's cracked, he'll be defenseless, only that the delivery thus far has allowed him to be better than his stuff.

2007-06-04 08:49:17
58.   RIYank
56 A-Rod stole the ring! Now David X must journey to New York and get it back before the forces of darkeness close in.
2007-06-04 08:49:44
59.   weeping for brunnhilde
56 Yeah, he did have a poor series, especially in the field, but he did make that spectacular play ranging far to his left and he did hit the ball very hard to Youklis, who made a very, very fine play.

So even a bad series from him is still not hopeless.

But he has cooled down, it's true.

2007-06-04 08:50:05
60.   williamnyy23
51 I don't think the AL has been as well balanced in the past as it has this season. What I think that means is the WC is likely to have fewer wins (i.e., no more fattening up on the dregs to the same degree). Forget about how many wins it will take...the key number is 6 games in the loss column. Personally, I feel as if the Tigers (assuming Cleveland wins the division) are the only team capable of keeping the Yankees at bay EVEN IF the team starts playing better. After all, if the Yankees don't play better, its a moot point anyway.
2007-06-04 08:52:40
61.   RIYank
60 I agree, I'll be surprised if the wild card winner wins 95 games this year. But it's not quite true that the key number is 6 in the loss column. The Twins or Jays or even a western team could get red hot, so we could catch Detroit and still fail to make the playoffs.
2007-06-04 08:53:55
62.   williamnyy23
51 Also, you have to keep in mind that the Yankees winning the division frequently forced a better team into the wild card. If you assume the AL East Wild Cards were division winners and add 1 win to the next best team, the average number of wins for WC winners since 1996 would have been 92. Reaching 92 wins would knock the needed WPCT down to .627, which seems a lot more manageable.
2007-06-04 08:58:33
63.   williamnyy23
54 Nomo's ERA+ through the years: 150, 120, 91, 83, 101, 101, 101, 112, 130, 50, 60. I think it's fair to conclude that the 130+ in 2003 was more of an outlier on a career path that began with dominance and petered out toward mediocre.
2007-06-04 08:59:02
64.   Shawn Clap
56 Yeah, like when he hit the late-inning homer to break the tie on Saturday. Jeter totally sucks.
2007-06-04 09:01:51
65.   williamnyy23
61 If the Jays can win the Wild Card with the mess of injuries they sustained, then I will root VERY HARD for them to win the World Series (even if they are a bunch of babies).

Sure...another team could get hot, which makes the WC somewhat more risky, but I just think the Yankees are clearly [or should be] better than everyone else, but Detroit.

2007-06-04 09:03:31
66.   capdodger
57 I'm just countering the propositon in 50 that Nomo was someone who lost effectiveness because of his motion becoming familiar. Nomos' bad years were due to injury and the resulting, or sometimes unrelated, loss of velocity on his fastball. Once batters could wait on the fastball, they could avoid swinging over the top of splitter.

In any case, I think the "unconventional delivery" point is moot for Okajima. He's just not that weird. Sure, he might hide the ball longer than some, but that doesn't throw off batters in the same manner a funky, halting delivery might. In the latter, the batter ends up looking in the wrong place, whereas in the former, the batter has nothing to look at, because the ball just ain't there. Plus, he's a relief pitcher so he'll face individual batters, what, ten times a season? I'm not saying that's not enough time for adjustments, but it's hardly fair to compare that to someone who averaged 210 innings a year for ten years.

2007-06-04 09:03:48
67.   weeping for brunnhilde
64 Yes, there was that homerun, but (in my mind) it was overshadowed by his poor defense.

I think it's fair to say that he had a poor game.

2007-06-04 09:13:05
68.   capdodger
63 Sure it was an outlier. The Dodgers' defense was amazing that year. It probably helped the entire staff.

That said, it's entirely beside the point. He was an average to above average pitcher even after he'd been around a few times and even after his fastball lost the abillity to set up his splitter. As for the year after that, he was 35 and injured, but wouldn't say so, and was throwing 83 MPH "heat". His brilliant manager, Jim Tracy, kept running him out every fifth day.

2007-06-04 09:14:53
69.   JL25and3
64 I never said he sucked, and would never say that. The solo home run was good. But he came up a lot of times with men on base and did nothing - less than nothing, if you count his 3 DPs. It doesn't make him a lousy player, he just had a lousy series.
2007-06-04 09:20:43
70.   weeping for brunnhilde
Wow, the Baseball Bunch!!

This is the show I've mentioned a couple times, a main reason (along with little league) that I'm so obsessed with fundamentals!

Anyone remember this?

I think it's the show with the Baseball Wizard, Tommy Lasorda, right?

It's the show that taught me those "three little words, 'I got it.'"

And then they played clips of collisions to illustrate the importance of calling for the ball!

Maybe these kids today are fundamentally unsound because they never had such shows, because they grew up in the age of musclebound sluggers like Brady Anderson.

:)

Anyway, they don't make 'em like this anymore, sadly.

http://www.gaslampball.com/story/2007/6/3/84038/99670

2007-06-04 09:28:54
71.   williamnyy23
68 I don't think it is besides the point. Since he debuted, Nomo's "tornado" delivery was widely attributed as being a source of his success. Other factors may have led to his hasty decline, but I think familiarity is as much a good candidate as any.
2007-06-04 09:29:44
72.   OldYanksFan
7 I would agree if your were comparing JD to Minky, our maybe even Jason who is very good at scoops. That would be a major D downgrade. But compared to Phelps? (who looks well below average at 1st). Basically, if JD is 'somewhat competant', the downgrade compared to Phelps should be minimal. I also think JD will 'throw himself' at this challenge, as it will he prolong and improve the rest of his career.

And it's not just JD's range that has suffered. His routes to balls and his overall comfort in CF certainly isn't was it was a few years ago. He has been deteriorating for a while. Even Sox fans, BEFORE he left the team, admitted that.

12 Also.. the shot ARod hit was on a low, outside pitch. It was a laser, line drive. I've seen him hit high, booming shots to RF, but for a line drive to go out in Fenway RF is very impressive.

19 WHY would the White Sox do that?

24 Not to be a bubble burster, but watch Posada's play again. He jumped up to catch the throw, which was high and left. When he came down, his right footed landed exactly in front of the runner's foot, and the runner what actually deflected away from the plate. When Posada applied the tag after the slide, I don't think he had any idea what happened, and just did a perfunctory tag. To me, it was luck, or better yet, the RCNB.

46 Actually, Jason Stark did a very good article and 'Japanese' Pitchers, although I don't think Stark is usually very deep. To summerize, he found that the best Japanese pitchers often had 2 good years, and then feel of a cliff. He mentioned delivery, but also that Japanese pitchers realy more on quality 'junk' (good movement) and offspeed pitches. MLB players like fastballs. One batters accept they are getting 'junk' and llok for it, they become more effective.

Hideo Nomo (First 4 years and career)
2.54, 3.19, 4.25, 5.05 .... 4.21

Kazuhisa Ishii
4.27, 3.86, 4.71, 5.14 .... 4.44

Tomo Ohka doesn't fit the pattern, but his first full years was at 3.12, compared to 4.10 career

Hideki Irabu
7.09 (only 53IP), 4.06, 4.84.... 5.15 career

I can't think of more Japanese SPs. But I do believe that they are usually much better their first 2 years then their eventually carrer.

Of course, age league and others factors apply.

2007-06-04 09:31:28
73.   weeping for brunnhilde
Oh my God, this is one of the funniest things I've ever seen:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kl-4FSRYagc&mode=related&search=

Good old Earl.

Those were the days.

2007-06-04 09:32:39
74.   capdodger
68 Widely attributed, but incorrectly so. His great success was because his splitter looked like his fastball out of his hand. He was slow to the plate, but didn't tornado out of the strech.

The dropoff in his third year was because he'd already thrown abou 2,000 professional innnings at that point and his arm (and fastball) was dead.

2007-06-04 09:34:00
75.   capdodger
72 Kaz Ishii? There's a name I don't want to remember. He'd pitch with his eyes closed, and it showed.
2007-06-04 09:43:41
76.   RIYank
72

Damon: I'm not convinced that his range has dropped off all that much. I expect it to decline, of course, but I just looked at his Range Factors and I don't see a clear decline. (It's not a very good statistic, though, so maybe you can find a clear decline.)

ChiSox trade: Guillen likes Abreu a lot.

2007-06-04 09:44:26
77.   Zack
What everyone is leaving out of this Okajima debate is that we aren't talking about a shut down pitcher to begin with here. We are talking about a guy whose era's were consistantly in the high 3s-4s in a worse hitting league. Last year he had a good season, somewhat out of his career averages. he also gave up 10 HRs last year in just 54 IP in a league with much less power.

My point being that there is every indication that Okajima's career tendencies will catch up to him once people see him more, delivery or no...

2007-06-04 09:46:31
78.   williamnyy23
74 Your OPINION is noted, although I don't agree with it fully.
2007-06-04 09:47:46
79.   williamnyy23
76 They are both from Venezuela, although they couldn't have more different personalities.
2007-06-04 09:50:44
80.   RIYank
79 I think they're old friends.
2007-06-04 09:51:17
81.   capdodger
78 There's a google search bar on the side. If you use it, I'm sure you'll find plenty of DT posts and comments running along the same lines.
2007-06-04 09:55:43
82.   williamnyy23
81 If you type in "Nomo and deceptive delivery" into that google search bar you'll come up with articles/websites saying the opposite. My point is that unless you can point to something conclusive beyond your own opinion (or other DT posters'), I still maintain MY OPINION that Nomo's early success was partly attributable to the novelty of his delivery.
2007-06-04 09:56:54
83.   capdodger
82 His delivery out of the strech wasn't novel.
2007-06-04 09:58:19
84.   williamnyy23
81 Here's a passage from he link below:

The 1.85-meter hurler uses a unique style of pitching also known as the "tornado." It begins with him throwing his hands far behind his head -- ball hidden from the batter -- before coming around for the release. The speed of the delivery: 150 kph. "It's very effective," Dodger manager Tommy Lasorda told Asiaweek. "It's difficult for batters to pick up the ball. It's deceptive." Agrees pitching coach Dave Wallace: "When you combine the stuff that he has and the aptitude and the competitiveness of this young man, it's just a wonderful package." Rivals are also impressed. "Everything he does makes you look real ugly," says Al Martin, a fielder for the Pittsburgh Pirates, recently beaten by the Dodgers.

http://tinyurl.com/2fpmfj

2007-06-04 10:05:09
85.   capdodger
That's his fucking windup. Yes. He tornadoed from the goddamn windup. I never said he didn't you motherfucking dink. He did not however do that from the god damn strech, because if he did it would have been a motherfucking balk. You can look at his fucking stats and see that he was having problems adjusting his strech delivery (ie, he was pausing, which, I guess, is more tightly called here). He balked something like 8 times in his first 3 years and none in his last couple.

And You're Quoting Tommy Lasorda to me? Dude's a fucking tool.

2007-06-04 10:12:42
86.   capdodger
85 It was 11 balks in his first three and none in his last five.
2007-06-04 10:18:23
87.   Yankee Fan In Boston
85 i am afraid to ask what you think of dave wallace or al martin.
2007-06-04 10:21:26
88.   capdodger
87 Couldn't care less, though it is interesting that the pitching coach Wallace does allude to Nomo's "stuff" but not to his delivery. Could be a selective quote. It's just that Lasorda embodies the "falling up" mentality of the old-boys clique that is so much of baseball.

And he forced trades of Pedro and Konerko.

2007-06-04 10:25:48
89.   JL25and3
Anyone remember how we contact Ken?
2007-06-04 10:29:56
90.   capdodger
Anyway... Sorry about the thread hijack. I've said my bit on Nomo, his delivery, and his splitter.
2007-06-04 10:35:28
91.   Jim Dean
85 Why don't you calm down? You're visiting us here, and all I know is when people visit my house the easiest way for them to get bounced is to shit all over the place. Some of that language is compltely unnecessary. Either you have an argument based on facts or you have nothing to say.
2007-06-04 10:38:04
92.   JL25and3
85 The language, and the personal insults. Rude and completely uncalled for.
2007-06-04 10:41:45
93.   capdodger
91 I know. I'm just kinda like the guy Will Ferrel plays in Austin Powers 2.
2007-06-04 10:42:19
94.   williamnyy23
85 Interesting debating skills...aside from offering no facts to support your view point, I'm glad to see you have the maturity and intelligence to handle a disagreement. Please return to Dodger Thoughts, although I am not sure they'd want you back.
2007-06-04 10:44:42
95.   Schteeve
How great is Posada this year. That block of home plate, his hot hitting, the way he handled Mo last night? That guy is the team MVP so far, right?
2007-06-04 10:47:56
96.   williamnyy23
85 And by the way, Nomo faced 483 PAs with no men on base in 1995. His OPS against in those situations was .543. Over his career, that number jumped to .724. I guess if you want to discount a huge portion of the innings he pitched and ignore some facts, you might have a point.
2007-06-04 10:50:05
97.   capdodger
I offered facts. That you choose not to see them as such is no skin off my nose. That I exploded when you didn't, is. Sorry about that.
2007-06-04 10:54:07
98.   rockymtnyankee
60, 61, 62, 65 - Good points all. I agree that the Tigers are the biggest threat, if the Tribe keeps it up. And, for what it is worth, I heard Buster Olney on ESPN this AM quote "scouts" that Detroit reminds them of the 1996-2000 Yankee teams (in attitude, teamwork, resilience, grit, style of play, etc).

It would be nice if the Tribe reverts to its under-achieving 2006 form, and none of the other teams get hot. A lot of things have to break our way for us to get our total wins in the low 90s and win the WC. I hope we have maxed out our season quota of injuries, bad ump calls, bad luck, slumps, etc.

How confident are the bantors in DeSalvo tonight against the stuggliong ChiSox? Garland was very tough on us the last time, but he is 2-5, 3.42 ERA, 1.34 WHIP vs. the Yankees lifetime.

2007-06-04 10:55:55
99.   capdodger
85 Yes, I do want to discount many of his deadarm years (2005, 2006, 1998, 199). He just wasn't the same pitcher then because of the wear on his arm, not because of his delivery. Google "Nomo Dead Arm" and you'll see papers from Milwaukee complaining about just that.
2007-06-04 10:57:05
100.   JL25and3
95 He's towering so far above everyone else, he looks like Babe Ruth on the St. Mary's Industrial School team.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-06-04 11:00:52
101.   rockymtnyankee
95. Jorge definitely is the MVP to date.

Enjoyed seeing Sweet Lou's tirade on Saturday......hope he doesn't get suspended for too long.

But even Lou must take a back seat to that tirade by that minor league manager, Phil Wellman. The low crawl and tossing of the rosin bag as a grenade from behind the mound - What an original touch! Do you think he will get 10 games suspension?

2007-06-04 11:04:57
102.   Jim Dean
93 All we ask is that you treat people with respect - in language and in tone. If that's difficult because of your personality or whatnot, I'm sure Ken will have no problem suspending your account.
2007-06-04 11:06:51
103.   capdodger
102 Sure. See 97. But you do know what 93 was referring to, don't you?
2007-06-04 11:25:39
104.   Chyll Will
Man, what a game last night. I'll let you guys in on something, all the commentary last night was captivating! I wasn't watching the game on TV or listening on the radio or stupid GameDay, I was watching through Banter, and yo it was off the meatrack! I'm glad to be with you all, through thick and (very) thin... okay, I fell asleep right after we confirmed Mo did his thing, but you get the point, I held on for dear life and I'm glad I did. You guys are the best, all of you.

Yunnow what I think the emotional turning point was? Mike Plugh coming in and blasting this team. He was spot on and I dunno, probably through some cyberspace karma or something, his words touched a nerve somewhere and this team started fighting, culminating with A-Rod's karmic orgasm and Mo rubbing Lowell's nose in it. Well, this is gonna be a good week no matter what! (no, I'm not high or anything, I'm feeling rejuvenated right when I needed to, or maybe it's cognative disonnance from working 60+ hours in a cubicle two weeks in a row...)

Whatever. I love it when the planets come together >;)

2007-06-04 11:27:15
105.   RIYank
Karmic orgasm.
Karma sutra.
Who is Karma Garcia?
2007-06-04 11:32:00
106.   Andre
Not to condone capdodger's language or attitude, but Williamnyy23, you sure do have a knack for pissing people off on this board ; )
2007-06-04 11:35:56
107.   williamnyy23
106 It's usually under similar circumstances...it's a shame that some people can't handle someone else having an informed opinion and demanding evidence before being persuaded. I guess if you have nothing to offer, no one will get offended? I've also observed that when a less rational person is presented with a compelling argument they can't refute, they tend to get pissed off.
2007-06-04 11:39:16
108.   Yankee Fan In Boston
107 go to hell.
2007-06-04 11:39:32
109.   Yankee Fan In Boston
108 kidding, of course.
2007-06-04 11:44:28
110.   Bama Yankee
104 Ouch, that cognative disonance sounds painful... ;-)

105 LOL. Good one, RIYank.

2007-06-04 11:53:25
111.   Raf
101 Personally I thought it was horses--t behavior from two grown men who really should know better.

The Piniella act, especially, has grown quite old.

2007-06-04 11:53:58
112.   Jim Dean
107 As one also well-versed in the pissing people off department, I think it cuts both ways. The cognitive dissonance comes with people thinking you're either wrong or there must be something wrong with you. So when a good argument can't be refuted they respond with ad hominen.

But there's also something to be said for simply letting it go. I've realized it's also very difficult to convince people of things in a forum such as this (or ever, if you're really cynical). So the best bet is in presenting your version, back up your facts where necessary, and then let it go.

Me, I have trouble with that last bit. But I'm trying. Still I get more worked about about the decisions in the off-season because those affect many games. By contrast the in-game decisions usually only affect the game at-hand. For me, it's just easier to go with the flow these days. Different strokes for different folks...

2007-06-04 12:08:15
113.   Bama Yankee
106 I was thinking the same thing, Andre.

Maybe williamny23 is the Banter's version of A-Rod (if you check the replay of his earlier post you can distinctly hear the word "Ha"). ;-)

BTW, william, being the Banter's A-Rod would be sweet if you could get Alex and Cliff to pony up the $25M per year. Of course, you could alway just opt out and go over to "The Griddle" if Bob Timmermann offered you more money...

Seriously, good job in taking the high road ealier William. Also, kudos to capdodger for the apology 97. I think that is the way Ken likes to see it work around here after those kinds of disagreements.

2007-06-04 12:16:04
114.   claybeez
107 Sorry, I don't find incessantly repeating the same information entirely rational. It assumes that no one else has read your premise or understood it. That's something I also do not find rational. I don't feel that the Banterers that have been pissed off have given in to their frustration due to how compelling the argument is. It's my perception that they become annoyed by having 1/3 to 1/2 of a thread taken up by the same "compelling argument" or pessimistic attitude with which they do not agree. Constant repetition is annoying. Take a child continuously asking "Why?" or "Are we there yet?" or something similar. It's also the reason that languages have pronouns. Repetition is innately annoying. It in no way is the illustration of a higher or more profound intellect.

The belief that others are ignorant when not swayed by one's "compelling argument" is the height of arrogance and bull-headedness.

Endarant.

2007-06-04 12:17:54
115.   mehmattski
Okay, so perhaps to add a bit of analytical-ness (analytictude?) to the Nomo debate, I decided to chart out the splits for Hideo Nomo's entire career based on whether there were men on base. Granted, this is not exact, and I'm sure there were times he pitched out of the stretch with no one on and out of the windup with men on base (particularly with the bases loaded). But I figure that if there is a significant difference, and Nomo was much better in the windup earlier in his career, it would show up in the stats.

So here goes:

http://tinyurl.com/227a3a

Short version, for those too lazy: Nomo was consistenly better with the bases empty early in his career, and much better with men on than bases empty later in his career. In his "resurgent" 2001, he was much better with men on base than with the bases empty. I think this gives solid evidence for williamny23's opinion.

2007-06-04 12:25:24
116.   williamnyy23
114 Go over all my posts on the Nomo thread and illustrate where any of your above rant applies. If you feel the need to blow off steam, go right ahead...personal attacks pretty much speak for those who author them.
2007-06-04 12:26:24
117.   capdodger
107 Look. Will. What ticked me off was that I was talking about pitching from the strech and you're acting like you don't hear me.

My basic supposition is that you can tell if Nomo's tornadoish delivery was fooling batters, or if it was his stuff, because he didn't spin as much from the strech postion. Proof of this comes from the following:
1- Law: Balks are called when a pitcher stops all motion when pitching from the strech.
2- Observation: Nomo's windup included a pause.
3- Statistics: Nomo's strech was different from his windup, because due to (1) and (2)when he threw from the strech in a similar manner to his windup he was called for balks.
4- Statistics: Once acclimated to the umpires, he pitched from the strech with one balk for the remainder of his career.
5- Ergo, Nomo's strech delivery was unlike his windup due to (4) and (3), as it contained fewer balkable elements (less spinning and pausing).
6- Ergo, from (6) if there are any performance differences between Nomo pitching from the windup and nomo pitching from the strech, they can, in some part, be attributed to his "deceptiveness".

From here we can look at the stats and determine if, indeed, Nomo had a better track record with runners on or with the bases empty. Using the splits Baseball Cube there isn't much of a difference, hence I conlude that his deceptiveness is overblown and his effectiveness came from the "stuff" to which Dave Wallace refered. The years in which he was unable to use his "stuff", he was a below average pitcher. When his "stuff" was good he was average to rather above average.

My beef with your argument, Will, is that you continued posting quotes Nomo's windup and statistics about his performance with the bases empty while ignoring the fact that talking about his strech delivery. If you're going to compare a strech delivery to a windup delivery, you want to look at bases empty vs. men on, not bases empty year-over-year. That's not the right stat for what you're trying to say. I mean, heck, the numbers you did provide don't prove a darn thing other than Nomo had his best years 26 and 27. To take that and then conlclude that he fell off a cliff because of his delivery is a rather big leap. Pitchers wear down over time, especially pitcher who throw as many innings as Nomo did. This was why I was glad that the Dodgers "passed" on Matsuzaka. It's the inning man...

I'm sorry I blew up at you Will. I really am. I'll probably flagellate my self for a while if Ken boots me, and he'd be right to. Have a nice day.

2007-06-04 12:31:24
118.   capdodger
115 No... It doesn't really. He was only much better out of the windup in one year - 1996. The other three early career years are with ~20 pts of OPS. That's a pretty much insignifigant difference. An extra base every couple of games or so...
2007-06-04 12:42:48
119.   mehmattski
118 At the same time, it also appears like his OPS against was pretty consistent from the stretch throughout his career. His OPS against from the windup, however, varied greatly from season to season.

Also look at the difference in his Windup-OPS from 1999 (NL) to 2000 (AL): .844 down to .695. He was facing entirely new batters in the American League for the Tigers that year (yes, the big park is an issue as well). The fact that his Windup-OPS returned to career levels in 2001 (despite having his best year since 1996) shows me that the AL hitters had adjusted to the tornado.

Perhaps Nomo's return to effectiveness in 2000-2002 was indeed a result of some re-found velocity. But the point that the league "figured out" how to hit Nomo with the bases empty- the NL in 1997 and the AL in 2001, shows that the delivery has at least something to do with it.

2007-06-04 12:52:34
120.   weeping for brunnhilde
Wow, all this brouhaha over Hideo Nomo, of all people?

You gotta admit, that's pretty funny.

Who'd have thought Hideo Nomo could engender such acrimony!

Laugh it off, team!

:)

2007-06-04 12:53:50
121.   kdw
114 So was that a Bronx Ranter? :)

35 Thank you for identifying why Miller can be so annoying. I've tried to describe it without success but you've nailed it.

2007-06-04 12:57:34
122.   williamnyy23
117 I just re-read the entire exchange and you did not bring up the "stretch" until 74. Then after referring me to other people's opinions, I suggested that there were also opinions on the other side of the debate, after which you wigged out. Now, I don't really care if you attack me because it doesn't reflect poorly on me. Having said that, your suggestion that I was ignoring you argument about the stretch is inaccurate. What's more, I still read the numbers to suggest that Nomo's performance in the wind-up alone was enough to affect and overall decline.

Once again, I have no problem with your opinion that other factors were involved. I acknowledged as much two times (71 and 74). If you go over it carefully, I never said you were wrong. I just didn't think you provided any compelling evidence to make me change my mind. Even after you have taken time to explain your point more fully, I still don't agree with it, although I do appreciate the approach much more.

With that said, I agree that we should just let the Nomo issue drop.

2007-06-04 12:58:02
123.   Vandelay Industries
120

Hey, I love Hideo Nomo. He won me $100 from my buddy who didn't believe he pitched a no hitter.

That was dwarfed however, by this punk I met in a Boston bar who was adamant that Kenny Rogers never pitched a perfect game. Thanks for the $300 slick, and for illustrating what I already knew about most Sox fans. A drunk and underinformed Red Sox fan, how novel.

2007-06-04 12:59:50
124.   Schteeve
I got engaged yesterday, the happiest day of my life thus far, even if the Yankees had lost last night I wouldn't have let it bother me, but watching A-Rod go deep off Papelbon to take the lead, and then watching Mo strike out Manny, and Lowell...perfect ending to a perfect day.

Thanks Yankees.

2007-06-04 13:01:26
125.   rockymtnyankee
More discussion of Nomo than I have ever heard in total prior. Someone could get a Ph.D from this.

What is a "fatigued groin" anyway? Sounds like something Wilt Chamberlain may have experienced.

I hope last night was a turning point, but the pitching match-ups for the ChiSox series worry me.....Garland vs. DeSalvo; Buehrle vs. Clippard; Wang vs. Vazquez (advantage Yankees); and, Contreras vs. Moose. Like others, I thought the Yankees would have turned it around with the Clemens' announcement, but they have been 9-16 since.

2007-06-04 13:02:55
126.   Vandelay Industries
124

My feeling is that so goes MO, so go the Yankees. If that downright beautiful pitcher/catcher sequence to Ortiz, Manny, and Propecia Free Grizzly Adams was any indication, I think we may have turned a corner here.

2007-06-04 13:03:19
127.   Yankee Fan In Boston
{124] congrats, schteeve.
2007-06-04 13:05:05
128.   Vandelay Industries
Although I do often wonder where Mo's high fastball has gone. Its still an effective pitch up and out of the zone, but yet he almost never uses it.
2007-06-04 13:07:25
129.   Schteeve
35 What's even more annoying about Miller on TV calling a Yanks/Sox game is that when Pedroia hits a double he goes...."BACK TO THE WALL!" "OFF THE WALL!"

when A-Rod homers off Papelbon he goes, "deep to right and into the bullpen."

2007-06-04 13:07:58
130.   Vandelay Industries
I did also appreciate the ESPN gun last night. Beckett doesn't throw 98 any more than MO throws 95. 93 and 91 was much more like it. And I've never heard Morgan so spot on with regard to Arod's "Ha" and Mo's pitching and Posada's pitch selection.
2007-06-04 13:11:36
131.   williamnyy23
According to the Houston Chronicle, Morgan Ensberg is out as an everyday player. Go get him Cashman! For some reason, the Astros seem hell bent on ruining this guy's career. Ensberg has a 119 Career OPS+, yet a few bad weeks and he gets benched. It seems like the same thing happens to him every year.
2007-06-04 13:11:51
132.   yankz
124 Damn dude, congrats, I can only hope my day turns out like that.

PS Alex totally has the "best day" thing down. Remember that?

2007-06-04 13:13:15
133.   Shotupthemiddle
129 Let's just forbid the Yanks & Sox from being the Sunday Night ESPN game from now on.

Let's do everyone a favor.

2007-06-04 13:14:01
134.   Vandelay Industries
Am I crazy to miss Gary Sheffield?
2007-06-04 13:14:54
135.   capdodger
119 Perhaps Nomo's return to effectiveness in 2000-2002 was indeed a result of some re-found velocity. But the point that the league "figured out" how to hit Nomo with the bases empty- the NL in 1997 and the AL in 2001, shows that the delivery has at least something to do with it.

There's insignifigant difference between Windup-OPS 1999 and Windup-OPS 2000. He just wasn't a good pitcher pitcher during those years. According to ERA+, he was average. Who would have thought that a 4.92 ERA pitcher would be average? Weird.

I think you meant to say that, in 1997, the NL figured out how to hit Nomo with runners on (regular stuff) before they hit off the tornado, and therefore his delivery had something to do with. An increase in year-over-year OPS out of one stance or the other just means the batters are figuring him out. It does not indicate if they are figuring out the delivery or the stuff is in decline. For that you need a comparison between the stances, and for most of his career, it's below the signal-to-noise threshold.

Besides, the orginal argument was that Nomo fell lost success after his adjustment period. That's just not true.

2007-06-04 13:15:28
136.   Bama Yankee
124 Congratulations on the engagement, schteeve.
2007-06-04 13:15:53
137.   capdodger
123 I hope you collected $200 from your friend.
2007-06-04 13:16:41
138.   Vandelay Industries
136

Looks like Croyle could see some action this coming season!

2007-06-04 13:19:09
139.   Bama Yankee
133 Hey shotupthemiddle, are you related to frequent Banter poster Jeteupthemiddle?
2007-06-04 13:23:16
140.   weeping for brunnhilde
124 Mazal tov, Schteeve!
2007-06-04 13:24:47
141.   rockymtnyankee
35, 129, 133. I think you are right about Miller....I used to enjoy him as the Orioles' radio announcer when I lived in that area years ago. The difference in his calls between the Yankees and the BoSox probably due to the Yankees' success in general, and specifically against the Orioles over the years. Have you heard his Bob Sheppard and Vin Scully impersonations?.....Great. He and Joe Morgan were much better last night than the game they covered when Dice-K pitched. Definitely ban them from Dice-K games.
2007-06-04 13:24:54
142.   Schteeve
Thanks to everyone for the congrats!

As for 134 I still believe in Abreu. I believe he'll finish this season strong. I'm not sure where Sheff would have played.

2007-06-04 13:26:54
143.   Vandelay Industries
142

I wanted Sheffield gone too. But that was before it became obvious that Giambi's career is over.

2007-06-04 13:28:50
144.   weeping for brunnhilde
35 Oh, and btw, that was perfect. Spot on.
2007-06-04 13:32:08
145.   Bama Yankee
138 Yeah, I read where Brodie got to work with the first team offense Friday. Maybe he will do more with his shot than my other home boy Andy Phillips did with his...
2007-06-04 13:32:41
146.   capdodger
122 I just re-read the entire exchange and you did not bring up the "stretch" until 74.

And again in 83.

Once again, I have no problem with your opinion that other factors were involved. I acknowledged as much two times (71 and 74 [sic]). If you go over it carefully, I never said you were wrong.

Yes. You sarcastically emphasised noted opinion while yelling. (In the intertubes, caps are yelling.)

With that said, I agree that we should just let the Nomo issue drop.

And let a New Yorker get the last word? Never.

Thin-crust sucks.

2007-06-04 13:34:11
147.   underdog
Cap, dude, did you get a temporary bout of Tourette's Syndrome in 85? This is actually an interesting discussion to have (Japanese pitchers, do they lose effectiveness, unorthodox deliveries...) so you guys made for some interesting fodder above but maybe not worth blowing a gasket over? Let's not give us Dodger fans a bad name (or worse name than we already have). ;-) I was actually thinking about this last night, watching that Yanks-RS game as Okajima pitched, and thinking, too, about Takashi Saito and his amazing success since joining LA last year. Many people assumed hitters would "figure him out" this year but they didn't count on Saito, too, making adjustments to the hitters in return. He's crafty, that guy, and he's been around for quite awhile. He had a minor injury yesterday so I don't know if that will affect him over the long haul and I certainly don't know if he'll keep it up, but he's been pretty amazing. He doesn't have much of an unorthodox delivery. He's just a smart pitcher, from what I've seen. Will be interesting to see what happens to Okajima.
2007-06-04 13:36:44
148.   AbbyNormal821
Schteeve! Engaged??? Schweeeeeet!!!

Congrats, dude!

2007-06-04 13:36:51
149.   claybeez
116 I wasn't speaking to the Nomo discussion specifically. I also wasn't speaking only about you. Some of your earlier posts were among those to which I was referring. However, I've also found you to make good arguments at times that I did agree with while others were getting upset with your comments. What I take umbrage with is the characterization that those who disagree with you demonstrate an inferior intellect and reasoning ability illustrated by the fact that they disagree with you and do not provide the type of evidence that you warrant to be sufficient. To me this is the worst kind of snobbery. I'm not going to go back and forth on this. Your certain retort will stand as the last if not the most enlightened or correct word.
2007-06-04 13:37:11
150.   underdog
Is Jon Miller really that bias against the Yankees? Annoying, maybe... Well, perhaps the ESPN brain trust gave him the indoctrinary Red Sox propaganda training course before he came aboard their Sunday night team. I know he normally does SF Giants broadcasts and is mostly enjoyable to listen to but occasionally I do want to strangle him.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-06-04 13:38:33
151.   Yankee Fan In Boston
146 nomo stinks? or his windup? or it doesn't?

whatever.

but don't you ever disrespect thin crust pizza.

not on my watch.

2007-06-04 13:39:55
152.   Vandelay Industries
Yikes! Just read Sheffield's statement. Umm, I take it all back, good luck in Detroit Sheff. The reason teams sign Latin players is because they come cheaper than players in the US, regardless of race, Sheffield, and that's that.
2007-06-04 13:41:43
153.   underdog
I love thin crust pizza. Mmmm. Although I also sometimes like some of those freaky incarnations of pizza they have at the California Pizza Kitchen and am embarrassed to admit it. Chicago style is a big, deep inedible mess though it can be quite tasty, too. Heck, now I'm hungry. Bye you folks.
2007-06-04 13:43:01
154.   claybeez
116 One more thing. Why the need to characterize people and insult them or their intelligence when they disagree with your thoughts, comments or philosophy? You don't know me. You only know that I and others have often disagreed with you. That's not enough to begin assassinating character as if you are the ultimate judge and arbiter.
2007-06-04 13:46:16
155.   AbbyNormal821
152 what comments & where?
2007-06-04 13:47:32
156.   Shotupthemiddle
139 To paraphrase Forrest Gump, "No sir, we are not relations...."
2007-06-04 13:48:25
157.   weeping for brunnhilde
152 I haven't read Sheffield's comments and I don't know what he's driving at, but for the sake of argument, is his position demonstrably false, or does it just appear so?

Could he plausibly be onto something?

2007-06-04 13:56:29
158.   mehmattski
Sheffield said, essentially, that the reason that black players have been on the decline and Latin players have been on the increase is tht Latin players are "easier to control" than black players.

http://tinyurl.com/2937ol

2007-06-04 13:58:10
159.   JL25and3
"It's about being able to tell (Latin players) what to do. ... Being able to control them. Where I'm from, you can't control us. You might get a guy to do it that way for a while because he wants to benefit, but in the end he is going to go back to being who he is. And that's a person that you're going to talk to with respect, you're going to talk to like a man. These are the things that my race demands.

"So if you're equally good as this Latin player, guess who's going to get sent home? I know a lot of players that are home now can outplay a lot of these guys."

God, I love Gary Sheffield. He never fails to validate my opinion of him.

2007-06-04 13:59:43
160.   JL25and3
121, 144 Thanks. Glad to know it's not just me.
2007-06-04 14:04:39
161.   weeping for brunnhilde
159 Ha ha ah aha ha ha!!!

Wow, that's fairly comical.

Just, wow.

2007-06-04 14:09:30
162.   AbbyNormal821
159 Good Lord...he really is in love with himself! What a douchebag! <--pardon my potty mouth, but that word I feel is quite appropriate at this time!
2007-06-04 14:16:24
163.   Vandelay Industries
157

No, Sheffield is not onto something. As Pedro would say, you have one kid at USC and another sitting under a banana tree with a cardboard box as a glove. One signs for $500,000 and one for $10,000. You're the GM, who do you sign? African Americans not in baseball because they don't talk to them like men? Come on Sheffield. When a team is thinking about signing you, you "yes sir, no sir" them to death whether you're black, white, latin, or asian. Its not about respect, its about a chance that very few get, and when you get it, you take advantage of it, you don't make demands. This kind of statement is the worst kind to make, because it perpetuates the idea that someone else is to blame for your problems. It leads wayward kids to believe that they are owed something, that they can talk to employers with attitude, that they are not to blame for anything. This may be true in the private sector to a great degree, but in sports, it most definitely is not. If he really cared he would be funding inner city parks and leagues, mentoring kids, and building parks in Africa to expose kids to the game, and a host of other things. Sheffield has always had a chip on his shoulder the size of Mount Rushmore, but now he is hurting others, and that makes him a bad and selfish person.

2007-06-04 14:18:15
164.   AbbyNormal821
163 Sheffield's arrogance makes Reggie Jackson sound like Michael Jackson!
(and I love Reggie's arrogance!!!)
2007-06-04 14:21:56
165.   RIYank
139 I was wondering the same. I mean, how common could that last name be?

As long as underdog is among us, Dodger fans will never have a bad name. And speaking of the quality of names, I must say that 'Vandelay Industries' is our funniest handle. 'Weeping for Brunnhilde' is the most intriguing, needless to say.

And now, onto the White Sox game thread?

2007-06-04 14:24:00
166.   Vandelay Industries
165

Thanks! Very few get where it is from, so I appreciate the comment. I will DVR'ing the game here on the West Coast, but my thoughts will be with you. Go Yankees! Desalvo needs a contract so he can get to the dentist.

2007-06-04 14:33:37
167.   Vandelay Industries
I love Larry Flint. He offered to 1 Mil. to anyone willing to come forward and talk about their affair with a US Congressman. And I lost Dianne Fienstein's number. Dammit!
2007-06-04 15:02:53
168.   Bama Yankee
166 Mr. Vandelay: I like your name too, but can we just refer to you as Art? It is so much easier to type than Vandelay Industries... BTW, how's the import/export business these days anyway?
;-)
2007-06-04 15:18:21
169.   Schteeve
If I was a pitcher of latin descent, Mr Sheffield would be headed for the emergency room really soon. Those comments are outrageously racist.
2007-06-04 15:23:09
170.   underdog
165 Aww, thanks!

And I always picture Vandelay Industries typing here after running in from the bathroom with his pants around his ankles.

2007-06-04 16:06:55
171.   RIYank
Huh, I always thought he was an architect. Who used to work for the Yankees. Or maybe he someday will work for the Yankees (I've been watching reruns with my kids so my timeline is all screwed up).

169 I think it must somehow be narcissism rather than racism, though I admit I can't quite figure out how.

2007-06-04 17:44:29
172.   Raf
163 Which opens up another can of worms... Is the player from USC overpaid, or is the kid under the banana tree underpaid?

To be honest I don't know why there aren't more brothers in baseball. All the reasons given don't really make any sense when analyzed.

But I'd have to say, in light of chances given to players like Toe Nash, Delmon Young, or even currently with Elijah Dukes, I'd have to say Sheffield is a bit off base.

2007-06-04 20:11:21
173.   bbfan1
"it's a shame that some people can't handle someone else having an informed opinion and demanding evidence before being persuaded."

Your opinion isn't informed. You said to look at the examples given. They're bull. Two pitchers that had success early and then less as time went on for many reasons. You point to discussions about nomo's delivery, as if that proves anything. Hitters get use to pitchers, but that is more than just delivery.

Seriously, if you told someone in baseball that kim lost it because hitters got use to his delivery they would laugh at you.

You're a polite debater, and you write constantly, but god do you write some drivel. And what constitutes proof in your mind is more often than not nonsense.

The loudest voice isn't usually the most intelligent.

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