Baseball Toaster Bronx Banter
Help
Gut Check
2007-04-29 06:26
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Julio Lugo lined Jeff Kartsen's first pitch off the pitchers' right leg yesterday bringing to mind the lyric, If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all. "You can't print was going through my head and coming out of my mouth at the time that happened," Yankee GM Brian Cashman said after the game (he also added, "0-7 feels like 0-14 in New York"). Kartsens threw five more pitches before giving up a single to Kevin Youkilis and was removed from the game. Turns out the kid has a fractured fibula.

So with no out and two runners on in the first, Kei Igawa entered to face David Ortiz. Not a promising site for the Yankees. But Igawa got Cookie Monster to hit into a double play and pitched into the seventh inning without allowing a run. Brian Bruney, Kyle Karnsworth and Mariano Rivera held the Sox to just one run the rest of the way as the Yanks pulled out tense, hard-earned 3-1 win. Bruney was excellent, Farnsworth not so much. He struck out Manny Ramirez looking, throwing nothing but sliders for strikes. Manny didn't even take the bat off his shoulder. When is the last time you saw that? Coco Crisp was called out on strikes to end the eighth inning. He angrily threw his bat and helmet to the ground and was promptly tossed. Though home plate ump Bruce Froemming called wide strikes equally for both teams, it was hard to blame Crisp for being vexed. He didn't have a chance to do anything with those "strikes."

Jason Varitek got his third hit off of Mariano Rivera this season to start the ninth. But Rivera was helped out by a slick bare-handed play by Alex Rodriguez and held on for the save. After the game, Cliff e-mailed me, "Was that the tensest 9th inning you can remember in a long time or is it me?" He added that the win was "Huge in like 900 ways."

Jorge Posada's two-run homer proved to be the difference. If the Yanks can pull out a win today, it will be a huge relief for New York. If they lose, we're back to fret-con-one.

Comments (394)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-04-29 07:17:04
1.   Jim Dean
My first game in person yesterday and what a game! Gotta say, it was the first time in maybe fifteen years that I walked into Yankee Stadium expecting them to lose - mostly I think because of the pitching matchup. I was thinking about that most of the game both because it bothered me and how lucky we've been over that time.

Quick thanks, Cliff, on the Court Deli photo recommendation - My Dad and I loved it - Pastrami, Dr. Browns - can't beat it.

When Karstens went down, we could only laugh in my section - Loge 26. As soon as Igawa was ready to throw his first pitch, one fellow yelled "Hit him in the face!". It was good to be back at the old ballpark.

Great tense game esp with the Sox fan cheering behind me the whole game. It made each of the DP's from Ortiz even sweeter as the fan was "calling" a HR for his girlfriend. Even better were the six K's from Kei and the Farns K of Manny with the Crisp meltdown as added entertainment. I had a great view of the Melky doink - just in side the line and kicked up a bit of chalk. Also, great view of Arod play in the ninth - really just a phenomenal pickup and throw in one easy motion. Mo made it interesting but he got a huge applause coming in, when he was announced, and on the final out.

Let the good times continue for today. Go Yanks!

2007-04-29 07:25:22
2.   Yu-Hsing Chen
Chien Ming Wang going against Taveraz. first time in awhile we get a matchup that feels comfortablly in our favor.

seriously, Wang Hughes Pettitte Moose, omg we have a rotation!!

2007-04-29 07:34:50
3.   Yu-Hsing Chen
btw, i'm reading some of the M's blogs game day thread last night, abosalutely hilarious (just check out Weaver's line last night)
2007-04-29 08:33:59
4.   Max Nomad
Sorry to be the bearer, but some sad news, folks:

http://tinyurl.com/37egkg

Poor guy pitched in last night's blowout loss, too (and well). I'm going the Stadium today. My hat's off for him.

2007-04-29 08:55:16
5.   yankz
The offense absolutely has to tee off today. Anything less v. Tavarez would be embarassing.
2007-04-29 09:16:36
6.   OldYanksFan
"helped out by a slick bare-handed play by Alex Rodriguez"
I take objection.
That was as good a play on charging a ball as I've seen. Great, fast throw. May have saved the game, as Ortiz would have come up as the winning run.
2007-04-29 09:38:02
7.   Vandelay Industries
6

He has to rip his own arm out and hit a HR with it to make To Plays.

2007-04-29 09:45:14
8.   Vandelay Industries
I am going to see the Lakers knot the series up with the Suns at Staples Center so Ill have to watch on DVR later. Go Wang! I have a good feeling about today.

Keep up the positive Mojo!

2007-04-29 10:02:58
9.   zanderthegreat
2 And Igawa i fhe keeps pitching like that.
2007-04-29 10:13:07
10.   randym77
4 There's more info here:

http://tinyurl.com/2y9f3e

What a tragedy.

2007-04-29 10:13:20
11.   zanderthegreat
Where is everybody. This is a huge Yanks v Sox game, we're supposed to have at least 500 posts.
2007-04-29 10:15:32
12.   rbj
I'm here. Gorgeous day here in Toledo -- I'll be in-n-out with chores all day.

Crud.

2007-04-29 10:16:03
13.   randym77
Who'd have thunk Igawa would keep Big Papi in the infield, while Wanger gave up a homer?
2007-04-29 10:16:53
14.   zanderthegreat
Their hittin him deep. Not a good sign.
2007-04-29 10:16:56
15.   Jim Dean
What were folks saying about the Stadium gun - that it was juiced? Seemed good to me - Farns topped out at 97 and Igawa at 92.
2007-04-29 10:17:12
16.   LI yankee
It's alright, we should pound Tavarez.
2007-04-29 10:17:38
17.   Zack
First inning sinkerball issues for Wang, two batters in a row have teed off on belt high pitches.

Michael Kay seriously had an orgasm when Ortiz hit that ball...

2007-04-29 10:17:52
18.   zanderthegreat
16 meaning we won't.
2007-04-29 10:17:52
19.   claybeez
4 Sad news. Hopefully, the last of its kind for a while.

11 It's early.

2007-04-29 10:18:47
20.   LI yankee
18 Of course we won't
2007-04-29 10:19:15
21.   zanderthegreat
17 Red Sock homers sure seem to cause orgasms.Mut be because they are so rare.
2007-04-29 10:20:22
22.   nyyfan22
18 20 It's nice to know I'm not the only one who feels like he can jinx the yanks by something I do or say...
2007-04-29 10:22:02
23.   OldYanksFan
Theoretically, sinkerball pitchers are more effective when they are a little tired. Plus, this is only Wang's 2nd game of the season.

However, the Sox have a .374 BA against Wang. Manny, after that out, is 9 for 14.

I wish JD was allowed to rest. We can afford to swap a hurting Damon for a healthy Melky.

2007-04-29 10:22:53
24.   zanderthegreat
23 this season or career?
2007-04-29 10:24:23
25.   zanderthegreat
I mean the BA.
2007-04-29 10:25:30
26.   zanderthegreat
Wow, that was pitiful.
2007-04-29 10:26:15
27.   zanderthegreat
Okay, I feel like I'm talking to myself. C'mon everyone!
2007-04-29 10:26:47
28.   Jim Dean
23 Not with Mfhdsjlkh in the lineup.
2007-04-29 10:27:12
29.   zanderthegreat
Anybody home?
2007-04-29 10:28:17
30.   atc
Can we please, please, please, please, please make Ortiz move his feet the next time he comes up.
2007-04-29 10:28:49
31.   randym77
Kay was just talking about how the Sox decided to go with offense instead of defense in trading A-Gon for Lugo.

But A-Gon is en fuego so far this season. I watched a Reds game the other day, and A-Gon had two homers and a double.

Of course, the Reds ballpark is supposed to be a righty hitter's park.

2007-04-29 10:29:42
32.   zanderthegreat
The worms are startng to get scared.
2007-04-29 10:30:43
33.   Zack
great inning Wanger!
2007-04-29 10:31:23
34.   nyyfan22
Now Wang is looking like his old self.

23 Shit - I hope that doesn't mean he's tired already.

2007-04-29 10:32:34
35.   OldYanksFan
24 Career
2007-04-29 10:35:06
36.   OldYanksFan
By the by, Jeter is beginning to pull linedrives to left. Me likey.
2007-04-29 10:37:14
37.   Zack
Arod needs to get back on track! THink hes pressing to get #15? Kidding, kind of
2007-04-29 10:37:41
38.   Zack
Ok, this is Tavarez, lets please jump all over him early and make this a no doubter, please?
2007-04-29 10:39:31
39.   Marcus
Wow, I can't believe we haven't gotten a single hit off Tavarez yet. Not one single hit. Nor a baserunner of any kind.
2007-04-29 10:39:32
40.   LI yankee
We're getting 3-1 and 2-0 counts, yet grounding out each time.
2007-04-29 10:39:32
41.   zanderthegreat
He is shutting us down.... and up.
2007-04-29 10:42:22
42.   zanderthegreat
Dammit!
2007-04-29 10:42:38
43.   rbj
Well, time to mow the lawn.
2007-04-29 10:43:13
44.   LI yankee
Ugh, you knew that was a triple right away.
2007-04-29 10:43:47
45.   Zack
a) how the heck can we let crisp hit a triple
b) why the heck did Bobby let damon pick that ball up?
2007-04-29 10:45:06
46.   zanderthegreat
Susan just pointed out that she isn't Terry Francona. I wish.
2007-04-29 10:46:59
47.   zanderthegreat
Sterling is obbsessing over Coras ground out. It was an RBI ground out, not a RBI double.
2007-04-29 10:48:59
48.   zanderthegreat
If that was melky, he was out.
2007-04-29 10:50:04
49.   zanderthegreat
Sweeeet! Beautiful double play.
2007-04-29 10:50:08
50.   Bob Timmermann
47

Remember Tim Marchman's column about "a good piece of hitting?"

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-04-29 10:50:10
51.   Zack
God, thats two plays now this inning where Damon's arm has hurt us.

Well, looks like Wang's rust is coming to play today and not last start...And if our offense doesn't decide to come out of its hangover, this is a long long sunday afternoon...

2007-04-29 10:50:37
52.   Zack
Wow, Lugo is an idiot!
2007-04-29 10:50:48
53.   LI yankee
Papi = DP King
2007-04-29 10:50:52
54.   randym77
Nice DP!

Maybe this is going to be like that Orioles game, where Wang had something like 9 assists.

2007-04-29 10:50:59
55.   zanderthegreat
John says you can't predict baseball. You can't predict john.

Oh wait, yes you can.

2007-04-29 10:51:29
56.   zanderthegreat
52 Yeah why did he go?
2007-04-29 10:53:11
57.   zanderthegreat
Hey, Mhifjttyx, nice heads up play!
2007-04-29 10:53:26
58.   Zack
Can our offense please wake up now?
2007-04-29 10:54:25
59.   Bob Timmermann
I had the misfortune of watching Lugo last year in L.A.

He's an idiot.

2007-04-29 10:54:49
60.   elwoods
Wow - that was a sharp DP!
2007-04-29 10:55:16
61.   zanderthegreat
Didn't he start that AB 0-2?
2007-04-29 10:56:32
62.   zanderthegreat
Posada should steal!

Kidding, kidding, don't hurt me.

2007-04-29 10:56:51
63.   LI yankee
61 Yeah he's the only one to fall behind, yet got on base.
2007-04-29 10:57:35
64.   OldYanksFan
51 With JD's bat dragging also (he is definitely hurting) and his terrible arm, we are better off with Melky in CF.
2007-04-29 10:57:41
65.   zanderthegreat
Wierd. eight streight
2007-04-29 10:57:46
66.   JeremyM
Boy, Tavarez must be sharp, looks like he has a no-hitter going.
2007-04-29 10:57:53
67.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
31 Lugo's not only a better hitter than A-gon, he's also a better fielder. Replacing Loretta was also a significant upgrade in the infield d, which is the reason the Sawx defensive efficiency this year is vastly better than last.

Of course, maybe Lugo's not the smartest baserunner . . .

2007-04-29 10:58:22
68.   zanderthegreat
nine strine
2007-04-29 10:58:31
69.   Zack
Love to have an auto out to kill a rally...
2007-04-29 10:58:34
70.   LI yankee
No Kay, don't give him ideas. BUNT.
2007-04-29 10:59:53
71.   zanderthegreat
Ten stren
2007-04-29 11:00:21
72.   Zack
Well, Tavarez helped Minky out there!
2007-04-29 11:00:32
73.   zanderthegreat
eleven streven
2007-04-29 11:01:23
74.   zanderthegreat
dang, I was hoping to get to streighteen.
2007-04-29 11:02:15
75.   randym77
W00t! Minky!
2007-04-29 11:02:17
76.   LI yankee
YES!!!
2007-04-29 11:02:34
77.   zanderthegreat
Yeah baby! An A-bomb, from A-Mxyivitch.
2007-04-29 11:02:35
78.   Zack
Dougy m! Man, now hes got another month at least
2007-04-29 11:02:45
79.   3rd gen yankee fan
WHAT!
2007-04-29 11:02:49
80.   JeremyM
Well, how do you like that? The sun is shining today, and Doug is the dog's ass I guess!
2007-04-29 11:02:59
81.   thelarmis
OMG, i doesn't believe it! scrabble with a triple word score!
2007-04-29 11:03:17
82.   Yu-Hsing Chen
lol i was so calling for it .

Flash : a productive a bat blah blah

me: and he'll probably hit a 3 run shot.

2007-04-29 11:03:27
83.   vockins
That HR cost the Yanks three games.
2007-04-29 11:03:48
84.   its430
Looks like somebody has a job through July.
2007-04-29 11:05:31
85.   Jim Dean
81 Very nice.

Cashman is brill-ant!

2007-04-29 11:05:42
86.   zanderthegreat
Hey, there's cool racing on T.V. I think i'll watch that instead.

Wait, racing is extremely boring, and this game is really exciting. Let me think about this...

2007-04-29 11:06:56
87.   LI yankee
Jeez do we have a new GOB? Ghost of Bobby?
2007-04-29 11:07:12
88.   Yu-Hsing Chen
one hit 3 run, gotta love it when the luck start turning to ur favor
2007-04-29 11:07:33
89.   OldYanksFan
That shot might have put Minky over-the-top for the HOF.
Abreu now 1 for 28. Time for a day off.
2007-04-29 11:08:38
90.   zanderthegreat
89 He's a shoo-in now.
2007-04-29 11:08:53
91.   Zack
Well, we do have tomorrow off...

But bobby and giambi should perhaps switch places for a bit?

2007-04-29 11:09:48
92.   zanderthegreat
6-1 in hits, but who cares! Runs count.
2007-04-29 11:11:20
93.   JL25and3
That was one of the stranger double plays I've ever seen.
2007-04-29 11:11:27
94.   Zack
The patented Wang DP!
2007-04-29 11:11:31
95.   zanderthegreat
What happened there? Could't understand John and Susan
2007-04-29 11:11:52
96.   Jim Dean
There's way too much negativity here. Please turn those frowns upsidedown.
2007-04-29 11:11:58
97.   Zack
93 Well, it did involve Manny, who is one of the stranger players I've ever seen...
2007-04-29 11:12:32
98.   OldYanksFan
Manny is the running coach for the Bad News Bears.
2007-04-29 11:12:59
99.   LI yankee
95 Hinske hit it to Cano, Manny stopped on the basepath and Cano charged him but right before he got to him, Cano threw it to first. Minky then charged Manny who was still stationary and he never moved.
2007-04-29 11:13:20
100.   zanderthegreat
96 Hey, that makes a smile! ;)
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-04-29 11:14:37
101.   zanderthegreat
98 Yeah it was in the credits. It said " Some moron" for the running coach.
2007-04-29 11:15:30
102.   JL25and3
97 True, that.
2007-04-29 11:15:46
103.   Yu-Hsing Chen
5 hits a walk in 4 innings but only 42 pitche and 2 runs, only Wang can do that.
2007-04-29 11:15:52
104.   OldYanksFan
Manny on first.
Ground ball to Cano.
Manny run towards Cano and stops.
Cano tries to tag but cant.
Manny ducks, but stays on his feet, as Cano throws to 1st. One Out.
Manny now in rundown.
Minky runs at Manny.
Manny does liitle to get away.
Minky tags Manny out without even one throw.
Many decides trying to beat the rundown might lead to injury, so he goes quietly.
2007-04-29 11:17:13
105.   OldYanksFan
Finally. ARod breaks the slump.
2007-04-29 11:17:45
106.   LI yankee
Jeter would have gotten that...
2007-04-29 11:18:26
107.   Bob Timmermann
Actually Ramirez did about as well as he could on the DP, by Manny Ramirez standards. The runner on first isn't supposed to let the second baseman tag him.

So Ramirez did that. He just didn't bother with running hard to second, but he would have been out most likely anyway.

2007-04-29 11:18:32
108.   zanderthegreat
I'm glad the Red Sox have that all-star defense. Lowell, Lugo, and the leader, Ortiz. (Who doesn't play defense but was still a star last year. That still bothers me)
2007-04-29 11:20:00
109.   zanderthegreat
ANOTHER scoring chance. We're getting those alot lately.
2007-04-29 11:21:08
110.   OldYanksFan
I believe Lowell and Lugo are above average on D. Anybody got any stats on these 2?
2007-04-29 11:21:21
111.   zanderthegreat
Seems like once a batter has seen Tavarez, he is much easier to hit.
2007-04-29 11:21:36
112.   LI yankee
I feel a Minky grand slam coming up, giving him 3 more years.
2007-04-29 11:22:28
113.   LI yankee
or not
2007-04-29 11:22:52
114.   Zack
damn dp
2007-04-29 11:25:09
115.   zanderthegreat
Lowell got two more errors yesterday and has 8, 2 more than all of last year.
2007-04-29 11:25:22
116.   Zack
We are doing exactly what we did yesterday on O...Lots of guys on, letting the pitcher wiggle in and out of jams without too much damage, all things considered. Lets knock him out!
2007-04-29 11:25:47
117.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
110 Lugo RATE at ss (2007/career)113/102; Lowell at 3rd 82/108
2007-04-29 11:27:21
118.   zanderthegreat
Lowell is doing much worse than A-Rod last year fielding-wise, yet there is alot less hype here in Rhode Island. Interesting, very intersting.
2007-04-29 11:28:06
119.   LI yankee
118 You should alert the masses.
2007-04-29 11:28:08
120.   JL25and3
107 The first part of the play was fine. But as soon as Cano throws the ball, he should at least make it look like he's running towards second. He was halfway to second - but the first baseman ran after him and tagged him without a throw. That's pretty pathetic.
2007-04-29 11:28:42
121.   LI yankee
Wasn't that technically a swing?
2007-04-29 11:28:56
122.   zanderthegreat
How many hit yankees by sox pitchers? And vice versa? Again, interesting.
2007-04-29 11:31:11
123.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
118 in April Sawx fans are desperate to believe they have the greatest team ever -- see all the crowing about their supposed best ever defense last season, which ended up finishing practically last in mlb in fielding efficiency. The same applies this year to Lowell, and to their starting pitching.

Once they fall behind us in August, then they start tearing their team apart.

2007-04-29 11:31:23
124.   Zack
Gross, why we needed to score those wasted runners...
2007-04-29 11:31:23
125.   rbj
Dang -- looks like I missed Minky's 3 run homer because I was out mowing the lawn.

Crud.

Well, now I have to do the trim and kill the weeds. Sure would hate to miss anything more, such as an A-Rod grand slam.

2007-04-29 11:31:35
126.   mikeplugh
Can we get a decent start from someone for God's sake?
2007-04-29 11:31:45
127.   Jim Dean
110 Go to Baseball prospectus and see their DT cards for RATE2.

Lowell
109 Career RATE2 (9 runs above average)
79 RATE2 this year so far (8 errors)

Lugo
103 Career RATE2 (3 runs above average)
115 RATE2 this year so far

2007-04-29 11:32:00
128.   zanderthegreat
Why can't I get that monkey?
2007-04-29 11:32:25
129.   Orly Yarly NoWai
What's the score?
2007-04-29 11:32:39
130.   mikeplugh
A home run to Alex Cora is unacceptable.
2007-04-29 11:32:57
131.   3rd gen yankee fan
Dudes this starting pitching is BS. This is really starting to piss me off.
2007-04-29 11:33:24
132.   mikeplugh
4-3 Boston (Top 5)
2007-04-29 11:33:51
133.   Orly Yarly NoWai
132 Thanks; is the game on anywhere but YES?
2007-04-29 11:33:53
134.   LI yankee
At least his pitch count isn't too high. He can probably go 7.
2007-04-29 11:34:56
135.   mikeplugh
133 Gameday and NHK in 5.5 hours, otherwise no idea
2007-04-29 11:35:05
136.   ric
130

cora and dougie m. both...

see, and thats why hitting players stinks. free rides that can bit you in the ass...

2007-04-29 11:35:40
137.   zanderthegreat
Youk gets on alot. We need someone like that. Like an unslumping Abreu.
2007-04-29 11:36:37
138.   OldYanksFan
127 So Lowell is well above average, but having a bad year.
Lugo is a little above average, but having a good year.

ARod has 3 errors this year, all very questionable, inckuding yesterdays. They gave Lowell an error yesterday on a backhand shorthop (hit by Jeter). Official scorers are all over the place.

2007-04-29 11:37:58
139.   Simone
126 mikeplugh, apparently not, such is the state of the Yankees' starting rotation.
2007-04-29 11:38:00
140.   zanderthegreat
That was an easy DP. John sounded so sure of it.
2007-04-29 11:38:14
141.   LI yankee
Thanks YES for having 2 outs there
2007-04-29 11:38:40
142.   Yu-Hsing Chen
strange things happen in baseball when Cora and Mink can homer in the same game
2007-04-29 11:39:15
143.   mikeplugh
139 I'm so sick about it Simone, I'm up at 3:30am watching gameday in my dark living room.
2007-04-29 11:40:48
144.   zanderthegreat
I feel we'll get some runs this inning.
2007-04-29 11:43:18
145.   Simone
143 You are in for a long day at work, Mike. Let us hope that the Yankees' offense can score some desperately needed runs. Oh, how did Japan react to Igawa's triumph yesterday?
2007-04-29 11:43:37
146.   randym77
Mike, how's Aaron Guiel doing in Japan?
2007-04-29 11:43:44
147.   LI yankee
That was...interesting
2007-04-29 11:45:09
148.   Bob Timmermann
Again, checking in as an impartial observer, but wouldn't the ideal outcome to Mientkiewicz's ground out would have been for Tavarez to be knocked over, allowing Mientkiewicz to reach safely, and yet injuring both Tavarez and Mientkiewicz?

I think that wouldn't just be win-win, it would be win-win-win.

2007-04-29 11:45:12
149.   zanderthegreat
I'mmm dumb.
2007-04-29 11:46:23
150.   Bob Timmermann
Aaron Guiel is batting .222 in the early going for the Yakult Swallows. He homered yesterday.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-04-29 11:46:25
151.   zanderthegreat
[148} Cringe. You just used his name!
2007-04-29 11:46:52
152.   justin
143 Mike, you got a friend over here in HK.. though I've got it slightly better, at least I am watching it on mlb.tv and it's 2:45am here
2007-04-29 11:46:58
153.   Yu-Hsing Chen
143 2:48 am in Taiwan with the whole country up heh

Still though, at least Wang's pretty efficent so far, so we might acutally finish this game without trottnig out the entire bullpen for once. amazing.

2007-04-29 11:47:32
154.   mikeplugh
Johnny Damon needs to sit out a week and get his body right. He's murdering us right now. With him at the top of the lineup hitting in the .230s and Abreu on the other side of Jeter stinking it up, we can't even hit Julian Tavarez. How about moving every hitter up one spot, leading off Jeter, and playing Melky. Melky's been bad too, but at least we're sure he's healthy.
2007-04-29 11:48:15
155.   vockins
148 That would have been incredible.
2007-04-29 11:48:23
156.   zanderthegreat
Hope we can Tevarez is done. Get to the juicy bullpen.
2007-04-29 11:48:39
157.   Bob Timmermann
151
My profound apologies.
2007-04-29 11:48:44
158.   mikeplugh
145 No work. It's "Golden Week" in Japan, so only baseball for me! Hooray! Uh....and whatever the Yankees are playing today too. Uh...hooray?
2007-04-29 11:49:29
159.   zanderthegreat
Makes an exceptional catch!
2007-04-29 11:51:10
160.   Bob Timmermann
Aaron Guiel is batting .222, but his OBP is .417 thanks to 18 walks.
2007-04-29 11:52:47
161.   mikeplugh
160 Yeah. Yakult has been batting him leadoff and put Aoki at #3.
2007-04-29 11:53:30
162.   zanderthegreat
Ever notice gun powder smells a little like fish? Specifically, locs.
2007-04-29 11:54:40
163.   Bob Timmermann
I'm guessing that "Aaron Guiel" is a name that sounds completely unrecognizable when read by a Japanese PA announcer.
2007-04-29 11:56:07
164.   mikeplugh
Ha. Gayooroo is a tough one. Often the announcers choose first or last name according to how easy one is to pronounce. I'm guessing Eh-rone is easier.
2007-04-29 11:57:25
165.   zanderthegreat
My venus flycatchers aren't growing. >(
2007-04-29 11:57:53
166.   randym77
160 Thanks. Leadoff, eh? Last I heard they were planning to bat him fifth.
2007-04-29 12:00:21
167.   randym77
I don't think "Guiel" would be too hard to pronounce. Probably something like "GAI-ru."
2007-04-29 12:01:48
168.   mikeplugh
166 They've moved him around, but Norichika Aoki has busted out and is hitting around .402/.520/.650 to start the first month of baseball and they had to move him from the leadoff spot to #3. Guiel gets on base and I suppose that works.
2007-04-29 12:02:43
169.   LI yankee
So should the steal sign be put on here?
2007-04-29 12:03:48
170.   mikeplugh
167 Yeah. It's not too hard, but it sounds bizarre nonetheless. You have to think he will hit for power, but not average over here. He's a dead fastball hitter, and the fastballs tend to be a little flat. The offspeed stuff, especially the amount of good sliders you get will hurt him.
2007-04-29 12:04:34
171.   Yu-Hsing Chen
how did we manage to only get 3 hits off Taverez?
2007-04-29 12:06:52
172.   bartap74
What the hell is Abreu doing? Is he hurt?
2007-04-29 12:07:04
173.   mikeplugh
F-ing Joe Torre and his bunting.
2007-04-29 12:07:41
174.   LI yankee
Wow if Torre is putting this on...
2007-04-29 12:08:53
175.   LI yankee
Seriously, GOB 2.0
2007-04-29 12:08:54
176.   mikeplugh
Take a struggling All Star, ask him to bunt, watch him miss twice, slip him deeper into a funk by having him fan. Genius Joe at his best.
2007-04-29 12:09:10
177.   randym77
170 Doesn't sound that odd to me. But that may be because of too much Japanese TV in my misspent youth. I remember the villain in my favorite show was "Professor Gill." Which in Japanese was "Giiru Hakase." :-)

I hope 'ol Ralph Malph does well over there. He seemed like a really nice guy. And he certainly put his time in, with ten years in the minors.

2007-04-29 12:09:46
178.   Hocakes
What a complete waste of an at-bat by Abreu.
2007-04-29 12:11:11
179.   LI yankee
So much for A-Rod slumping
2007-04-29 12:13:35
180.   OldYanksFan
154 Agree 100%, although with Cano slumping, it's hard to play with the lineup.

Jeter
Matsui
ARod
Giambi
Posada
Abreu
Cano
Minky
Melky

2007-04-29 12:13:45
181.   bartap74
Tbe broadcast team seems convinced that the bunt was Abreu's doing, not Torre's. If it was Joe, then he really shouldn't be managing this team.
2007-04-29 12:15:07
182.   OldYanksFan
Jeeeeeeeeeez...
We just can't get a clutch hit.
Boston is handing us this game, and we refuse to take it.
2007-04-29 12:15:35
183.   nick
time to hit this guy, Yanks!
2007-04-29 12:16:07
184.   OldYanksFan
181 I honestly do not believe Torre would 'insult' Abreu by having him bunt. This the the 4th AB Abreu has tried to bunt.
2007-04-29 12:18:12
185.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
We finally start to get some decent pitching, and we forget how to hit.
2007-04-29 12:18:18
186.   mikeplugh
This is torture.
2007-04-29 12:19:48
187.   randym77
Cy Okajima. Who needs Matsuzaka?
2007-04-29 12:19:54
188.   thelarmis
proctor vs. red sox. the torture is about to begin, i'm afraid... : /
2007-04-29 12:20:09
189.   Orly Yarly NoWai
Score now?
2007-04-29 12:20:26
190.   Orly Yarly NoWai
Never mind; Proctor's coming in...
2007-04-29 12:20:31
191.   mikeplugh
Of course EDSP gets the call.
2007-04-29 12:21:03
192.   mikeplugh
4-3 Boston (Top 7)
2007-04-29 12:21:34
193.   ny2ca2dc
Wang on a pitch count? or maybe he's getting blisters or something else physical (remember the trainer's visit to the mound)...

damn though; he could'a at least pitched the 7th..

2007-04-29 12:22:00
194.   thelarmis
wang was supposedly on a 90-95 pitch count. he finished with 84. i think he could've started this inning, try to get a coupla quick outs.

then again, with the way our pen is right now, it might not be wise to bring them in with runners on if wang had gotten in trouble.

we really needed to score last inning.

we best feast on two solid weeks of texas and seattle...

2007-04-29 12:22:57
195.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Oh no, Proctor.

Do you think Torre has ever seen Proctor's stats vs Boston?

2007-04-29 12:23:58
196.   bartap74
'Roid check on Cora, please.
2007-04-29 12:23:59
197.   ny2ca2dc
194 really; the last couple games have been really frustrating with not getting runners in.

Alex Cora, power hitter. WTF

2007-04-29 12:24:06
198.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
And so it begins . . . another winnable game tossed away.
2007-04-29 12:24:17
199.   mikeplugh
Scott Proctor is Tanyon Sturtze 2007. His arm is finished.
2007-04-29 12:25:06
200.   randym77
Well, at least Abreu went all the way to the wall, which he didn't do last year.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-04-29 12:25:19
201.   williamnyy23
There is no longer a defense for Torre. Wang only had 84 pitches and could have gone more. The next time someone complains the starters aren't giving innings, please explain away this bonehead decision!
2007-04-29 12:26:47
202.   mikeplugh
R.I.P. EDSP's right arm. We once loved you. New ERA 5.27 and counting.
2007-04-29 12:28:16
203.   JL25and3
I would have thought the top priority for the game would have been getting the most possible out of Wang. Most of the bullpen could have had three days of rest. There certainly wasn't any need to get Proctor an inning of work...

And omg, I hate Shrek.

2007-04-29 12:28:27
204.   williamnyy23
If yesterday's win saved Torre's job, then it worse than a loss.
2007-04-29 12:29:55
205.   JL25and3
195 I think Proctor's stats against Boston are overplayed. Before last year he sucked against everybody, so it doesn't really count. Last year, he had two frightful appearances against them - close together - but was fine the rest of the time.

Manny really kills him, though.

2007-04-29 12:31:05
206.   Yu-Hsing Chen
just can't say much about a game when Alex Cora and his punch and judy swing somehow managed to hit it to the wall twice, I thought this was YS and not Arlington. yeesh
2007-04-29 12:31:41
207.   williamnyy23
205 The stats are one the thing...the fact that this is now game 15 for SP is another. Torre is going to the bullpen out of necessity. He is going to the bullpen out of pure incompetence.
2007-04-29 12:33:24
208.   OldYanksFan
201 Yesterday was easy on the BP and tomorrow is an off-day. Torre is trying to win today. Mo's stats against the Sox are bad too. How big is the sample size for Proctor against the Sox?
2007-04-29 12:33:32
209.   mikeplugh
This game is looking late early. I F-ing hate the Red Sox.
2007-04-29 12:35:21
210.   JL25and3
Apropos of our conversation the other day: I know it's a game thread, but I still think "pure incompetence" is awfully harsh. I also happen to think it's a terrible move, but he may know things we don't. I have trouble thinking that he's incompetent, or that I'm more competent than he is.
2007-04-29 12:36:56
211.   mikeplugh
Okaji is unhittable. Good night Yankees. Maybe next year. How can this team be THIS bad?
2007-04-29 12:37:51
212.   mikeplugh
Frustrating is an understatement for this season. When will they turn it around?
2007-04-29 12:38:13
213.   Simone
201 You and that dead horse. Here is an obvious explanation: Wang just came off the DL. Your railing against Joe doesn't change the fact Yankees' starters are beat up and injured.
2007-04-29 12:38:31
214.   OldYanksFan
207 That is a statement out of pure prejudice. Wang gave up 4 ERs on 6 hits and 3 BB in 6. He was 1 or 2 batters away from his limit in his 2nd start of the year. Going to the BP here, with tomorrow an off-day is not unreasonable.

It is possible to disagree with Torre's moves without calling him incompetence?

2007-04-29 12:39:43
215.   Simone
211 Well, the starting rotation didn't look good before the season started.
2007-04-29 12:41:03
216.   OldYanksFan
210 Yes... we, the fans, are not privy to many things happening on the field, or Kerrigan's or Guidry's input. Most of us would probably be less 'competent' then Torre. Only a very few, special people here would be, from their living rooms, a more 'competent' manager then Torre.
2007-04-29 12:41:46
217.   mikeplugh
215 Maybe, but no one on this planet imagined that it would be this bad. This is minor league stuff here.
2007-04-29 12:42:07
218.   williamnyy23
208 Mo has a 3.19 ERA agains the Sox in 84 innings. You call those bad stats? Prcotor against Boston (26 innings) hasn't been bad...he's been awful!! Oh, and that's before mentioned that Proctor is up to 15 games! FIFTEEN!

If Torre is trying to win today, you leave Wang in.

210I'm sorry you are sensitive about that term, but I think it is 100% accurate. Lifting Wang is one thing, but even if he does have a Blister, bringing in Proctor is inexusable. I'm sorry...Torre's decisions have smacked of incompetence this year. Whether you and I are more competent is not the issue.

2007-04-29 12:43:21
219.   mikeplugh
Joe has been pretty bad so far this year. He's done some very stupid things. I don't think you can fire him though. I think you CAN fire Ron Guidry though. I'm just not sure a team can pitch this poorly for a month and keep the pitching coach, who has almost no experience.
2007-04-29 12:44:15
220.   its430
Bye Torre.
2007-04-29 12:44:30
221.   mikeplugh
Good night everyone. I wasted an entire morning of my life. Ugh.
2007-04-29 12:44:32
222.   OldYanksFan
210 No Will, it is NOT 100% accurate. It IS 100% your opinion. One opinion in about 100+ million baseball fans worldwide.

Rather then your opinion, why not poll as the other fans, and then post the results?

2007-04-29 12:45:07
223.   Yu-Hsing Chen
losing streak here we go again arragh
2007-04-29 12:45:37
224.   williamnyy23
219 Why can't you fire him? Because he's Joe? If we are playing favorites...then let's bring Bernie back.

This game didn't have to get away...poor bullpen management is the underlying theme of every loss. Unless Gator is making the call on pitching changes (and running for Giambi, batting DM 2nd, etc), then Torre has to take the fall.

2007-04-29 12:45:57
225.   bartap74
10 straight games with 5 or more pitchers. Scary.
2007-04-29 12:46:32
226.   Simone
219 Funny you bring up Guidry. I was just thinking that if Mel was still here that he would be the one being ripped left, right and center because every pitcher's struggles was due to his incompetence. How come hardly anyone is blaming Guidry?
2007-04-29 12:47:07
227.   nick
if our bullpen isn't SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than theirs, we're not likely to beat them for the division title. to beat my fave dead horse, people had our bullpen as a major strength pre-season. i still think Mo will be fine, but the overall sense of our pen looks way over-optimistic right now....
2007-04-29 12:47:53
228.   nick
...and if Joe keeps looking for an excuse to pull our starters after 80 pitches, we're fucked.
2007-04-29 12:48:55
229.   bartap74
As if things weren't bad enough, Murcer is on his way back to the booth. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's recovered, but I really hate having to listen to him.
2007-04-29 12:49:29
230.   williamnyy23
222 Ok...so if I go through your posts, I'm sure I'll find you only state facts? I though giving opinions was the point?

I've given a lot of support to my claim...can you refute it? If you can show me why bringing in Proctor made sense, I'm all ears. If you simply don't want to critize Joe, well, I'm sorry, but I put the team winning ahead of warm feelings I have for Joe.

2007-04-29 12:51:00
231.   randym77
Murcer's coming back? When? I like him. :-)
2007-04-29 12:51:46
232.   seamus
224 Why do you debate that way? He made a point that he didn't think firing Torre was the right thing to do. I don't know that I agree, but it is a legitimate position to take. It doesn't mean that he is "playing favorites".
2007-04-29 12:51:53
233.   Zack
So, just checking back in. Why did Joe pull Wang after 6?

And youknow things are bad when Tavarez holds us to 3 runs and 4 hits in a game we pretty much HAD to win and were set up to win.

2007-04-29 12:52:43
234.   nick
and Joe brings in Bruney....no doubt he needed the work. amazing...
2007-04-29 12:52:57
235.   OldYanksFan
219 Mike... It's been 22 games. I really don't know what to think, but I feel the players themselves must be more responsible for their performance then the coaches.

I however, do not know if Guidry is a good coach. He's a popular guy, but doesn't seem to be into the 'science' of pitching. Kerrigan however, is supposed to be very good. I'm sure he has plenty of input, and that Guidry relies on him.

Do we fire Guidry and Kerrigan? Throw in Torre also? Maybe Cashman, so they can get a group rate to the Bahamas? I honestly don't know. I don't really have an opinion.

Oops... Crap! Is Henn a shitty pitcher now? Joe's fault for bringing him in?

But I do know it is human nature to scapegoat somebody. We love to see somebody swing on a rope to make us feel better.

2007-04-29 12:53:25
236.   seamus
230 I think folks have already pointed out that Wang was on a pitch count. So you already have the rationale for pulling Wang.
2007-04-29 12:54:52
237.   williamnyy23
232 Mike didn't make an argument...here's what he said:

"Joe has been pretty bad so far this year. He's done some very stupid things. I don't think you can fire him though. "

I'm asking why?? If you concede that he's been pretty bad, why CAN'T you fire him?

2007-04-29 12:55:39
238.   JL25and3
230 Stating your opinion is fine. Saying you think Joe has been making some terrible moves and should be fired is also fine. Saying he's incompetent - and that anyone who disagrees with you is just playing favorites - is less so, and it's become damn tedious.
2007-04-29 12:55:56
239.   nick
right now, we can't hit their marginal guys; their marginal hitters kill us. right now, it looks terrible. people are entitled to bitch. this was our arguable #1 against their fill-in temporary #5. not pretty. not pretty at all.
2007-04-29 12:56:37
240.   seamus
237 No, that is NOT what you did. You did NOT ask why. You asserted it was because he was playing favorite. Yet now you are saying he didn't make an argument. Fine, but then where did you conclude that he was playing favorites? You are not debating, but arguing for arguments sake when you do that.
2007-04-29 12:56:43
241.   williamnyy23
236 Want was 10 pitches below his count...he already retired an inning on 6 pitches. Even if he gets one more out, that's valuable.

Also, just because Joe/Guidy put Wang on a pitch count doesn't mean it makes sense.

2007-04-29 12:58:12
242.   seamus
241 fine. debate that point. but don't claim that others haven't stated their positions when they clearly have. I'm not debating the issue with you. I'm just annoyed that you are dominating this thread with your posts and not listening to what others are saying.
2007-04-29 13:00:16
243.   OldYanksFan
Abreu is 1 for 29.
Damon is batting under .230
I can't remember Cano's last hit.
Jeter only has 4 Xtra-base hits.

While our offense, in general, is not the problem, I can only wonder what our RISP in when we are behind. We are blowing many, many scoring opportunities.

2007-04-29 13:01:16
244.   williamnyy23
240 Oh please...give me a break. If someone says we CAN'T fire Joe even though he has been "pretty stupid" and "bad", what would the reason be? If one makes such a contradictory statement, then it leaves the reader to draw their own conclusions.
2007-04-29 13:01:42
245.   OldYanksFan
Make that FIVE extra-base hits.
I like it when Jeter pulls the ball more often.
2007-04-29 13:02:12
246.   seamus
243 we have definitely been slumping at the plate. Don't forget how bad Minky is hitting (though not a surprise) and Melky. Even Matsui is struggling. It is frustrating, but we'll work through it.

Go Jetes!

2007-04-29 13:02:25
247.   thelarmis
make that 5 xbh! : )
2007-04-29 13:02:52
248.   Zack
Our offense has been the problem since the second tampa game. Granted, so has the pitching, but our offense has not produced more than 4 runs a game since then, which is okay, but they have been stranding opportunities left and right...
2007-04-29 13:02:54
249.   seamus
244 I can think of a gazilliion reasons. The point is that you are making assumptions which is not appropriate or constructive.
2007-04-29 13:05:51
250.   OldYanksFan
244 OK. If we ALL agree you ARE RIGHT, and Torre SHOULD BE FIRED, would you then promise to never bring it up again?

Wait... I'll be fair. You can say it once every other game day (as opposed to 3 to 5 times every single thread? Deal? We ALL agree and you drop it?

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-04-29 13:07:54
251.   seamus
longshot with arod getting that out. He has been hitting a lot of groundballs now. He was bound to hit a small cold spot.
2007-04-29 13:10:43
252.   williamnyy23
242 When you find Mike's reasoning for not being able to fie Joe, let me know.

Also, when someone makes a credible defense for why EVERY yankee reliever needs to work EVERY day, I'll listen up.

2007-04-29 13:10:47
253.   yankee23
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I just went to yankees.com, where the headline reads: "Mientkiewicz leading Yanks offense vs. Sox"... and I almost cried.
2007-04-29 13:13:21
254.   BklynBmr
250 Reminds me of the Chris Rock bit, "Shut the F Up": "Remember the time... YEAH, I REMEMBER THE TIME! Stop tellin' me the same sh*t over and over and over again. Why don't you go out and get kidnapped and have some new sh*t to talk about!..."
2007-04-29 13:13:30
255.   seamus
Good job by Viz. so glad that day of rest is coming...
2007-04-29 13:14:23
256.   yankz
Just got back, what the hell happened? I hate Papelbitch.
2007-04-29 13:15:06
257.   williamnyy23
250 You can post as you see fit and I'll do the same. Torre's status as Yankee manager is the biggest issue with the team...if you aren't interested in it, that's your perogative.
2007-04-29 13:17:11
258.   randym77
I'm with Ken Arnesan. We have to agree what the dead horses are, and agree to avoid them. These threads just become unbearably boring and/or unpleasant otherwise.
2007-04-29 13:17:18
259.   OldYanksFan
252 For one, I believe firing Joe, after 10 days of failed offense and an entire season of poor and INJURED SP, would upset the players.

I don't THINK (opinion, not necessarily fact) the players blame Torre. I think they would blame themselves. I think the players are dedicated to Torre. I think his firing would greatly upset the majority of the players.

And it would also depend on who replaces him. Mattingly is not qualified. Girardi is good, but the players may not respond to his style.

It would also generate WEEKS and MONTHS of media speculation, interviews and gossip. It could be VERY distracting.

2007-04-29 13:17:38
260.   seamus
Nice hit by Jason! I love seeing that of of papelbitch!
2007-04-29 13:18:14
261.   yankz
A bloop and a bomb...
2007-04-29 13:19:52
262.   yankz
Posada walks, Cano singles, Stink with the walk-off job.
2007-04-29 13:20:14
263.   JeremyM
So far Matsui's extension has been a disaster, I know he can't help the injuries, but still. But I would've extended him too.
2007-04-29 13:20:28
264.   yankz
I was thinking, could the Coddmeyer/Abreu connection be true? Abreu slumps, so does A-Rod. Maybe he is the key?
2007-04-29 13:22:07
265.   Simone
258 I agree with Ken also, but the people who beat the damn dead horse won't stop. What can be done about that?
2007-04-29 13:22:08
266.   seamus
264 I think that in general, players do respond to what the other guys around them are doing. The more that players slump around you the more likely you are trying too hard to make up for that.
2007-04-29 13:22:17
267.   yankz
Jeter has hit in 56/58 games. Holy shit!!!
2007-04-29 13:22:45
268.   yankz
Dammit.
2007-04-29 13:22:48
269.   BklynBmr
256 What happened? Torre grounded into 2 DPs, left three runners on base, couldn't figure out Alex Cora, and left one over the plate for Manny. Everyone else did their job today...
2007-04-29 13:23:33
270.   Simone
267 I didn't know that. Good stuff.
2007-04-29 13:23:51
271.   seamus
265 that is ultimately the question. I wouldn't care if it was good reasoned debate, but it isn't. It is "I am right, I am right, I am right. You are wrong, you are wrong, you are wrong. You must be in love with player _______."
2007-04-29 13:24:44
272.   randym77
265 If the blog owners won't do anything, we just have to ignore them. Responding only encourages them.
2007-04-29 13:24:51
273.   seamus
well. that was frustrating. got to go do dishes. enjoy the days off. Maybe that will help the team reorient itself.
2007-04-29 13:25:28
274.   AbbyNormal821
RE: Conversation title (Gut Check)...
I have checked my gut, and I feel naseous.

BLECH!

2007-04-29 13:26:54
275.   yankz
When will Proctor stop pitching against the Sox unless absolutely necessary?
2007-04-29 13:31:39
276.   Simone
272 For now anyway. A couple years ago, I used to post on the MLB Yankees board. It full of fun Yankee fans who were pretty knowledgeable about baseball and then there was an influx of annoying posters which resulted in the board deteriorating. Most of the fun people ended up fleeing for other places to chat about the game. Just pointing out that the worse can happen.
2007-04-29 13:32:46
277.   randym77
Proctor's been Sturtzed.

Well, maybe the Yanks will beat up on Texas and Seattle, and right the ship.

I dunno, this looks like the postseason last year. Everyone's over-anxious.

2007-04-29 13:33:13
278.   OldYanksFan
Look... Henn has been very good, but gave up a 2 run run blast.
Viz has been very bad but went 3 up, 3 down.
It is VERY hard to anticipate what a RP, who is generally considered a good pitcher, will do in any one appearance.

I will put 20% of the "Bad Boy" on Joe for uninspired BP management. I will put the other 80% on the players, who seem to all have skyrocketing ERAs.

To some extent, Joe should be able to call almost anyone out of the BP and get better results then he has.

2007-04-29 13:36:07
279.   williamnyy23
275 Shhh...be positive.

276 Yikes...I think you're taking yourself a little too seriously. I am not sure what you define as knowledgable, but I know there are a lot of people posting with serious concerns about Torre. I don't care whether you participate in the debate or not, but please don't pretend you have a moral high ground because you are "positive". This is a game thread and all decisions are open to criticism...even the ones that Joe makes.

2007-04-29 13:37:04
280.   Mattpat11
277 When people say someone has been "Sturtzed" do they just forget that Tanyon Sturtze was an awful pitcher that was awful before he got here, awful for his entire run with the Yankees, and will be awful again, or do they just love going LOL TORRE SUXORZ
2007-04-29 13:37:06
281.   JeremyM
Pitching woes aside, Matsui, Abreu, and Damon are all hitting like crap. There is no reason that Tavarez shouldn't have been torched today. And Papelbon and Okajima, quite frankly, have owned the Yanks all season. So far, Okajima is looking like a steal for them.
2007-04-29 13:37:51
282.   randym77
276 Yup. As Ken pointed out, it's a natural outgrowth of success. What worked on a small board won't work on a large, busy one. Every successful site has to deal with this problem eventually. Peter Abraham laid down the law at his blog. Just about every successful site has to do that eventually, one way or another.
2007-04-29 13:40:19
283.   williamnyy23
278 If you think my question is a dead horse, please ignore it, but what percentage blame do you think is acceptable? Should a manager be responsible for 20% of the blame? Is that too much or just rght?

My opinion is not that the players shouldn't be responsible, but that the manager needs to help out when the players aren't firing on all cyclinders.

2007-04-29 13:43:22
284.   JL25and3
252 This isn't the first time you've been far too literal in interpreting off-the-cuff phrases. I think Mike meant that he thinks it's uncalled-for to fire Joe 22 games in, when there are huge problems that have nothing to do with his management.

But of course, it's wrong to say you "can't" fire him. It's like saying, "you can't keep hammering the same point into the ground in a way that precludes all possibility of debate and denigrates anyone who disagrees," because of course you can.

2007-04-29 13:44:19
285.   JL25and3
280 I prefer to use the verb "quantrilled."
2007-04-29 13:46:51
286.   nick
bullpens don't die from mishandling in April; they wear down in the summer......as much as I dislike Joe's handling of the pen, it's just as legit to think maybe these guys aren't as good as we were told. I mean, aside from Mo, any of these guys could be terrible and we wouldn't have the right to be surprised: they're middle relievers, they're at the bottom of the food chain, talent wise. a good GM can come up with middle relievers off the junk heap; a bad one gives Kyle Farnsworth a lot of $.....
2007-04-29 13:47:46
287.   JL25and3
279 No one has ever suggested that there be no criticism, or that everything has to be positive. Again, it sounds like you're just denigrating anyone who disagrees with you, or who dislikes your tone.
2007-04-29 13:48:11
288.   Mattpat11
And I hate to be the one to bring it up, but Scott Proctor 2007 reminds me alot of Scott Proctor 2005, before he "turned the corner" Alot of walks, alot of homers. Thats also how he pitched in 2004. He may be tired, but I think we need to be willing to accept that this is Scott Proctor.
2007-04-29 13:48:12
289.   yankz
286 Well, Cashman got Bruney from the junk heap, and Henn from the minors (over Villone), and they've probably been the two best relievers.
2007-04-29 13:50:17
290.   williamnyy23
287 Oh please...who did I denigrate? It seems as if you and a few others take a difference of opinion personally. Instead of dimissing the argument, you'd rather dismiss the person behind it.
2007-04-29 13:50:33
291.   randym77
Torre said Wang had a finger injury, and it affected his pitching.
2007-04-29 13:52:42
292.   yankz
291 Shit, any word on how serious?
2007-04-29 13:52:54
293.   Mattpat11
Oh jesus.
2007-04-29 13:54:24
294.   williamnyy23
292 It was a split nail...it happened earlier in the game and Torre indicated he could have pitched with it if necessary. Where I disagree with him is I think it WAS necessary.
2007-04-29 13:56:49
295.   OldYanksFan
I am going to write a letter to Alex/Ciff voicing my concerns that I believe the comments section this year has seriously deteriorated in quality, and I believe many good, thoughtful past posters are no longer here, and others (like myself) are feeling the same way.

I base this on about 3 years of participating regularly on this site.

I will ask that:

1) They post a 'Rules of Etiquette' at the top of the comments section... to include (amoungst other things) No name calling.. No vicious statements.. easy on the cursing.. No peronal attacks.. try to listen to and respond to what others say... Remember your opinion is just one man's opinion, not a fact, not the word of God, and carries no more weight than anyone else's opinion.

2) To post 'Dead Horse' pages, so for those that want to read/participate in Dead Horse issues, can... without 'clogging up the bases' here.
Some issues might be:
a) Joe Torre. Should he stay or should he go?
b) Cashman. Should he stay or should he go?
c) Is Proctor Sturtz II.. or valuable RP?
d) Are we headed for the post Season?

If any of you have similar concerns, I would encourage you to also write Alex/Cliff. I would hope that one of them will address these issues here on the blog.

2007-04-29 14:00:38
296.   Mattpat11
295 So no Torre talk, no Cashman talk, no Proctor talk, no playoffs talk.

Will we discuss movies?

2007-04-29 14:01:09
297.   JL25and3
294 No, you don't disagree with him, you call him incompetent.

And, personally, I found "Shhh...be positive," among other things, to be thoroughly condescending.

Doesn't it strike you at all odd when a number of different posters all have the same reaction?

2007-04-29 14:02:30
298.   yankz
295 OK, I agree that some topics get old, but who decided that all those horses are dead? Choice d) is alive and kicking, IMO, because there's a LONG season to go. What if the team is playing this badly come July? Are we not allowed to speculate on whether the team is making the playoffs or not?
2007-04-29 14:05:07
299.   Mattpat11
297Well, if when someone points out glaring problems with a team that has been worse than awful, they're shouted down with April games not counting, called overly negative, and accused of beating a dead horse, its not hard to assume you have to be blindly positive.
2007-04-29 14:05:49
300.   randym77
Yes, he said it was a split fingernail. Torre said it was the middle finger of his right hand, and it was a horizontal split, not a vertical split as is more common. He said it was "turned sideways." (Yech.)

Whether he makes his next start is up to the trainers.

Show/Hide Comments 301-350
2007-04-29 14:08:04
301.   williamnyy23
297 Again...I'm sorry, but I think Torre has been incompetent...not confused, not misguided, but incompetent. It's my opinion and it's not going to change because you disagree. Instead of debating that opinion, you'd rather debate my right to have it (which itself, is becoming a deadhorse).

You seem to have a problem with everything. Well, to be honest, I find your comments to be condescending as well. That doesn't mean I need to control what you post.

There are many different people who post here...some who agree with me and some who don't. I realize some people don't like hearing different opinions, but that's part of a forum.

2007-04-29 14:08:13
302.   williamnyy23
297 Again...I'm sorry, but I think Torre has been incompetent...not confused, not misguided, but incompetent. It's my opinion and it's not going to change because you disagree. Instead of debating that opinion, you'd rather debate my right to have it (which itself, is becoming a deadhorse).

You seem to have a problem with everything. Well, to be honest, I find your comments to be condescending as well. That doesn't mean I need to control what you post.

There are many different people who post here...some who agree with me and some who don't. I realize some people don't like hearing different opinions, but that's part of a forum.

2007-04-29 14:08:24
303.   BklynBmr
"In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane."

— Oscar Wilde

2007-04-29 14:09:45
304.   seamus
295 You have my support.

298 yeah, it is going to have to be up to Cliff and Alex to declare topics dead horses (or some proxy) and we'll just have to accept it - whether we agree or not. There needs to be some limit on the degrading discourse that has been occuring.

2007-04-29 14:09:50
305.   nick
289 yeah, and I think Bruney seems to have figured something out--but so did Proctor, last year--easy come, easy go....
2007-04-29 14:10:50
306.   seamus
303 nice quote.
2007-04-29 14:11:55
307.   seamus
305 Proctor follows a simple pattern. He is dominant until he is overused, then he goes through a rough streak until he rests. This year has followed that pattern thus far as well.
2007-04-29 14:12:13
308.   JL25and3
299 Sorry, but no one's had a problem with criticism.
2007-04-29 14:14:17
309.   Mattpat11
308 No, they just whine and declare it a "dead horse" and try to get discussion on those topics banned. The idea that Brian Cashman has thrown money at shitty players in particular is quickly determined to be a "dead horse"
2007-04-29 14:15:03
310.   seamus
309 quickly? there have been like 3,000 posts on that topic...
2007-04-29 14:16:59
311.   randym77
304 I agree. Honestly, I'm an agnostic on Torre. I thought he was going to be fired last year, but wasn't upset when he wasn't. I don't know if the problems are his fault or not, and I truly don't care if he stays or goes.

It's the repetitive and degrading way it's discussed here that's off-putting. Not degrading to him, but degrading to other posters here. I'm not saying we all have to be Miss Manners here, but one thing I used to like about this place was the mature and respectful tone of the discussion.

2007-04-29 14:17:24
312.   BklynBmr
I have a solution. All 'dead horse' comments to be posted here:

http://tinyurl.com/2tcmqh

2007-04-29 14:17:47
313.   Mattpat11
310 And the topic is still relevant, because those bad players are still employed by the Yankees. We're not discussing the Raul Mondesi trade. We're talking about Farnsworth and Pavano, moves that hurt us to thus day.

I still say Carl Pavano was the worst transaction in the history of the franchise.

2007-04-29 14:18:30
314.   yankz
311 I'm with you on being undecided. Listening to his interviews and the players' opinions, I realize he's probably the only man who could handle this circus. But I wouldn't be sad to see him replaced with a more pitching-smart manager.
2007-04-29 14:18:40
315.   williamnyy23
309 This whole dead horse theme is, well, a dead horse. If JimDean and Matt and I want to discuss Torre's future, then we should be able to. If OldYanksFan, JL25 and Simone want to talk about something else, then that's there perogative. I am not sure why anyone feels the need to control what other people discuss and demean posters who don't share their line of thinking.
2007-04-29 14:18:48
316.   yankz
312 That was so clutch.
2007-04-29 14:22:19
317.   Mattpat11
315 And I'm not even on the "Torre must be fired" bandwagon. I think he gets blamed for things he doesn't deserve. But I think Joe Torre has made some terrible moves. I think Brian Cashman has made some terrible moves. And as I watch those terrible moves form a terrible baseball team in 2007, I think its worth mentioning.
2007-04-29 14:22:20
318.   seamus
313 ah, the shifting argument. First you claim that folks quiet it quickly. Now you admit that isn't the case but that it is still relevant. Noone ever said it wasn't relevant. Just that it is a dead horse and as such takes away from other discussions. In short, the proposal would not prevent you from discussing it, just require that your discussions not dominate the main threads all the time.
2007-04-29 14:25:15
319.   seamus
311 That pretty much catches my flavor, though I do think he is deserving of being fired. I just think if we do it, it should be in the off season.
2007-04-29 14:25:51
320.   OldYanksFan
295 Well... there are 25 guys who PLAY BASEBALL for the Yankees and a number of kids on the farm. There are potential trades, Roger, Hughes, kicking the Red Sox, making fun of any play 'not a Yankee', other FO issues (coaches, direction) and if all else fails, socialized healthcare.

Listen... I don't, and am NOT trying to, make the rules. My letter is general ideas. It is a 'call to arms' for Alex/Cliff to give some feedback and take some control.

As Kens says, when Blogs get big, they tend to get out of hand. It's up to Alex/Cliff to make the decisions. Maybe they will bring it to us here (on an off day?), for some feedback and a 'vote'.

Also, just because it's a Dead Horse issue, doesn't mean we execute anyone who says the words Torre, Cashman, Proctor, etc. It just means if you have a long diabtribe, or simply need to vent, that there is a page with many opinions specific to that topic.
It means that we don't have to hear certain rants 3 to 10 times a thread, for the NEXT 130+ games (not including the PS)>

2007-04-29 14:27:10
321.   markp
Put me on the "Torre should have been fired after 2004" side of the ledger.

Critiquing the actions of the Yankees manager isn't to be allowed? I doubt you'll find a baseball site anywhere that agrees with that idea.

As far as the "dead horse" issue: the horse will be dead only if/when Torre gets fired. Until then, the horse is very much alive.

2007-04-29 14:27:31
322.   yankz
For anyone who thinks this place is turning into LoHud, one of the posters over there wrote this (referring to 'Boner):

"I hate him too it's just a shame he is going to be the all time best closer. Ever."

2007-04-29 14:30:12
323.   yankz
Is it really that hard to ignore posts you're not interested in, and let people discuss what they want? If someone feels personally attacked (and for some reason actually takes an e-attack seriously), take it up with Ken. If not, relax and ignore. It's just the internet.
2007-04-29 14:32:48
324.   williamnyy23
322 The irony is LoHud is more concerned with capping the "go jetes" and "we need to turn two here" type comments, not the legitimate first guessing of Torre's moves.

If you read through this thread, there are many, mnay cheerleading type posts. I won't point them out, but I don't see why some would rather read those posts instead of legitimate criticism. Of course, I don't feel the need to control what others want to post. There is room for all kinds of perspectives.

2007-04-29 14:32:56
325.   seamus
321 arguments are dead horses when they have been talked/argued to death. It has nothing to do with whether or not the question is still an open question. Although, what bothers me mostly, is the tone that folks take. What you'll see with the main debates that bother people is that they all involve degrading of other posters.
2007-04-29 14:35:40
326.   Mattpat11
318 When the Yankees are playing like shit, like they have been for the entire year, what should we be discussing? You established that discussing the possible reasons is "beating a dead horse"

I can only assume everyone would like this blog to be full of people going "Well its STILL EARLY! When was the last time a game in April counted?" And "Look what the 2005 team did! Look what the 1978 team did! We will surely do exactly what they did! No reason to worry!"

2007-04-29 14:37:21
327.   Mattpat11
321 No, arguments are dead horses when they have been foreclosed, mooted or otherwise resolved. Nothing has been resolved.
2007-04-29 14:38:24
328.   seamus
326 No, I established that there are specific arguments that have been beaten into the ground. Those are dead horses.

When you stop assuming things and start reading what folks actually say you will understand better the points that we are making.

2007-04-29 14:38:56
329.   williamnyy23
325 That works both ways...claiming that what other people want to discuss is a dead horse and implying it is diminishing the "quality of the site" is 100% condescending. When posters reduce themselves to that tone, I simply ignore them
2007-04-29 14:39:32
330.   OldYanksFan
315 Yes, I agree, you should. So why not a separate page away from the game thread, where everyone on that page is interested in the topic matter, and still wants to discuss it?

My idea is not to censor you, but simply to dedicate a space for conversations that:
1) truly have been beated to death from last year and the offseason and the beginning of this season.
2) have no direct bearing on todays game or current events (should we get Tex?... should we trade offense for pitching?)
3) Are subjects that have strong supporters on both sides, and the debate generally doesn't get anyone to change their stance, and simply becomes annoying due to the REPETATIVE nature of the discussion. (he stinks.. no he doesn't... yes he does... no he doesn't... yes he does... no he doesn't...)

2007-04-29 14:41:09
331.   williamnyy23
328 See...that's a condescending response to Matt's disagreement with your opinion. Instead of actually having the right to differ, you assume he isn't "reading"...as if the only way he could disagree is if he doesn't "understand".

Just because YOU think an issue is dead, doesn't mean everyone else does. That is what Matt is trying to say.

2007-04-29 14:41:28
332.   nick
The problem partly is constant hyperbole--eg, the Yanks are a "terrible baseball team". Anybody wanna bet me they'll be under .500 this season? Even odds?

They're horseshit right now, yes. We all agree on that.

No team can expect to overcome significant long-term injuries to multiple starters. If Moose, Wang and Andy can make a total of 75-80 starts or so, the 4-5 spots will be sorted out, and we've got a shot.

2007-04-29 14:41:34
333.   Mattpat11
320 So we should discuss anything but what you don't want to talk about?

And frankly, if we followed your idea of "kicking the Red Sox" this blog would be so much worse than you claim it is. 600 replies that state "Red Sux suxorz" and "were 11-54 but @ least were knot teh red sux lol" would be utter trash.

2007-04-29 14:42:41
334.   OldYanksFan
313
1) If you have thoughtful, viable suggestions for trades involving Farnsworth and Pavano, please voice them.
2) But saying 'Cashman stinks, Fire Joe' over and over and over adds nothing to the discussion.

Can you see the difference between those 2 thoughts?

2007-04-29 14:43:46
335.   JL25and3
326 It's fine to criticize, and to discuss. Look at the reactions of other posters, and you'll see that it's entirely a matter of tone, not of substance.
2007-04-29 14:44:09
336.   Jim Dean
My two cents: I'm of the view that neither Torre or Cashman deserve to be fired. But they have made, and continue to make, very questionble decisions. As fans we should feel very comfortable criticizing those views as much as we'd like.

And for those who would like to restrict or contain debate, I wish you luck and fun on that very slippery slope. Since Torre and Cashman continue to impact the results on the field, I'm not going to play along. I'll be respectful in my dissent, but express it I will.

If you don't like it, ignore or debate me and others like me. Lord knows I've done the same when I felt necessary. That discussion to me defines the Banter, however much people would like to control what's said. You can choose to define it however you like within your own words. And I'll do the same.

2007-04-29 14:45:31
337.   JL25and3
I'm actually not advocating that issues be considered "dead," not appropriate for further discussion.
2007-04-29 14:46:01
338.   seamus
331 all you have to do is read Matt's post to see that I am directly responding to what he said. He openly acknowledged that he was assuming what others meant. It is not condescending to directly criticize this approach.
2007-04-29 14:49:18
339.   yankz
I'm a little disappointed no one responded to 323.
2007-04-29 14:49:49
340.   seamus
i gotta go. I hope everyone has a good day. Hopefully future discussions can be more constructive.
2007-04-29 14:50:41
341.   williamnyy23
334 But no one is doing that...you are creating straw men...when I ask why is Proctor in 15 games...you can ignore it, over a reason you think it's a legitimate workload or agree. I don't see why the question should be off limits at all.

Also, even if someone in anger throws out a "Torre sucks", what about all the posts saying "Go Cap'n Jetes" or "I hate Papelbitch". Read through the log and tell me which comments are more prevalent. I am not being sarcastic here...do you really think THAT is the kind of discourse we need to protect from the dead horse?

2007-04-29 14:50:42
342.   Orly Yarly NoWai
336 And I think that's something we can all accept.
2007-04-29 14:50:44
343.   nick
And re. the general protocol/manners/deceased equine issue, my two cents:

people annoy each other. this will not be changed merely by rules. people disagree. this is not usually changed by discussion.

the answer, to the extent that there is one, is to avoid calling each other morons, to avoid hyperbolic statements and generalizations, and to let the doom & gloom crowd and the bright side of life crowd balance each other out....

2007-04-29 14:51:15
344.   Mattpat11
328And I've pointed out that you've established Jack Shit. YOU don't want to talk about a topic anymore, so YOU have declared it "a dead horse" The topic is still very relevant and effecting the team every day. Nothing has been resolved one way or another. But it bothers YOU to talk about a topic, so it must be a dead horse.

If Cliff and Alex legitimately agree that 320 is really the best use for this blog and we need 600 replies talking about how TEH SUX SUCK" and how we just need to ignore the glaring problems with the team because we won in 1978, then we'll see what a blog looks like as it falls apart

2007-04-29 14:52:34
345.   yankz
342 Count me in.
2007-04-29 14:52:48
346.   Orly Yarly NoWai
344 Calm down. Please, keep it civil.
2007-04-29 14:53:43
347.   williamnyy23
339 we just ignored it.

Here's my final take: Worry about what you think; don't try to control what others think.

As long as no one uses vulgarity (including Papelb$%^h, for example) and personally attacks another site member, I don't see why anyone should be concerned.

2007-04-29 14:54:02
348.   yankz
Ken once said something that I've stuck by. Avoid insults and, like when you yell at an umpire, don't use the word "you."
2007-04-29 14:54:49
349.   OldYanksFan
317
1) What? Viz here? Viz is tired, pitched the last 2 days. How about Bruney? If it's my call, I go with Bruney.
2) God! Joe has got to go. Bringing in Viz here? What a moron. I'm sooooo tired of losing games bacuse of Hoe. But maybe it's Cashman's fault. What a moron. This is what we gave up RJ for? And not just RJ. What about getting Wright and Pavano. Does Cashman have any sense at all? And Does Toore have to use them? What idiots. And what about Buhner? He could help the team now. It's about time.....

Can you see a difference in those 2 statements? Criticizing a specific move made in todays game is fine. Nobody has a problem with that.

It's just that for those of use reading these posts, a short comment on 'current events' is easier to digest then a long 'historical diatribe'.

No on here objects to criticism of current game moves. No one here objects to peoples negative thoughts or frustations. Everyone is here to voice opinions. But we need some rules, some limits on the discourse, for the sake of keeping everyone interested and participating.

Jim, Matt and Will... You guys really can't see this? You can't see that your posts are becoming out of place here? You are not concerned that you are discouraging others from participating?

You are all samrt guys. You must have other ideas to offer us.

2007-04-29 14:55:17
350.   yankz
Wait, really? Are we getting rid of cussing?
Show/Hide Comments 351-400
2007-04-29 14:58:45
351.   Mattpat11
334 No. Part of the situation with Farnsworth and Pavano is if the GM didn't waste time and money getting them, we wouldn't be in this situation. Part of the reason there are no viable trades for these men is Cashman greatly overpaid for their services, despite their careers showing that they really weren't very good. So until he finds some way to get himself out of the mess he created for his team, every time these two screw us, discussion of their bad signings and the inability to move them fall straight on Cashman's head.
2007-04-29 14:59:14
352.   williamnyy23
349 OldYanksFan...I think you are guilty of doing the same. You are trying to claim a moral high ground supported by your preference. Well, you are guilty of the very same thing you are accussing others of...thinking your opinions are authority.

Personally, I think YOU are the one trying to discourage others from participating. I am not the one who'd prefer a blog where certain topics are banished to the corner.

Can't YOU see from your tone that you can't accept that other posters actually think the topics you dislike are appropriate?

2007-04-29 15:02:18
353.   nick
via Lohud: "The Yankees used five pitchers for the 10th straight game. That is the longest such streak in at least 50 years according to the Elias Sports Bureau."

Is it not possible that warming up every damn day for constant 10-pitch appearances is the quickest way to burn a reliever? I'd look closely at those games if I had the time...

2007-04-29 15:02:36
354.   yankz
Via LoHud:

"Brian Cashman said that if anybody should be blamed, it's him. "This is my responsibility," he said. "I put this team together.""

He's taking responsibility and protecting Torre. I respect that.

2007-04-29 15:05:19
355.   williamnyy23
353 I truly believe that if managed well, this is a solid bullpen. While I understand that the starters have tied Torre's hands to some degree, I don't see things getting better. The only way the Yankees are going to win this season is if the pen is managed EXPERTLY. I don't think Torre is capable of doing that, which is why I'd prefer to make a change.
2007-04-29 15:07:53
356.   Mattpat11
349 No, I don't see it at all. You're asking us to view each game in a vacuum. The events that happen in a game often are not the result of that game. They are the result of a series of events that happened over a period of time. If Someone is pitching poorly because they're tired, and they pitched in 8 of the previous 9 games, twice in a blow, well, that's worthy of discussion. If someone is doing poorly, and they have been doing poorly, and are only on the team due to a poor personnel move, thats important.
2007-04-29 15:08:21
357.   randym77
323 I think that only applies when it's only a few posts.

The issue, IMO, is that as Simone points out, the bad tends to chase out the good. When posters start getting juvenile and insulting, a forum can spiral down quickly. I've seen it time and again.

"Just ignore it" only works for small forums. Once you reach a certain size, some form of moderation becomes necessary. If only the blog owner handing out warnings (and bannings, if necessary).

As for swearing...Cliff or Alex (I can't remember which one) asked that we keep the cussing to a minimum. Since their families, including kids, read the blog.

2007-04-29 15:09:32
358.   yankz
Rox rook shortstop turns three, Randy Velarde style. See The Griddle.
2007-04-29 15:13:29
359.   Mattpat11
357 The Yankees are 9-14, 6.5 out, have lost 8 of 9 and can't hold a lead. The bad chased the good away five days ago.

I will try to cut out my swearing though.

2007-04-29 15:22:11
360.   OldYanksFan
352 These are simply my thoughts that I will voice to Alex/Cliff. You may do the same. As I stated twice, it is up to Alex/Cliff to decide if improvements can be made to this blog by addressing some of the issues we are debating.

Will, Matt and Jim are relatively new.
I suggest you read some of the 2005 and 2006 archives. If you read them all, you will understand just how 'dead' some issues are, and why we want to move on.

You will also see a different tone to the overall feel of the blog those 2 years. You will see some people have been censured by Alex, Cliff, Ken or other posters, in an attempt to keep a certain level of discourse in the debate.

What you will also find that the opinions I express are just really to get back to the tone this blog has had in years past. I am not trying to have things 'my way', but rather what I have become accustomed to being the 'Bronx Banter way'.

The Cashman/Torre issues will never be solved here. They have a past, present and maybe future with the Yankees. We could discuss them endlessly.

It's like having a good discussion on politics, and then someone brings up abortion, and all of a sudden you have an ongoing, unsolvable, back and forth, unyielding argument.

Again, in reading my posts, I don't get the impression you are trying to understand my feelings (and also some others here) for where this blog is heading. You debate my 'sentences', but don't seem to digest what I'm trying to say.

But the bottom line is it will be up to Alex and Cliff. I am just one opinion here, a grain of sand on the beach.

Certain subjects get saturated. They have been discussed so much, there is nothing new to say. All the points you raise on Torre/Cashman have been said many, many times over.

The continuing discussion of the saturated 'dead horse' topics was bumming a lot of people out.

You guys read those last 2 years, as I have, and maybe you will get some persopective on how I, and many others here feel.

2007-04-29 15:28:02
361.   yankz
SI has "learned" that D. Baseball is next if Torre is canned:

http://tinyurl.com/yt5u56

Start those conspiracy theories! Mattingly is intentionally tanking the team to get the job!

Um...sorry if that's irrelevant? (No sarcasm intended)

2007-04-29 15:31:20
362.   OldYanksFan
If Mattingly has a very different approach then Torre, you would think he might be influencing Torre right now.

I love Donnie, as most fans do. Frankly, I'm not sure what qualifies him as a manager. Maybe it's simply that he wouldn't be a 'new guy', and things in the clubhouse won't be much different, aside from the fact that Torre is 'out of town'?

2007-04-29 15:32:12
363.   yankz
362 I'm with you. If Torre is gone, I'd rather have Girardi, who is 1/1 in "Manager of the Year" awards.
2007-04-29 15:36:32
364.   williamnyy23
360 Again, OldYanksFan, I appreciate that you have a preference for what should be discussed on the blog. I do as well...the only difference is I see no problem with the free flow of ideas that takes place now. If Alex and Cliff don't want me to question why you'd remove Wang and bring Proctor in for his 15th appearance, that's fine. It's their site and I have no problem respecting their wishes. Of course, you are assuming that is what they want when, in fact, it is what YOU want.

Quite frankly, I find it a little insulting that you (and seamus) keep takin the tone that I am not "trying to understand" your feelings, when the reality is I just happen to disagree with them. I have no problem with you voicing your opinion, but I do think it is condescending when you imply that you are speaking for everyone. Be that as it may, I am sorry you think I am "bumming everyone out". I haven't gotten that impression...if I did, there certainly wouldn't be a reason to continue participating.

Again, if the powers that be would prefer to censor the site in an effort to conform to a "Bronx Banter" way that's fine with me. In the meantime, I would appreciate it if you wouldn't take it upon yourself to define my tone and discourse in terms extending beyond how you feel personally.

2007-04-29 15:37:36
365.   OldYanksFan
From Lohud:
"As for using Scott Proctor, Torre said he he was trying to put the right-hander in a good position. Boston had its 8 and 9 hitters up followed by two right-handed batters. Crisp, Cora and Lugo are not the Boston players who have hit Proctor hard in the past.

Colter Bean was available. But he had attended high school and college with Josh Hancock, who was killed earlier in the day. Today was probably not the day to run him out there."

I can't say I was happy to see Proctor in there, but it's good to know there was a 'method to Torres madness'. The guy has to try and get the best from the personel he has. He has to manage people, as well as today's ballgame, as well as the rest of the season.

I have opinions on in-game management, but I don't give them much weight. There is so much I/we don't know or haven't thought about. Managing looks pretty easy from here, doesn't it?

2007-04-29 15:38:14
366.   seamus
363 I just don't know enough of how Donnie would manage to comment. I mean, how would Donnie manage the pen in these situations? Do you know? I have no idea. What about handling slumping batters? Again, I have no idea. I suspect there is more of a feel from this on the inside, but I don't know that either. Crap, that is a lot I don't know. Donnie hasn't had a public enough role I don't think where we know what he would do. Kind of a big question mark.
2007-04-29 15:40:26
367.   williamnyy23
361 Persoanlly, I'd rather hire Pena as the interim and then decide between Girardi and Mattingly during the offseason. Of course, that presents a problem if Pena leads to the team to a championship, but I'll gladly cross that bridge when we get there.

362 I can't imagine someone of Mattingly's inexperience having a major influence on Torre.

2007-04-29 15:41:39
368.   yankz
366 Well, that's the point. This is his first year as bench coach. He shouldn't be expected to know all those things. Joe G was a bench coach, and then a very good manager. We can expect him to know those things.
2007-04-29 15:42:10
369.   BklynBmr
A nice little 10 game win streak would muffle some of the tension, but I understand (and appreciate) the concern for not letting this get out of hand. The Banter has been for the most part an island of reason and civility, which I really think takes it's cue from Alex and Cliff. I also think all of the longtime posters share a small sense of "ownership" of the joint, if you will. Rarely will Ken, (or Cliff or Alex) have to get involved in a spat, as we've kind of policed ourselves.

The game results and a quick peek at the standings has gotten everyone sideways, and it's OK to blow off some steam, but let's do it 'Banter Style' — with mutual respect. I have no problem with anyone's take on who should or shouldn't be canned, traded or taken out and shot. Make your point, back it up, and better yet offer a solution. But again, don't get personal. It ruins it for everyone.

Me, I'm of the 'ignore the thread if I don't like it' mindset, and most usually dissipate
quickly enough. But randym 357 is correct, though, when forums go south, they go in a hurry. I'm thinking we'll resolve this without any drastic action required from above.

I'm sure Alex and Cliff have better things to do than babysit these threads, and we owe it to them to take a deep breath and hold our fire. There are plenty of other places online where you can roll in the mud with someone, let's not let that happen here.

And kudos to the schedulemaker for tomorrow's off day ;-)

2007-04-29 15:42:45
370.   Mattpat11
360 Please. I've been here since 2005. The "tone" on this board isn't any different than any other massive cold spell the team has had in that period. People are going to be annoyed, and they're not going to be as willing to forgive the massive mistakes Torre and Cashman make as they would be when we're winning. Its a baseball discussion board. People are going to discuss how the team is doing, and the reasons behind that.

Torre and Cashman were an issue then as they are now because they continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. Which makes it a relevant and current. If people based their complaints around letting Bernie Williams start in 2005, that would be a dead horse. Its over done with, has no bearing in 2007 and has been resolved.

But we are talking about moves that have dug the team into yet another big hole. Moves that can be traced directly back to Torre and Cashman.

Now you can dismiss all that with an "its early" and point to 2005, but I'm sure Braves fans were doing that last year up until the bitter end.

Nothing we talk about here is going to change anything one way or the other for this team. And I would hope no one here thinks that. We come here to discuss the team and vent and hypothetically find ways that the team can improve. Or what we would have done differently (not send relievers out every single day, not sign bad first baseman, not sign middling pitching)

When the Yankees get on another winning streak, the tone of the blog will be jovial and good natured again. I just hope the team doesn't kill itself through mismanagement first

2007-04-29 15:43:57
371.   OldYanksFan
"If Alex and Cliff don't want me to question why you'd remove Wang and bring Proctor in for his 15th appearance"
Will... this is getting nuts.
That statement is beautiful. Short, sweet, current.
My issue is with the old, longwinded, Cashman/Torre 'should he go', 'what he did last year', 'are they competent' diatribes. Those are long, sour and old.

And maybe the statement from Lohud above is a tiny, partial answer to that question.

2007-04-29 15:43:57
372.   williamnyy23
365 I can understand not using Bean. I still can't see a reason for running Proctor back out there. 15 games at this point in the season is unprecedented, so there really isn't an acceptable mitigating factor in my mind. .
2007-04-29 15:46:38
373.   yankz
370 Wait, you mean Cash doesn't read this blog?!
2007-04-29 15:48:35
374.   seamus
368 yeah, if I were doing the hiring and couldn't interview the candidates I would agree. I personally like Girardi because he has that track record. I don't even know how to guage Mattingly, which was really my only point.

I'm not closed to Mattingly though. Maybe Cashman would interview him and find out that Mattingly would be a supreme manager. If only I could be a fly on the wall...

2007-04-29 15:50:18
375.   williamnyy23
371 But that's not what started your disgust with my tone. Sure, maybe I was strong calling Torre's bullpen usage incompetent (although i do think he is incapable of handling the pen), but the two points raised centered around it being Proctor's 15th appearance and Wang being removed with 84 pitches. Both of those posts were relevant to today's game.

I am going to let this drop because it is becoming borderline childish (on both sides). Rest assured, however, that I don't disagree with your desire for productive discourse; I just don't believe in trying to define it.

2007-04-29 15:53:56
376.   Yankee Land
374

Agree - Girardi would be front runner, but Mattingly deserves consideration.

What are your opinions on when and if Joe Torre should be replaced.

2007-04-29 15:57:17
377.   OldYanksFan
Lohuds post gave 2 reasons he removed Wang. Within 6 pitches of his pitchcount and a split fingernail that was affecting his performance. You don't believe that was reasonable thinking?

In terms of Proctor, based on Lohud, it was 'an easy gig' and seemed to be a good place where Proctor would succeed, and also build his confidence a bit. In terms of trying to get your best from all your personel, do you think this move had validity?

I mean, he pitched poorly.
But so did Henn. Who expected that?
And Viz pitched well. Who expected that?

Again, I don't think I would have brought in EDSP there, but I'm not sure what I would have done. I can however, see Joe's logic (as he explained it anyway).

I believe on any given day, most of our BP guys can be very good. They have all proved they can also be very bad.

2007-04-29 15:57:37
378.   seamus
376 My opinion would be that it shouldn't happen in season as a general rule. That isn't absolute, as a continued spiral could change my mind. I also realize that while Torre has made some bad moves in my opinion, that he has also been dealt some bad cards in April. I think that too quick of a coaching change could actually cause an irreversible spiral. But I'm also somewhat indifferent in that I'm not really opposed to it happening either.
2007-04-29 16:02:37
379.   OldYanksFan
367 I like Pena too, although I'd still like him to work with Posada. Actually, between Bowa, Pena and Kerrigan, Donnie might be the least qualified for the job.
I get the feeling Donnie might be 'Joe Light'.

If Torre does go, I just hope he is replaced by someone already there. Maybe bring in Girardi as the bench coach again.

I think bringing in someone new 'from the outside' might not sit well with the players.

Torre has been 'Dad' to Jetes, Mo and Posada for 10 years. I wonder how they will be effected.

2007-04-29 16:04:30
380.   williamnyy23
377 Wang retired the side on six pitches. If he could have gone out (which is what Joe also suggested), I would have sent him out for at least another batter.

Again, I don't think Proctor needs confidence. I think he needs rest. To me, 15 games is way too much for this point in the year. Henn and Viz also have a scary number of innings. It is getting to the point where Joe really doesn't have many options...but that's a fire he started.

Do you think Joe has managed the pen well? Are you concerned by the number of appearances?

2007-04-29 16:06:17
381.   Mattpat11
380 Like I said earlier, I'm not closing the door on "2006 Proctor was an anomaly" either.
2007-04-29 16:07:06
382.   williamnyy23
379 On that point, I'd relent...if Cashman thinks he'll lose the team by firing Torre, I could live with it. I just don't see the Yankees as that kind of team...I think they value winning above all, and wouldn't let hurt feelings impact their season.
2007-04-29 16:09:16
383.   Yankee Land
378

Again, agree.

Torn between -

Fire Torn - Has not been on top of his game, consequently "can't fire the whole team, has to be the coach"

Keep him - Starters are starting to come back and the road trip may help. Joe Torre is good at keeping a steady ship.

If management (Stein, Cashman) are staying with Joe, some type of "vote of confidence" might be appropriate to get "Fire Torre" off the front pages and out of the player's minds.

2007-04-29 16:12:18
384.   williamnyy23
381 I guess if the bullpen didn't pitch really well through the Cleveland series (inclduing Proctor), I'd agree. Also, I think it was the bullpen use in the Minnesota and Cleveland series that plated the seeds for the implosion that followed. At this point, it's hard to come to any conclusions anymore because when I look at the bullpen, it seems to me as if they all need a few days of rest. It's becoming a catch-22 in many ways...maybe what they need are a couple of rain outs.
2007-04-29 16:20:11
385.   Mattpat11
384 He could have just had a good couple weeks. He's walking a lot, allowing alot of baserunners and giving up a lot of homers. He did that to an extent last year, but this reminds me alot more of 2005.
2007-04-29 16:20:59
386.   OldYanksFan
"Do you think Joe has managed the pen well? Are you concerned by the number of appearances?"

How can I say? I'm an AutoCad guy, not an MLB guy. I'd have to talk to Proctor and the other RPs and see what they say. I'd have to research there history and health. I'd have to talk with Guidry and Kerrigan and see what they thought. There are probably lots of others things I would need to know in order to make good decisions.

A manager makes the final decision. But a smart manager surrounds himself with good people and resources, and compiles all the info he can get from said resources, and hpefully makes the best decision he can based on all the info he has.

Many people in the media question Torre's BP usage, so I know he's not a star. But I also read complaints about many other managers use of pitchers. In general, we all know Torre gets high marrks for handling the media, players and keeping things on an even keel. Conversely, he gets average or below marks for handling pitchers.

Up until today, IPs are:
Henn: 15
EDSP: 14
Vizz: 14
Brun: 13.1
Myers: 10.2
Farns: 9.1

So 4 guys are equally worked. Bruney has been good and he's probably my guy for today.

2007-04-29 16:23:49
387.   OldYanksFan
"..maybe what they need are a couple of rain outs"
Your best managerial move to date. :-)
2007-04-29 16:51:44
388.   LI yankee
The amount of work the bullpen is getting is probably unprecedented, and that more of a result of the injuries to the pitching staff than to Torre's decisions. So I really don't think even with a genius manager that our record would be much better. Plus I can't really blame Cashman because how could you foresee this happening? There were no attractive pitchers on the market this offseason, and the mediocre ones want big money and long contracts which is against he stands for now.

I think also people need to realize there could be a couple down years. Cashman is still fixing the mistakes of '01-'05 and trying to incorporate more youth onto the team. He has really improved the farm, but it'll take time for those players to develop.

I'm on the fence whether or not Torre should be fired. Like others I am neither for it nor against it. His time may be up, but like I said the manager wouldn't have made a big difference. I do think it would be a big mistake to fire Cashman considering he is trying to build a team reminiscient of the late 90s. They should let him continue.

By no means though am I giving up on this year, not with this lineup.

2007-04-29 16:52:45
389.   yankz
This thread needs a video pick-me-up. Keep your eyes peeled for an old friend (or cheat and read the description):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5A0dmoEp_fw

2007-04-29 18:04:01
390.   yankz
"Notes: Pavano Eying Return"

By "eying," YES Network clearly means "gradually glancing in Return's direction with a telescope."

2007-04-29 18:46:46
391.   OldYanksFan
Pavano began throwing off flat ground and progressed to the top of the rubber, where Torre estimated he threw between 25 and 30 of his 45 total pitches, and will repeat the session either Tuesday or Wednesday.

"It was free and easy," Torre said. "He popped some balls, felt pretty good freedom and he said it's feeling better.

In conversations with team doctors, Torre estimated Karstens will miss between six and eight weeks.

2007-04-29 19:44:38
392.   randym77
386 "But I also read complaints about many other managers use of pitchers."

Ain't that the truth. You can go to most any baseball site on the web, and read the same complaints about the manager (and GM). No matter which team. The lineup, overuse of the bullpen, why is he so obsessed with veterans, why did they sign so-and-so, etc.

I really like Girardi, but he made some bonehead in-game moves in Florida. And his lack of people skills might prove to be a disaster in NY. I was hoping Girardi would get a manager job in Chicago or Washington, because IMO, he needs to have some rough edges sanded off before he takes over the Yankees.

2007-04-29 20:11:59
393.   rsmith51
I am a little worried that Girardi will overmanage the offense, but I think this offense may be able to overcome that. I think how he would handle the pitchers would be the deciding factor. I think that if they are going to get rid of Torre, they need to find somebody who brings something different to the table. I can't imagine that Donnie is that guy, but Girardi could be.
2007-04-29 20:47:48
394.   BklynBmr
Players speak (via LoHud):

"It's not fair. In no way is he responsible for us performing. He's not hitting for us and he's not pitching for us. He puts the best players out there on the field, gives us an opportunity to win. We're just not doing the job. That's unfair and it should stop." – Derek Jeter on the possibility of Joe Torre losing his job.

Jason Giambi: "Most of us came here to play for Joe Torre. … Joe can't control injuries or getting the starting pitcher to go more than five (innings). What does any manager have to do with that?"

FWIW...

Comment status: comments have been closed. Baseball Toaster is now out of business.