Oh well...another pathetic performance from an increasingly disinterested team. I guess it was a bad sign when Arod said the Yankees would have to play every remaining game as if it was playoff. Judging by the past few seasons, that pretty much means the Yankees are ready to go into the tank.

The offense continues to be futile, but once again, they get an assist from Girardi. He refuses to conceed that his offense isn't productive and refuses to get creative with men in scoring position. He also refuses to construct a lineup that takes advantage of the team's few remaining strengths. Why he decided to sit Damon and have Christian AND Cabrera in the same lineup is beyond me, especially with Giambi riding the pine. Aside from Arod, Giambi and Damon are the only productive bats (Abreu probably belongs in that group), so how Girardi thought it was best to begin this series with such a weak lineup is beyond me. To add insult to injury, in the bottom of the 8th, Girardi refuses to pinch hit for Melky and Christian, meaning Giambi and Damon were never used. I'd like to think that Girardi realized the Yankees only chance to win was an 8th inning rally against Perkins, and not a 9th inning rally against Nathan. Right? I am afraid to find out the real answer.

This team is pretty much dead...it's approaching the point of embarassing. Meanwhile, Girardi continues to raise red flags about his ability to manage pennant race baseball. If it was only about 2008, it wouldn't be so worrisome, but this team is going to need a major overhaul if it has any hopes of winning a playoff series anytime soon.

1 Check out the AA and AAA rosters, and the available free agents. Unless Cash has got a kick-ass trade up his sleeve, there is no major overhaul on the near horizon. The pieces to accomplish that just aren't there.

I don't think things are as bad as you do, william, but clearly some things need to change. I do not feel that Girardi is one of them. I'd prefer he not sit both Giambi and Damon against lefties, but in fairness, it is turf and both are older guys who could probably use the rest.

In the meantime, there's always tomorrow!

PS - I've said a lot of nasty things about Sidney Ponson before. He did a great job tonight, and has just about every time out in pinstripes this year. Bravo, sir. Given his run support before tonight (IIRC, ~7 runs/game!), this was bound to happen.

OK..after hearing Girardi's comments, I'm kind of depressed. If that mentality is going to be managing the Yankees for the next few years, they are in trouble.

First off, Girardi foolishly stated that Christian played because he has hit well against lefties. Does Joe really make decisions based on 23 ABs? I also wonder if he knew that Perkins has struggled against lefties? Apparently not. Even more bewildering, however, is why it was a question of Christian or Damon. What about Melky? He has been so bad as a righty that starting him over Damon is incompentence pure and simple. Even more comical is Girardi stated he liked the idea of having Damon and Giambi off the bench...sounds great...too bad he didn't use them in the 8th when the situation screamed for it.

I don't think there is anyway around it. Girardi is not a good game manager.

As an aside, it's pretty sad that Sydney Ponson has emerged as one of the more reliable and accountable members of this team.

2 Texeira, Manny and C.C. would be a major overhaul. Precisely because there aren't many offensive prospects on the horizon is why the Yankees need to dip back into the free agent market. A healthy Joba, Phil and Wang is enough to anchor the rotation with C.C, and it definitely looks like the team has enough bullpen arms.

I know I've been beating the same drum about this team being mediocre, but that is becoming evident. I really wish I was wrong, but years and years of watching baseball is hard to ignore, and my gut tells me this team just isn't very good. Having a manager in denial doesn't help.

On a lighter note, the Almighty Supremebeing Allah was arrested today:

http://tinyurl.com/6govfa

Seems likes he should have been omnipotent to get out of the arrest or omniscent to predict that a road block was coming.

I posted this late on the last thread. Then I saw Alex's new post and, well, I think my question is answered:

231. monkeypants
Meanwhile, Pete Abe is pretty much mocking Girardi for sitting Damon today. He also had this entry:
========
UPDATE, 6:42 p.m.: Damon is out of the lineup because Girardi decided not to play him. That's it.
"I put a lineup up," Girardi said. "Johnny's played a lot."
If turf is the issue, why not DH Damon and play Nady in left? Damon is hitting .292 against lefties.

Meanwhile, Girardi would not discuss the final play of yesterday's game, refusing to get into it other than to say it has been addressed just like everything else has been addressed.
==========

I wonder if the media will begin to turn on Girardi? Or maybe it already has (I don't read print sports, so I don't know what the buzz is)?

5 I just saw that. pretty funny...sort of like Star Trek V when old man Kirk asked "God" what he needed with a star ship!

Ok, positives for tonight...well, Pat Venditte did throw another hitless inning for Staten Island, continuing my hope of seeing him pitch in the majors. Other positives, well, no one got caught stealing, um...no errors. Ponson was pretty good, Edwar didn't give up a grandslam. That's about all I've got, anyone else?

8 like i said in the game thread ... this mess was over quickly.

6 also from petey:

Kim Jones of the YES Network started to ask Joe Girardi a question about his sitting Johnny Damon. It was the one question that had to be asked. But before she could finish, he cut her off.

"Justin Christian has had a lot of success off of left-handers for us and has played very well," he said. "That is why Justin Christian played.

8 Real progress was made in self-identification and respecting diverse cultures. So far we have avoided total protonic reversal (though He Who Must Not Be Named lurks in rehab)... Mattpat learned to stop worrying and love the bomb...

and I pass the mic to:

10 That would make so much more sense if it was an illeism...

10 although i believe that i would have gone with something like ... "alex said that this was game was like a playoff game tonite ... is this what you would consider your "playoff" lineup?"

13 No, A-Rod would be batting eighth, ;). I kid, I kid.

I feel like the Yankees just lost an elimination game. While I generally like General Joe, after the LA trip, we needed our best team on the field today. We needed a Win today. Sitting Giambi AND JD? I don't get it. JC and Melkdud in the same game?

I don't know if it's the lack of greenies or what. This team is playing like they are crashing. As much as I am usually for Melky's glove in CF, his bat is so depressing, I'm happy to see an OF of Nady, JD and Abreu.

I am simply stunned how poorly they have played of late. They are playing like they are defeated and just waiting for the eventual outcome.

This team, injuries and all, is too talented to play this badly. I will watch, root and pray, but I am now detached. I will root for Moose, some more solo HRs from our MVP, a .900+ OPS for Giambi (as predicted), a good game from Phil or IPK. And try to figure out how to deal with an October without Yankee baseball.

Maybe Manny will break his foot.

15 I can't really muster the energy to get angry or even disappointed any more. This team has pushed me right through to bored. They are simply uninteresting. Oh sure, Moose is a nice story--probably my favorite of the year. And A-rod is A-Rod, he's great and I probably don't appreciate his achievement enough. BUt still, this team just bores me.

And it's not the losses or the bad defense or the lack of scoring or even Girardi's increasingly robotic managerial decisions.

No, it's just that I can't really find a way to care about the players. Or something like that. When I suffered through the brutal late 80s and early 90s I was much younger and less jaded and more impressionable when it came to baseball. Any young player the Yankees trotted out was a prospect and I git excited. To be sure they awful, most of them. But in a way it was more exciting.

But this year has been such a drag. I had braced myself for a rough season, a transition year, and so forth. But I was excited about Hughes, and Kennedy, and Melky, and Cano. I was excited about the young BP arms. I was excited about Joba. I was even excited about Gardner waiting in the wings. And all of them failed. And they didn't just fail--they got hurt or they were so awful that they were demoted, so I can't even enjoy the pain of watching young kids struggle. Instead, I get to watch Sidney Ponson...who has been better than we could hope...and he's just so borng.

It's all been a bore, except for Joba, who then got hurt.

I'm not sure what I am looking for, for the rest of the season. I'm not even sure if what I wrote has been coherent. I'm probably just tired and cranky and whiny...and maybe at the core I really am a spoiled, entitled Yankees fan. Maybe if the team was winning I would be more 'exciting." I don't know.

But I do know that right now I am a whole lot less interested in this team than I was in April. Maybe September call-ups will cheer me up.

16 i guess the way that i would put it is this, i would be interested in watching us fail, if i felt like i was watching the rise of the next good yankees team ... this team, however, is very much not about the future and there's a very present reality that much of it will not return ... especially given that none of the soon-to-be departed were yankee greats or even members of the WS championship teams, there's little to look forward to, not even nostalgia for the past ...

I'm more convinced than ever that Joe Girardi has a giant roulette wheel in his office filled with completely pointless, random MOVEZ. Every once in a while, when he thinks he needs to make a MOVE, he spins it, and follows it blindly without regards to context or relevancy .

This is, how, for example, he does things like sit the batting champion in favor of a career minor leaguer in the middle of a three game losing streak, or pinch run for the trail runner in the ninth inning and then refuse to put on a play.

Nothing he does ever makes any sense because it was never intended to.

16 Jeter is going to pass Babe Ruth in all time Yankee hits and Mussina might win 20. Little milestones to look forward to.

17 Maybe that's what it is--the sort of dead man walking feeling to the team. As they remained mired in mediocrity, there is less and less chance the front office will consider bringing back much of the personnel. Add to that so many players who are starting solely due to injury, and you end up with a whole team of placeholders--and placeholders who are neither poised to win now, nor set up to win in the future, nor do they invoke the past.

It's just hard to get emotionally attached to Nady and Pudge and Sexson in a season like this.

And man, think about the list of starters who are not coming back, or at least stand a good chance of not coming back:

Pettitte
Mussina
Giambi
Abreu
Christian
Pudge
Sexson
Ponson
Cabrera (unlikely, but the team may punt after the season)
and maybe a reliever or three.

It's just about the half the active roster, possibly.

19 Yeah, I know. I can't get too excited about Moose winning 20--it's a nice story but largely irrelevant (18, 19, 20, the story would still be just as good in some ways). Jeter passing Ruth is neat, but he's under contract until 2010 (IIRC) and barring catastrophic injury that milestone is inevitable. I'm much more excited about the much more difficult milestone: Jeter's 3000th hit. he would be the only Yankee ever to do (wth the Yankees that is), and given the possibility that he may be going into real decline, getting another 500+ hits before his contract runs out is not a given.

Unfortunately, none of the little milestones really grab me this year. I think one of my problems is that I set myself up in April to get very excited about the kids. And they pretty much disappointed, except not-injured Joba.

Are they gone?
...Pettitte - better then 50% he's back, unless he's injured now
...Mussina - better then 60% he's back
...Giambi - Interesting. I think it's either Tex or Jason
...Abreu - Again, older and in decline, but who's his better replacement? Still, better then 50% he's gone
...Christian - Why would he be gone? Not much trade value.
...Pudge - hmmmmmm... can we have a 70+ yr old catcher(s) at $25m? Unfortunately, the Posada issue is a tough one. He's great if he catches, but isn't that valueable as a DH (.800ish OPS) and worse as a 1Bman. My guess is they re-sign him and if/when Po is a healthy, viable catcher, trade him and eat some salary.
...Sexson - If they keep Jason, they might keep sexy... so they can have a big lug from each side of the plate. But most likely gone.
...Ponson - They might keep him and use him as trade bait (ala Farns) if our pitching is healthy
...Cabrera (unlikely, but the team may punt after the season) - Was trade bait This year, but his stock is so low, demoting him would probably be better then trading him for a bag of balls.
...and maybe a reliever or three. - well, who cares.

It's funny.... many of us were looking to 'dumping' a bunch of old deadwood. But you have to get decent replacements. Do you really want DougOut on first instead of Jason? Abreu's going downhill, but outside of Dunn, who replaces him? The Sox have Bay and we have Nady. There just aren't that many exciting FAs out there this winter.

I thought we would have a whole new team next year, but I'm beginning to wonder. Joba and Phil are both on IP limits. IPK might be out of the mix. Is Horne healthy? We might NEED one, if not both of Andy and Moose.

The no-brainers seem to be Tex, CC and (throw up in mouth) Manny. But many here and elsewhere say no to these guys for price/contract length/belly fat/bad hair issues.

It will be a shitty fall, but an interesting winter.

Per PeteAbe:
Kim then asked Girardi whether he thought the team looked flat.
"No, I didn't think so," he said.
In other news, Girardi is looking forward to an overwhelming vistory in Iraq and $2/gallon gasoline.

I find this thread to be particularly depressing..well, next year ahoy!

I actually wouldn't mind Minky, in place of some of the players we do have. He's wreaking havoc as a Pirate. (As the Mets found out yesterday.) And he's playing 3B and corner outfielder as well as first. I think he'd make a fine utility guy. Though perhaps right-handed would be better.

"There just aren't that many exciting FAs out there this winter."

But this is why Cashman gets paid a couple of million a year and we don't. It's his job to field the best possible team without sacrificing the future teams. Frankly, I don't think he's done his job. And it pains me to say that because I've been one of his biggest supporters. I'm not sure who or how many of the current Yankees are his responsibility, but this team is old and in decline. His deals this year have been to bring in a (albeit necessary) 38 year old catcher, a 30 year old OFer, and a 33-year old reliever.

There's absolutely no help in AAA, one interesting piece in AA, and some potential bats in A that are 2-3 years away. This team is on Cashman. I don't think the solution is going out and dropping $200 million on CC and Teixeira will solve anything, but I'm afraid that's the only position the Yankees have put themselves into.

In other good news, the US softball team destroyed Venezuela 11-0 in 5 innings as the mercy rule came into effect. Venezuela had no hits.

Who needs "exciting FA's?" I certainly don't. I don't need a superstar or even an all star at every position. I'll take a decent ballplayer who can hit a bit, and play some defense. Everything else will fall into place. I would have no problem with, say, a Delucci-Christian platoon in LF. Using that as an example, as LF will be manned by some combination of Damon/Matsui/Nady/Cabrera.

It's easier to get position players than it is pitching. That the farm is stocked with the latter is of little concern to me, especially given the injury history of the starting staff.

Having a part-timer like Dellucci is fine when there are guys that can make up for his lack of offense at other positions. Unfortunately, with this squad, it's already Alex Rodriguez and 6-7 David Delluccis.

I think "exciting" is probably the wrong word, but the point remains, the Yankees are below average offensively and defensively at most positions. They can't afford to just bring in bench players and expect that to solve their offensive malaise. They could afford a Chad Curtis in LF during the 90s because they had a prime Jeter at SS, a prime Bernie in CF, an improving Posada, etc. Outside of O'Neill, the average age of say the 98 starters was 29.1 compared to 31.2 of the current Yankees (which is generous because Melky is so young, but worthless with the bat). Unfortunately, I don't think that bringing in an expensive, impact position player will solve anything either.

And this situation falls squarely on the architects of these recent Yankee teams. They kept trying to build a win-now team and those don't age well. I think Cano will rebound next year, but other than him, I don't see a single player capable of improving next season. Posada will most likely be better than Molina/Moeller/Rodriguez, but there's a fair chance for him to be league average, which will force the Yankees to depend on production elsewhere. Having Matsui back would be nice, but next season, at 35, how much can he be depended on?

I don't think that the Yankees can go into a season depending on a combination of catching lightning in a bottle with some platoons and thirty-somethings not getting injured and/or declining. But there's not much out there, which suggest to me that they won't be a play-off team next either - there are a lot of holes that need fixing.

29 "I think "exciting" is probably the wrong word, but the point remains, the Yankees are below average offensively and defensively at most positions."

Are you referring to the injury-replacement squad, or the starters? In either case, I think you overstate the argument. The Yankees are above aver offensively at at 1B, 3B, SS (yes, Jeter's poor numbers are still better than average for the position), RF (ditto for Abreu), LF (Damon/Matsui), and C (Posada/Pudge).

We simply grew accustomed to the Yankees having staggering advantages at many positions, and bad players who didn't hit all that badly (Chad Curtis > Melky). Now, the above average performances are less above average, and the poor performances...

29 Unfortunately, with this squad, it's already Alex Rodriguez and 6-7 David Delluccis.

According to Lee Sinins' ATM reports (as of last sunday), these are the guys who are "hurting the team" for lack of a better term;

RCAA
Ivan Rodriguez -1
Justin Christian -1
Derek Jeter -7
Wilson Betemit -8
Jose Molina -16
Robinson Cano -17
Melky Cabrera -21

You have 3 starters on that list, 4 if you want to include Rodriguez, who is close enough to average. Hardly the bleak picture you paint.

As for your other points, Posada should be better than Molina/Moeller/Rodriguez, but even at league average, Posada will be an improvement. Matsui will probably put up numbers close to his 2007 season, with a bit of a hit to his SLG (which peaked in 2004 and has declined every year since). Is it reasonable to say he will post numbers similar to Abreu?

They don't need to sign an impact player, though obviously it would be nice. They'd be in better shape if Jeter, Cano and others were capable of playing the way they are capable, decline or no.

There are too many variables to consider before writing off the 2009 season.

30 The projected starters from this year for next season, plus I'm taking defense into account as well. Abreu is the very definition of average (6th of 11 regular RFers in OPS in the AL) and a horrid defender, which makes him decidedly below average. And well, Posada isn't at catcher and I can't make much of projection for him next year. Damon, while above average in OPS, is closer to the middle of the pack than he is to the two hitters in front of him. Plus, next year, he's 35 and has a pretty solid track record of flip-flopping .850 OPS seasons with .750 ones.

Right now, the offensive bright spots are 3B and 1B (which also happen to be the two guys that are hideous with RISP). And with his defense, Jeter is an average SS. There's nothing wrong with that, but it just means that Jeter's not helping to carry the weaker position players anymore, thus Yankees need more from the other positions and they're not getting it.

If Nady replaces Abreu next season, the only player that can be reasonably expected to improve next year is Cano. I think Damon in left is fine, and Posada will bounce back to be better than average. But I think that's a lot to ask of two mid-30s guys and that's worrisome. Even if Cashman swaps out Giambi for Teixeira, the offense isn't improved and will likely decline.

I'm probably pessimistic, but the Yankee regulars aren't spring chickens and most hitters in their 30s decline. It's hard to argue that they will get better or put up their career average. And as for younger hitters who are improving and could do better, the Yankees have only one and not much on the farm that can help next year.

31 Old age, injuries, and decline all go hand in hand and there's nothing in the system to prop these guys up. If they're going to contend next year they need a strong year from the starting staff and improved defense. Other fans can put on the rose-colored glasses and expect three 35 year olds and a 38 year old to rebound and find the fountain of youth. I'm not going to be one of them. I've watched enough baseball in my life and followed careers from beginning to end. My expectations are tempered.

32 I agree with your assessment in general. I was just pointing out that you overstate the case (IMO). This team is not terrible offensive--we haven't even begun to see terrible yet. They are mediocre, and they are certainly not below average at most positions.

As for Posada, this year catchers are hitting .718 OPS (93 OPS+). Even seriously injured Posada was hitting.775 OPS (107 OPS+). Yeah, there's chance he'll be league average, but t he odds are on his side that he'll out-produce most major league catchers. The greater fear is injury.

33 Other fans can put on the rose-colored glasses and expect three 35 year olds and a 38 year old to rebound and find the fountain of youth.

They don't need to rebound or find the fountain of youth. Hell, the two suckiest players on the team are also the two youngest. They need to play to the level they are capable.

35 I'm not even sure that's a response.

Raf, what do you see happening next year that makes this team better?

36 It's a response centered around you pointing out the old guys on the team. The young guys are the ones that aren't doing the job.

What am I looking for? Increased production from Jeter, Cano, and whomever's playing CF, putting Melky on the bench. Posada being productive moves Molina to the bench, where he belongs. Speaking of the bench, it will probably be reworked this offseason. ARod has shown a pattern where he alternates very good years with MVP-caliber years.

Whether we want to or not, unless Hughes or Kennedy are traded, we will see them next year.

I don't know who will be signed for the outfield (Nady, Matsui, Damon, Cabrera, etc will probably be back next year), for 1b, or for the pitching staff.

Despite the struggles this year, the team isn't as bad as it's being made out to be.

37 All two of them? Melky, I think, is toast. Which hurts, because I've been a supporter of his for the last couple of seasons, but at some point they have to recognize he's not a ML starting OFer right now and probably won't be. Cano (who since May 1st, has hit .301/.332/450), however, is a different story. I think it's much more reasonable to expect him to improve next year and be very productive. I can't say the same thing for the rest of the lineup outside of A-Rod and Giambi or Teixeria, which is just like this season.

And, really, my point is less that they're a bad team (like the Royals or Mariners), but that they're a mediocre team with little potential for necessary improvement. The pitching staff can be worlds better next year, but the offense/defense is dependent on a lot of old guys not continuing their decline and/or getting injured. All without significant help in the AAA/AA hopper.

32 "Abreu is the very definition of average (6th of 11 regular RFers in OPS in the AL) and a horrid defender, which makes him decidedly below average"

So Bobby Abreu is below average because of OPS and the subjective determination that he is a horrid defender? (really he won the Golden Glove 3 years ago, guess he forgot how to field since than. He also has 9 assists, 3 double plays and only 1 error for the season and I really don't remeber those Yankees games we lost because of Abreu's poor defense).

Regarding his offense OPS is only one of many factors (and his is quite respectable at .826). He is 7th in the AL in RBI's, 14th for total hits, tied for 11th for doubles, 16th for runs, 16th for total bases, tied for 18th for xbh's, tied for 20th in walks and he leads the Yankees in most of those categories (or is right behind Arod).

In the 24 games since the All-Star break he has batted .344 with a .406 OBP, scored 23 runs, knocked in 18 rbi's, gotten 13 xbh's (5 hrs and 8 doubles) and walked 10 times.

Not bad for an old man, huh? Always strong in the second half of the season, he is trying to get the Yankees into the playoffs

Look there are a lot of things wrong with the Yankees right now but Bobby Abreu is not one of them. Maybe they will not resign him next year, if that is the case the Yankees will be worse off for the loss and some other team will be more than happy to snatch him up and he can produce for their team.