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Sun Setting for Yanks
2008-09-06 17:16
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Bonzone vs a Rookie tonight in Seattle.  There was no sun in New York today, just rain and wind.  Anyhow, here's a nice picture to look at...

Untitled 

Let's Go Yan-Kees.

Comments (232)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-09-06 18:10:39
1.   Mattpat11
I really hope tonight is the end of Ponson. If the season's over anyway, I'd really rather not see Tubby every five days.
2008-09-06 18:18:07
2.   Just fair
Ha. I just caught Mike Rowe on "Dirtiest Jobs" the other night helping a crew replace one of those water tanks in the NYC. Man. What a pain in the ass. Freakin' dangerous, too.
2008-09-06 18:22:41
3.   The Trolley Dodger
2 Saw that too. Had no idea they were made out of wooden slats.
2008-09-06 18:51:38
4.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
1 will sound like WilliamNYY23 now but..starting Ponson again makes me seriously question Girardi..no possible benefit from this at all..Hughes, Aceves and IPK should be starting all this month..
2008-09-06 19:07:05
5.   williamnyy23
4 Isn't that a good thing? :)
2008-09-06 19:11:27
6.   Alex Belth
Jeez, this kid works quickly. Hey, any of youse ever been to Safeco? Looks like a really great park.
2008-09-06 19:11:30
7.   monkeypants
4 Well, Aceves is starting this week, and IPK and HUghes are not on the MLB roster. So if anyone ins to "blame," it would be Cashman, not Girardi.
2008-09-06 19:11:35
8.   Mattpat11
Jeter can theoretically tie Ruth tonight
2008-09-06 19:12:27
9.   williamnyy23
Wow...Jeter got down the line slooow. He couldn't have been running hard.
2008-09-06 19:13:01
10.   Alex Belth
That's a career high 22 dps fer Jetes...
2008-09-06 19:13:09
11.   williamnyy23
7 I am pretty sure that if Girardi wanted Hughes or IPK, they'd be here.
2008-09-06 19:13:41
12.   williamnyy23
Wow...a HR to center at Safeco.
2008-09-06 19:13:49
13.   monkeypants
9 Ahhh...I forgot what I was missing when a took a few weeks vacation from the Banter game threads.
2008-09-06 19:13:54
14.   Alex Belth
Wow, what a wonderful image...Did you guys see the shadow the center fielder against the outfield wall there? Beautiful little image.
2008-09-06 19:14:57
15.   williamnyy23
13 Was that not a legitimate observation?
2008-09-06 19:15:44
16.   Ken Arneson
6 I've been there. It's certainly nice, but "really great" is probably an exaggeration.
2008-09-06 19:18:09
17.   Alex Belth
The replay of the Ichiro play had a Beef Jerky ad behind Ponson as he reached down and made that poor throw.
2008-09-06 19:19:13
18.   nick
I wonder if Girardi could have Hughes or IPK if he wanted--that seems like Cash's call to me....how many total MLB starts do we get next year out of Joba, Hughes and IPK? Anybody want to set an over-under? 30 too pessimistic?
2008-09-06 19:19:20
19.   Alex Belth
Happy Boitday Bonzone.
2008-09-06 19:19:55
20.   monkeypants
15 "Jeter got down the line slooow" may be an accurate observation--I don't know, I didn't notice. "He couldn't have been running hard" is in no way an observation--it is a conclusion, an argument drawn from the aforementioned observation.

In any case, I was simply observing--accurately, no--the tenor of the Banter, which I had somewhat forgotten during my absence.

2008-09-06 19:20:43
21.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
17 hahah, i like how his pitching scouting report was "strive for 5", as in "innings pitched"..

am sure I heard the Japanese announcers say "Ponson moved quickly for such a fat man"..

2008-09-06 19:21:02
22.   williamnyy23
18 I guess we can't say for sure, but Girardi is on record saying he was keeping Ponson in the rotation because the Yankees didn't have any experienced alternatives. Also, Girardi really believes the Yankees are still alive. While his optimism is admirable, it is actually hurting the team.
2008-09-06 19:21:20
23.   Mattpat11
I'm getting annoyed. I can't get any volume on youtube videos I play.
2008-09-06 19:22:52
24.   Alex Belth
Matt, just double check the volume on the actual You Tube clip as well as one your machine.
2008-09-06 19:22:55
25.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
more GIDPs..sigh...
2008-09-06 19:23:11
26.   williamnyy23
20 Well, if you get the chance, watch the play and let us know what you think. I don't see how one could interpret a comment as having a tenor without actually noticing the play, unless honesty is the tenor to which you were referring.
2008-09-06 19:23:21
27.   Mattpat11
22 "Girardi thinks the Yankees are alive" and "He wants to pitch Sidney Ponson" don't really jive.
2008-09-06 19:24:39
28.   Mattpat11
24 That's not the issue. Someone told me I need to update my flash player, but I've downloaded the thing repeatedly and it doesn't seem to have any effect.
2008-09-06 19:24:43
29.   williamnyy23
27 Exactly...which is part of the problem (i.e., equating experience with a better chance to win).
2008-09-06 19:25:54
30.   Alex Belth
Dude works very quickly...
2008-09-06 19:26:50
31.   Alex Belth
Matt, dag, bro, I'm sorry you are having that problem. I feel for you. Must be damn frustrating...
2008-09-06 19:27:17
32.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
29 yep..hate the BoSox but they never hesitated to throw their rookie pitchers out there..IPK was awful but still rather see him fail than Ponson or Rasner..but this is a tiresome debate...

where did Richie Sexson end up? has he retired?

2008-09-06 19:27:26
33.   williamnyy23
28 Too bad...then you cant hear this:
http://tinyurl.com/3b84dx
2008-09-06 19:28:34
34.   monkeypants
26 Perhaps "tenor" is not the most precise word. How about this, it's nice to tune back in and find you still questioning Jeter's effort. The bitchy tone starting in the first inning, honest or not, is one of the reasons I decided to take a break from the game threads.
2008-09-06 19:28:41
35.   Mattpat11
33 If I load of AOL I can hear youtube, but that's a pain.
2008-09-06 19:32:13
36.   Just fair
I need 6 months of rehab berore I can handle seeing Kennedy on a big league mound again. Ponson must have found a good seafood joint this afternoon.
2008-09-06 19:32:16
37.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
33 my lady just walked on and asked why i was watching gay guys on Youtube...
2008-09-06 19:33:00
38.   williamnyy23
34 I didn't question his effort...may be he is hurt? I don't know. What I do know is he did not run hard...the replay confirmed that. I am sorry if you object to an honest observation, but your response to it strikes me as having more of a "bitchy tone". In any event, maybe in the future I can live up to your standards.
2008-09-06 19:33:16
39.   williamnyy23
35 It's worth it.
2008-09-06 19:33:42
40.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
33 Hershiser was hysterical in that..
2008-09-06 19:34:07
41.   Alex Belth
What is this the National League? Game is just skipping along here...
2008-09-06 19:35:06
42.   williamnyy23
40 My favorite was Duncan and his afro.
2008-09-06 19:36:01
43.   Alex Belth
william, that you tube clip is wrong in so many ways...so wrong it's right.
2008-09-06 19:37:01
44.   williamnyy23
43 I saw that a few weeks back...it is definitely the most entertaining sports team music video to come out of the mid-1980s.
2008-09-06 19:38:18
45.   monkeypants
29 et al. Phil Hughes is starting in the AAA playoffs today; Scranton leads the best of five series 2-1. I am not sure if this is the final playoff series for Scranton, but if so, then Hughes could be called up to pitch next week. Aceves is already in the rotation this week. I would be surprised if we don't see IPK and HUghes starting once or twice down the stretch.
2008-09-06 19:39:45
46.   monkeypants
38 Aim high!
2008-09-06 19:40:38
47.   Alex Belth
Dude, that curve looked like it was almost a strike, no?
2008-09-06 19:40:42
48.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
44 can't say I remember anything but the SuperBowl Shuffle and "Let's Go Mets" (which I believe Ed Koch and Gabe Kaplan popped up in..ah, the 80s...)
2008-09-06 19:41:14
49.   Alex Belth
No, it was high...funny to see Mel in a different uni here...
2008-09-06 19:42:18
50.   Alex Belth
william, I remember the Lakers having a pretty horrendous video/song in the 80s too.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-09-06 19:42:20
51.   Dimelo
Nice play on The Stache!
2008-09-06 19:42:33
52.   Mattpat11
Did we steal that ball four call?
2008-09-06 19:42:37
53.   monkeypants
The shift giveth...and the shift taketh away.
2008-09-06 19:43:30
54.   williamnyy23
Wow...that has to be the deepest 4-3 I've ever seen. What does ZR do with that?
2008-09-06 19:43:39
55.   monkeypants
49 Didn't the NY Football Giants do a video after '86?
2008-09-06 19:44:04
56.   Dimelo
47 I thought it was a strike at first. Mr. One Billion OPS+ would never make an out with RISP, he'll gladly take a walk. I don't think I've ever seen ARod make an out this year with RISP, he's money. Literally!
2008-09-06 19:45:05
57.   williamnyy23
50 Would love to see it...can't imagine Karim dancing.
2008-09-06 19:45:35
58.   Alex Belth
D, you got to chill with A Rod. You are going to starting getting a rep as a one-trick pony. LOL.
2008-09-06 19:45:36
59.   Dimelo
55 Yeah the Giants made a video, wasn't it to the tune of walk like an Egyptian? I could have swore it was.

It was the thing to do in those days.

2008-09-06 19:46:28
60.   Mattpat11
That was clearly interference.
2008-09-06 19:46:54
61.   monkeypants
Soooo...the baserunner is on the grass and Ponson is called for obstruction?
2008-09-06 19:47:28
62.   williamnyy23
Why did the umpires stop the play...it should have been a delayed dead ball.
2008-09-06 19:47:41
63.   Just fair
Another horseshit call from the boys in blue. Blasts.
2008-09-06 19:47:41
64.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
59 Walk Like an Egyptian???
You guys are too lame, got me on YouTube now and not watching the action in the game..
2008-09-06 19:48:57
65.   Mattpat11
63 I called interference before he did. I'm just as bad as them I guess.
2008-09-06 19:49:06
66.   Dimelo
58 Yeah I know, I gots to chill on ARod but it is a lot of fun. Talking about ARod to an ARod "admirer" is like talking badly about Reagan to a neo-con.

Both camps just don't want to hear it.

2008-09-06 19:49:48
67.   monkeypants
62 Did they stop the play only after he was tagged out at 1B? In any case, that seemed like some goofy umping to me.
2008-09-06 19:49:58
68.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
I love Ken Singleton but.."You got to get up...to get down.." Huhh??
2008-09-06 19:50:15
69.   williamnyy23
65 My argument would have been the umpires shouldn't have stopped the play before its completion. It looked like the 1B umpire directed the runner toward 2B before Giambi had the chance to tag him.
2008-09-06 19:51:44
70.   Dimelo
Good job there, I was getting ready for a big inning.
2008-09-06 19:52:00
71.   Alex Belth
Flashing the leather!
2008-09-06 19:53:06
72.   Dimelo
68 That was bad, but I am so glad Kay isn't in the booth. I think Kay is the worse thing on YES.
2008-09-06 19:53:11
73.   williamnyy23
66 Kind of like Arod haters who refuse to accept or educate themselves about facts...I guess it's easier to be wrong.
2008-09-06 19:54:17
74.   williamnyy23
Arod, Griffey and Buhner
2008-09-06 19:54:55
75.   monkeypants
69 Yep, you're right--Rule 7.06 (b) stipulates that the play should continue, and penalties assessed only after the play ends.
2008-09-06 19:55:09
76.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
72 agreed...actually, maybe Kenny is a PE fan and was riffing on "911 Is A Joke"??
2008-09-06 19:55:21
77.   williamnyy23
74 Can't be Arod...must be Edgar?
2008-09-06 19:56:04
78.   Just fair
That youtube video is a riot. All it needs is Lamar Latrell breakdancing and Takashi banging on his gong.
2008-09-06 19:56:22
79.   Dimelo
I just read Girardi's comment about the Yankees still being in contention, is he CRAZY?
2008-09-06 19:56:36
80.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Cano.. .301 OPB!
2008-09-06 19:57:25
81.   williamnyy23
75 Maybe the umpires were fearful of what Giambi and Ponson might do if the play continued?
2008-09-06 20:00:41
82.   monkeypants
79 No, he's a coach, and he's supposed to say that stuff, at least until the organization publicly runs up the white flag. If Cashman and/or the owners would announce that they are playing out the string, that would free out Girardi to invoke a whole new set of cliches.
2008-09-06 20:01:12
83.   Dimelo
73 I guess I'm wrong or we just get different feeds of ARod's at-bats.

That's possible.

Your tv is equipped with showing ARod launching homeruns where the Yankees are winning pennants and championships. Mine is El Cheapo with just negative results of ARod's at-bats.

I must admit, I had a television a lot like yours - I'd constantly spout off stats about his greatness. I guess, like PE, I don't believe the hype anymore.

2008-09-06 20:01:50
84.   Dimelo
82 didn't Hank wave the white flag already?
2008-09-06 20:04:39
85.   Alex Belth
WoW! Great play by Alex there.
2008-09-06 20:05:40
86.   monkeypants
85 What feed do YOU have on your TV????

; )

2008-09-06 20:06:18
87.   OldYanksFan
Guys... nice responses to the "where is giambi in 2009" question. My take on your responses:
... While JD would propbably be our best option based on D, he is already one of our 'better' fielders in LF. Makes no sense to move him to 1st.
... Derek AIN'T being moved. His bat carries him as a slightly below average defensive SS. You want a .750-.775 OPS at 1B with no defensive experience?
... Dunn is a great bat, but Nady is not fast or athletic, and adding Dunn to the mix seems to be perpeuating the non-athletic/single dimensional player thing.
... Matsui makes the most sense only because his days in LF are over. He defense and range were terrible before his knees gave out. Having him at 1B at least adds to his value as opposed to being a pure DH.

While there are MANY reasons to let Jason walk, I don't think any of the above qualify. He has been healthy this year and is actually moving as good as I've seen Jason move. And we have all seen him makes scoops that JD/Jeter/Matsui/Posada/Dunn/Madonna might not.

Baseball players are expensive these days. Can you get sa FA with a .850+ OPS for under $12m? And how many years to you have to commit to that?

I have to guess Jason would love to stay on the Yanks and play in the new stadium. He won't play for free, but I'm sure he would give a few million a year to stay. I can't see him wanting to move to another team for his last 2 years.

Everyone says we can afford money, not propsects. Giambi at 2/$24ish is probably a below market deal.

Again, I don't think he is a great option, but outside of Tex, I really haven't seen a better one yet.

2008-09-06 20:10:30
88.   Alex Belth
Dag, he almost threw that away...
2008-09-06 20:15:22
89.   Mattpat11
I'm sure this has cemented fatty in the rotation for the rest of the season.
2008-09-06 20:15:22
90.   williamnyy23
83 Blame the TV...that's it!

86 Something tells me the problem isn't on the TV's end.

2008-09-06 20:15:53
91.   OldYanksFan
Say... who is that lithe, good looking pitcher we have for us today?
2008-09-06 20:16:54
92.   williamnyy23
87 As I posted in the previous thread, I think the Yankees main target on offense should be Manny. I also think that shouldn't preclude them from pursuing Texeira.
2008-09-06 20:17:42
93.   OldYanksFan
90 Sorry William, I HAVE to believe my eyes. On my TV, ARod is running over to the stands and copping feels from young girls. No wonder he has such a bad rep!
2008-09-06 20:18:07
94.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
87 Matsui at 1B a great idea..no ill will to Giambi but am ready to see him return to Oakland..
the defense needs upgrading, is Doug-Out still available for late-inning work?
2008-09-06 20:19:02
95.   monkeypants
89 Which doesn't make a whole lot of difference in any case, unless they resign him next season. At this point, giving his last four starts to Hughes or IPK doesn't matter all that much, no matter how galling it is to see Ponson on the mound.
2008-09-06 20:19:54
96.   Alex Belth
Hilarious spaz reaction by the pitcher there after throwing two nifty curves to Giambi.
2008-09-06 20:20:29
97.   OldYanksFan
92 Manny will want AT LEAST 3 years. You would go 3/$60? If he demands it, would you go 4/$80? Remember, he walked away from 2/$40 from the Sox.

SIGN THAT GUY FOR NEXT YEAR!!!!!!!!

2008-09-06 20:20:34
98.   williamnyy23
94 I liek Giambi personally, but his game has too many flaws that mitigate against his offense. Also, 2008 was a healthy year for Jason. If you bring him back and he breaks down, you can't throw your hands up next season.
2008-09-06 20:20:50
99.   nick
83 hatin' A-Rod isn't exactly an edgy anti-media-hype perspective these days--the hate IS the hype, far as I can tell....
2008-09-06 20:21:50
100.   OldYanksFan
94 "the defense needs upgrading"
You think Matsui, who has never played the position and moves like a rusty robot, will be BETTER on defense then Jason?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-09-06 20:22:06
101.   williamnyy23
95 True, but I want to see Hughes just so I can have a better feeling about him going into next year. I would think Girardi would want the same opportunity. I'd also think Hughes would too.
2008-09-06 20:23:01
102.   yankee23
6 Alex, I know you posted this a while ago but I just got here. Anyway, Safeco really is a beautiful park. Think Camden without the warehouse and with a nice skyline. Especially during evening games when the sun is setting.

Heck of a lot better than Nationals Park. That was a disappointment.

2008-09-06 20:23:10
103.   williamnyy23
97 Actually, at first he just wanted those two years picked up. If Manny is willing to takle a hefty 2-year deal, I do it in a heart beat. He is still a great hitter.
2008-09-06 20:24:19
104.   nick
according to RLYW, we have the worst defense in the majors; the easiest way to address that problem is to make damn sure neither Hideki nor Bobby are patrolling the corner OF positions...
2008-09-06 20:24:29
105.   monkeypants
94 98 Who stands a better chance of staying healthy--Matsui or Giambi? At this point in their careers, I'm not sure.

I still think the team should exercise Giambi's option and bring him back next season, then say goodbye. It is a risk that he will break down, sure. But I would like to think that they can get one 1B out of both him and Matsui.

2008-09-06 20:26:38
106.   Just fair
Because Cashman somehow got the Tigers to take Farnsworth, couldn't he somehow bamboozle them for Granderson. He'd look mighty fine in the new digs. Yes, I am well aware this is a ridiculous thought. : )
2008-09-06 20:26:38
107.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
100 Matsui much younger and a better athlete..he could make the move to 1st

102 Yankee23, what didn't you like about the Nationals park? I heard it was very nice...

2008-09-06 20:26:48
108.   monkeypants
Look at Giambi flash the leather!
2008-09-06 20:28:23
109.   williamnyy23
105 Neither am I. I wouldn't trust either, but only one is already under contract. That's why I would go after Tex and Manny. The cost for each wont be much more than you are paying Abreu and Giambi this year. Also, the cost for Manny next year wouldn't be much more than what you'd be paying Giambi in 2009.
2008-09-06 20:29:08
110.   Mattpat11
95 It's insult to injury.
2008-09-06 20:29:10
111.   monkeypants
107 Matsui is three years younger, but both are really on the wrong side of 30. Is Matsui really a much better athlete at this point? And does that really matter that much at 1B?
2008-09-06 20:29:12
112.   OldYanksFan
Cano has tried to steal 5 times this year, and has been caught 4 times.
2008-09-06 20:31:56
113.   williamnyy23
Very bad baserunning by Reed...he has to be on third base there.
2008-09-06 20:32:18
114.   monkeypants
110 True.

101 I agree. Frankly, at this point I would rather see the team give tryouts more players, even marginal "prospects" like Gardner.

2008-09-06 20:32:51
115.   Alex Belth
Bonzone!
2008-09-06 20:33:32
116.   yankee23
107 I think part of it was that I saw the Nationals play the Braves. A ticket in the 4th deck was $23 (the cheapest available) and the entire stadium felt like a concrete monster. I enjoyed the game for the most part, but I don't understand how a team that's so consistently horrible can charge so much for tickets. I'd much rather go to Camden and sit in the outfield bleachers for $15.

Not to mention that they have a "host" throughout the game who could be a Ryan Seacrest clone and their between-innings promotions are worse than I've seen at a Rookie level stadium. Not that I went for the promotions, but there's really no fan interaction to keep true fans hooked. Everyone in my section spent the entire game eating, waiting in line to get food, talking on their cell phones, and complaining about the lack of vendors (the beer guy only came through twice).

{/rant}

2008-09-06 20:34:31
117.   monkeypants
109 I really want no part of Tex, but that is an old argument. Sure, if the team has Tex and/or Manny, then dumping Giambi probably makes sense.
2008-09-06 20:34:47
118.   Dimelo
112 That's a bad % on any tv.
2008-09-06 20:36:14
119.   Mattpat11
112 Tim McCarver says he's speedy.
2008-09-06 20:37:06
120.   williamnyy23
Raul Ibanez has been a pretty good hitter for about 7 or 8 years. He is probably one of the lowest profile players in the game.
2008-09-06 20:37:08
121.   OldYanksFan
Does anyone on this planet think Manny will take a 2 year deal? The rumor is 4/$100m. This is silly Boras talk, but a number of teams would go 3/$60.

Yes, he is a great hitter still, but unlike in Fenway, he can't play LF in Yankee Stadium. So he is a full time DH for 3 years, which takes away our 'rest spot' for the other elderly on this team.

2008-09-06 20:37:29
122.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
it's Sidney's fault too..
http://tinyurl.com/5py34o
2008-09-06 20:39:08
123.   monkeypants
114 To continue...

Benching Pavano goes without saying. I know this is heresy to some, but I am not all that excited to see Pettitte starting the rest of the season. That's another 8 starts or so that could go to young pitchers.

2008-09-06 20:39:41
124.   Dimelo
man these advertisements on the banter are annoying:
"The Love Button"
"Push Me Hard!"

Don't they do any type of analysis on the target audience?

2008-09-06 20:40:29
125.   monkeypants
121 No way, no how Manny takes two years. He will get four...the only question is for how much.
2008-09-06 20:40:40
126.   williamnyy23
121 What teams can afford Manny, or have shown a willingness to take on a player like him? Probably the Mets, Dodgers and Yankees. So, the bidding wont be that aggressive. I think a 2yr/$45-50mn deal would get it done.

I think you could get away playing him 50/50 in the OF/DH. The Yankees have won with Matsui in LF and I don't think Manny is that much worse. He is such a good hitter that even defense as bad as his doesn't come close to canceling him out.

2008-09-06 20:42:11
127.   williamnyy23
123 Pettitte doesn't deserve to be taken out of the rotation. He still has capital.

Now, it may be petty, but why the Yankees would let Pavano audition for his next contract is beyond me.

2008-09-06 20:42:52
128.   Dimelo
126 I really, really hope he goes to the Mets.
2008-09-06 20:43:48
129.   monkeypants
The ol' walk-SB play...you don't see that very often!
2008-09-06 20:44:05
130.   Mattpat11
114 I said this in the last thread, but rather than waste time and infuriate me by using Gardner, I'd have a contest where every day a fan could take Brett's spot in the order and customary job of standing there and striking out looking.

On a related not, Singleton just made some comment about Damon working with Brett on his "stroke." Damon is now one of precious few who actually knows what Brett Gardner swinging a bat looks like.

2008-09-06 20:45:18
131.   williamnyy23
Does anyone remember if Hughes and IPK pitched well in Spring Training. WW has comments from Cashman insinuating that neither will be assured a starting slot next season, but would have to win a job in Spring Training. I wonder if they performed well enough this Spring to "win" a job.
2008-09-06 20:46:59
132.   monkeypants
127 I didn't mean that he deserves to ride the pine. I only meant that I would prefer to see Hughes or even IPK pitch than Pettitte, at this point in the season.

You're not being petty at all with Pavano. When they stuck him in the rotation a couple of weeks ago, it sort of made sense because the team still had a shot the post season. But they are playing for anything except next season. There is no reason to waste starts on Pavano.

2008-09-06 20:48:06
133.   Dimelo
Damon has become one of my favorite players, that guy is a monster.

I realize now why Sox fans were so hurt when he left them to come the Yanks - I'm sure the hurt was magnified a billion times more because he came to the Yanks - but he's a player and he pours his heart and soul out there.

He may have a spaghetti arm, but he sure knows what to do out there with the bat and knows how to run the bases well.

2008-09-06 20:48:13
134.   williamnyy23
130 Based on what little I've seen of Gardner's swing, Gardner would definitely stand to benefit from Damon's advice. I also think it's pretty impressive that Damon would work with him.

Amid all the disappointments of this season, Damon has really been a bright spot. He has become one of my favorite players on the team. There were a lot of questions about how well he would hold up, but I am very happy the Yankees signed him.

2008-09-06 20:48:33
135.   Alex Belth
Atta boy, Bobby!
2008-09-06 20:48:46
136.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
132 careful Monkeypants, looks like you were agreeing with William there...

and he's SAAAAAAFE! Bobby A with the 3-bagger

2008-09-06 20:49:28
137.   williamnyy23
133 Our TV's must have the same feed when Damon comes on the screen.
2008-09-06 20:50:31
138.   monkeypants
136 Hey, it's a long season. Anything can happen.
2008-09-06 20:50:34
139.   Mattpat11
So what do you guys think? With Silva going tomorrow, is Moose getting number 18?
2008-09-06 20:51:41
140.   williamnyy23
139 It's a great matchup for sure...and I am strangely looking forward to it.
2008-09-06 20:52:18
141.   williamnyy23
140 By "good", I meant favorable for Moose.
2008-09-06 20:52:21
142.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Jeepers..just looked at Silva's stats..and another reason for the putridity of the Ms season..

sorry bu A-Rod gets hit too much!

2008-09-06 20:52:31
143.   Alex Belth
Nice rip, Giambo!
2008-09-06 20:53:22
144.   monkeypants
142 Only on your TV.
2008-09-06 20:53:39
145.   yankster
116 I saw the nats beat the dodgers 2-1 last week from the 400's section. I bought a block of six = tickets for $48 from stubhub plus $10 transaction fee and there were many tickets at that price or lower.

Paying face at an empty stadium is not a good idea! I much prefer nats stadium to camden yards so far even though the nats stink up the joint. Maybe it's because the park is 12 minutes from my place and I can park my motorcycle across the street - it's just so easy. The sunsets from there have been amazing too. And the sight lines are decent from even the worst seats.

Go Giambi!

2008-09-06 20:53:57
146.   Dimelo
137 About time our tvs get in sync.

The Stache!

2008-09-06 20:54:36
147.   OldYanksFan
So William... in your attempt to get younger, more athletic and players who play the game right, you want to give Manny $50m to play LF/DH for the Yankees? I still say he won't go 2 years. It's not the money, but the playing time he wants to amass numbers.

Manny has 520 HRs. It will take him 3 years to get to 600. The guy is piling up historic numbers, and he is aware of it.

At 36, this is his last contract of size. I don't think he will take 2 years. ZERO chance.

TB might be interested. If Hafner is done, maybe Cleveland. How about a platoon of Vlad/Manny? There are plenty of takers.

2008-09-06 20:55:11
148.   OldYanksFan
Banter Poll: Who wants Manny for 3/$60m?
2008-09-06 20:55:46
149.   Mattpat11
134 I'm glad Damon is working with him. If we're going to keep him on the team and use him semi-regularly, there are worse guys to tutor him.

However, no amount of tutoring will make a difference if Brett goes up there every time with the sole gameplan of taking everything and hoping he gets four balls before three strikes.

2008-09-06 20:57:12
150.   Mattpat11
140 Moose winning 20 is the only thing that can save this mess of a year even a little. If he misses out, this season will be a total didaster.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-09-06 20:57:16
151.   OldYanksFan
By the way, was that HBP by Alex clutch OR WHAT?
2008-09-06 20:57:26
152.   Alex Belth
Nice. Cool to play a team suckier than our own. Man, I can't remember the last time the Yanks gave up a lead and then came roaring back like it was nothing...
2008-09-06 20:57:35
153.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
48 No. If only because he'd be forced to cut all his dreads off

Matsui is just a solid hitter..

2008-09-06 20:58:16
154.   Mattpat11
Anyone else think they should have caught Giambi's double?
2008-09-06 20:59:19
155.   OldYanksFan
The Yankes had 2 games recently where they were ahead but took the starter out after 4. Why not put in Moose for the 5th? It's sleazy, but he could pitch one inning and get a win. Moose deserves a break!
2008-09-06 21:00:39
156.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Off-topic: Congrats to Hakeem The Dream Olajuwon on his entry into the Hall of Fame..3rd best C of all time (after Kareem and Wilt), two-time champion and model for all Muslim-Americans on how to face prejudice and ignorance with dignity and patience..(Although big minus points for beating the Knicks in O.J. Summer of 95)...
2008-09-06 21:00:58
157.   Dimelo
151 I don't know what your TV is showing, but I saw him jack one out.
2008-09-06 21:01:33
158.   Mattpat11
Jim Thome passses Mantle.

That's just...not right.

2008-09-06 21:02:19
159.   williamnyy23
147 Whoaaa...I am not attempting to get younger, faster or more athletic. I am looking to get better. If you put Manny and Arod in the same lineup, I think they would really feed off each other and put up monster numbers.

If Cleveland was willing to dump C.C., there is no way they'd go after Manny. TB wasn't willing to spend any money to supplement their team down the stretch. I can't imagine them going for Manny. The Angels are also facing FA for Tex and Krod. They will have to pay Vlad after next season. I really doubt they'd be players.

2008-09-06 21:03:03
160.   williamnyy23
148 I'd give him 2/$50mn, so your deal would be a steal (my deal with a $10mn option year).
2008-09-06 21:03:09
161.   monkeypants
156 Not meaning to stir you up too much, do you have the highest ratio of posts about racism/prejudice of anyone on the Banter?
2008-09-06 21:03:18
162.   Dimelo
156 The Dream was always class.
2008-09-06 21:04:29
163.   williamnyy23
150 I was thinking about this and IF Moose wins 20 and that pushes him over the top for the Hall of Fame, I would consider this season more of a success than if the Yankees made the playoffs and were bounced in the first round.
2008-09-06 21:05:06
164.   Mattpat11
155 He really should have 20 already this year. He hasn't vultured many wins, but he's lost or ND a bunch of really nicely pitched games.
2008-09-06 21:05:10
165.   monkeypants
159 The comparison between CC and Manny does not hold. Cleveland knew CC will cmmand a six or seven year deal for megabucks. Manny is a different case--fewer years and (probably) fewer dollars, whether he is signed for two, three, or four years.
2008-09-06 21:06:15
166.   Dimelo
163 So personal achievements trump anything that can be accomplished by the team as a whole?
2008-09-06 21:07:17
167.   Mattpat11
163 Considering that I don't view losing in the playoffs as any kind of success, I'd agree.

I think he already should be a HOF lock, but I would love for this to cement it.

BTW, does he go in as a Yankee or O? If he plays another two years with us after this, he'll have comprable numbers with both teams.

2008-09-06 21:07:34
168.   monkeypants
155 That only works if the Yankees take the lead in the fifth, when Moose pitches. Otherwise, it would be up to the official scorer to give the win to the pitcher whom he thought was most effective.

The best chance for Mosse to win 20 might be for them to juggle the rotation and try to get him an extra start somehow. That and beating the hopeless M's tomorrow.

2008-09-06 21:08:11
169.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
161 not that I remember...just expressing appreciation to a great B-Baller who I admired even though he broke my heart (him and John Starks..)
2008-09-06 21:08:20
170.   Chyll Will
156 Grrr... no doubt Hakeem's the man, but the Knicks beat themselves. grumble-grumble Charles G. Smith 4x...
2008-09-06 21:08:51
171.   monkeypants
Randy Messenger. Now that is a great name for a reliever!
2008-09-06 21:09:37
172.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
168 If they don't jump all over Silva tomorrow the entire lineup should be forced to do the NY Times crossword with Moose...
2008-09-06 21:10:03
173.   williamnyy23
165 If the premise is that enough suitors (like Cleveland) would be interested that the years would reach 4, then I think the refusal to sign Sabathia (a young, homegrown pitcher coming of a CY) is applicable.

Even if you want to dismiss that comp, the Indians MO is not to spend that kind of money.

2008-09-06 21:11:29
174.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
170 Charles Smith...sigh...well, at this point I'd be thrilled with a .500 season...

sorry for b-ball chat just can't get too excited about this game...

any fans out there with thoughts on D'Antoni?

2008-09-06 21:11:51
175.   Mattpat11
172 His next two games are against the horrid Ms, and I believe the Rays, whom he owns this year.

Two more Jetes!

2008-09-06 21:12:52
176.   williamnyy23
166 My enjoyment as a Yankee fan encompasses all of their successes. I also relish both the team's and all of baseball history. Watching Moose's induction and being able to see his plaque at the Hall would mean more to me in the long run than the accomplishment of making the playoffs, but being bounced in the first round.
2008-09-06 21:13:18
177.   Dimelo
170 What did Charles Smith do in that series? I remember him that year against the bulls and being blocked every time he went up for the dunk. I don't remember anything significant in the year against the Rockets though.
2008-09-06 21:13:52
178.   williamnyy23
167 i think it's close enough that Moose would get the call. I think he has really liked being a Yankee and would opt for the interlocking NY.
2008-09-06 21:15:15
179.   williamnyy23
Great hustle by Abreu AND Jeter...how's that for an honest observation.
2008-09-06 21:15:32
180.   Chyll Will
174 An up-tempo coach stuck with only three players who could fit right in (Nate Robinson, David Lee and the new kid). I see improvement, but not playoffs.
2008-09-06 21:18:23
181.   Dimelo
180 Knick talk at this time of night is really depressing me. That's cue for me to go and light a J.
2008-09-06 21:20:33
182.   monkeypants
167 178 He would have the same number of years, but really, his numbers with the O's were so much better. Obviously the player is given a lot (all?) say as to what cap he wears on his plaque, but he really "should" go in as an Oriole. In either case, I hope he gets into the HOF, because I think that he is a no-doubter. Whether the voters agree is another story...
2008-09-06 21:21:48
183.   OldYanksFan
WTF is Joba doing in THIS game?
2008-09-06 21:22:47
184.   Dimelo
183 he's a baseball player, he can do it.
2008-09-06 21:22:53
185.   Chyll Will
177 You're right, he wasn't significant in that series, and was gone afterwards. It's just that his quadrille under the basket during that Bulls series was so bad, it never wore off. Never mind if Jordan, Pippen and Grant were hanging on him like knapsacks, that was just a mind-bending moment.
2008-09-06 21:23:11
186.   williamnyy23
182 Actually, the Hall of Fame has usually given the player little say, except in cases where they split their career among two teams. Mussina's best years were with Baltimore, but the tenure and performance is close enough that either team would not compromise the historical integrity of the Hall. I think Moose would have a big say in it.
2008-09-06 21:23:46
187.   williamnyy23
183 Innings! I hope he pitches two.
2008-09-06 21:24:05
188.   Max
174 180 I'm really looking forward to what D'Antoni can do with the team (I was a big Suns fan while he was coach), but they're going to be clearing salaries this year and rebuilding gradually. I'd be shocked if they got anywhere near the playoffs...too much deadwood, too little salary flexibility at this point.

william, that video was unbelievable. I think Hershiser's dancing will be giving me nightmares tonight.

2008-09-06 21:24:58
189.   monkeypants
186 That's true historically, but in recent years they have deferred to the player (such as the case of Winfield).
2008-09-06 21:26:05
190.   monkeypants
183 Getting the innings he needs so that we don't have to go through the whole eighth-inning guy debate again next year.
2008-09-06 21:26:52
191.   Dimelo
185 They could have been all over him, it's just the way it all went down that really ripped my heart out.
2008-09-06 21:27:12
192.   williamnyy23
189 Actually, I think historically they gave the player more say (e.g., Reggie), but since Boggs flirted with Tampa, they clamped down again. Besides, Winfield is a case like Moose. I think either hat preserves historical integrity.
2008-09-06 21:29:06
193.   williamnyy23
If I was the Yankees I would send Joba to winter ball to get 40 innings or so and then give him an extra month off. I would start his ST in mid-March and then have him join the rotation in early May. I wouldn't even toy with the idea of having start the year in the bullpen.
2008-09-06 21:29:15
194.   Chyll Will
181 Lo siento, amigo, I just couldn't help myself. If I start sounding like Mattpat, it's because of the Knicks. Or should I say the the Cablevishits... enjoy the J, I'm going ta bed (gotta be an early riser tomorrow, bleah)...
2008-09-06 21:30:35
195.   williamnyy23
Are you kidding me? Girardi is living in a fantasy world! Does he really not trust Joba here? Maybe he doesn't have enough experience either.
2008-09-06 21:30:45
196.   OldYanksFan
This sucks!
I'm sayin it now. Joba and Cano for Ichiro!
2008-09-06 21:33:45
197.   williamnyy23
This is the 5th time in 2+ weeks that Girardi has gone to Mo for more than one inning. Burning out Mariano in an attempt to chase a pipe dream would really be tragic.
2008-09-06 21:33:55
198.   Dimelo
195 I would have left him in there too.

193 that's a good idea, but I just don't see them doing that. I wish they would because it would keep his innings progression on pace with what they were hoping.

194 Esta bien!! Buenas noche!

2008-09-06 21:35:07
199.   monkeypants
192 Reggie is pretty recent as a historical comparison. Winfield's case was pretty weird, because he probably would not have made it into the hall if he did not amass counting stats playing on a bunch of teams late in his career. Really, SD and NY represented each only 1/3 of his career. But he actually played more seasons for NY, he was most famous for NY, and he had arguable a better career in NY than in SD.

So in that way, the Moose case is not really parallel with Winfield. Unless something weird happens, Moose will finish his career with the same or fewer years with NY, fewer wins, and worse numbers.

On the grand scheme I don't care that much. But if I bother to care, I think that it would be disappointing if he did not go into the HOF as an Oriole.

2008-09-06 21:40:33
200.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Safeco plays COtton-Eyed Joe...that's it, I'm off to the Brazil-Fest here in town
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-09-06 21:40:43
201.   williamnyy23
199 Reggie is recent, but came before Boggs. I think his flirting with TB is what made the Hall get more strict.

I think what the Hall of Fame is trying to do is make sure that the player wears the hat of a team that is historical accurate (i.e., when you think of that player, what team comes to mind as much as how well did he do with that team). The reason I think Moose and Winfield are similar cases is because both men spent a similar amount of time with their two possible teams, and both are very identifiable by each one.

2008-09-06 21:43:48
202.   Alex Belth
Rough spot for Tug...Welcome to the bigs, bro.
2008-09-06 21:45:31
203.   williamnyy23
From the horse's mouth:

Who decides what team logo will be used on Hall of Fame plaques?

The choice of which team's logo appears on a player's plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history Museum, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark.

2008-09-06 21:47:00
204.   OldYanksFan
ohoh... IT'S MIGGY!
2008-09-06 21:49:16
205.   monkeypants
201 True. The whole wearing a hat thing is a quaint holdover from an age where you could count on star players (usually) spending most or all of their careers with the same team. I think it would be better to ditch the hats and just players in as individuals, but that won't happen.

Anyway, nice win by the boys tonight.

2008-09-06 21:49:19
206.   williamnyy23
203 With which team did Moose make a more indelible mark? If you go on performance, it would be Baltimore, but I think Mussina has also left his mark as a Yankee. If he wins 20 as a Yankee and especially if he wins 300, I think it would almsot entirely be Moose's call. If that's the case, I think he would select the Yankees.
2008-09-06 21:51:53
207.   monkeypants
203 That's what the HOF says, and has said for years. What they actually do, however, does not always square with their own stated procedure. What hat is Fisk wearing on his plaque?
2008-09-06 21:54:30
208.   williamnyy23
207 Red Sox, which I think is his most indelible mark.
2008-09-06 21:55:11
209.   williamnyy23
207 Also, the Hall did make Gary Carter wear the Expos hat, so I think they have taken this more seriously since Boggs.
2008-09-06 21:56:25
210.   OldYanksFan
True about Fisk. He is a Red Sox through and through... even being from NH. I think he wanted to go in as a White Sox because he was angry at the Red Sox for how he was released. This was a mistake by the hall.

Fisk waving his WS HR fair is a classic moment. Who cares that he played on the White Sox?

2008-09-06 21:57:25
211.   OldYanksFan
Oops... Fisk IS in as a Red Sox? Didn't realize. That is the correct call.
2008-09-06 21:58:12
212.   monkeypants
206 20 wins or not, there is no doubt in my mind that he left a more indelible mark with Baltimore. One statistically fluky season at age 38 does not outweigh the indelibility of his early Baltimore career. For most of his time in Baltimore he was one of the "faces" of the organization (Ripken was Mr. oriole, of course); that has never really been the case with the Yankees.

Again, I think the whole practice of putting players in wearing a cap is silly and antiquated, so on the grand scheme I don't really care all that much. But based on the HOF's own stated criteria, I have a hard time seeing any argument for Moose-in-Yankee-cap.

2008-09-06 21:58:43
213.   underdog
Since Cliff posted here earlier about his distaste for Mark Grace as an analyst, he (and you) may enjoy this brand new piece on FJM referring to something in the Dodgers-Dbacks game today. Warning: Contains Eckstein references. Proceed with caution.

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/

2008-09-06 21:59:24
214.   williamnyy23
210 Fisk and the Red Sox burried the htachett when he was elected and I think he wanted to go in with the B. Since then, Fisk has had his number retired and become a most favored member of RSN.
2008-09-06 22:00:10
215.   monkeypants
208 I thought Fisk was put in with his cap backwards, so that he would "honor" neither team (since he was pissed at both). This was done as a concession by the HOF because he threatened to boycott the ceremony. Or at least that is how I recall it.
2008-09-06 22:00:33
216.   Alex Belth
Nice to see Mr. Mo again. Worth staying up for. Zip Zip Zip. Nice and quick.
2008-09-06 22:02:18
217.   Mattpat11
206 Its worth noting that if Moose wins 300 as a Yankee, he will certainly have more wins and probably more years, and possibly more strikeouts as a Yankee than as an Oriole.
2008-09-06 22:02:47
218.   monkeypants
210 "Who cares that he played on the White Sox? "

He did set the then record for HR by a catcher with the White Sox. And that was not in a tack-on year--his career numbers for the WS were pretty good.

2008-09-06 22:03:42
219.   williamnyy23
212 I don't know...Moose pitched on some pretty mediocre Oriole teams. I also don't really think the O's had faces....they had one face, Mr. Ripken. Since coming to the Yankees, Mussina has had a higher profile and also pitched in many more post season games. I think there's a chance that when all is said and done, more people will remember Moose as a Yankee than an Oriole. At least, I think it is close enough that I wouldn't say the Hall of Fame was compromising its principle.
2008-09-06 22:05:39
220.   monkeypants
215 But on this point I appear to be incorrect.
2008-09-06 22:05:42
221.   williamnyy23
215 I'm pretty sure he is wearing an ugly B.

From Wikipedia:
Fisk was inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2000 choosing the Boston Red Sox cap for his plaque, although he played for more seasons with the Chicago White Sox.

2008-09-06 22:11:49
222.   monkeypants
219 I would be careful about the "people remember" argument. As a kid, I never really knew Fisk played for the Red Sox...he was always a longtime White Sox player to me. It is the job of the HOF to determine where a player made his "indelible mark", whatever that means. His higher profile with the Yankees is largely a product of the Yankees' higher profile as an organization. I'm not convinced that is what the HOF means by leaving an indelible mark. Moose has been more or less unremarkable with the Yankees. Good and even very good at times, but his Yankees career has not been particularly noteworthy. He was an ace for the Orioles for years. That, in my opinion, is indelible.
2008-09-06 22:12:16
223.   monkeypants
221 see 220 .
2008-09-06 22:14:11
224.   monkeypants
221

And the proof:

http://tinyurl.com/5oqbgc

2008-09-06 22:15:32
225.   monkeypants
Now, I really hope Sheffield makes it into the HOF...I guess as a Marlin?
2008-09-06 22:17:40
226.   williamnyy23
222 By people will remember, I mean in 20 or 30 years, when people who barely saw Moose play, more people will associate him with the Yankees. I never saw Fisk play for Boston, yet I think of him as a Red Sox.

Also, the Yankees higher profile has definitely played a role in raising Mussina's, but that's part of the equation. Ultimately, I think "more people" will remember Mussina as a very good pitcher on some very good Yankee teams (and those battles with Pedro) than being a great for a few years on some mediocre Oriole teams. To me, at least, context is a major contributor to being indelible. It's kind of like a tree falling in the forest with no one around.

2008-09-06 22:19:49
227.   williamnyy23
225 He might pull a Catfish and choose no one. That would be very fitting for Sheffield.
2008-09-06 22:21:59
228.   williamnyy23
Until tomorrow...let's go Moose!
2008-09-06 22:23:26
229.   monkeypants
226 I understand your point, but I'm not sure that it does (or rather, should) factor into indelible. One of the reasons for the five year waiting period is to allow emotion over a player subside, and so that the HOF can place the player in his historical context. Moose's indelible mark on the game came with Baltimore, not NY. That more fans were in the stands or tuning in on TV just doesn't count as much for me, and (I hope) not as much for the HOF.

But like I said all along, I would not have players go in with caps on in the first place.

2008-09-06 22:25:50
230.   monkeypants
227 Aha! I was confusing Hunter with Fisk. So, there is precedent for players not being designated on a specific team.
2008-09-07 07:50:38
231.   OldYanksFan
"As a kid, I never really knew Fisk played for the Red Sox...he was always a longtime White Sox player to me"
------------------------------------
Fisk's HR in the Sox WS is one of the top 10 WS moments. He was already a premiere Catcher when on the Sox. He and Munson were considered 1 and 2. He didn't matter who he played for after the Sox. His longevity and productivity came with the White Sox, but he was ALREADY famous on the Red Sox.

To me, Reggie Jackson was 'on his way' as an Athletic. Giambi was famous as an Athletic.
Doc Gooden was famous as a Met.
Bobby Murcer was a Yankee. Even if he didn't come back and ended up with more years on other teams... he was a Yankee.

Because of free agency, players move around. If we look at a pitchers 'win' or the number of years, small market teams that develop/invest in a player who becomes a potential HOFer with them, will never have anyone who goes in under their cap.

Many guys establish themselves as greats with a certain team, even though they might end up playing more years with another team. But that is bacause of free agency.

I'm sorry MP. EVERYONE knows that Carlton Fisk IS a Red Sox (even if it makes people in Chicago unhappy. I mean... just because you are too young to remember...)

2008-09-07 10:34:30
232.   monkeypants
231 The point I was making is that, of course, EVERYONE does not know Fisk was a Red Sock, or associate him more with the RS than WS. That is one of the reasons why the HOF exists, to preserve the historical record even as fans' memories distort and forget.

William was arguing that more people would remember Moose as a Yankee, and that may be true. But that would be no different from more people remembering Fisk as a White Sock.

Otherwise, I agree with the general sentiment of your post. That is why Moose should be associated with the O's even if he does linger around even for four more years with the Yanks and win 300 games with them.

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