Baseball Toaster was unplugged on February 4, 2009.
By now, you’ve heard everything remotely possible breaking down the speculation of Joe Torre’s firing and George Steinbrenner’s statement, which added some slack to the leash on Torre and GM Brian Cashman.
The Yankees finished April losing eight of nine – including five of six to the Red Sox – a 9-14 overall record, a walking wounded list that an NFL team would envy, and numerous questions regarding the cause of their demise. The Yankees led in all five of those games. In four of the eight losses, the Yankees held leads in the seventh inning or later. They could easily be 15-8, 16-7 or 17-6; they’d still have the same flaws but because the victories would far outnumber the defeats, we wouldn’t be discussing the current state of affairs.
As we know, “losing is not acceptable.”
Torre is a convenient scapegoat. He is certainly part of the problem, but he’s not the sole reason for the poor start. He’s correct in that Torre didn’t re-sign a fragile Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, or bid way too much for Kei Igawa, who should probably be a situational reliever in the Hideki Okajima mold. Torre hasn’t gone 1-for his last 20 like Bob Abreu. He isn’t whining about cramps in his forearm or calling throwing 20 of 45 pitches off a mound “progress.” He didn’t catch too much of the plate with a pitch to Marco Scutaro in Oakland or to Coco Crisp at Fenway. He isn’t the LOOGY (lefty one-out guy) who is throwing up loogies.
Don Zimmer told the New York Post that Cashman is the problem, and that the Torre criticism is unjust. Because he served as Torre’s consiglieri for eight seasons, his words can be taken seriously on one level. Don’t discount Zimmer’s bitterness toward the Yankee organization, however. When Zimmer and Steinbrenner had their tiff during the 2003 season – YES was prohibited from showing Zimmer on camera during games, he was forbidden from appearing on any network programs, and he declined several interview requests for the dot.com – Torre was affected. He’s never outwardly said it, but do remember the frequent camera shots where it appeared Torre was sleeping during games? You don’t see them too much anymore. From 1996-2003, Torre managed the egos and media -- he still does -- but he lost a great tactician in Zimmer. It’s not a stretch to conclude that the results would be better if Torre still had his right-hand man. Torre is on his fourth bench coach in as many seasons, and while all were capable despite never having comparable experience, none was as good as Zimmer. It’s not a coincidence that Zimmer’s absence and three straight years of “Fire Joe” talk have paralleled each other.
Three years ago, the Yankee rotation’s mediocre performance was the foundation for 61 comeback victories. What happened over the past weekend is similar to two years ago, when the Yankees started the season 11-19 -- including losing six of seven to the Red Sox -- brought up Chien-Ming Wang in late April and Robinson Cano in early May in Tampa. The team went through growing pains before rattling off 10 straight wins on a West Coast trip (Cano batted close to .400 on that trip after starting is Major League career 0-for-22), and eking out the Division in Boston on the season’s final weekend. Injuries befell the team early last season as well. There were no revelations like Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon going 17-3 as in 2005, but the team bore down and got through its funk.
The Daily News’ Bob Raissman pointed out that Sterling and Waldman are blaming the media for “looking for stories” over the course of April; that seasons aren’t decided in the first month. Tell that to the 1988 Baltimore Orioles or any Tampa Bay Devil Rays team prior to this season.
Steinbrenner is not forcing hair-trigger moves like the Raul Mondesi trade of 2002 following the inexplicable placement of Enrique Wilson in right field against the Mets (correction: I mistakenly wrote Red Sox). But while he’s only speaking to the media through his publicist, Howard Rubinstein, and to a lesser degree team president Randy Levine and COO Lonn Trost, for as long as he’s alive, he is omnipresent in that front office.
The culture he has created, where pressure to win is so intense that any letdown is considered failure, is a double-edged sword. Are the media creating the state of emergency when Brian Cashman tells Anthony McCarron of the Daily News that he’s “never felt secure” in his job? Are they formulating fiction when Torre likens this aspect of the job to “dancing with the heat”?
When Jerome from Manhattan calls Steve Sommers’ show and says, “They won’t come out of this. Torre and Cashman need to be fired,” is that a media creation or an extension of the spoiled Yankee culture?
Starting last Friday, when the Torre/Cashman smoke billowed, the coverage on all accounts – from broadcast – except Sterling and Waldman on WCBS – the papers and the blogosphere has deftly mixed hard-news reporting, analysis, speculation, projection, and the columnists like Joel Sherman have offered provocative and practical solutions. Scribes like Bill Madden have pointed out the unfairness of bringing in Don Mattingly at this point and questioned other possibilities like Larry Bowa.
Mike and the Mad Dog – more Russo than Francesa – claim that Torre has continued to return and put himself in the line of fire for the financial gain. I don’t know Torre beyond my reporter/manager dealings with him, but it wouldn’t surprise me if that was true. Prior success is also a motivating factor. He basked in the glory of four championships and was arguably the most popular manager the city has seen. Wouldn’t you want to go out on a high note and recapture that high?
“(Torre) will be the manager when the Yankees play Texas, but I think he’s one or two more bad series away from being fired,” Buster Olney told Mike Greenberg and Mike Golic on ESPN Radio Monday morning.
Olney acknowledged George Steinbrenner’s desire to scapegoat Torre in previous years, noting – as did the NY Post’s George King on Monday– that Cashman talked him out of firing Torre. Two years ago, following Mel Stottlemyre’s resignation, the prevailing thought was that Torre would be gone. Cashman and Steve Swindal talked him into coming back.
Joe Girardi told Michael Kay Monday afternoon that the team still doesn’t have an identity. He said to see where things are on June 1. By then, Roger Clemens may be here, the Yankees could be in first place and for another year, we’ll be talking about the greatest managerial job Torre and Cashman have done.
The thing to remember while processing the “manager/GM job watch” story is this: the media haven’t created the environment, they are a product of it.
It's all part of the experience of playing & working in New York.
Nice post, Will.
And yeah, I think Zim leaving was the big blow.
Still, the premise is sound...Joe Torre's tenture as Yankee manager is a vibrant issue (not a dead horse or a media creation).
1. Igawa is hot and cold. He always has been. One awful stinker. One great start. That's what Yankee fans should expect. He can't come out of the pen long term. He may as well be traded or go back to Japan. It's not in him.
2. I'm not a huge Torre fan, but you can't fire him now. It accomplishes nothing. The Yankees made their bed with Joe when they decided to bring him back in for another year. If the team is looking out of contention in July, he may be fired, but as long as there's a glimmer of hope for a winning run at it, he's here.
3. Virtually all of sports in 2007 is a media creation. There are so many outlets, both mainstream and grassroots, that the stories about the games end up being the thing to follow. There is a huge number of fans nowadays that grab hold of the drama, personalities, and storylines surrounding sports that the game becomes a peripheral. It's the Fox-ification of sports. It's the SportCenter MTV-ification of the games. The tabloids are a dying breed of daily chronicles that can't possibly survive the blogosphere, except that you can't yet access blogs on your subway ride to work.
It's all very media-rrific.
-owner of the Yankees who always buys his teams
-"Da Boss"
-"he's the guy who fired all those managers"
and its not necessarily in that order.
3 Zimmer was a very good tactician. He had some flaws - too much wasted hitting and running comes to mind - but was quality.
Its a shame the Yanks can't find another master tactician, who Torre would listen to, to serve as bench coach.
This is something else I could see Mark Cuban doing if he owned the Pirates or the Cubs - hiring a guy to be "strategy coach" or something like that.
- Never let Abreu bunt with 1st and 2nd and no outs
- Never let Joe pinch run for a DH
- Never let Cairo play 1b or OF
- Never let a pitcher throw three days in a row
http://tinyurl.com/2pwmz9
Rumors swirling of Sabathia and Zambrano being dealt if their teams are out of it. Yankees interested? I like Sabathia more, since he's proven in the AL and the Indians are cost-conscious (meaning just picking up the salary is big in a trade, a la Abreu). Also, Zambrano said he doesn't wanna play for the Yankees, just the Mets if it's NYC.
I don't see firing him during the season making any kind of serious change of direction, but I do think that it's something that the FO should look at during this offseason.
Ride out the season with Torre and if the starting pitching doesn't start to fall into place by June, then start planning for some shake-ups.
Frickin' Pavano.
If they can agree on a trade, and sign him for less than Zito money, you have to do it.
Sabathia - no thanks. Seems much closer to a LAIM (#4 or #5) and the Yanks already have a few of those in the system.
8 GS 1 W 7 L 41.2 IP 7.13 ERA 43 H 33 ER 30 BB 24 K
With that kind of record, I'd rather they continue to face him.
Now, it could be that like Sterling and Kay, Torre and Zim were great together, but mediocre apart. Regardless, let's not lionize Zimmer too much. I think the bigger concern is Torre having 4 different bench coaches over four seasons. If you want to criticize Cashman for anything, perhaps you can blame him for not realizing Torre needed a more stable right hand man.
Sure, you could argue he could have gotten lifers a la Zim, but Randolph, Girardi, and Mazz weren't terrible choices.
Zambrano has had better career numbers to date, yes, but I'm not sure his BB rate would survive in the AL. That, plus, he spends all day on the computer and gets tennis elbow.
I'd take either. But I would definitely look into a Sabathia trade.
Zimmer not only had all that experience. He also had many years to get comfortable expresssing it. That level of personal relationship, even intimacy, isn't so easily replaced.
Sorry, I just can't get with you on this one.
19 He's also pitched 200 innings only once in his career, in 2002. For a supposed #1 of his team, that's not worth big money or big prospects.
His ERA+ looks like this:
103
103
118
110
102
139
That looks more like one career year than an outstanding pitcher.
By contrast Zambrano has a career ERA+ of 129.
I would really hate to see Cashman fired this season and I just don't see it happening. he has too much control right now and there isn't enough control anywhere else.
And I agree with the comments on Torre not getting fired until June or so; I am hardly a supporter, but I just don't see it making a difference on this team. Maybe a negative one, but this team this season will win or lose with Joe. The offseason was/is the time to make that kind of move for this team...
The point I tried to make before was that more prospects would have to be given for Zambrano, since the Cubs aren't exactly cost-conscious, whereas the Indians need to save money. Besides, yes, Sabathia hasn't reached 200 IP more than once, but he has been between 188 and 197 otherwise since he's established himself.
He doesn't have to be outstanding to be a massive, massive upgrade right now. For the price (relative to Zambrano's), I think that's worth it.
"To me, Cashman is the problem," Zimmer said yesterday without going into detail. "Four or five years ago, we were in the coaches' room and talking about the club and he said, 'Anybody can manage this team.' Well, let him manage that team now with all those injuries."
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05012007/sports/yankees/zim_puts_blame_on_yankees__george_king.htm
The key person in that incredible run was David Cone. He was the heart and soul of the dynasty.
Besides, Zimmer, much as I like the guy and his ugly mug, has shown to bear a grudge just a bit...
34 Well, not 2000, when he was dreadful, and not 2001, when he was a Red Sox. (Red Sock?)
There was no one person who was the "heart and soul" of those teams; that's why they were so good. They had a strong and balanced offense, some top starting pitchers, solid defense, a deep bullpen, and some genuinely useful role players. And the manager used them well.
I dunno about that, Will.
Even though I wasn't around, I'd say Stengel was the most popular baseball manager the world has ever seen.
He was as big as his players. Probably the only person in New York who didn't worship Stengel was DiMaggio. Nevermind that he won nearly twice as many championships as Torre, but he also played for/or managed the Mets, Dodgers, and Giants. Baseball-wise no New Yorker has had that kind of reach.
Ralph Houk was also a folk hero in New York. Probably the only person in NY who didn't care for him was Jim Bouton. Everybody loved Houk, especially the players.
Of course few Yankee characters are, or will ever be more beloved than Yogi. Jeter isn't as loved as Yogi. No way Joe is more popular than Yogi.
I think one could also argue that Billy Martin was more popular than Joe. Billy Martin was a New York rock star, every bit as big as his players.
Don't get me wrong. Joe was tremendously popular in his day, epecially when Frank went in for the heart transplant, and when he suffered his own health problems. New York loves a winner, especially a hometown kid that everybody thought couldn't cut it as the Yanks manager.
Still, I'd say there were other managers who captivated the city in a way that even good old Joe Torre has not.
37 I knew that, but IMHO the manager should be telling his #3 hitter NOT to bunt, and especially not with runners on 1st and 2nd an nobody out.
Just joking with you.
Houk? I remember him well, and I don't recall his ever being much of a fan favorite. His stint as GM was instrumental in tearing that team apart, and after that he just presided over bad teams. He spent a lot of time with his foot on the top step of the dugout, leaning on his knee, picking up pebbles and tossing them; other than that, I'm not sure what he did that was noteworthy.
Billy - well, Billy's in a class by himself. You could make the case that he was the most loved, and also that he was the most hated. I certainly wouldn't want him managing the team this year (or last year, for that matter).
Who do you think replaces Torre? Me, I'd rather have a totally different personality to shake things up (Pinella, Valentine) than a Torre protege. But I don't see that happening.
47 I'd say the masses were crazy about Stengel when the Yanks won 5 in a row, and a few more to boot.
Didn't realize Scooter despised anyone!
Houk, as a "player's manager," was very popular with some fans, my dad being one of them. Winning a couple championships was noteworthy, no?
But where would you figure Joe fits in the pantheon of Yankees managers? Ranked below Stengel and Billy but above Houk? Also we're forgetting Huggins. He was dead before my dad was born so I don't have any anecdotal evidence to base an opinion on.
Three championships is certainly worth something, even if he was submitting lineups with the names Ruth and Gehrig on 'em.
When a team has injuries, we like to say "No Excuse". But Common! We have a good/great team because we have good/great players. When said players are injured and not playing... well...
Of our SP, we opened the year with injuries to our #1, #3, #4 and #6. It so happens, we now have a team ERA of just over 5. While we don't have a great staff, I think we will do much better then this as the year progresses. Wang and Moose will be better then Rasner/Wright/Karstens.
Our offense, lead by ARod, started out amazing. It has fallen off terribly in the last 10 games. Four impact batters (Abreu, Damon, Cano, Matsui) are doing crap. This won't last. Minky won't bat .150 all year. Melky wont have a Womackian OPS all year. Mo won't be blowing 2 of 3 saves all year. Our BP won't be as burnt out as they are now all year.
We at the Banter, have watched many games together. The suckitude has been obvious. But with all it's faults and holes, our team on paper, if we don't keep getting hit with injuries, is a first place team.
While it is possible, it is doubtful that all this 'suckitude' will continue.
If we dodge injuries, I think we will win 95+ games. Our biggest problem is that the Sox look like they have excellent pitching. If it continues, they will win over 100 games.
Seriously, I don't mind too much with Bobby bunting there. If he feels that he's that lost at the plate, maybe something like that will help him get his confidence back. At least it's not a Jeter bunting all the time thing.
Because he never played the game, he was heavily scrutinized.
I suspect "Yankees McCarthy era" bloggers would have had a field day with him.
David Letterman had a few Yankee comments on last night's show:
"George Steinbrenner is putting the Yankees back on steroids."
"The Yankees are in last place. The good news is I am no longer the highest paid disapointment in New York."
I know certain Bronx Banterers have that.
Check it out. Jim Dean is going to write in 87 "The Yanks need a damn backup catcher, and a new first baseman, pronto!"
Casey had rather of a mean streak in him. He had his pets, but he still could ride them pretty hard. When the team decided to release Rizzuto, Stengel handled it in a really rotten way. Scooter never really forgave him.
Of course, he could also be damn funny about it - like the time he sidled up to Bob Cerv on the bench and told him, "One of us has just been traded to Kansas City."
For the past several years (not this year), the Yankees have continually fielded the oldest team in MLB. (I believe SF took the crown this year.) When you field the oldest team in MLB, you should expect injuries.
So while the Wang and Karstens injuries don't really fit the mold, the Moose and Damon injuries definitely do. Continue to expect many of the Yanks to miss at least a few games due to injury -- add Posada, Giambi, and Pettitte to the highly likely list. This is not improbable, but rather probable when you field an aging team.
I'm also not sure I agree that Mussina "will be better then Rasner/Wright/Karstens." I'm from Missouri on that one...
But anybody who can bust out a line like the one he dropped on poor Cerv is someone to be admired. That's exactly why Stengel is a folk hero around here.
Robinson is a second cousin of mine and he tells me that the team is sticking together on a day to day basis. Thats all we can ask for. There is good chemistry in the clubhouse, and with the talent we have, it is only a matter of time before we are on top looking down as usual.
Red Sox suck
That was a pretty crappy - and mean - way of handling it.
As for the quotes, well, Casey was great. There was his advice about chasing women: "You gotta learn that if you don't get it by midnight, chances are you ain't gonna get it, and if you do, it ain't worth it." Or his judgment of Greg Goosen: "Twenty years old, and in ten years he's got a good chance to be thirty."
Creamer's biography of Stengel is excellent.
As much as I love Bernie, who is also sensitive, I sorta wish Joe or Cashman had done the same with him.
But then Bernie could have pointed to Myers or Minky, for example, and said he deserved to be on the team more than them, and I'm not sure if Joe or Cash could have argued with him about that.
IIRC, the exact details are in dispute, and depend on who you're reading. I think Steven Goldman tried to sort this out in "Forging Genius" - but I don't remember for sure and can't check my copy because I'm at work, and its at home.
Joe McCarthy might, or might not, have been beloved by the fans. He certainly doesn't live on in folklore like Stengel does. But McCarthy is the greatest manager in Yankee history, period. He's probably the second greatest manager of all-time behind John McGraw, and to me McGraw only gets an edge because he innovated so much. Of course McGraw was in a much better position to innovate, as he took over the Giants in 1902.
McGraw, of course, was also Stengel's mentor.
72 Can you ask him if it bothers him when Suzyn Waldman calls him Rawbie Cuh'no?
I've been meaning to pick up Goldman's book.
Hey, where's your fellow Dutchman these days? Haven't seen wsporter around. Or have I just missed him?
Earl Weaver did the same thing. He was also the best manager I've ever seen, at least for more than one year. (For one year, and one year only, I'd take Billy.)
"Being with a woman all night never hurt no professional baseball player. It's staying up all night looking for a woman that does him in."
http://tinyurl.com/2tfjrg
88 That's fuggin' hillarious, Jim Dean!
Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.