"Here come the new Boss-just like the old Boss". Hank Steinbrenner is quoted in the Daily Rag about Joba "I want him as a starter and so does everyone else, including him, and that is what we are working toward and we need him there now. There is no question about it, you don't have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don't do that. You have to be an idiot to do that." I guess that means we're not going to try to make the playoffs this season but instead hope one of the three works out for the future. I just hope that they protect Jobs's arm since he's the youngest and throws the hardest.
I'm not asking for anyone to say "you told us so" but I wondered long and often this preseason on this board what we would do when Hughes and Kennedy needed to be sent down to the Minors. Well, looks like we're going to find out. Wouldn't it be nicer to have Wang, Pettite and Santana pitching in that order. Well, here's hoping I'm wrong about Hughes and Kennedy but 9. + something ERA's don't even win you wildcard status.

0 He's right. Joba should start rather than be the designated 8th inning guy.
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1 Despite what you and WilliamNYY say, Hughes and Kennedy do not need to be sent to the minors. 1] Other established pitchers have high ERAs right now, and 2] they need to be tested against MLB batters, not AAA.

BTW, in your little scheme, after Wang, Pettitte, and Santana, we would be watching Igawa and company. Forget it, I'll take a whole season of beatings by the youngesters rather than watch Igawa start the whole year.

2 "they need to be tested against MLB batters, not AAA."

I'm not so sure about that. I think both - and especially Hughes - could have used, and probably should have been given, more time in AAA. (I'm not talking about any possible alternatives here, just about their development.)

During the offseason I did say, repeatedly, that I expected at least one of the three kids to take a significant step backwards this year, and that before the ASB at least one would have been on the DL or in AAA.

Having said that, I wouldn't send anyone down - yet. I also wouldn't let this kind of shellacking go on all that much longer, though.

3 Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see the shellacking. I see lots of walks and singles, but not tons of homers and doubles. I see young pitchers nibbling and getting behind in the count, and dying deaths by a thousand cuts. I also see (with Hughes) consecutive starts where the BP allowed ALL inherited runners to score, thus exaggerating his ERA.

3 To continue, look at Hughes' splits so far this season. OBA is .357, and his BAbip is a crazy .403; he has given up 25 H in 19 INN, but only 6 2B and 0 3B or HR. He is getting singled and walked to death.

Kennedy's corresponding numbers are somewhat worse by comparison.

There is no question about it, you don't have a guy with a 100-mile-per-hour fastball and keep him as a setup guy. You just don't do that. You have to be an idiot to do that."

Uh oh, he wants Farnsworth to start! :)

While Hank's supporting logic is ridiculous, his overall conclusion is right on.

As for Santana. The Yankees are in early trouble this season, mainly because of an offense that is collapsing under the weight of long expensive contracts like Giambi's and Damon's.

If we are to learn lessons from the past...

Of course Joba should start. But if he starts now, he'll run into his ~140ish innings limit sometime in August.

Hank says, "I want him as a starter . . . and we need him there now," but he also says, "It has to be done on a schedule so we don't rush him."

I see nothing wrong here. When he says, "we need him there now," he seems to be talking about current need. The results Hughes and IPK and Moose have gotten, overall, do indicate a current need for Joba starting. If he'd give up less than 1 ER/IP, and could throw 6 innings regularly. But he can't go 6 innings yet, and Hank seems to know this - hence, the "so we don't rush him".

Let ESPN and the rest make a big deal out of these quotes. That's how they make money. When I see something stupid happen, say Joba being bumped to the rotation tomorrow, then I'll be worried. In the meantime, no worries.

5 I've missed the fine points of the discussion, but I'm with you, monkeypants. Or, as Alex said earlier today, Think About It (Just a Little Patience). The kids'll come around. If on May 21st they are both still struggling, then maybe you send them down, if only for confidence. But that's still a month away.

8 And, FWIW, the Yanks survived last year giving multiple appearances (over 140 IP) to the likes of Igawa, DeSalvo, Ty Clippard, Karstens, Wright, and Pavano. So I'm not ready to panic after 27 IP from Hughes and IPK. Talent wins out.

5 "He is getting singled and walked to death."

You can't gloss over those walks - 10 in 16 innings.

Also, while Hughes is doing well against righties (.282/.333/.308), lefties are feasting off him: .452/.553/.613. And the 5 doubles in 31 AB by lefties suggests to me that their .500 BABIP against him may be due to line drives rather than luck.

To me, he looks just like a kid who could have used a little more time in AAA. He'll be damn good, he's just not quite ready.

1 To follow up on 2 you'd currently have a rotation of Santana, Wang, Pettitte, Moose and Igawa. That's 3 useful starters, you'd still have problems with 2 of your slots. You also wouldn't have Melky in CF, who is currently batting .281/.358/.456 for a 122 OPS+, all while playing stellar defense. Instead, you'd be looking at Damon in CF and Matsui in LF. That would be an offensive downgrade, and a huge one defensively. Also, Santana has so far given up 1, 2, 3, and 4 ERs against weaker competition. With our offense not scoring how much of an upgrade would that be? Now factor in the payroll increase. I for one fully expected the kids to struggle a bit. Look at Maddux, Clemens and Pettitte their first year or two. It takes time. Patience is key.

10 I'm not glossing over the walks at all. As for his lack of success against lefties, look at the isolated power.

I'm not saying that he is unlucky per se, I just see a kid who is nibbling, getting behind, putting guys on base, and giving up singles (especially to lefties). Maybe he could work this out in the minors. Or maybe he needs to work it out against MLB hitting.

i would LIKE to think that Girardi getting hot under the collar about IPK not throwing strikes combined with Young Stein's remarks about the rotation will serve as a warning shot across the young starters' collective bow.

i think we'll see a different approach from both these guys next time around the rotation. they just need to throw strikes and let the defense do its job - oh wait.... ;)

I think Hughes will learn more about how to pitch to ML batters, by pitching to ML batters. As long as it doesn't turn into something that ruins his confidence, he'll get more useable experience at the big league level than he will in AAA.

While Hank may be right, his comments are nothing more than second guessing and entirely inappropriate coming from an owner or the son of an owner. Another sign that Cashman is all but gone.

10 He was throwing a lot more strikes against the O's last time. Had Girardi lifted him after 5, we'd be talking about his improved start. Had A-Rod thrown home, he gets through 6 giving up one run. It wasn't a stellar start (the low K total is bothersome) but to pretend he was Kei Igawa out there is not fair.

Just for comparison, in his first full year Greg Maddux went 6-14 with a 5.61 ERA. Roger Clemens went 9-4 with a 4.32 ERA and Andy went 12-9 with a 4.17 ERA.

According to BR data, Hughes LD% is 32%.

11 I don't have a problem with the idea that they'll struggle, or we need some patience. And yes, great pitchers have been given the chance to get knocked around at the major-league level - though they're generally given the chance to dominate at AAA first. (Pettitte, btw, was just fine his first year.) But let's not kid ourselves, Hughes is getting knocked around pretty good, and I wouldn't want to keep letting this happen through the end of May.

16 To follow up on Pettitte: that 4.17 was when the league ERA was 4.71. It was good for an ERA+ of 111.

18 He was also older and had a few really craptacular starts--including at least one (August 21, 1995) that would make Hughes' Boston start look like Cy Young reborn.

Oh, and his ERA after his first four appearances (albeit in relief)? 9.82.

I can't believe this. Does he want him to start now or in August and September? Does he want him around for 3 years or 15? Does he want . . . oh who cares?

What I thought was interesting and perhaps telling was Ca$h asking rhetorically "I wonder what set him off" or something close to that. That didn't sound like a guy talking about his Boss publicly who plans on being around for the long term. I didn't like the sound of that at all.

Silly suggestion: do you think that the Yankees would be willing to go with a 6-man rotation - say, Wang, Mussina, Hughes, Pettitte, Kennedy, Chamberlain? Or, would Chamberlain replace one of Kennedy or Hughes?

And, is there any update on Alan Horne?

21 One of my suggestions over the winter was to have a 6-man rotation, but with Wang and Pettitte pitching every fifth day. That means each of the other four would miss one start every four times through the rotation (and, presumably, be available for long relief at some point in there).

12 I'm not sure how to solve nibbling at the plate - tough it out against MLB hitters? Gain confidence by destroying AAA hitters?

But, if lefties are a problem, Thursday's game should be an interesting test. The ChiSox have two lefties, and one switch hitter, on the roster. Swisher (the switch hitter) is pretty bad as a LHB vs RHP, so far this year (.220/.365/.390). AJ Pierzynski (one of the LHB) is due to regress from his current .339/.393/.554 line. The other LHB is Thome; he might be a problem.

Then Hughes faces Detroit, who has one regular LHB, Jacque Jones (currently at .195/.244/.195), and two switch hitters, Carlos Guillen, who's killing everyone, and Ramon Santiago, who has 12 PAs so far.

17 18 I'm not arguing that Hughes is pitching well right now. I'm just saying its a bit early to call for him to be demoted after four starts. For example, Andy started awfully in relief in '95. Then he had two good starts, followed by: 4 ER in 4.2 innings, and 6 ER in 5.1 innings. That looks a lot like Hughes couple of starts. Then in August he had two consecutive starts of 0.2 innings and 6 ER, and 2.2 innings, with 6 ER and 5 BBs!

My point is that all pitchers fluctuate, and kids in their rookie seasons tend to pitch well one game (Hughes first start, Kennedy's second) and then crappy the next.

17 That is bad, but, it is only 16.3 IP. I agree though, if its still that bad come mid-May, some time in AAA might help Hughes.

Sending Joba to the minors to start would mean giving up on this season. He has only pitched professionally for one season before this year, starting a grand total of 15 games in the minors. And only one of those was at AAA. To think he can be sent down for a month and brought back as an effective starter--now THAT'S idiotic.

As long as Cashman and Girardi think they're guiding a viable contender, Joba should and will stay in the pen. But if Hughes and Kennedy continue to struggle, and Moose keeps getting hammered, this team is going to struggle to make the postseason, even when they start to hit. Joba isn't going to be able to do anything about that, whether he's in the pen, the rotation, Scranton, New York, Calcutta or Jerusalem. At that point, then it's time to send him down, start grooming him to start and see what the other guys in the pen are made of.

24 , 25 I think we're pretty much in agreement. I think some time in AAA probably would have been good for Hughes, but I'm not advocating that he be sent down at this point.

Things will get better once Pavano comes back.

27 But then the kid almost threw a no hitter last year and was lights out down the stretch and in the ALDS. Hughes also dominated in the minors during his rehab assignment last year, I'm just not sure what else there is to prove. If its some mechanical thing, I'd say Eiland is the most qualified to fix it. I'm reserving judgement till mid-May at the earliest. He pitched 4 games, one very good, one so so and two bad.

28 You are 134ed

I, for one, would rather miss the playoffs than have to watch Kei Igawa and Darrel Rasner starting for the Yankees.

Bring back Aaron Small!

31 Rasner I don't mind. Igawa is another story altogether.

29 Excellent point about Eiland.

31 are those 2 mutually exclusive?

28 so true, so true.

31 i completely agree, even though i know i'd get an earful about it for many, many painful months. give the kids a chance.

anyone but igawa.

34 another good point.

we won 9 games in all of april '07.

No kidding that Joba should be a starter. And that's the plan all along, the question is merely how to get there. Are you goig to get him 25 starts with a max of 6 innings pitched each time? That's 150 innings right there, which is over what they want him to throw this year, IIRC. And BTW, it is less # of innings and more # of pitches. A whole bunch of 10 pitch innings would be real nice.

I expect growing pains from Hughes, IPK, and Joba this year, which might make the team miss the playoffs (considering the offense isn't clicking yet).

29 Tommy, cherry-picking good starts is no more useful than looking only at bad ones. The fact that he's pitched very well on occasion shouldn't hide the fact that he's generally pitching poorly. And the fact that he pitched well in the majors over a short period doesn't mean he's proven he's ready.

29 , 38 I'm not even sure why I bothered with that last response, because looking back at your previous one, I don't see what the disagreement is.

I still think Hughes needs to trust his stuff and be more aggressive later in counts. Once he is able to go after hitters with some confidence I think the results will come. His stuff is really filthy; late life, big break, great arm action. I honestly think it's a mental thing as much as anything.

Kennedy needs to hit his spots, he's a command guy who doesn't seem able to command the zone at times. Even while he was holding the O's down the other night he was missing too much. Continued work should straighten him out as well.

You'd think a guy like Hank who was supposedly raised on this stuff could find it in his heart to be a voice of reason through this. Guess not.

0 Mama say mama sah mama coo sah
mama say mama sah mamacoosah.

40 MFD, I think Hank is just frustrated, and we know he isn't shy about speaking to the media. If Hank's comments were a shot at anyone, I took them for a shot at Mussina, not Hughes and IPK. I remain not worried.

Cashman's comments to Newsday I took as frustration as well, because I think Cash wishes that Hank would be quiet. Not because what he's saying is wrong, but because his words make unnecessary noise. Unnecessary noise might (likely does?) cause the team, especially the kids, to deal with something that isn't playing on the field.

Yes, its good for the kids to learn how to deal with "playing in NY", but why needlessly make it harder on them?

42 MFD, I agree completely "why make it unnecessarily harder for them?" I also read that as a shot at Moose (which I won't loose lots of sleep over). I do think Ca$h took a shot back which worries me just a bit but maybe he was just trying to defuse things a bit for the kids.

38 39 Right. I think I was trying to make the point that Hughes resume is so small right now that you can cherry pick him to look great, or look awful. Me? I think he's a great pitcher of the future who's learning how to pitch to ML hitters. I think I'm against sending him down because last year on rehab he tore up the minors and then got shelled in his first few starts up.

Also, two of Hughes' starts have been in atrociously bad weather. Both really cold and the KC start was in the rain. Let's see how he does a few more starts with the warmer weather.

I'll admit it, there's a bit of fanboy in me here since I love Hughes and want to see him succeed. Still, from an objective viewpoint I don't yet see demoting him helping either the team or him at this point. In the minors he rarely if ever had to work in pressure situations. He was so good that I think one year no runner reached third base on him. If he goes back down and faces that again, he's learned nothing. I really think he just needs to take his lumps and battle through it. Even King Felix had a hard time his first full year, especially in the early going.

To paraphrase: "The Boss is retired, long live the Boss!

Hank is right. I don't see the Yankees going any where, anyway at the rate this season is going so they might as well give Joba his chance to start sooner than later. He can learn along with Hughes and Kennedy so they enter next season improved starters.

28 so true. We will be saved shortly. Or perhaps after the all star break?

44 But I'm not advocating sending him down at this point. I'm saying, "if he's still pitching this way in a month I'd think about sending him down." You're saying, "I wouldn't think about sending him down until at least a month from now." I don't think that constitutes a disagreement.

47 Ah, I was actually trying to say before I agreed with you...sorry.

45 The reason Joba is not starting now is all about his innings limits. The outlook on the season and taking his lumps don't change that fact. If he throws more than 150 or so, his chances of being hurt or ineffective next year increase drastically. Nothing has changed about that.

Cano is not hitting, Giambi is not hitting, the defense hasn't been all that great, there have been some injuries, and 10-10 record is the fault of two kids pitchers in their start of their career.

And May is not till next week.

49 Spot on. Why the inescapable logic of that argument isn't embraced by one and all escapes me. It's not just about this year.

Anyone else remember being, what 9-14 last April? We've already won more games!

50 Everyone knows its the lack of the foul pole squirrel. As soon as he comes back, everything will be fine.

53 one of the cooler moments that I witness on my television, what a crazy vantage point that would point

50 In other words, don't panic!

Well said.

49 What am I missing here? All the Yankees have to do is limit Joba's bullpen appearances so that he can make some starts in the second half of the season.

49 I'm not sure what the concern is about moving Joba into the starting rotation now or very soon. As I fugure it, after about 120-130 innings last season, he is limited to about 150 or so this year. We are in game 21 and he has thrown 6 INN. If were to relieve once more and then start in a few games, say game when there are 135 games left in the season, he would be looking at a maximum of around 27 starts.

If he averages 5 innings in those starts, that is 135 INN, plus the 6 he has thrown plus maybe 1 or 2 more for the hypothetical last relief appearance. The total: about 145 INN.

In other words, he could be moved into the starting rotation in about a week, on a strict INN/pitch limit, and not even exceed his INN limit. If he was able to go 6 or 7 INN on occasion, that could easily be made up by skipping him an occasional start and/or limiting him to a couple of three inning or four inning stints.

So basically, because he has been used so sparingly so far, they are in a position to start him very, very soon without having to do anything too tricky to stay within his INN limit.

Well 57 , they say he's on a 140 inning limit. And it would be nice to save a handful for October, no?

41 Nice. :)

58 OK, make it 140 INN. That means you only need to "save" 5 INN somewhere--skip him an extra start, or put him in the rotation in two weeks instead of one. Plus, Cashman has already said (I thought) that the post season would not count against INN limits.

I, for one, think we should be discussing how Detroit and Cleveland are 'all but done'.
How CC and Zito need to retire. How Soriano, Howand, Big Papi and scores of other players, both young and old, need to be DFA'ed.

We said 3 weeks ago that with our schedule and the crappy weather we would be happy to play .500 ball. Well... are we happy?

So 'a boss' takes a shit, and oops... it's on Cashman's head. What else is new. With IPK and Phil we should be happy that their problems are really above the shoulders. Not stuff, talent or injury... but approach.

Yeah, I wish they were doing better. Yeah, I hope (and expect) them to finish the year with league average ERAs of better. But I'm not going to panic or question about Santana.

Very much like the 2nd half last year, it's up to the entire team to play like a team and get us to the playoffs. Some guys will have good years, some will have bad. That's the nature of the sport. To micromanage the results of this season after 20 games is fruitless.

We play the game one the field. We brings kids up if we can/need. Maybe we make a mid-season trade or 2.

In terms of Phil and IPK, I would simply let them know that that Yankees support them 100% and I would do everything I can for their confidence. I'd ask THEM if they want time in AAA. Give THEM some sense of control. Let them know we will win with whatever they do so they can relax and just play their game.

I've seen a lot of guys come up. Murcer, Munson, Bernie, Donnie, RJ amd Nolan. First years do not mean shit.

If this wasn't NY, there would be no issues here, other then the RCNB... so move along, nothing to see here.

By the way, if I'm reading this correctly:

"Steinbrenner said he was 'upset' over the Yanks making Chamberlain a reliever last season, though he acknowledged that the Yankees probably wouldn't have made the playoffs without Chamberlain's setup work."

... isn't he saying "I'm just a mouthy dumbass, don't listen to anything I say"?

62 This is presumably just the stupid point that no Joba last year at all = no playoffs. Though I don't recall given the innings limit what scenarios with Joba starting already would have worked.

Please read PeteAbe's latest post:

"Hank wasn't involved last season and he didn't understand what we were doing at that time," Cashman said. "I explained it to him and he had no problems with it." (doah!)

Ooops... starter? starter? I thought you said FARTER!
Well..... never mind!

62 He may be a dumbass, but he could also be making the argument that longterm development is better than short term games: ie, better to have used him as a starter last year, even if it meant missing the playoffs, because he would have been more prepared to start this season.

Of course, if that is his argument, it would be wrong anyway, since Cashman has stated that they decided to move him to the BP last year because he was approaching his innings limit. No matter how they used joba, they were only going to get about 20 INN or so.

And yeah, is it true the wouldn't have made they playoffs without him?

60 I do seem to remember that the PS doesn't count. But I have no idea why that would be.

the longer he stays in the bullpen, the more people will claim that he's indispensable there, the less anyone will be willing to send him to the minors to stretch out, and he'll be there all season. i truly believe that if he's going to start this season at all, it has to be soon. personally i'm not sure which role is better for him this year (because of the innings limit), but i do worry that the longer he's in the bullpen the more everyone will view him as a reliever. so i'm inclined to support him moving to the rotation, even if the innings limit means he won't be giving us the length we would need from a starter given the much weaker bullpen.

66 I think for the simple reason that the playoffs require a different calculus. A team simply cannot plan on making the playoffs and limit innings accordingly: the danger would be that you "save", say, 20 innings for Joba (for example), so that he can pitch in the PS. But then he only pitches about 120 INN during the season, so if they miss the playoffs he may not actually have pitched any more innings than the season before. So, you're in the same boat next season.

If you are fortunate, you know you are going to make the playoffs, so you can rest a young pitcher in the last few weeks.

But lets say that Joba (for example) reaches his limit of c. 140 INN and the team makes the PS. At that point the goals of winning in the PS begin to outweigh the risk of pushing the INN. At the same time, there is a good chance that PS innings would be limited in any case. You go with a three man staff (Wang, Pettitte, X), so our hypothetical Joba might pitch out of the pen. In that case, what are they looking at? 10 extra innings?

Completely off-topic, but I wandered over from Dodger Thoughts to say that I just read "Stepping Up," Alex, and enjoyed it.

69 I think passing on Santana showed us that Cashman is dedicated to developing our prospects and building a long term solution. I don't believe he will do anything to jeapardise Joba, or Phil or IPK for that matter.

I don't believe Cashman is even 0.0001% influenced by "the more people will claim", or what we or M&MD think. He is very clear on what he wants to do.

This is why he will leace Joba in the BP for most/all of the 1st half, to insure that we have some wiggle room in Jobas IPs for the PS. He is not going to mess with Joba's health in exchange for maybe winning 3 or 4 more games in the regular season. Calls for bringing Joba into the SR immediately are panic statements and go against Cashman's carefully prepared plan.

I hope his job in not on the line based on this season's results. In 2005, the Yankees were heading in a very dangerous direction. Had it not been for the amazing talent we have gathered in the last 2 years, our future would be very dark.

For all those fans doubting the fastball of Phil Hughes (or Mike Mussina, for that matter):

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/how-fast-should-a-fastball-be/

Punchline: In general, there is no difference in runs allowed between an 87 mph fastball and a 96 mph fastball. What matters is location, location, location.

71 Oh cooool...I'm going to read this later tonight or tomorrow for sure. Thanks for the link!

I think 61 summed it up perfectly

50 No one ever remotely suggested that.

61 et al. Similarly, who's ever said that this first year is going to be indicatibve of a career? How is it relevant that people have had bad first years and gone on to have good careers?

As for asking the kids if they want to go down - I'm sorry, but that's a silly idea. It's not up to them to manage their careers at this point. It's up to management to decide if that's what they need and tell them. The important thing is whether they need to pitch in the majors or whether they need to pitch in AAA, not whether they're given some sense of "control" over their careers, control that they simply shouldn't be given.

Finally, if the Yankees were really serious about putting development ahead of this year's record, they'd have Joba in long relief, not a setup role.

74 "Finally, if the Yankees were really serious about putting development ahead of this year's record, they'd have Joba in long relief, not a setup role."

Bingo!

Well said.