Y'know Cliff....I have no problem with Bubba Crosby. I really don't. Anyone named Bubba either belongs on a baseball team, or as a bouncer at a sports bar.

The thing is, a guy like BC has no place on the Yankees. He's solid, but we have better options. Torre's loyalty to his veteran players is a little too much sometimes. I'm not a big time Torre basher, but he does defy logic sometimes.

You want younger guys to play, and improve. You want young players to get in the field and contribute to a team somewhere. It's no good to have a promising young player languishing on a Major League bench. The thing is Kevin Thompson is 26, and not all that young. He's ready to play. Give Philips and Thompson the backup roles, and let them spell a veteran or two on occasion. If they show their stuff, you've found something. If not, THEN you have Bubba Crosby and company to fill in the blanks.

Ugh.

Thompson damn well should have made the team. Looking over the possible reasons (as how could Torre be loyal to Bubba?), I think it all comes down to options - the Kevins had them, Bubba didn't. Since we know that GOB isn't going anywhere, and will be playing the field a good bit under Torre what with his cannon arm and all, Bubba's slot is 5th OF. He'll need to produce in limited opportunities or he'll be cut. I don't really think it's a matter of IF but WHEN. As long as the Kevins have solid starts in Columbus, the good news is there are in-house options when Bubba fails to give us anything, say May or June, or at least until we decide to trade for Reggie Sanders.

With a name like Bubba, ya could grow up to be President. Great place America.

Don't have a grip on the pitching staff. Moose pitched a wonderful game, two starts ago and then had trouble with a kiddy ball team. Whasssssup?

options aside, Bubba has ALREADY failed to give us anything. never mind his flukey decent september, this man has barely hit his weight at the MLB level. bubba's strongest quality is his defense, but he'll rarely get a chance to show it off, as joe has already shown he will go to Bernie every time. after the kind of spring he's had, i bet he'd fall by the wayside if he were give his unconditional release - and here we have a solid AA hitter in thompson, who has had a helluva spring, and he's getting demoted. option schmoptions, you go with the guy who can best help the team. the answer both now (and, at 26yrs old) and possibly later is thompson. so much for the lessons learned from robinson cano.

I went to the Baseball Prospectus roundtable at the Yogi Berra Musuem yesterday, and it was fun listening to Cliff, Jay Jaffe, Steve Goldman and the others rant about Torre's loyalty to his "guys," and how the 96-00 teams were able to have good benches (Raines, Strawberry) because Joe hadn't figure out who those guys were yet.

Two hours of smart, funny baseball conversation for only six bucks. That's such a good deal, I felt like I had gone to see the Blues Brothers Rhythm and Blues Review at the Palace Hotel Ballroom. If any combination of these guys come to your town, I highly recommend it.

Wow! Sounds great alsep73. Wish I was there.

Y'know who I miss. Bubba Crosby's predecessor, Chad Curtis. I'll never forget that big home run he had in the Series against the Braves. October 26, 1999. I was watching the game on the street in SoHo with some friends. I can't remember why we weren't in someone's apartment glued to the TV as we always are during the playoffs, but there we were.

Bottom 10 and that sweet swing ended things. It was actually his 2nd homer of the game if I recall correctly.

Chad is a scrub. Plain and simple. But...he had an amazing run with the Yankees between the All Star break in '97 through the entire magical '98 season. He saw limited action in '99, but managed a .398 OBP. Plus those homers in the Series.

"as joe has already shown he will go to Bernie every time."

I don't think that's true, considering it was often Bubba replacing Bernie in the field this year. I think Bernie in the field this spring was simply to see what he can do in the corners. I doubt he'll get many ABs from any of the field positions.

I imagine that when Thompson tears up AAA, and Bubba continues to be terrible the MLB, then he will be released. I really do believe it is just an options game.

The nightmare scenario, as presented by (I think) Jonah Keri at the Yogi Berra panel: Joe wants to keep Matsui's consecutive games streak alive without making him play the field every day, and he wants to rest Sheff's legs without losing his bat from time to time, which means you could see Bernie (and/or Crosby) playing around 100 games in the field this season.

'Nother question from the panel, for anybody who wants to comment: when someone in the audience pointed out that BP's own defensive metrics say Jeter was pretty good with the glove the last few years, Jonah trotted out the "A-Rod helped him" theory. I'd heard that before, but it occurred to me for the first time that Jeter's never exactly played with a butcher at the hot corner. Boggs, Hayes and Ventura were about average to slightly above, Brosius was great with the glove and Boone's only real value (one homer aside) was with his defense. Is A-Rod really that much better than the other guys Derek's played next to since '96, or was something else at work these last two years?

Describing Jonah's 100-game theory as a "nightmare scenario" sounds right to me as I don't think it has any basis in reality. There will be more Bernie/Bubba in the field than there should be, but not 100 games worth.

Is the "A-Rod helped him theory" that A-Rod covers more area and allows Jeter to cheat to the left and make up for a lack of range?

Although A-Rod's great with the glove and has a canon arm, I don't think of him as having great range.

7 Torre won't "go to Bernie" because Bernie will already be in the game as the DH (batting 8th or higher!) and spelling Johnny Damon defensively. Muahahahaha.

There's a chapter in that Baseball Between The Numbers book about Jeter's defense, and it really comes to no conclusions about why his defensive stats have spiked of late, though it allows for the possibility that A-Rod and him have some kind of natural symbiosis, possibly helping him. Because as you say, most of Jeter's 3B partners have been good defenders, Brosius being extremely strong for a few years.

I'm about halfway through the book and have been pretty disappointed in it, especially so since I devour the Prospectus each year, and the web articles on a daily basis. It seems they use numbers for a while, then run out of steam and either come to no conclusions, or half-hearted ones at best. The chapter on when to use your best reliever is interesting, as are a few others. Makes you think a little bit, but generally when I put the book down for the night, I forget everything almost immediately.

Jonah edited that book, so it's not surprising that what he said at the Yogi was similar to the conclusions the book reaches.

Jeter's defensive stats have most likely changed thanks to an overhaul in the pitching staff rather than any improvement on his part. When you consider that the Yanks overall team defense hasn't improved, yet Jeter's stats look way better, it's hard to come to the conclusion that he was helping his team any more in 05 than he was in 01. The new pitchers are probably sending more balls into his zone, therefore his defensive contribution is increased without any real skill or range increase. He's getting older and slower; he's not getting better. Maybe he positions himself a bit better due to experience, but not from what I've seen.

On the subject of books, I mut confess that I found Dayn Perry's book, Winners, a great disappointment. A lot of filler and not much meat.

I put it down not 30 pages in and moved on over to Steven Goldman's Forging Genius. This book is not only solid and well researched, but Goldman is an extremely good writer.

Next up for me will be Alex's book on Curt Flood.

"Bubba Crosby (.161/.188/.387)"

The Kevins have had a better spring than Sheffield (.200/.256/.286) - maybe we should dump him too.

I'd be interested in seeing a Pecota or Zips or whatever projection for Crosby vs the Kevins.

c'mon, rilke, stop RAINing on the kevins' parade. ;) sheffield could hit .200/.256/.286 for april and he would still start. that's a useless comparison.

debris -

In case you're still lurking:
http://tinyurl.com/f2kbk

The short story - Hanley R. makes the Marlins as the starter after a huge spring and over their in-house prospect. You better hope Beckett and Crisp are worth it the next two years, cause it's looking like you guys lost your starting 3B and SS for the next ten. Good times!

And for all the trash I throw a certain GM's way, I'm coming around to see the best moves this off-season were the ones that weren't made.

What's wrong with me today? [face into wall]

Ahh, much better..Of course, there were still much better options available for CF, the Bench, the Bullpen, but I digress...

In Buster's Blog there's also a bit about a 16 y.o. catcher the Sox worked out, and in that article there's a brief mention that he already visited the NY camps. Too bad we need another C now.

Rob Gee,

In your opinion, what better options were available for the bullpen?

I don't think BJ Ryan was because there was no way that he was coming to the Yanks as a set up man if the Jays were offering him that much as a closer.

And, I'm curious if you think letting Flash Gordon go was a bad move? I'd bet my house that he's out with a significant arm injury within the next two years -- maybe even by the end of this upcoming season.

So, who were better options?

Rob, 18 are you referring to Jesus Montero? Pinstripes Plus did a little profile on his two day visit to Yankee ML camp the week before last. He's supposed to be the real deal and the big International F.A. catch this year. The kid is apparently so big that the only real worry is that he'll have to be moved out from behind the plate because the paying customers sitting behind the dish won't have a view of centerfield. The story is that our ML guys really liked him. I smell a big, big bonus.

Some of these kids shy away from us I think because their agents smell a road block at their position; what 3rd baseman wanted to sign with A-rod in front of him? We don't have that problem at Catcher. Now ya see Rob, B. Cashmoney is too getting it done, and how baby.

Rilke, comments like yours in 16 are exactly why I also include their 2005 stats as well. I could go further, but we've been over this. Crosby has no history of hitting, Reese and Thompson do.

Hopping over the BP, there's no PECOTA card for Reese, but here are the weighted means for the other two:

Thompson: .263/.333/.426
Crosby: .249/.303/.382

Based on their histories, I'd say Reese would project as better than Thompson at least for 2006.

The nice thing about being a Yankee fan is that we still have players -- guys we buy into and get the extra break and have their jerseys retired. Bubba is one of Joe's guys and a major reclamation project for Mattingly. He has totally redone his swing and put in an awesome end of the year '05. He has earned the right to a long look this season.

As the guy who predicted the rise of Robinson Cano while you were plumping for Placido Polanco last year, I am totally enamored of the high-sock, throw-yourself-against-the-wall play of our much beloved Bubba. Granted, the lil' feller covers too much ground and needs to play a little more with Sheff. I am also thrilled that Andy Phillips has made the team. And yes, I also thought Shane Spencer was the second coming of the Mick...

Contrast Yankee player loyalty with these thirty something prick gm's in Boston who coerced a hometown discount out of that gay young blade Bronson Arroyo and then cashed in their chips before the ink was dry on the contract.

Kid Bronson, a budding rock star of dubious ability, was building a nice fan base here on the club circuit where he was doubling the number of drunken lout patrons wearing 2004 World Champions caps (Read One And Done). Alas poor Bronson, the shining dream of a Ford dealership, free beers for life and an endless supply of teen whorelettes has come to a bitter end.

How these nitwits passed on Hanley R and Andy Marte and wound up with Mike Lowell is the stuff of legend. There will always be a Red Sox...

21 - Cliff, my point was you could have stuck with the 05 #s (though a rough AAA-to-majors adjustment factor would have been useful) - throwing in near-noise doesn't help. Your comment here makes your point a lot stronger in my view.

I also think there's something to be said for the 22 POV, though.

what's the story with Andy Phillips? Haven't heard a peep about him after hearing about him splitting DH duty with Bernie for months. Did I miss a memo?

JayD (22) player loyalty has nothing to do with winning. It's not something to brag about.

As for Bubba, his "awesome" end of the year was a .321/.333/.415 September. That's almost all batting average. See Thompson's PECOTA in 21. Note that it has a higher OBP and SLG than Bubba's "awesome" end of the year.

Meanwhile, since loyalty is your thing, Bubba is an import (from the Dodgers in the Ventura trade), while Reese and Thompson were players drafted and developed by the Yankees.

You got me on Cano, though. I didn't think he'd pan out. Then again, we should revisit this conversation after he's had a full season in the bigs. As for Polanco, all he did was hit .331/.383/.447 with a 112 Rate at second base last year.

someone mentioned Chad Curtis. I believe he rubbed Jeter the wrong way and was quickly shown the door. There was some deal about his alleged bible thumper ways that made him abrasive to some of "Joe's Guys" or something like that. Am I making this up?

Schteeve 24, Phillips was given a spot on the 25-man outright at the beginning of camp. Torre plans to use him as Giambi's back-up at first despite Cashman's wishes to have him get starts at DH. Of course, things can change during the season. Stay tuned.

Rilke 25, I included the spring stats because managers often make their choices based on them (right or wrong). What I was implying was that despite the extreme gap between their performances, Torre still went with Crosby, which proves that the Kevins were not given a legitimate shot this spring after all.

Schteeve 26, I believe you're right about that, though I can't back it up. There's also the fact that in his only full season as a Yankee he slugged .360. Seriously, are we really pining for Chad Curtis? Has it gotten that bad on the Yankee bench? (don't answer that)

25 Actually Cliff, and I know its hair splitting, but we picked Reese up from the Pads who drafted him in 2000.

19 pop -

I've promised that I won't go into that. But here's a hint - youth over OPP.

20 wsport -

Good to see you again! Yup, that's him. My only worry is that if he's that big now, what happens in ten years? I think Matt LeCroy and shudder. Pudgito...why oh why?

And for the record, I have no problem at all spending CASH on propects. Trading them away (after said big bonuses) to reacquire Drew Henson...ah, but I digress again.

"Torre still went with Crosby, which proves that the Kevins were not given a legitimate shot this spring after all."

Or that someone convinced him 30 ABs aren't very probative.

Rob Gee,

I understand your whole OPP argument and I'd buy into it a little more if it wasn't the New York Yankees -- yes, those same Yankees that have won the AL East for 8 straight seasons. I want that to read 9 STRAIGHT!

Look, a little home grown talent here and there (e.g. Cano, Phillips and Wang) is N-I-C-E. But if you're going to hand the ball to the bridge to MO, then you better have some faith in these guys, which would only be earned with a track record.

In the Bronx, you ease a youngster into the big time, not throw a bunch of kids on the 24 man roster and hope they deliver. That's a recipe for a second place finish and a losing battle for the Wild Card.

So I say to you, enjoy Cano and Philips and Wang and the homegrown vets like Jeter, Mo, Posada, Bernie, ah, we know the drill...and cheer for the OPP that'll win some games for our team.

Maybe if Farnsworth or Small or Myers go down for a long period of time, it'd be nice to see Matt Smith or Proctor take their places, but I don't want to have to rely on them to win it all...not just yet, at least.

Rob, 30 look on the bright side. Imagine the talent we could and would have given away over the last 5 years had our M.L. System not been "barren". Brazoban, Pena, Navarro, Arias, Marte et. al. are nothing compared to the horrors of giving up on something like say Kazmir. My goodness, we should really start counting our blessings. It's exactly that type of ingratitude that causes hard feelings you know.

Does anyone have any defensive ratings on Bubba vs. The Kevins.

It's great to compare batting stats, but isn't that bench spot's prime responsibility (and Bubba's greatest asset)defense?

Not to say that I'm not going to cringe if Bubba steps up with 2 out, bottom 9th in a 1 run game.

32 unpopster -

Farns I was okay with (not O and not PP) - though I will always be expecting his head to explode in a crucial situation. Dotel too seemed okay (not O, maybe PP). They alone would have filled the slots you lust for. The rest of the slop could be replaced by youth and we'd do just fine (in the Bullpen at least). Okay, I should stop now..

Probably the best Damon interview since he joined the Yanks:
http://tinyurl.com/lr5tz

I'd like more details before the year is over...

Well for 25, isn't a PECOTA a projection? We don't know if Thompson will actually hit what his PECOTA numbers suggest.

In 2004, (or was it 2003?) Crosby lit up Spring Training. People thought he was the second coming. The truth is, we don't KNOW what Thompson will put up in the MLB level.

Was Thompson even in AAA last year? I don't think he was (though I may be wrong). Wouldn't it make sense to make sure he can hit the AAA level before we put him on the MLB roster (and lose Crosby forever). I mean afterall, no one is advocating bringing up Duncan after a good spring training and only up to AA ABs.

I really think that you guys are making too much of the "Torre's Guys" thing in this situation. It is just an option thing.

33 wsport - you're right. Me thinks thats more luck than skill. But Navarro and Pena still have plenty of time to turn into above average players.

It's defintely fun though to think that the Sox just traded away half of their infield for the next decade for two years of Beckett and Crisp.

Jete 37, PECOTA is just a projection (albeit one of, if not the most accurate), that's why you won't see me use it very often. I only did so in 21 at Rilke's request.

Thompson spent the second half of 2005 in Columbus and struggled, as he always seems to do at a new level. I expect him to hit very well in Columbus this year, but would also expect him to struggle if promoted to the majors, following his career pattern. That's why I've been leaning toward Reese, despite his weaker spring, but since Bubba hasn't hit anywhere during the regular season (he lit-up spring training in 2004 and 2005) since having a peak-age, Pacific Coast League-aided career year with Las Veags in 2002, I'd take my chances on the younger Thompson over Bubba anyway.

As for the option argument, with both Kevin's on hand, losing Crosby is not really a loss. I do believe Bubba's a better defender than either Kevin (of whom Thompson appears to be the better glove), but he has no upside at the plate and will turn 30 this year.

Meanwhile, Rilke 31, no matter what criteria Torre uses (spring stats, career minor league track records) the Kevins are preferable to Bubba. There is no basis for Torre to have chosen Bubba over one of them (save the option argument, which I just addressed), whether he places value in spring stats or not.

Rob, 38 I believe a useful term here is "schadenfreude". And oh boy would their misfortune make me happy; especially in light of the musings of our favorite Sawx trash vendor right here on this very site. I suppose there's no sense counting the chickens before they're hatched but .... ouch.

Correction: Bubba's big age-27 season was 2003 leading up to the Ventura trade.

39 - "the Kevins are preferable to Bubba": I wasn't arguing about that, instead was arguing about the right info to make the case (data that uses an AAA/major conversion, e.g. a Pecota projection) and about Torre's decision-making (who knows).

Note that saying X hit OPS O in league L while Y hit P in league M therefore blah is a projection - just implicit, and unweighted for significant effects.

Looks like that heated rival between the Sawx and Devil Rays is in mid-season form:
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

Rilke 42, I understand that's what you were arguing, I just can't figure out why since we both seem to agree. Yes, my original post failed to dig deep on the careers of the three players, but that was because I didn't feel like rehashing something that I've already established in this space and that most of us are in agreement with. Funny how that worked out . . .

Is ARod's (alleged) great range the reason for