Pass the Maalox ...

I remember have similar feelings when the new Arthur Ashe Stadium was built for the US Open. For years my family had gotten ticket packages, and even though we were in the worst seats, in the old stadium you were still close enough to the action to really feel like you were there. When Ashe went up, we had tickets for one year. I remember watching a semifinal that first year and literally being unable to see the ball from our seats. Watching two guys pantomine tennis is not worth the exorbitant price of those seats.

I have nothing against building a new stadium per se, Philadelphia did it while I was living there and that place is a beautiful park, with plenty of cheap seats for fans like myself. What the Yankees are doing though is criminal. Taking seats from lifelong fans of the team is just awful. I worry that the entire atmosphere at the stadium will be different next year, my whole reason for going is to take in that atmosphere. I don't sit close enough to claim my view is better than it is on TV.

The NY Giants are doing a similar swindle, especially with the seat licenses. Friends at the first game this season told me that Tisch was actually booed at halftime during a superbowl presentation. I know its all about the money for these teams, and they are corporations, but you shouldn't forget or leave out your most loyal fans. In the end, its another example in our society of rich people being the greediest of all and hoarding things for themselves. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it makes me sad. Very sad.

I agree with your point about having mixed emotions because I too haven't fully come to grips with how I feel about the switch, and probably wont until I am walking out of there on Sunday night.

I think you are way off base, however, in your other portrayals.

For starters, one of the main things you hear from Yankee fans is that the team should always get the best players (pay Santana; pay Sabathia; pay Texeira, etc.). Well, that can't be done without money. If the Yankees want to soak the rich to pay for the players I enjoy, I'm all for it.

Having said that, I don't think the average fan is being priced out of the new Stadium anymore than the old Stadium or any event in New York City. Even if the best seat in the house was only $100, season tickets would cost $16,000 for a pair. That is already well outside of the price range of even solid middle class fans. If the price increases mean that the wealthy will have to give up their tickets to the insanely rich, then so be it. Also, most of these accounts will likely be corporate, and those tickets do fall into the hands of "real fans".

Also, while the new slope will detract from those lucky enough to have a seat behind home plate (which is where my partial plan seat has been for almost 10 years), the new slope should make the seats in the rest of the upper deck better. Also, the prices in the upper deck will either be the same or actually go down (I've already looked, and if I get relocated to a similar seat, by cost will actually decrease from this season). As for the reduced capacity, well, the new total is about equal to this year's season average. Basically, if a fan of modest means wants to go to a few games next year (and definitely in future years when the novelty wears off), they should be able to at the same prices they did this season.

Finally, I think you completely mischaracterized the financial portion of the deal. The Yankees have never said they were going to completely use private finances and private funding. Instead, the project involves the use of public financing vehicles that will be paid off with private funds. After all, why shouldn't the Yankees benefit from the same breaks that other businesses (worth multiples of $1.5bn) receive. More personally, as someone who pays a good amount to in State and City taxes, I have no problem with the city funding infrastructure and providing other economic benefits.

What's more, if State Assemblyman Richard Brodsky was so against this deal, why did he vote for it? It seems a little disingenuous to me.

The idea of a big bad sports team taking money from city schools and park land from city youth is an easy thing to criticize, but these deals are so much more complex than that. Of course, that wont stop the same people from complaining 50 years later about how Walter O'Malley tore the heart out of Brooklyn by moving his team to LA.

2 Why are seat licenses such a swindle? Giants' season ticket holders have been guaranteed a seat for years and years, but why have they deserved such preferential treatment? The fair thing to do would be for the Giants to take new applications every season and pick them out of a hat. Of course, the current season ticket holders would be against that too. They basically want to have a seat license without paying for it. It's funny how people become so angry when their interests are at stake, but then lose their principle once their needs are met. Also, under the Giants current plan, those with seat licenses can sell it as an asset. Considering the vibrant secondary market for tickets, I could see someone making a nice profit doing just that.

I wonder what a couple more years of no playoffs will do to attendance - and what declining attendance might do to ticket prices. Of course, if folks are essentially paying upfront for tickets in the lower bowl, it might not matter. Might lead to some great deals on StubHub, though.

I haven't read too much about the stuff happening in front of Congress today, but my very basic understanding is that the City overvalued the parkland, which somehow led to a huge tax break for the Yanks. Why couldn't they build on the existing site again?

And the City, Neil deMause (and others) report, is getting one of those luxury suites that have you so upset, Cliff. Hmmm.

I can only imagine what people who live next to the Stadium feel.

1 Way, way off topic - diana, was that your friend again last night, catching Damon's home run?

5

Yes, that was my friend Zack Hample. He has no life. :-)

3 From our past discussions, I know there is nothing I can say that will change your opinions, which I disagree with. But I have to say this.

"The Yankees have never said they were going to completely use private finances and private funding."

Yeah, that's right, the Yanks never said they were going to pay for it completely with private monies. Neither did Cliff. But there are plenty of quotes by Trost and/or Levine, among others, saying that the Yanks were going to put up (around) $800M towards the costs of the project. That was, and still is, a lie.

Excellent post.

The circumstances of the new stadium definitely pose a moral dilemma for Yankees fans.

This year has really brought the organization's total lack of interest in benefiting the surrounding community into stark relief. It's very sad.

I hate the corporation, but love the team. The question is how much can we really separate those two entities?

6 Maybe not, but that's one hell of a memory to have from the last week of the Stadium.

6 Zack Hmple? Author of Watching Baseball Smarter? Great book!

0 I personally feel no nostalgia for the Stadium itself or for the neighborhood. I'd prefer if they'd move the team to the Meadowlands. A lot of Yankee fans are driving in from NJ and CT.

I don't think supporting the team is the same thing as supporting the Stadium. You're helping fans follow an activity they enjoy; you're not supporting crooked ownership and politicians.

My behavior will change little: Bleacher or upper deck, no $7.50 beer, take a Subway. Inexpensive entertainment value. Or watch on TV, listen on the radio, follow on the Internet for free.

Even if I mostly disagree, I thank you for one of the most insightful observations I've read concerning the new Stadium.

I admire that you took the Yanks to task. I think a fan of a team has to be disappointed when they see the revenue being the primary objective of the stadium setup. It's not the fans that are considered, because any fan will tell you, they'll sit on a wooden bench if it meant they could be feet away from Jeter on deck. No, it's not for the fans. It's for corporate flaunting, and maybe a few of the wealthy fans to enjoy.

Just because the bleacher/upper deck seats may well be cheaper in the long run, it doesn't mean a fan should be any less pissed off that he/she will never see the game from the view of the few, the rich.

Also, just because an ownerships plan is win-at-any-cost, doesn't mean a fan's plan is win-at-any-cost, especially if it means they'll never see a game in person that's closer than te 400 ft mark.

The greatest game I ever saw was 4 rows behind the Red Sox dugout at Fenway; Big Papi is really larger than life. The seats are corporate owned. Maybe they appreciate it, but would baseball be better off with a family of 4, with a couple kids experiencing Big Papi from those seats? Probably.

I'm a bitter bitter party of 1, because you'll see crappy teams selling 4 box seats w/ 4 dogs and 4 sodas for $44, but the good teams won't even give you one box seat for $44.

10

Yes .... that Zack Hample.

I was witness to one of his wilder days of baseball snagging:
http://tinyurl.com/4gdjbz

New York magazine has a little tidbit on how some of the seats are actually going to have an obstructed view.

http://tinyurl.com/4f2bwh

"I don't think supporting the team is the same thing as supporting the Stadium."

I suspect supporting the team is the moral dilemma for people who share Cliff's sentiment. Watching on TV and listening on radio makes the team with highly questionable ethics richer.

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As a baseball fan, this is terrible news.

New stadium or no new stadium, the Yankees and many other teams in all sports are pricing themselves out of reach from the "common folk". I've seen fewer games every year for the past 5 years, down to just one game this year. "Can" I afford it? Sure, but it's now how I want to spend my hard earned money anymore. With a family of four there are better ways for me to spend my family entertainment dollars.

And this is NOT statement guided just to the Yankees ... it applies to about 1/3 (??) of all MLB teams.

But I'll still check out the box scores ...

On that note, do we know if any of the Yankee players have bought seats for their (any?) charitable causes?

I would HOPE, as an example, A-Rod's $27M/year provides for SOME seats to EVERY game for some underprivileged kids.

Also, the primary reason I would be bothered if the stadium was inaccessible for the average person is if the average person paid for the stadium with their tax dollars and there isn't another form of return on their investment.

7 I guess a lie is in the eye of the beholder because at $50mn per year in debt service, that $800mn figure is very possible. You may disagree with using public incentives for private business (if so, the Yankees would be way down the list of concerns); you may think the Yankees have an obligation to put the social welfare of the South Bronx ahead of profits; you may believe that "loyal" fans deserve to sit in great seats at cheap prices; etc. There are lots of legitimate positions, but that doesn't afford them the right to make exaggerated claims and accusations.

I understand Cliff's outrage over the Stadium. I would share in your outrage if I thought that the public funds that have gone to the new Stadium would have been spent on "schools and other public facilities in the Bronx and the other four boroughs." The one things that politicians have always understood is that all this talk about education of children being important by their constituents is just talk. This is which is why politicians always cut education funds and public services first during budget cuts.

You also mentioned people being priced out, I have always wondered who are these working and middle class people who could afford season tickets in the first place. I have gone to an occasional game, but I can't imagine buying season tickets and I don't own one piece of Yankees' merchandise. I have always refused to put huge chunks of my hard cash into George Steinbrenner's pockets. My advice to the people priced out of the new Stadium is to view this as blessing. Buy a HD tv and put the rest of the money in their 401K or in this market a nice safe CD.

I love the current Stadium but the fans need something better. Tuesday night I sat in the last row of the upper deck just past first base. These seats are obstructed view seats, you can not see the right field corner. There are many seats in the upper deck and loge with obstructed views.

They needed to move the seats further back so everyone could see the entire field. The bleacher seating issue is unfortunate and the Yankees deserve to take a hit for it. Overall, there will be fewer obstructed view seats in the new place.

The "terrace view" seats in the luxury section of upper deck in the new stadium are sold out. The ticket cost runs from $100 to $135 per ticket and you had to make a muti season deal. These were all sold to existing season ticket holders and there is a waiting list. There is clearly a demand for improved Stadium surroundings from the existing fan base.

The super luxury seats downstaris are not sold out. They will have a tough time selling these given the carnage on Wall Street.

I agree the parkland issue has been handled poorly. The Bronx politicians deserve heat for this. They have done little to stand up for the people who live there. On the other side, the Yankees have been a part of the community for a long time so a balance has to be struck.

I will reserve final judgement until I set foot in the new place.

I will not comment on the public v. private financing issue--it is beyond my abilities, though I suspect that as with any large chunks of money, it is difficult to disentangle public from private. Moreover, regardless of who is paying for the park, it will be difficult to assess the benefits (public and private), both tangible or otherwise. I find that these debates tend to align with one's predisposition and/or political views.

I will, however, comment on one aspect that does royally piss me off despite my relative ambivalence about the whole new stadium affair. Various blogs have tended to talk about the season ticket holders of more modest means who will get the shaft, and this true. But (and this is self-interested) fans like myself, who are able to attend only a couple of games a year, are also getting shafted.

It is not because I cannot afford to pay more tickets--in fact, since I only go to a couple of games, I can view each as an "event" and thus be willing to pay more for each trip. Rather, it is that there are increasingly no tickets available. Tis of course started a few years ago, when attendance boomed. But this is largely not walk-up business. The Yankees have done an excellent job convincing people to buy season ticket packages, so that more and more of the seating is gobbled up. In effect, the Yankees have fostered a situation in which nearly every seat in the house is prepaid for, guaranteeing income despite poor play or poor weather.

This process will accelerate in the new stadium. The more modest season ticket holders will be pressed into the relatively affordable upper deck sections. Fewer seats (despite a massively larger facility) means that those few cheap seats will be taken by season ticket holders. Soon baseball will (unfortunately) be like other major sports, where you cannot get tickets unless you own a season package or purchase them from sort of service.

I am worried, perhaps too much I realize, that the day will come when there simply won't be seats for me to buy, and my string of going to games each and every year will come to an end.

Here's a major confession on my part: In my 30-plus years on this planet, I've been a devout Yankee fan for approximately 90% of them and I've never been to Ol' Yankee Stadium. During my childhood, schlepping three+ hours down to Yankee Stadium with four children on my Dad's mechanic's salary wasn't happening. And he was an indifferent baseball fan, anyway. After high school, I lived in Boston and Seattle and have seen the Yankees play in both of those cities dozens of times. I've lived back in upstate NY for the last 5-plus years, but I've never felt the urge to drop serious coin on a weekend trip to NYC to watch the Yankees. And with the new stadium, I'm even less inclined. Does it not make me less a fan? I don't think so. I watch games when I can, I keep up with the team, and whenever the AAA team is in town, I make a point to go watch them.

The new stadium does nothing for me and, truth be told, when I want to bask in the history of the game I drive the hour to Cooperstown.

22 There's always StubHub but I see your point. I remember in the 80s when I was a kid deciding to go to a day game that morning if the weather was nice. You could actually walk up and buy an upper deck or bleacher ticket back then. Of course the team was often awful, but it was a nice thing. The Yankees are too big for that now I guess.

19 To each his own.

22 As long as StubHub exists, you'll be able to get tickets. In re-reading your post, is that what you meant by a service?

Demand will go down at some point in time. I plan on hanging around long enough to see it happen, and buy some of those $2500 seats on something like StubHub for a fraction of that price.

0 >> There's also resignation, as this moment was sure to arrive at some point during my lifetime, even if it didn't necessarily need to be now. >>

Unfortunately there would never have been a 'good' time to knock down the old park, short of walls collapsing and/or steel girders giving way and injuring people. I suppose this generation of fans just has to 'suck it up', as sad as that sounds.

I also don't doubt that there might have been some level of corruption and/or scandal when building the original park. Palms have always had to be greased, beaks had to be wet, etc.

The new pricing scheme definitely sucks for the hardcore, blue-collar fan — after all, we're the people who fill the seats when the team is doing poorly as well as during the good times.

When the sheen of the new park wears off and the team is in 4th place in September, are we going to see the upper deck completely full while the field boxes are all empty? I suspect not, because from the sound of the press releases thus far, the new Yankee Stadium will be less about baseball than anything else.

I would urge everyone to spend the money they'd use on tickets and travel, and just buy yourself a really nice hi-def television. It's probably going to be the best seat in the house — that we can afford, that is.

24 25 I meant something like stub hub, or those boards that exist for some teams where season ticket holders can sell games that they can't make it to.

But even with stub hub t