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Minnesota Twins III: Back Where We Started Edition
2008-08-11 12:55
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

 
UntitledThree weeks ago, the Twins arrived in the Bronx holding a two-game lead over the Yankees for second place in the Wild Card race. The Yanks swept past Minnesota in that week's three game series, but have since fallen back into the back. As a result, the Yankees head into Minneapolis tonight once again trailing the Twins by two games for second place in the Wild Card race.

While the Yankees have been struggling to remain relevant to the Wild Card picture, the Twins have had bigger fish to fry. Three days after leaving New York, the Twins hosted the AL Central-leading White Sox and took three of four games to close the gap atop the central to a half a game. Since then, the Twins have twice slipped past the Pale Hose, only to slip back behind them the next day. They enter tonight's action trailing the Chisox by just a half game and the two teams have been within 1.5 games of one another for the past week.

The Twins have been hanging tight in the Central all year, and a week ago they finally brought rehabilitated lefty ace Francisco Liriano up to replace aged innings eater Livan Hernandez in the rotation. The Yankees are fortunate not to have to face Liriano (2-0, 2.31 since being recalled) this week, but given the Twins' spectacular record at home (.650 winning percentage), and the fact that Minnesota actually has something to fight for, they've got their work cut out for them anyway.

The Yanks split a four-game series in the Homer Dome as May turned into June, and will kick this week's three-game set off tonight by sending Sidney Ponson to the mound against Glen Perkins. Ponson has faced the Twins thrice already this year. He pitched 5 2/3 innings in the opening game of the Yankees' July sweep and picked up a win thanks to 12 runs of support. His first start of the season saw him pitch 5 1/3 innings against the Twins in Texas, give up four unearned runs, and take a no-decision. His one start at the Metrodome, however, was one to dream on, a 110-pitch complete game in which Sir Sidney allowed just one run on six hits and a walk while the Rangers cruised to a 10-1 victory. Perkins, meanwhile, has faced the Yankees twice, once in each location, both times coughing up five runs, which is exactly what he did against the Mariners in his last start as well.

The lefty Perkins won't have to deal with Jason Giambi or the hot-hitting Johnny Damon tonight, as Richie Sexson gets the start at first base and Justin Christian starts over Damon in left field with Xavier Nady DHing. Damon DHed in both weekend games after slamming his sore left shoulder into the wall on Friday night in pursuit of a rocket hit off Ian Kennedy, so it seems likely that Joe Girardi is simply using the opposting lefty as an excuse to give Damon a needed day off. Still, starting both Christian and Melky Cabrera over Damon hurts, as Damon has had two singles in each of the last five games, is hitting .370 over his active 11-game hitting streak, has hit .333/.413/.420 with five steals in as many tries since being activated from the DL after nursing that same sore shoulder back to relative health, and, if you hadn't noticed, is actually leading the league in batting average. Similarly, while Sexson has quietly hit .292/.400/.458 as a part-timer since joining the Yankees, the clean-shaven Giambi is hitting .313/.500/.875 with three home runs on the current road trip.

 

Minnesota Twins

2008 Record: 62-55 (.530)
2008 Pythagorean Record: 62-55 (.533)

Manager: Ron Gardenhire
General Manager: Bill Smith

Home Ballpark (multi-year Park Factors): Hubert H. Humphrey Metrodome (96/96)

Who's Replaced Whom:

Adam Everett (DL) replaced Alexi Casilla (DL)
Randy Ruiz (minors) replaced Craig Monroe
Francisco Liriano replaced Livan Hernandez

25-man Roster:

1B - Justin Morneau (L)
2B - Nick Punto (S)
SS - Adam Everett (R)
3B - Brian Buscher (L)
C - Joe Mauer (L)
RF - Denard Span (L)
CF - Carlos Gomez (R)
LF - Delmon Young (R)

Bench:

L - Mike Lamb (3B/1B)
R - Brendan Harris (IF)
R - Mike Redmond (C)
R - Randy Ruiz (1B)

Rotation:

L - Francisco Liriano
R - Scott Baker
L - Glen Perkins
R - Nick Blackburn
R - Kevin Slowey

Bullpen:

R - Joe Nathan
R - Matt Guerrier
L - Dennys Reyes
R - Jesse Crain
R - Brian Bass
L - Craig Breslow
R - Boof Bonser

15-day DL: R - Michael Cuddyer (RF), S - Alexi Casilla (2B), S - Matt Tolbert (IF),
60-day DL: R - Pat Neshek

Typical Lineup:

L - Denard Span (RF)
S - Nick Punto (2B)
L - Joe Mauer (C)
L - Justin Morneau (1B)
L - Jason Kubel (DH)
R - Delmon Young (LF)
L - Brian Buscher (3B)
R - Adam Everett (SS)
R - Carlos Gomez (CF)

Comments (231)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-08-11 15:44:49
1.   randym77
Holy jeez. Dave Miley's kid died in a car crash today:

http://tinyurl.com/5fz88g

2008-08-11 15:45:42
2.   thelarmis
cliff - i gotta say, i've really been enjoying your added touches of the baseball cards on your posts. just when i thought your previews and such couldn't get any better, you up the ante! thanks for all you do 'round these parts : )

GO YANKS!!!

2008-08-11 15:56:44
3.   thelarmis
longoria is joining crawford on the dl with a hand injury. seems to be a fractured wrist from a hbp; no word on how long he'll be out. still, that's a lot of ground to make up. let's hope for a repeat sweep of Minny and get back in this thing...!
2008-08-11 16:06:02
4.   Chyll Will
If this wasn't mentioned already, Dunn to Diamondbacks for 3 prospects:
http://tinyurl.com/6dsq8l

1 Don't have the words. Condolences to him and his family.

2008-08-11 16:06:53
5.   randym77
According to PeteAbe, Damon was surprised that he wasn't in the lineup today. Girardi didn't offer much explanation, other than "Damon's played a lot."

Maybe he's being nice to Melky because it's his birthday. (Happy 24th, Melky. How about some birthday hits?)

2008-08-11 16:09:38
6.   randym77
4 The Reds appear to be blowing up their team. They DFA'd their starting catcher the other day.
2008-08-11 16:22:17
7.   Chyll Will
6 Yep, and they reclaimed Andy Phillips from the Mets last month. Anyone that's thinking about giving up on this season right now should take a look at Cincy...
2008-08-11 16:23:53
8.   randym77
7 It's so bad that when they sent Homer Bailey, their Phil Hughes, back down to AAA he said he was glad to go. Because the Louisville Bats are winning.
2008-08-11 16:31:26
9.   Chyll Will
8 I thought it was bad enough when Junior said "Peace!'...
2008-08-11 16:42:28
10.   Just fair
This past weekend, Michael Cuddyer was in Rochester rehabbing a strained ligament in his index finger. He was on first base when a line drive caught him in the foot. It's fractured and he's out for another 4 weeks. Them's the breaks. No pun intended
2008-08-11 16:54:45
11.   randym77
Of course, it's not exactly comforting that Ponson is now one of our better pitchers...
2008-08-11 16:55:53
12.   OldYanksFan
OK guys, I did the work, so I may as well post it. Tried to take a look at how RISP and Close&Last OPS effect at team in terms of Win% compared to their Pathag record.
(Man, I wish we had a proportional font here)

Team......... W. L. .Pct ..RS/A .Exp .O/U RISP/PLC CL&L/PLC ERA
LA Angels.. 74 43 .632 +062 .559 73/O .811(05) .781(04) (07)
Tampa Bay 71 46 .607 +065 .564 44/O .716(12) .791(02) (04)
BostonSox 67 51 .568 +108 .600 32/U .768(08) .784(03) (06)
White Sox. 65 51 .560 +065 .559 01/O .825(04) .774(05) (05)
Minnesota.. 65 52 .556 +037 .533 23/O .846(01) .802(01) (10)
NYYankees. 63 55 .534 +041 .537 03/U .729(11) .734(09) (03)
TeRangers. 61 58 .513 -039 .472 41/O .835(02) .738(08) (13)
Toronto BJ 59 59 .500 +032 .533 33/U .698(14) .675(11) (01)
Detroit Tig. 58 59 .496 +028 .524 28/U .772(07) .767(06) (14)
BaltimoreOr 56 60 .483 -012 .490 07/U .830(03) .748(07) (11)
OaklandAs.. 54 63 .462 +004 .504 42/U .733(10) .640(13) (02)
KansasCity. 54 64 .458 -080 .426 32/O .755(09) .679(10) (09)
ClevelandIn 52 64 .448 +007 .507 59/U .789(06) .610(14) (12)
SeattleMs.. 45 73 .381 -083 .422 41/U .703(13) .644(12) (08)

Minn: With poorish pitching, the BEST RISP and CL&L have them playing way over their heads
Texas: With terrible pitching, excellent RISP has them playing over their heads
Baltimore: With poor pitching, RISP has them at almost .500
WhiteSox: 2nd in team OPS, at the cusp of the top 1/3rd of RISP,CL&L and ERA, the are solid but overperforming.
LA Angels: At the cusp of the top 1/3rd of RISP and CL&L and Average ERA, they must be doing other things right. They appear to be playing over their heads
Cleveland: The worst CL&L with poor pitching has them greatly underperforming
Detroit: Middleish RISP/CL&L with the worst pitching has them underperforming
Red Sox: Not sure here. Average Pitching and RISP, 3rd in RISP and 3rd in CL&L, don't know how their Run differential is 108 or why they are underperforming. Must have a lot of high scoring blowouts.
KansasCity: On the cusp of the bottom 1/3rd at everything at 12th in OPS, they are Lucky to be where they are
Oakland: 2nd in ERA, lst in team OPS should put them near .500? Poor RISP & CL&L has them underperforming.
Yankees: 6th in team OPS, 3rd in ERA, yet 6th in league standings. Me thinks very poor RISP and poorish CL&L have truly hurt us and kept us from the top 4.
TampaBay: 7th in team OPS, top 1/3rd pitching, poor RISP and very good CL&L. They MUST be a team of destiny, as there is no way to explain their overperformance.
Seattle: Middle ERA, 12th in team OPS, terrible RISP and CL&L has them grossly underperforming.
Toronto: 1st in ERA and 13th inteam OPS should make them SLIGHTY better then .500. Terrible RISP & CL&L has them underperforming.

It is not across the board, but it seems like RISP and CL&L definitely do influence how these teams are performing this year.

2008-08-11 16:59:30
13.   JL25and3
5 Finally - we no longer have to hear, "But he's only 23!"

I know, now he's only 24. He's still young - but he's really not that young anymore.

2008-08-11 17:03:06
14.   JL25and3
5 And it just dawned on me - Joe decides to give Damon a day off and play Melky, and it's against a lefty. It boggles the mind.

The only explanation I can think of is that he wanted the best defensive outfield he has for Ponson, the flyball pitcher. But then wouldn't he have Nady in RF instead of Abreu?

2008-08-11 17:04:47
15.   Mattpat11
What new and interesting way will the Yankees find to lose tonight?

Maybe no one will try to catch a fly ball.

2008-08-11 17:05:18
16.   randym77
13 YES pointed out that Melky is still younger than 80% of MLB rookies this year.

It's not really his age that bothers me, it's that he's worse every year. Not only is he not developing the power many hoped, his average and OBP are headed south.

2008-08-11 17:07:06
17.   rbj
1 Very sad. My condolences to the Miley family. Very tough burying your kid.
2008-08-11 17:07:46
18.   OldYanksFan
Oh TURDS. I fucked up the ERA placement in 12. They are Toronto, Oakland, TB, Boston, LA, Chicago, NY, Minn, Cleveland, Detroit, Seattle, KC, Baltimore, Texas. SHIT!
2008-08-11 17:08:56
19.   OldYanksFan
JD DID knock down an outfield wall the other day. He may be a bit banged up.
2008-08-11 17:12:30
20.   Chyll Will
15 Perhaps Joe Jr. puts on a show at the last play of the game?
2008-08-11 17:13:26
21.   Chyll Will
19 Nah, he knocked it open, big difference >;)
2008-08-11 17:16:08
22.   Mattpat11
Michael Kay: That has always been a Twins' mantra! YOU'VE GOT TO THROW STRIKES.

Are there organizations in baseball that feel otherwise?

2008-08-11 17:19:53
23.   Chyll Will
22 The Rangers maybe? Baltimore?
2008-08-11 17:20:13
24.   JL25and3
19 Then DH Damon, with an outfield of Nady, Christian, Abreu.
2008-08-11 17:24:18
25.   Just fair
I turned the channel last night as soon as the ball rolled into right field. I didn't realize until now that Cano and Betemit were both pickin' daisies. Yeesh.
2008-08-11 17:24:30
26.   rbj
22 Aren't strikeouts fascist? Much better to walk batters.
2008-08-11 17:25:41
27.   rbj
Woah. I thought Jeter was throwing to second and that it went way, way off.
2008-08-11 17:25:58
28.   JL25and3
16 Counting all rookies is deceptive. A lot of guys bounce around in the minors before finally getting a cup of coffee, or even a break. Dan Giese and Justin Christian are both rookies, but that really doesn't have anything to do with Melky.

And yes, it's not that he's old; he's certainly not. But he's no longer so young that his awfulness can be excused.

2008-08-11 17:26:01
29.   Chyll Will
That was a nice play to his right...
2008-08-11 17:27:27
30.   Chyll Will
27 Me too. YES cameras have been catching some weird angles lately...
2008-08-11 17:28:48
31.   Chyll Will
27 Weird, Kay just said the same thing.
2008-08-11 17:32:11
32.   randym77
25 Yeah, that was pretty bad.

To be fair, Betemit is new to 1B. He's played mostly SS and 3B. Not sure what Robbie's excuse was.

2008-08-11 17:32:45
33.   Chyll Will
Okay, that's the second time in a few days we've seen this from Robbie. Is he doggin' it, tired or not that good a runner? I don't necessarily agree with Kay's level of indignation, but if not for that throwaway, Robbie might have already have been at second.
2008-08-11 17:34:51
34.   randym77
33 My guess is "all of the above."
2008-08-11 17:35:15
35.   randym77
Happy freakin' birthday, Melk.
2008-08-11 17:35:28
36.   rbj
Jeebus f'ing Christabol!
2008-08-11 17:35:51
37.   tommyl
I am officially jumping off the Melky Cabrera bandwagon. That was atrocious, simply atrocious. Melky, meet AAA. Brett Gardner could do better than that.
2008-08-11 17:37:13
38.   Just fair
I laugh to keep from crying. ugh.
2008-08-11 17:37:37
39.   Chyll Will
Ugh. Unfriggenbelieveable.
2008-08-11 17:40:01
40.   Chyll Will
38 You can have the root beer, pal.

Umm, did anyone else's console just emit two midrange tones on the YES channel?

2008-08-11 17:41:15
41.   randym77
40 Yes. I looked around for awhile, wondering if it was one of my other electronics, but finally decided it was the TV.
2008-08-11 17:41:55
42.   OldYanksFan
Melkdud:
.241 .296 .338 .634 2008
.232 .264 .290 .554 Post ASB
.206 .286 .289 .575 RISP
.245 .293 .302 .595 Close & Late
2008-08-11 17:44:19
43.   Just fair
40 Hold the root. : )
2008-08-11 17:44:21
44.   randym77
Christian nearly killed himself there.
2008-08-11 17:44:35
45.   tommyl
40 Yes and this isn't the first time. There was a game last week it did that too. Its to distract you from the shittiness that is the 2008 Yankees.
2008-08-11 17:44:47
46.   OldYanksFan
Well, Evertett had to hit his SECOND HR sometime...
2008-08-11 17:46:06
47.   Mattpat11
I hate baseball.
2008-08-11 17:46:53
48.   Chyll Will
45 I was thinking that, but it could also be a system overload warning from the degree of shittiness that is being broadcast...
2008-08-11 17:48:23
49.   OldYanksFan
In all of MLB, only 2 teams have an OPS over .800, Texas leading MLB with an .810 OPS. Minn is batting .846 with RISP and .802 Close & Late.
2008-08-11 17:49:21
50.   rbj
I'm just glad that I'm no longer worried about the Yankees making the playoffs. Only problem is that they're showing synchronized diving on the Olympics. Ugh.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-08-11 17:49:22
51.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Minnesota has a better reacord than the Yankees..i still find this hard to believe..Nick Punto is their #2 batter!!
2008-08-11 17:49:55
52.   Chyll Will
47 What baseball? This is bull$#@&...
2008-08-11 17:50:11
53.   Just fair
47 Does it have anything to do with having no runs after men on 1st and 3rd and no outs? And the bad guys having 2 runs b/c of a 2 out walk and a light hitting shortstop? I can see that.
2008-08-11 17:50:26
54.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
50 that's not too bad..unless the judo is on, it seems to be all badminton, all the time on the tv here...
2008-08-11 17:51:30
55.   tommyl
52 It helps when you Sidney Ponson isn't your #3 starter and your response to 1st and 3rd no outs is a popup and a GIDP on the first pitch.

It also helps to play in the central and not have 170 games against the Sox and the Rays.

2008-08-11 17:51:34
56.   Chyll Will
51 Are you saying that Minnesota is better than the Yanks by one Punto? >;)
2008-08-11 17:52:32
57.   JL25and3
Kay and Flaherty are stopping just short of calling this lineup (and Girardi) idiotic.
2008-08-11 17:53:27
58.   rbj
54 When's the Judo on? Though one of my fellow aikdoka is a 2nd degree black belt in Judo and doesn't care for the olympicizing of the art -- it's less of a martial art and more of a "get the quick score".
2008-08-11 17:53:47
59.   JL25and3
51 Nick Punto's stats might not be so good, but he does the little things that don't show up in box scores. He plays the game right. He's a winner.
2008-08-11 17:55:18
60.   randym77
Maybe batting is overrated. Texas kinda sucks this year.
2008-08-11 17:57:11
61.   Chyll Will
That was one gritty popup by Punto, yessir... he sure pops up to the catcher right...

57 justshort

2008-08-11 17:59:24
62.   tommyl
60 Well it helps if you can bat and pitch, or at least do one of them. Then again, a guy I work with is a diehard Mariners fan, so you know, there's that.
2008-08-11 17:59:27
63.   Chyll Will
58 In other words, it's like horseracing or dating Madonna. I have the same opinion of fencing.
2008-08-11 17:59:41
64.   rbj
Knoblauch is one.
2008-08-11 18:00:19
65.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
58 was on all weekend here, inbetween the badminton and field hockey..

59 yep, True Grit indeed, partner...

2008-08-11 18:00:55
66.   Chyll Will
62 Shield your eyes, don't look directly into it!
2008-08-11 18:01:05
67.   rbj
63 Or Kendo -- the art of swordsmanship is gone.
2008-08-11 18:01:17
68.   cult of basebaal
so ... what have i missed?
2008-08-11 18:01:46
69.   randym77
62 Pity the poor Reds fans. They lost Griffey at the trade deadline, Dunn today. They're out on the ledges.
2008-08-11 18:04:14
70.   rbj
68 Just a first and third, no outs, I-Rod pops out to short CF, Melky GDIP. In other words, same shit, different day.
2008-08-11 18:04:36
71.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
67 do you do kendo? there's a school around to corner from my place here, they have quite a few younger students and foreigners there..
2008-08-11 18:04:42
72.   rbj
65 Damn, I picked the wrong weekend to travel.
2008-08-11 18:07:11
73.   rbj
71 No, just Aikido (with a little Judo Ne Waza for kicks). My Sensei really hates the modern sport of Kendo due to the way it is done. We do a fair amount of sword work and there's just so much to it. Going for quick little wrist taps seems so cheap and cheesey.
2008-08-11 18:08:59
74.   Chyll Will
69 To be honest, I don't see how different their situation is from a few months ago (or more)... but from what I've been reading, Boston's reclaiming their reservations on the ledges. Especially upon the notion of Manny wanting to join us next year (just to get back at them, hah!)

68 A whole'lotta nuthin'. Ignorance is bliss.

2008-08-11 18:10:20
75.   ChrisS
Hmm. Sometimes I think that if Cashman could wipe out all the contracts this off-season and started from scratch, it would be for the best.

This isn't a bad team, but it's mediocre and there's not much room for hope because most of these guys can only stay the same or decline.

2008-08-11 18:10:51
76.   Just fair
65 I watched a 5'10'' Chinese woman obliterate a 5'2'' Korean woman in badminton the other day. It's the longest I have ever watched badminton The Chinese girl was the favorite for the Gold. I don't think she missed a single shot and displayed amazing athleticism and hand-eye coordination. (i wonder if she can play centerfield)
2008-08-11 18:11:03
77.   ChrisS
74 If Manny is signed by the Yankees, I'll find room on the ledges.
2008-08-11 18:12:09
78.   Chyll Will
73 Wouldn't that be Judo NeWaza for throws? >;)
2008-08-11 18:12:24
79.   cult of basebaal
72 that's alright, i picked the wrong season to stop sniffing glue ...
2008-08-11 18:13:38
80.   randym77
74 When your team is not a contender, you watch for the star players. Now the Reds' new management is having a fire sale. And not getting that much back. (They're still paying half of Griffey's and Dunn's salaries.)

Dunn is only 28. I think a lot of Reds fans were hoping he'd be the centerpiece of the rebuilding, not part of the fire sale.

2008-08-11 18:14:05
81.   Chyll Will
77 And I'll sell tickets. We're gonna be rich!!
2008-08-11 18:14:31
82.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
73 wow, that's cool..in my years here the only martial arts I've practiced is the "Stomach Clench and Throw", done after nights of cheap sake... where are you (rbj) learning from?

77 two year deal for Manny would be great!

2008-08-11 18:15:51
83.   Chyll Will
Fair enough. But if you're Walt Joketty, are you rebuilding around HR hitters or pitching?
2008-08-11 18:16:01
84.   cult of basebaal
80 it's hard to know ... so many of the media in the cincy area seem to love ripping on dunn ...
2008-08-11 18:16:37
85.   OldYanksFan
Signing Manny for 3/$55 makes sense. If they do it, I will become a Mets fan.
2008-08-11 18:17:30
86.   tommyl
80 He clogs the bases too much.
2008-08-11 18:17:49
87.   cult of basebaal
happy birthday, HACKY!

maybe to celebrate you'll hit a ball out of the infield???

2008-08-11 18:18:39
88.   tommyl
Man, we can't even call time properly right now. C'mon, I know I'm overreacting but this team sucks right now. Do something, anything.
2008-08-11 18:19:11
89.   tommyl
87 He hasn't done that since his last birthday it seems. Sigh.
2008-08-11 18:19:29
90.   ChrisS
77 Ain't happening. Manny's getting 4 or 5 years at $85-$100 million. There's a reason he approved of the trade only if the Dodgers gave up the team options.

And of course he wants teams to think the Yankees are involved, more money.

Ugh. These guys are just lost at the plate. Well, those not named Alex Rodriguez.

2008-08-11 18:19:35
91.   monkeypants
85 OYF,

I'm curious. You have been a very vocal defender of Bonds--almost a sing-him-no-matter-what position. And you tend to side with players in most debates about character, etc. But you are pretty vocally anti-Manny. What sets him apart, in your mind?

2008-08-11 18:20:12
92.   Chyll Will
86 Too bad he didn't end up in Boston then. They have a door to the back of the Green Monster for that...
2008-08-11 18:20:39
93.   JL25and3
I can't help it. I've always liked Manny.
2008-08-11 18:21:42
94.   cult of basebaal
88 this team does suck right now.

big fat donkey balls ...

offense? check

fielding? check

starting pitching? check

bullpen? check

situational hitting? check

clutch hitting? check

managing? check

the only people getting a pass are damon, moose and Mo.

2008-08-11 18:22:37
95.   randym77
83 Who knows? The fire sale has just begun. There's some fear that they'll trade Bailey or Volquez in the off-season...for a hitter to replace Dunn and Griffey.

There's also the fact that they hired the Mariners' fired GM, Bavasi. Possibly as a GM in training.

2008-08-11 18:23:23
96.   tommyl
I swear, if we lose a game where Sidney Ponson pitches a gem, I don't know what I'll do, but it'll be something bad.
2008-08-11 18:24:41
97.   Just fair
I prefer Manny in a land far, far, far, away. 3,000 miles to the West.
2008-08-11 18:24:46
98.   ChrisS
I don't have anything against him personally. The espn/red sox nation deification of him for his goofy antics annoyed the shit out of me, but he knows how to hit a baseball.

I can answer for OYF, but Bonds could have been had for a one-year deal and Manny will get years and lots of money. As for the Yankees signing Manny, I think they have enough post-35 OFers that are expensive and can't play defense. But that's just me.

2008-08-11 18:24:48
99.   OldYanksFan
How about this.
Girardi throws a tantrum in the locker room after the game and then quits. He humiliates the Yankees by holding a press conference and telling the media that this team is soft and simply doesn't know how to win. Calls out individual players. Goes nuts.

The Yankees temporarily replace Girardi with the bench coach. People are concerned about George's health.

So... how would the team react?
Would they find some grit?

2008-08-11 18:25:12
100.   cult of basebaal
94 and maybe snacks pontoon ...

ps ... and the X-Man

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-08-11 18:25:39
101.   Schteeve
This teams offense is SHOCKINGLY bad. SHOCKINGLY. I am SHOCKED by how bad it is. S-H-O-C-K-E-D, SHOCKED.
2008-08-11 18:25:48
102.   tommyl
100 No, I think they'd just be happy they get candy in the clubhouse again.
2008-08-11 18:26:45
103.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
99 I hope he does throw a tantrum, but obviously not quit! Joe G ain't the problem..it's simply not enough pitching...
2008-08-11 18:26:58
104.   cult of basebaal
95 i wouldn't read anything like that into it, the red sox hired allan baird ...

walt jocketty's not going anywhere for a while and just because someone is terrible as a gm, doesn't mean that they don't bring quality skills to the equation in some subset of baseball operations

2008-08-11 18:27:18
105.   Schteeve
93 I think it's funny that you like Manny and hate (if I recall) Sheffield. Not saying good or bad or right or wrong, just funny.

I like both of them for the record.

2008-08-11 18:28:01
106.   Chyll Will
95 True. But maybe they can actually train him to be a GM as opposed to what he did to Seattle...
2008-08-11 18:28:03
107.   randym77
Cy Perkins still mowing 'em down.
2008-08-11 18:28:18
108.   Schteeve
103 PITCHING??? You think this team's problem is not enough pitching???
2008-08-11 18:28:31
109.   ChrisS
Oh Derek. This is painful to watch.
2008-08-11 18:30:19
110.   tommyl
108 Well that, and hitting, oh and defense. Besides that we're awesome.
2008-08-11 18:30:45
111.   tommyl
Kabalah!
2008-08-11 18:31:22
112.   OldYanksFan
91 Manny shits on the game. Mind you, steroids, HGH and other forms of cheating have been common throughout the eras. They are still wrong but a fact of life. But as obnoxious as Bonds is, he wanted to win and played hard.

The shit Manny being Manny did was just clownlike. But acosting that old guy? Giving up that AB against Mo? Being traded because, even at $20m/yr after 8 years, the Sox feared Manny would throw the season away.

Manny literally blackmailed the Sox by showing his was willing to NOT play. That goes against everything sports represents. I can't believe he can't be sanctioned by MLB, but the players union is too strong.

Imagine if other players take Manny's lead.
What Manny did is literally dangerous to the sport.

ARod!!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD FUCKIN' GOD!

2008-08-11 18:32:28
113.   Schteeve
I think if the Yankees offense had scored like it was projected to, they would at least be leading the WC right now.

They are on pace to score 200 fewer runs than last season. 200!!!!

2008-08-11 18:32:32
114.   Chyll Will
99 I dunno, how'd that work twenty years ago?
2008-08-11 18:32:43
115.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
108 sure. was trapped at home sick all weekend, finished up Buster Olney's "Dynasty" book..look at the starters on those teams! Cone, Wells, El Duque, Clemens, Young Pettite, Jimmy Key...this year we've seen IPK, Ponson, Rasner, Igawa and Dan Geise all make starts...
2008-08-11 18:33:54
116.   Just fair
The boys seriously need to stop playing this on an endless loop during bp WTF. Lame. I know.

http://tinyurl.com/64lf8g
2008-08-11 18:33:55
117.   JL25and3
Emma's brother doubles in the gap!
2008-08-11 18:34:29
118.   Schteeve
If I were Ponson, instead of pitching, I'd just start tossing balls into the outfield. This guy is a total waste, we signed him as a joke, and for the most part he's done nothing but pitch his heart out, and they can't give him three lousy stinkin runs???
2008-08-11 18:35:02
119.   Chyll Will
112 Technically, Manny shits in the game... or maybe shat in the game... or maybe shut...
2008-08-11 18:35:16
120.   DarrenF
This team hit .290 last year and is hitting .270 this year. A .255 RISP BA isn't too shocking for a team that only hits .270 overall. The dropoffs between 07 and 08 are even more striking in ob% and slugging%.

David Wright has 90 rbis and is hitting .250 with RISP.

The problem with the Yankees is that not enough Rs are ISP.

2008-08-11 18:35:22
121.   tommyl
113 I'm sick of analyzing why we suck. We suck. A lot. The other team scores more runs than we do. A lot.
2008-08-11 18:35:25
122.   randym77
106 I'm not sure Jocketty is the one I'd want training my GM, though. Yes, he had some success...but I think that was before the other GMs caught on.

MLB Trade Rumors used to have an article about Jocketty. They've taken it down, but someone copied it here:

http://tinyurl.com/6cyrcc

The man is apparently extremely hostile to stats. Real old school, and so is Dusty Baker. (Who complains about walks clogging the bases, and wants his players to be aggressive and swing more.) The Reds seem to be going backwards.

2008-08-11 18:36:04
123.   Schteeve
115 But those are just names. I'm not saying that the dynasty teams didn't have better pitching than this team, but see my comment 113 . If they scored like they were supposed to, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
2008-08-11 18:36:06
124.   51cq24
no ibb?
2008-08-11 18:36:10
125.   OldYanksFan
91 Bear in Mind, I live in RSN and get NESN. Before MLB.TV, I watched all the Sox games (to root against them). So I've seen Manny's act for a long time. But this year, he stepped over the line.

And how about his comment about playing with the Yankees so he could stick it to the Sox? The Sox treated him like gold for 8 years. They were a whore to his talent. Manny has no complaint with the Sox... quite the opposite. Imagine if ARod did what Manny did.

2008-08-11 18:36:38
126.   Max
Gritty bunt by Punto there. Doing all the little things right.

And the run scores and buries us just a little deeper.

2008-08-11 18:36:46
127.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Dunn is really only 28?? is he a free-agent this year?
2008-08-11 18:37:16
128.   cult of basebaal
wait! you can score runners from 3rd base??? nobody told us that!!!
2008-08-11 18:37:31
129.   51cq24
125 won 2 world series?
2008-08-11 18:37:50
130.   tommyl
Alright guys, don't fear, it is Perkins but we can somehow get to him. I know he's the best pitcher in the history of baseball and all, but c'mon, buck up. Just hit a ball to the outfield for starters. You can do that, can't you?
2008-08-11 18:38:08
131.   monkeypants
112 I see the distinction that you're making. I think they both shit on the game in different ways. It's not just that Bonds (presumably) cheated...it's that he flaunted the rules openly, he mocked them in dismissive interviews. He also mocked the history of the game. But that's the way I see it.

I agree that there is a difference between the two. I find them both contemptible...you do not.

Fair enough.

2008-08-11 18:38:37
132.   tommyl
128 No, the Yankees aren't allowed to. Its a new rule issued by Bud Selig. I think, since that would be the only explanation for our continual failures.
2008-08-11 18:38:57
133.   JL25and3
121 I agree. Their hitting has been bad, their fielding has been bad, their pitching has been...not as bad, but not all that good...and they make a lot of mistakes. So does the manager.
2008-08-11 18:39:05
134.   OldYanksFan
103 It would be a 'stunt'. But when you talk about lighting a fire under somebody's ass? The Yankees need an Atom Bomb under their ass.
2008-08-11 18:39:09
135.   tommyl
Popup! Way to work the count!
2008-08-11 18:39:13
136.   Chyll Will
113 You combine the number of games missed from our current starters (with Godzilla and Jorge making up the largest percentages) and I'll bet we're missing more than 200 runs.
2008-08-11 18:39:31
137.   cult of basebaal
122 i dunno, somebody hired mgl to work for the cardinals, i doubt that wasn't approved at the top. and there's no questioning the cardinals success ... i think the reds are far better off with jocketty at the helm as opposed to krivsky ...
2008-08-11 18:39:34
138.   JL25and3
131 I'll still take them both over Sheffield. But that's just me.
2008-08-11 18:39:37
139.   monkeypants
121 But they don't suck a lot. The Mariners suck a lot. No, they mediocre a lot, which might be even more frustrating in its own way.
2008-08-11 18:40:01
140.   rbj
82 Sorry, I've been busy unpacking. I'm in Toledo OH, studying at Shobu Aikido of Ohio under Jay Weik sensei, who studied under Bill Gleason sensei, who studied under Yamaguchi sensei. I just got my black belt this May.
2008-08-11 18:40:45
141.   randym77
127 I think Dunn will be a free agent. I believe he has an option, but it's not not likely the D-backs will pick it up.
2008-08-11 18:40:57
142.   JL25and3
139 For a bad team, no, they don't suck. But for a good team, they suck something fierce.
2008-08-11 18:42:12
143.   monkeypants
138 Sheff is not real high on my list either.
2008-08-11 18:43:51
144.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
131 Why no love for Bonds? I just can't accept all the Bonds hatred when people still cheer for Giambi, Pettite, etc etc etc...

140 nice, congratulations. how long that take you?

2008-08-11 18:44:02
145.   tommyl
139 I know, I'm overreacting like I said. Its just maddening to watch this team fail when they shouldn't.
2008-08-11 18:44:02
146.   Schteeve
136 All I'm saying is that they are 200 runs below the projections that SG at RLYW did at the beginning of the season.
2008-08-11 18:44:41
147.   nick
I know it's childish, but I could really turn on this team--they are basically flat, underachieving, dull to watch. unfair? of course, but it's how I feel....
2008-08-11 18:44:48
148.   cult of basebaal
SOOOOOOOOOO glad joey joe joe jr decided to start the big sucky tonite instead of the 'stacheless one ...
2008-08-11 18:45:25
149.   Schteeve
143 If I may ask a very non confrontational question, what's your beef with Sheff. Other than the fact that he's a borderline delusional, narcissistic dickhead.
2008-08-11 18:46:40
150.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
149 I personally love Scheff and would easily have him on my team if I were a GM. it's telling that very few players have ahd problems with him, only the media...
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-08-11 18:47:27
151.   randym77
137 If you believe that report at MLB Trade Rumors, there was a war in the Cards organization, between the stat-heads and the old school guys. With Jocketty leading the old school. That's why he was fired.
2008-08-11 18:48:30
152.   Schteeve
150 I agree actually. I would put Sheff on my team in a heartbeat. I wouldn't want to manage him, but I can see him being a good teammate. And he was a hell of a baseball player, back when he was a hell of a baseball player.
2008-08-11 18:49:40
153.   51cq24
seriously, it's time to bring jackson up. our offense is struggling and needs energy. melky sucks, christian isn't anything special. we need a cf, our best prospect is a cf. he's 21, not 18. he isn't going to be ruined. i think we need him.
2008-08-11 18:51:42
154.   rbj
140 Five years just about to the day, though I had studied for 2.5 years in the early Nineties, and was studying Seidokan style for about two years just before I came here. Considering I have no athletic ability I 'm really proud of having done it at age 43.
2008-08-11 18:53:14
155.   JL25and3
152 "If the official scorer gave me an error, I didn't think was an error, I'd say, 'OK, here's a real error,' and I'd throw the next ball into the stands on purpose.'"
2008-08-11 18:54:20
156.   JL25and3
I want to call Buscher "Jack Keefe."

http://tinyurl.com/5pnptr

2008-08-11 18:54:49
157.   Chyll Will
148 It looked good on paper >;)
2008-08-11 18:55:41
158.   rbj
157 For those who remember "Well, it worked in rehearsal"
2008-08-11 18:56:01
159.   monkeypants
149 I have mixed feelings about Sheff. On the one hand, he plays as hard as anyone, as far as I can tell from a distance. On the other hand, he too is a member of the unrepentant steroid crew. More importantly, I was pretty turned off by his accusations of racism against Torre (and yes, I realize that I don't know what happened in the clubhouse, etc...but I have to make the call). I also saw that he caught Leyland off guard recently as well.
2008-08-11 18:56:15
160.   OldYanksFan
131 Bonds, as one of hundreds, if not thousands of users, was called out by the media because he was the best. Hit all those HRs. We don't know what the dozens of 'found out' players would have said, because nobody cares. We can focus all of our collective anger and hatred for the entire steroids mess on Bonds. Giambi... now loved because he fessed up. Clemens? Sheffield? Ivan?

Bonds was scapegoated, pure and simple. Some 70+ players have been named for doing steroids. Can you name 5? Do you care at all about those guys?

Mind you, I respect Bond's talent, but I dislike the man. But what the media and MLB have done to Bonds, at the exclusion of everyone else, is a far greater sin then the sins of one man who was pissed because Mac and Sosa got the love and attention of the nation(because the did steroids).

And I'm not a Sox hater. I don't hate Youk (he's a member of the tribe after all), or Tek, or anyone else. If Pedroia were a Yankee, we would love him. Youk's intensity is no different the Paulie's. I have followed the Sox for many years. I don't hate the Sox, just the fact that they beat us.

But I hate Manny, and I ain't to pleased that MLB made no attempt to sanction him, or at least get him some serious, negatibe PR. Manny should be banned from the game for what he did.

2008-08-11 18:56:42
161.   cult of basebaal
bad news is that we suck

good news is that we suck in such a way that games are over early and everybody can get on with the rest of their evenings ...

2008-08-11 18:57:19
162.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
155 he was 19 or 20 yrs old and in a Brewers organization that was not the most enlightened in the world..hardly worthy of hatred
2008-08-11 18:58:32
163.   monkeypants
153 Yeah, it's shit or get of the pot time. If they want to make a run this season, then stick Damon in CF and hope for the best for the next 40 games. If not, then stick Gardner or Jackson (preferably the latter) out there for the rest of the season.
2008-08-11 18:59:52
164.   51cq24
163 it's possible that the latter of the latter is best for this year too
2008-08-11 19:00:22
165.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
160 " But what the media and MLB have done to Bonds, at the exclusion of everyone else, is a far greater sin then the sins of one man who was pissed because Mac and Sosa got the love and attention of the nation(because the did steroids)."

I agree with that 100%. to be honest, I don't give a brass farthing abotu steroids either. all the media types talkiing about the sanctity of the game, etc etc..isn't 75years of baseball apartheid a much greater sin?? Nap Lajoie, Yawkey and other vicious racists are in the HOF but Bonds & McGwire won't be?? it's insane...

2008-08-11 19:00:25
166.   OldYanksFan
My God, this team is turning into a joke. ARod called this a playoff game. ZERO runs? FOUR hits? Have they laid down and died? Have they give up?
2008-08-11 19:01:12
167.   randym77
I wonder what Sir Sidney's gonna say if they don't score a single run for him tonight.
2008-08-11 19:01:20
168.   cult of basebaal
164 i'm not sure what the best solution is for this year, but i'm pretty confident i know what the worst is ...
2008-08-11 19:02:29
169.   JL25and3
162 Easily worthy.

First off, I'm not sure why you say the Brewers organization was unenlightened, since we really only have Sheffield's word for it.

Second, what excuse is that to tank on your team and your fans - and admit it outright, and unrepentantly?

Third, he hasn't changed much. "If I'm not happy, you don't want me on your team" - and everyone knew he meant it.

2008-08-11 19:02:35
170.   cult of basebaal
166 joey joe joe jr obviously agreed with arod, that's why his two hottest hitters are sitting on the bench collecting splinters ...
2008-08-11 19:03:35
171.   cult of basebaal
167 can't talk ... eating!
2008-08-11 19:04:45
172.   monkeypants
160 "Do you care at all about those guys?"

we've been through this before. No, I don't care about them. When you are the best, the most visible, etc., you have greater responsibilities and obligations.

Bonds ruthless pursuit of records warrants greater scorn than some AAAA player who shot up just to get a chance. And the media didn't do it Bonds, bonds did it to Bonds. I'm not going to feel bad that the consensus best player in the game was jealous of the adulation that other cheaters got, so he took his cheating to a whole new, record book destroying level. And don't tell me that he was mistreated by the media--the same media who televised his every cheating AB. That was mutual prostitution, my friend.

Maybe Manny should be banned for what he did. So should Bonds.

2008-08-11 19:05:09
173.   cult of basebaal
yet another shitty throw from the greatest defensive catcher ever ...
2008-08-11 19:05:40
174.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
169 Sheff has a huge mouth, but again, his teammates have always vouched for him playing hard and being a great teammate (as far as I know...) Compare that to someone like Ripken who got a free pass, remember what he did to Manny Alexander?
but no, the media isn't racist at all anymore..
2008-08-11 19:07:25
175.   monkeypants
165 "I agree with that 100%. to be honest, I don't give a brass farthing abotu steroids either. all the media types talkiing about the sanctity of the game, etc etc..isn't 75years of baseball apartheid a much greater sin?? Nap Lajoie, Yawkey and other vicious racists are in the HOF but Bonds & McGwire won't be?? it's insane... "

Ah, the fallacy of the false dichotomy. Racists are bad so cheating doesn't matter.

Anyway, the HOF is irrelevant to this discussion--it is a private organization with it's own rules for entry. If the HOF decides to allow only racists or only cheaters into its hallowed halls, I could care less.

2008-08-11 19:09:44
176.   JL25and3
174 What does this have to do with the media? That quote actually came from an Bob Nightengale article that was entirely pro-Sheffield, as was the followup he wrote a couple of weeks later.
2008-08-11 19:09:47
177.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
175 cheating against what exactly? what "rules" were broken? what "tests" were failed?

to equate the apartheid system of the early years of baseball with supposed "cheating" by steroid use is nauseating..again, WHY single out Bonds?? he is so obvioulsy being blacklisted this year, it's shameful...

2008-08-11 19:11:53
178.   randym77
Ponson is pissed.
2008-08-11 19:12:47
179.   cult of basebaal
this team needs a good Decimation ...
2008-08-11 19:12:55
180.   Chyll Will
178 Beat me to it. Can't blame him one bit.
2008-08-11 19:13:15
181.   Just fair
Good job, Sir Sydney. You were the best Yankee on the field tonight. But that is not a recipe for success.
2008-08-11 19:13:42
182.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
176 my bad, i didn't express that clearly at all. you are correct about that article..i just get frustratedwith all the anti-Manny, anti-Sheff and anti-Bonds deluge..
2008-08-11 19:13:55
183.   Chyll Will
179 Let all of your free agents and options walk, then bring up the kiddies next year?
2008-08-11 19:14:12
184.   Schteeve
155 That supposedly happened, and I could see him making that up to make him seem that much more "hardcore." But to Jazz's point, he was a kid at the time. When he was with us, I never saw him dog anything ever.

The only thing I didn't like was his tendency to play the race card at the drop of a hat.

2008-08-11 19:14:16
185.   dianagramr
maybe we didn't get the better of the Farnsworth deal after all?
2008-08-11 19:14:38
186.   JL25and3
182 I just stick to Sheff, he's my specialty. I majored in Sheffield.
2008-08-11 19:17:21
187.   JL25and3
By the way, this game completely sucks. A couple of months ago, who would have believed that there'd be a game where Sir Sidney was the only worthwhile player?
2008-08-11 19:17:30
188.   51cq24
184 i really think it's offensive to talk about any black person playing this supposed "race card" as if being black is some sort of advantage. if you have no idea what he's been through, how can you make this claim? because he called someone you like a racist?
2008-08-11 19:17:36
189.   OldYanksFan
"Ah, the fallacy of the false dichotomy. Racists are bad so cheating doesn't matter."

Oh, it matters. 2 wrongs don't make a right. But while it's a crappy choice, I'd rather that my daughter cheated at sports, then be a racist.

There are plenty of racists in baseball. Are they called out? Are they blackballed like Bonds?

Justice, by definition, can NOT be selective. But since, like yourself, nobody else cares about all the other cheaters who are as guilty as Bonds, the media simply gave all their attention to Bonds.

Justice, by definition, can NOT be selective.

2008-08-11 19:17:42
190.   rbj
181 Wow. And that's not a sarcastic statement. Who'd have thought that Sidney Ponson would be the best player the Yankees threw out there. And on more than one occasion this season too.

Sept. 1, bring up the kids and see who can play.

2008-08-11 19:19:13
191.   dianagramr
My opinion of Joe Nathan just went up a lot ...
2008-08-11 19:20:56
192.   cult of basebaal
190 at this point, i almost hope we sink like a stone and get past this, "we're only x out in the wild-car race, we still gotta chance" point ... frankly, if we're not going to make the playoffs, i don't care how many games we lose as long as we play the kids and prepare for next year ...
2008-08-11 19:21:14
193.   monkeypants
177 I refuse to be drawn into your rhetorical framework. The wrongs of generations ago--you cite Nap Lajoie for cripes sake--can not be used as blanket coverage to excuse wrongs of the present.

Bonds "singled out"? Why yes he was: when every network lined up to broadcast every one of his ABs. That was nauseating.

By the way, I never equated or compared baseball's segregation to steroids--you did that. I said that your comparison was irrelevant to the point.

2008-08-11 19:21:16
194.   cult of basebaal
191 how so?
2008-08-11 19:21:20
195.   OldYanksFan
Does this team remind you of the September 2006 Red Sox team?
2008-08-11 19:23:34
196.   OldYanksFan
Let's see. The catcher moves his glove 6" after he catches the ball and the Ump wants to go home so..... STRIKE 3. Jeez!
2008-08-11 19:23:54
197.   dianagramr
194

he donated $500,000 to Stony Brook university for the renovation of their baseball field ...

2008-08-11 19:23:59
198.   cult of basebaal
only thing worse than the yankees play this year?

the umpiring.

seriously, when do the robots take over?

2008-08-11 19:24:25
199.   Just fair
190 I can imagine Ponson and Nady sharing beers and talking about how different they thought their new team was going to be. : (
2008-08-11 19:24:30
200.   Chyll Will
194 His generosity to his alma mater (SUNY- Stony Brook), I agree...
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-08-11 19:25:34
201.   randym77
Booooooooooooooo
2008-08-11 19:25:35
202.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
193 I cite Nap Lajoie because,in addition to not knowing how to pronounce his name as a child (and still not sure now), I have a vivid memory of his photo in a baseball history book with the caption "one of the early all-time greats". Same for Cobb. Photo of Landis saynig he "saved the game". etc etc. This was one coffee table book,I know, but the point being that baseball has NOT really acknowledged what it did for oevr 80 years. Sorry but retiring Jackie Robinson's # doesn't do it for me.

I just can't understand the outrage towards the steroid years in comparison....

2008-08-11 19:25:54
203.   OldYanksFan
Simply disgusting! There are no words...
2008-08-11 19:26:36
204.   monkeypants
189 That's kind of asinine. I don't want my child to be a racist...I don't want him to cheat. I refuse to play the which sin is worse game.

Sports leagues, however, should largely police the rules of the game, not what people think. I don't want the commissioner banning racists because I don't think that his job. If individual employers decide they don't wish to hire racists, I applaud them for that ethical decision.

As for justice not being selective...nearly all justice systems take into account impact of the "crime." When Bonds cheats and obliterates records it is worse than one Joe Shmoe cheats, so it warrants a worse penalty. In the context of celebrity, that means more media scrutiny. That is fair...that is just.

2008-08-11 19:27:25
205.   Shaun P
190 I like the sentiment, but who are "the kids"? The hitters on the 40-man roster not in the bigs are:

Shelley (not a kid)
Gardner (should he start over Jackson? I don't think so)
Miranda (he could play 1B while Giambi DHs?)
and Cervelli

Note Jackson isn't on the 40-man roster, and doesn't need to be added until after 2009. But they have an open 40-man spot right now, so it could be done easily. Though IIRC, Trenton has the best record in the Eastern League, so he won't be available until they're done in the playoffs.

It would have been nice to see what Giambi and Damon could vs a LHP, even if it meant playing one of them on the turf. Sigh.

2008-08-11 19:29:15
206.   51cq24
204 impact of the crime isn't the same as identity of the alleged criminal. bonds shouldn't be treated differently. but i agree with your main point, the racism argument is irrelevant.
2008-08-11 19:30:57
207.   monkeypants
202 Again, why do you assume that I am not outraged (a pretty tired word these days) by the sins of the past? What do want? All of the bad old racists thrown out of the HOF? OK, fine, maybe that's a good idea. But that does not mean we should not be angry over the steroids era. That's simply fuzzy thinking, in my opinion.

If you want to argue that ateroids were okay, that's fine. But that argument should stand on its own merits. It should not be a relative argument. Nor should lack of justice or reparations for past sins be used to obviate discussion and/or punishment of current transgressions.

2008-08-11 19:33:04
208.   Schteeve
188
1) You are assuming I'm not african american. That's a pretty stupid thing to do.

2) Sheff likes to accuse people of racism without any evidence of it. It's a fact. And I think it's offensive.

3) You are assuming I like Joe Torre.

In short, spare me the outrage when you are making ignorant assumptions.

And with that, and this miserable game, I'll see you cats next year.

2008-08-11 19:33:10
209.   randym77
I don't think they'll be adding Jackson to the 40-man until they have to, or until they think he's ready to play in the big leagues, whichever comes first.

Once a player is added to the 40-man, you can't get him off without passing him through waivers. Worth the risk for the Colter Beans of the world, but not the Austin Jacksons.

2008-08-11 19:33:55
210.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
207 Ok, that is a good point. I Still find too many member of the baseball establishment to be hypocrites, but ok. Talking "only" about steroids..well...I just don't care. It's not any different to me than amphetamines, sports training, private nutritionists, etc etc. Hard to say it's cheating in my book, when a majority of the players were on something..we just don't know, and CAN'T know now so why not drop it?
2008-08-11 19:34:40
211.   JL25and3
205 Yeah, but they do have 47 righty relievers with some upside.
2008-08-11 19:35:19
212.   monkeypants
206 My point is that in the world of celebrity (including professional sport) adulation and scrutiny are the rewards and punishments (along with salary, of course).

It would be parallel I guess to ignoring the small time drug dealer but prosecuting to the fullest extent the big time dealer. Bonds actions had a greater impact on the game from a historical perspective, so he (IMO) is the "worse criminal" and warrants the more severe punishment: that is, increased media scrutiny.

2008-08-11 19:36:26
213.   51cq24
208 1) i never said you weren't black or that only white people can make offensive statements about race. are you black?
2) are you sure he enjoys it? do you have evidence that he's wrong? do you ever state a claim or opinion without physical evidence?
3) i never said you were a joe torre fan, i asked. are you?
2008-08-11 19:38:16
214.   51cq24
212 as a deterrent or pure punishment? the former i could live with, the latter is unfair.
2008-08-11 19:38:26
215.   Schteeve
188 I mean are you that dumb? The "race card" doesn't imply an advantage. The "race card" simply means that anytime someone does something to sheff that he doesn't like, he claims it's due to his race, or their racism.

Second, Sheff is a huge racist, in the sense that he said baseball management prefers to employ latin players because they are easier to control than brothers. So he is saying that latin dudes are soft, or dumb. Real nice.

2008-08-11 19:38:54
216.   monkeypants
209 Yeah, good point.

Oh great, now Sterling is going on and on about the yankees inability to hit fly balls with men on third. I sure hope that the F.O. doesn't buy into that nonsense. I don't want to see the 1982 Go-Go Yankees again.

2008-08-11 19:39:29
217.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
212 but see, now you are bringing in "historical perspective" into the argument..therefore, why reject discussion of segregation as well?

got to jet, but thanks for the back&forth, very interesting. Arigato Gozaimasu!

2008-08-11 19:41:21
218.   Schteeve
and since we're wordsmithing, racist isn't the correct word, Sheff is a bigot.

And I'm sorry I called you dumb. That was uncalled for.

And as for whether or not I'm black, draw your own conclusions.

As for whether or not I'm a Joe Torre fan, I think he was a mediocre baseball manager. Beyond that, I have no opinion of him, because I have never met him.

2008-08-11 19:41:32
219.   Shaun P
211 If the Yanks are out of it, I'd actuallyu prefer to not see some of those righty relievers in the bigs come Sept. 1 unless they need the innings. Yeah, I think Melancon will rock, but are 12 MLB innings really going to help him? Cox and Whelan at least have the virtue of needing to be added to the 40-man this offseason, but I don't think either is ready for the big leagues.

I can't help but wonder if Horne had stayed healthy and pitched well this year, if Cashman wouldn't have considered packaging IPK with one of the middle reliever types to get a bat . . .

209 True, but they can option him from MLB to AAA without worrying about waivers if he's not ready. Given that Melky looks so bad, Christian isn't an answer, Gardner looked so bad, and I don't want to see Damon in CF full time with that arm, Jackson may well be the best CF option going forward. Though you're right, if they don't think he's ready, by all means, leave him down.

2008-08-11 19:42:25
220.   randym77
Wow. Two hours and 14 minutes. Yanks must have had dinner reservations or something.
2008-08-11 19:43:06
221.   monkeypants
214 I'll have to think about it more. I assume with celebrities that deterrent and punishment are to closely related to separate. It's like booing Manny because he behaves like an ass. Players in theory do not like to get booed, so booing him is both punishment for past actions and deterrent for future actions. What makes Manny (and Bonds for that matter) no frustrating is that they are apparently impervious to the same social sanction which seems to be effective with most celebrities and/or aristocracies. Heck, even the Roman emperors didn't like to get jeered at the track even though it had no practical impact.
2008-08-11 19:45:28
222.   JL25and3
I think the hypocrisy surrounding steroids and the Mitchell report has been astounding. The report itself made it clear that there was a ton of blame to go around, straight up to the commissioner's office. (And why exactly is Brian Sabean still employed?)

And having said that, I just can't feel sorry for Bonds. No one wants him for another year, at age 44, with a federal perjury charge hanging over his head? Oh, dear, the poor man will have to go home and cry on his $200 million.

Honestly, what's happened to him that's so terrible? Why exactly am I supposed to be outraged?

2008-08-11 19:48:11
223.   randym77
219 Yes, they could option him to the minors, but that just gets him off the 25-man. He has to stay on the 40-man.

That means when the Rule 5 draft rolls around, there's one less spot the Yanks can use to protect players who actually need it.

Might be worth it if they really think he can contribute, but they can't just call up a bunch of kids for the heck of it. There are consequences involving the roster and the clock that they probably won't want to deal with.

2008-08-11 19:52:44
224.   51cq24
215 isn't that an advantage then? that black people have a built in excuse that white people don't? by your definition, only a minority can play this race card. it's called the "race card" because it's supposedly some kind of trump card that black people have when they face any kind of disappointment. personally, i think it's offensive and implies that calling someone a racist is worse than actually being racist.
as for the latino player comments, i agree that they were not appropriate. but i'm not sure they were racist. he could have been saying that baseball management exploits latino players because they know less english or have lower financial expectations.
thanks for taking back the insult!
2008-08-11 19:53:09
225.   monkeypants
222 What I find interesting in a way is how no one seems to feel sorry for Clemens. He claims that he was innocent, and he claimed further that he would not return to the game because of the supposedly false allegations. In effect, he has claimed openly that he was driven from the sport by the same hypocritical, flawed Mitchell Report. Opinion on Bonds is somewhat divided, but I have never heard anyone stand up for Clemens.

Now, do I feel bad for Roger? Not one bit. I just find this all very interesting.

OK, enough of that dead horse for me.

2008-08-11 19:55:52
226.   Chyll Will
218 I found your profile, Schteeve. You ain't foolin' anyone...

http://tinyurl.com/5w5tgf

2008-08-11 19:58:22
227.   Shaun P
223 Right now, the Yanks are at 39 on the 40-man roster. They need 2 more open spots for Albaladejo, Brackman, and Sanchez. So that's 42.

By my count, the only 2 guys who need to be added to the 40-man are Whelan and JB Cox (44) (well, so does Marcos Vechionacci, but no one is going to want to take him in the Rule 5 draft). Giambi, Sexson, Abreu, I-Rod, Ponson, probably Rasner, likely Marte, possibly Traber, and Pavano all come off the 40-man (yes, I'm thinking Moose and Pettitte stay). That drops them down to 35, leaving 5 spots open. If they needed more room, they could also jettison Shelley (Miranda makes him superfluous, no?) and/or Christian (if A-Jax can play, he is also superfluous).

My point being, even if they then sign Tex, CC, and Dunn, that still leaves at least 2, and possibly 4, open spots on the 40-man. (And that's without eliminating any of the 34 righty relievers.) Hence, plenty of room for Jackson.

2008-08-11 20:02:24
228.   Schteeve
226 You got me. ;)
2008-08-11 20:02:51
229.   OldYanksFan
226 Wow! Schteeve is REALLY Black. I mean, all the way Black. Cool. Thanks Chyll.
2008-08-11 20:05:08
230.   randym77
227 Maybe. But I can't see them doing that trivially. They will probably be signing free agents who will need spots on the 40-man. Last year they ended up cutting players they didn't want to lose, just to make room on the 40-man. They may be "expendable," but why lose them if you don't have to? You never know when you'll need them due to injury, or as trade bait.
2008-08-11 20:09:05
231.   monkeypants
Meanwhile, Pete Abe is pretty much mocking Girardi for sitting Damon today. He also had this entry:
========
UPDATE, 6:42 p.m.: Damon is out of the lineup because Girardi decided not to play him. That's it.

"I put a lineup up," Girardi said. "Johnny's played a lot."
If turf is the issue, why not DH Damon and play Nady in left? Damon is hitting .292 against lefties.

Meanwhile, Girardi would not discuss the final play of yesterday's game, refusing to get into it other than to say it has been addressed just like everything else has been addressed.
==========

I wonder if the media will begin to turn on Girardi? Or maybe it already has (I don't read print sports, so I don't know what the buzz is)?

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