There is also the impending streak of how many days in a row firing Joe Torre will be discussed.

What in the world is up with Bobby Abreu? Has anyone figured out whether those bunts are on his own or coming from the dugout? It's painful to see someone I've been a fan of for so long struggle so terribly.

The last sentence is spot on. Is it true that throwing a few pitches every day is worse than throwing a bunch of pitches every few days?

Re Abreu, everyone slumps. A-God himself is just 3 for his last 18 (I believe). He'll turn it around.

2 Torre basically said after today's game that Abreu's bunting on his own. The exact quote was something along the lines of: if you don't give a guy any sign he's free to do what he wants.

1 Yeah. That we can break right now. It's not going to happen. Move along.

1

Tell me about it. I taped the game and read the thread later on the evening. I felt like I was walking into De La Hoya vs. Merriweather or something.

Yikes is all I can say. Fire Joe Torre now? First of all, I doubt very many of the players would be happy about that, not that that should matter I suppose. However, Arod's fall back to earth has shined a light on the fact that six of our nine hitters are slumping. The rotation is about as bad as I can remember during Torre's tenure, and the bullpen--less Henn--is like pulling names out of a hat. Who can tell the difference between any of them? None of this is Joe's fault. Let the rotation get healthy and then resume the fire Joe Torre talk.

The team is playing badly. Not hitting and not pitching. It is not unheard of, and isn't reason to throw the life raft overboard and jump! Admittedly I am a big Deadliest Catch fan, pardon the metaphor.

I like Joe. None of what is happening right now is his fault. However, we are stuck with what we have right now. The reason Joe should be let go has nothing to do with the regular season, as we have made the playoffs every year he has been here. It is the fact that he will refuse once again to start guys on short rest and overuse relievers in the post-season should we make it. I've said this before, but Joe should have been fired the day after he started Kevin Brown in 2004. Not because it would have changed the outcome--once again, none of you know what would or would not happen if Joe takes a different appraoch during games, and I wish you all would stop saying "this never would have happened if Joe had... Because you dont have any idea--but because it didnt give the team the best chance to win an elimination game. Really, that is his only job. Basketball coaches mix up rotations and mix guys in and out to try to get the right fit. Moving a lineup around is no different, and at least Joe does try to mix it up when we are playing badly.

We can get out of this funk. The players decide the outcome after all, and whether to use Proctor, Bruney et al. isnt all that big of a deal as some make it out to be.

If Joe should be fired it will be because should we make the post-season and are stuck in a game five or seven, he will leave his best pitching option on the bench because he doesn't have enough rest, or he is "worried" about him.

This is not the time to fire Joe. He has no control over the freak pitching injuries and lineup slump. Be careful what you wish for mid-season, the grass isn't always greener, whether it grows from the meticulously sculpted lawn of Joe Girardi or Don Mattingly.

Let's get healthy and see what happens. The fact that they are going with Hughes so soon is a sign that things are bad, and I don't think Joe has any control over what is happening. This team feels just like last year's to me. Guys are thrilled when they hit a walk off, or when something extraordinary occurs, but I do not see that gritty, do the little things and play hard every-day-play that wins titles. Just my two cents. That is what upsets me, not whether Joe should pull a guy with a busted fingernail and fresh from the DL, out after 84 pitches. And who he brings in after that really doesn't matter. Did I fall asleep, wake up, and we now have a stud in the bullpen that we didnt have before.

I think it's pretty well accepted that RPs are more effective pitching 3IP once every three games rather than 1IP every game. I think Torre knew this at one point in his managerial career but has forgotten. I'm putting Torre's magic number at 10 games out of first place. He's got 3.5 games of rope left. Nobody is guaranteed a fairy tale ending in New York. Not Bernie, not Donnie Baseball, not Paul O'Neill, and not Joe Torre. Nobody.

5 Great post, V...

And sit tight for the next 2 minutes or so... :-)

6

But what is he to do when his starters are averaging 4.8 innings per start and every reliever he brings in proceeds to cough up runs? The statistics are there. Most relief innings. Fewest innings by starters. They play 162 games in 180 days. There isn't much time for rest when your starters are asking the bullpen to give them more than four innings every game. I am not being contrary, but what else can he do. All he can do is ask relievers to take one for the team and blow the game, so that others can rest.

You say: "I think it's pretty well accepted that RPs are more effective pitching 3IP once every three games rather than 1IP every game." However, teams win more games when their starters go 7+ innings per game. Teams win more games when their offense averages 6+ runs per game. But that's blue sky perfect world stuff. Right now the Yankees are not in a perfect world.

It is easy to say "don't bring him in again," but then, who do you bring in?

We just have to suck up the fact that we have a slumping offense and absolutely no healthy pitching and hope that they can pull it together. The Red Sox wont be healthy all season, and we have a much better offense.

It kills me when the "Joe must stay" crowd says him being fired shouldn't be discussed and then give a 500+ word essay on why they think he shouldn't be fired.
I think it's absurd to bring a RP in for 2 or 3 outs, then another for another inning, etc instead of letting guys pitch longer and less often. I've heard a lot of pitchers say the number of innings is important, but not nearly as important as the number of appearances. I have yet to hear one say the opposite.

BTW this is the same guy who in one of baseball's more mean-spirited moments, batted Arod 8th in the play-offs just last fall.

5 I agree that firing Torre, for this or that in game move would be a mistake. However, I think there are legitimate reasons to question his managing, irrespective of where the team is. I believe the Yankees are in a transition period now, these last few years has been more of a transition period for the team, as we are shifting from the old guard to several new players. Throughout, Torre has shown a reluctance to give these players a shot, only playing them when his hand is forced. Case in point right now, is continually trotting Minky out, who, despite a freak HR today is batting .150 and is not Keith Hernadez at 1B. Where was his amazing range during that Crisp triple last week? A couple of years ago, it was Torre continually playing Womack instead of giving Cano an honest shot for week after week.

Torre has also shown an inability to effectively manage a pitching staff. I don't care if he brought in reliever X who gave up a run. Sometimes that happens, and you can't predict it. There is never any perfect move. However, he has a tremendously overworked bullpen at the moment and yet he has had an absurdly quick hook with his starters so far. There have been several times when a starter is under 100 pitches in the 5th, 6th or 7th and when one or two batters reach base here comes Torre out of the dugout. In addition, his inability to designate a long man and just let the guy pitch has killed the bullpen. I want to win as much as anyone, but when we're down 4 or 5 runs, is it really necessary to burn 3 relievers? As Cliff and others have said, just taking the loss sometimes can win the war. I wonder if Dice-K was on our team, when he gives up a few runs in the middle innings, would Torre leave him in as Francona has done to battle?

His tactical decisions are just downright awful in-game. We've all gone over this before, but pinch running for Giambi in the 7th inning (when he is the DH) with a 1 or 2 run lead is just dumb. I'm sorry, it is. I know Abreu bunting is supposed to be on his own, well if its clearly a stupid move its Torre's job to tell him not to. Put on a "no bunt" sign.

Torre's real strength has always been motivating and insulating his players in a harsh NY environment. However, after his treatment of A-Rod last year, both the SI article and the lineup shakeups have caused me to question this. Love or hate A-Rod, he is arguably one of the best all around players in the game, and Torre's failure to maximize his potential is frustrating. Of course, some, or most of this goes on Alex, or whoever the other player is (I'm using him as an example), and maybe nothing Torre could have done would have helped, but if he really thought contributing to the SI article was the way to go, he has lost touch with some players.

As for the players standing up for him. That's both unsurprising and the correct thing to do. I've had coaches in various sports that I have downright hated, and I would have publicly gone to bat for them. That's what a team does. Also, many who are there have played a long time with him. He also seems to be popular with his players. You don't want to lose him, well tough, then play better.

I don't mean this to say "Fire Torre now!" I don't yet know if I feel that way, but since the end of last season I have found myself questioning him whereas in the past I have always been one of his defenders. I love him, and what he's done for NY and the Yankees. I think he is a decent, stand up, honorable man and a great manager. That said, I'm no longer 100% sure he's the right manager for this team.

Sigh. So much for 4. You can type all you want. Torre's job is not on the line. Regardless of whether you think it should be or think it shouldn't, it's just not.

8 10 Not that I'm in the "Fire Torre" camp -- because I'm not -- but he really is making some lousy decisions of late. The pinch-runner for Giambi last weekend in Boston was just horrific -- I won't rehash all the reasons why. And I really don't know why Phelps is even on the roster since it's clear that he is not going to get any sort of chance.

I would also have to agree that he is being too quick with the hook on the starters. No way Hughes should throw 100 pitches, but as far as guys like Wang, Igawa and Pettitte are concerned, sometimes they just have to stay out there and work out of trouble or get bombed. Simply because if they don't, you destroy your pen in meaningless innings. When your starter comes out of the game before the fifth inning, the guy you bring in has to pitch at least two - that's just a given. If you don't have a guy in the pen who can come in and handle long relief, then you have the wrong roster.

All that having been said, I thought Igawa actually saved Gator's job on Saturday. Without that outing, I would have expected Guidry to get his walking papers Monday. And again, I'm not saying that would have been right, but right or not, somebody's head is going to roll very soon and he is actually the most likely target IMHO.

Up until this weekend, I actually didn't think the team was playing all that badly (considering the injuries) -- they've just been unable to close out the close games when they needed to.

Seriously, at this rate of luck soon A-rod and Posada will knock each other out cold while colliding to catch a pop up and both be out for the season and Yankees will play Andy Phillips and Wil Nieves the rest of the way.

All the injuries so far have mostly been small injuries that really can happen to anyone anytime, but somehow managed to happen to the Yankees at a ridiculas rate and all at the same time. unbelievable

Wow, I was going to contribute to a recent heated discussion here, by noting that maybe the reason for the decline in discourse on the Banter this season has been Alex and Cliff not having time to intervene as much...

But when Cliff puts his foot down (4), he just gets ignored...and people post longer than ever dissertations on a very tired, repetitive topic. Do posters really not want to listen to the folks who run the place and have some actual knowledge and authority?

Soooooo... anybody like stuff?*

How 'bout dem Golden State Warriors, huh?

Is this nuts or what? But if they blow the 3-1 lead over the Mavs, I say Nellie gets drawn and quartered at Pier 39. The b@stard. Who's with me?

.

*Sorry. A Simpsons reference, breaking the awkward... oh, never mind...

15 That was a great game, I actually enjoyed the NBA for once.

I haven't for a while, considering i'm a Knicks fan. This is why I'm not fretting over the Yanks. It could be a lot worse.

Well, on the bright side and to be an optimist, let's just say that even considering the nail, Wang was pretty effective (6Ip and 4 runs ain't so bad, and he could have done more), Pettitte will rebound from his last start, Igawa has put together more good than bad starts, and Hughes will dominate tomorrow. The offense will obviously hit sooner or later...

Sooo, things are lookin up!

It was a great game. Could this be the biggest upset in NBA history?

Am I the only one who wanted to see Kobe carry the Lakers through the playoffs? He's so entertaining to watch, and yes, the Suns are great, I get it, but I'm sick of them.

If we want to talk about streaks, how about Jeter? 56/58, good grief, if there's anyone who can make a run at it it's him.

16,18 Same here. Knicks fan too, and only drawn into the NBA playoffs thanks to the unexpected rise of the Warriors. Always been a Chris Mullen fan (St. Johns), and living out here through some really terrible Warrior teams — and seeing my extended family suffering but sticking with them — I've got a soft spot for 'em.

16

I am with you brother! Some of the best basketball I've seen in quite some time. Just completely humbling and manipulating the Maverick's poor little brains.

Its great because those fans up there are so great!

18

I was at the game today. It was awful.

18

The Laker game that is. Kobe has no help. Not much he can do.

21 Yeah the atmosphere in that arena was incredible. Made it hard to root against the Warriors. I can't wait for the Garden to return to that type of atmosphere, when (if) the Knicks make the playoffs again and look like they have a chance in a series.

24

I hope you're a young man. It is going to be a long wait. Don't smoke, and excercise every day.

25 Ha! At this point, I'm just waiting til 2010 when Wade and LeBron become available.

16, Sure, you think it could be worse, after all the Dolans could own the team, right? Ha ha... then you read this:

http://tinyurl.com/2wnlwu

NOOOOOOOOOOO!

Okay, okay, it's just speculation. There's absolutely no reason to think this will actually happen. But just seeing the phrase "Dolan family has keen interest in buying Yankees" absolutely made my blood run cold.

26 Maybe The Boss is so p*ssed at the Dolans headline headfake, he'll buy the Knicks and right the ship. Wade, The King, Duncan and Kobe would be a good start...

28 Yeah and adding David Lee to that would make it a pretty good team. That is probably the only player I'd like the Knicks to keep long term, fun guy to watch.

27 If that were to actually happen, I'd probably just abandon sports altogether.

28 I love it. Although, even if he weren't already in poor health, the salary cap would just kill Steinbrenner.

31 Yeah, I'm guessing George is a little too old school for the cap concept, huh? It would have been fun to watch a 'Stein (in his heyday) vs Stern' New York tabloid war on team payroll issues.

And while I gotcha, the Banter is even a better place with your writing, and looking forward to more...

Cliff, maybe you could direct folks to your source on why Torre will not be fired this season? It'd be a public service, both for those who want to see him fired and for those who want to see others shut up about it....

32 Agreed about the writing, always fun to get different perspectives, especially from great writers.

Plus Cliff and Alex are starting to bore me. (just kidding guys)

4 11 I don't know how you can be so sure of that, Cliff. Two more weeks of the same, 11-19, two times through the current rotation, and I'm just not sure the old man doesn't have it in him. After all, every one keeps saying Bossman still pulls the strings. Torre says he talks to him. And one of the hallmarks of dementia is the occasional bouts of lucidity.

I mean would it really be a surprise?

Me, I don't think Torre should be fired, but this season will probably be the end of the run regardless. So for him and Big Stein to both go out to pasture in one last dramatic panic reaction would at least be a fitting conclusion to a storybook Yankee era.

Don't think the basketball banter should appear heeeer. Also, the IM quality of some of the comments wearrrrs. Time consuming and distracting. Can we get back to the game, please.

Yesterday couddda been worse. Damon's arm won't get stronger. Everyone takes extra base. He's broken. Leg. Shoulder. Back. Not leaning into the ball. Looks like he is in constant pain. No help behind him. Melky has 2nd year jinx.

Unusual DP saved a run. Running catch by Abreau. At least some defense. Jorge's PB. He looks tired, early.

As for the Janks, no way to fix what is broken. We saw the problems during the Spring.

I believe in terms of the Banter, the majority thought Stots was a below-average pitching coach (and this was when the Yankees were winning). Over the time of this 'debate', I read 2 extensive analysis pieces that looked at how players did before/with/after Stots, what types of pitchers may have responded better then others, and other factors.

The conclusion of both pieces was that Stots was average to slightly above average. Althought both admitted that due to many unaccountable factors, a 'true' analysis was difficult to do.

I can't really say what linkd of pitching coach Guidry is. Certainly, with injuries, 2007 has given us little to go by. It especially can't be easy when you and a pitcher don't speak the same language.

Here's what my gut, my eyes, and what little common sense about the issue sees:
I think Bowa and Pena has both been great assets to the club.
I don't know what Kerrigan is doing, but he has a lot of experience and is generally well regarded in the MLB community.
Just for what he has done with ARod, Kevin Long gets great marks from me. It can't hurt having Mattingly around either.
Guidry appears to be somewhat 'old school'. You listen to a guy like Lieter, and you know he's analytical. I think both pitching and hitting are indeed 'sciences', and very small changes can make a huge difference in results. My pure speculation is that Gator is not the best guy we could find.
Don Mattingly is one of the most popular Yankees in history. Just seeing him in uniform gives most of us a warm glow. But he had very little involvement in baseball, except for his STs with the Yankees. The Yankees and Torre have been his mentors. I have no idea what kind of 'baseball man' he is, and weather he is a quality hitting coach, bench coach or manager.

Lohud seems to think Mattingly was promised the throne. Maybe that's way Giradi is in the booth. Again, it's pure speculation, but knowledge-wise, I would have to think Mattingly is 'Joe Torre Light'.

Torre had enough respect for Zimmer, that I believe Zimmer influenced a lot of Torre's calls. I wonder if Mattingly can do that. I think Girardi is 'pushy' enough and contrasts Joe's style enough, that he might offer and 'push' is own ideas.

I don't know how to rate Ronny and Donny. I love seeing them in Yankee uniforms, but to me it seems like Yankee nepotism, as opposed to the best man for the job.

I think we are 'stuck with Mattingly' simply because he is so popular with the fan and has so much 'Yankee History' on his side.

Knowing that Torre is great with players and the media, but also knowing his strengths/weaknesses at in-game management, I personally would like to see strong, technically oriented guys as the bench and pitching coaches. Guys who will challenge Torre (in a productive way) and influence the team.

Today, I don't think Cashman and Torre are the story. I believe it is Mattingly and Guidry. with all the resources this team has, should we/could we have really 'high end' guys at these 2 coaching positions?

Frank Torre is undergoing a kidney transplant tomorrow. He's expected back before Pavano.

Sooooo, anyone think Pat Riley should be fired? According to SportCenter, this was the third time his team gets bounced out of the playoffs in the first round, the year after his team won the title.

There's nothing wrong with the team that a dominating start by a pitcher won't cure. To me, it looks like everyone is waiting for that 8/9 inning, 1 R, 2 H, 0 BB, 10K start, so they can all relax with a "ah, it's ok, he's on the mound today."

And what about JD?
Over the years, I have heard Johnny modestly talk about how banged up he was while still playing. But the last story I read had him with more parts hurting then being OK.

He's a talented guy and even hurt, he is at least an 'average' player. Again, I don't remember if you remember his dive/crash if CF some weeks ago, but he really hit the ground hard and awkwardly.

Obviously, he is not hitting now and has a 'power' loss. As bad as Melkdud has been, considering his defense and arm, at this point, I'd like to jive JD a week or so of R&R, and see if Melky steps up. JD could always PH is a pinch.

When you're 'not right' physically, I think you are even more prone to (more serious) injury.

Should Damon be out of the lineup for a while?

38 Does that mean you think Frank should be our pitching coach?
39 Does that mean you think Ron and Don are the best guys for the job?

Injuries are sometimes the players' fault (not preparing correctly) but one would agree the depth is the solution to injuries, which is the GM.
Melky (last year) did a great job when matsui went down... this year - virtual no show.
As a sox fan - well, this is great so far - the key phrase is "so far".
That NY won 5 last august and the sox were down because of injuries and this year, it has flip flopped. Bottom line - it'll go down to the wire.

That Damon signing - not so good, huh? Clearly declining. And still throws like a girl.
Good teammate though.

Seen during this weekend. Micalphabet's homerun - the NY bench. Most went to the railing as it cleared the stands. Except for arod. He remained sitting on the bench.

41 Huh, me? I dunno about Ron & Don. I think they are more Yankee Names, rather than baseball lifers, a la Zim. If I had to choose a successor to Torre, it would be Randolph.

1 For the record, I'd like to point out that the "fire Joe Torre" deadhorse seems to evolve even without my contributions :). Maybe I not entirely responsible for the Banter's new "gloomy" tone after all :)

11 My position has been made clear on the topic and I am also starting to agree it is becoming a tiresome issue, but it sure seems as if Torre's future is at the forefront in the minds of Yankee fans.

6 Not Stengel, Ruth, Rizzuto...the list goes on and on.