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The Power of Joe
2007-10-12 05:46
by Alex Belth
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Once again, the Yankees have left Joe Torre twisting in the wind. And once again, Torre might have them exactly where he wants them. In recent days, the New York papers have been filled with support for Torre--from columnists to players (Robinson Cano, Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Ron Villone, Mariano Rivera and Roger Clemens to name a few). Heck, even David Ortiz praised Torre yesterday.

The Yankees are expected to sort out Torre's future with the team early next week when top executives meet in Tampa. The latest has them offering Torre the job with a significant paycut (from $7 million to 4). Torre will still come out smelling like a rose if the Yankees decide not to bring him back, and by being silent, he's putting the onus squarely on them.

We all know how much Torre loves being the manager of the New York Yankees, and we know he's been willing to take a certain amount of crap from the front office--maybe he just lets it roll off his back--in order to keep the position.

So, regardless of whether or not you think he should return, here's my question: Will Joe Torre be managing the 2008 Yankees?

Comments (271)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-10-12 06:14:56
1.   Dimelo
I'm a huge Torre fan, but a major part of me is starting to think that it might be better if he doesn't return. If he doesn't return, then that would put more pressure on Cashman.

I love Torre and I have no bone to pick with him, however, I really hate how is mistreated by a great many Yankee fans and to a lesser extent the FO.

So an emphatic "NO" from me, I don't think Torre will return to manage the Yanks. We can then put to bed the "Torre losses", and the patronizing comments directed to someone who has given me MANY more happier moments than bad.

2007-10-12 06:17:59
2.   Andre
Torre will be back. You heard it here first.
2007-10-12 06:20:55
3.   Shaun P
YEEESSSSSSSS.

2 You are correct, sir.

2007-10-12 06:25:14
4.   domvjr
I think Joe should tell the FO to take the job and shove it. I'm torn between maybe they need a different approach, but I have been a fan for over 50 years, and I've seen the turmoil under the Boss, and since Torre's been manager, the class exhibited by him and the team, while making the playoffs every year overrides his faults.
He has put up with enough crap from George, and the Tampa cabal. If he doesn't come back and the Yankees start off crappy again next year, maybe all the johnny come lately fans, since "96" will realize what they had.
2007-10-12 06:27:21
5.   unpopster
of course none of us know what is going on behind the scenes but I wonder whether there is a concerted effort by some of the veteran players (Jeter, Posada, Pettitte, Mo, Arod, etc.) to lobby the FO and George to bring back Joe. The longer this plays out the more I think the players themselves will be the determining factor.

Should Joe go? well, if the decision were made solely on his track record as an in-game manager -- one that often burns out bullpen arms, abuses younger pitchers, plays favorites with his vets, doesn't bunt when it's prudent, etc. -- then of course he should. But if a Torre departure means an unhappy veteran core of players and the insertion of a younger manager who can't handle the zoo that is the NY Yankees, then I'm all for a Torre return with caviots.

My fear is that Torre leaves, the vets mutiny, and the new manager suffers under the pressure. Then, we're looking at a 3rd place finish next year behind the Sox and Jays and no playoffs at all.

So, jeez. Will Torre be managing the 2008 Yankees? My gut says "yes". I just don't really know if I like what my gut is saying, though.

2007-10-12 06:33:58
6.   unpopster
oh, and just to add to 5 , Joe Torre has been the manager of the NY Yankees throughout the last 12+ years of aramaggedon-style Yankees-Red Sox wars. He led those Yankee teams into those mega battles with class and respect.

The Red Sox-Yankees rivalry is about as pressure-filled as can be...Can a Mattingly or LaRussa or Girardi be the leader that Torre was when it counts, i.e. Fenway Park, late September, game on the line, all hell breaking loose?

If I only take that single instance into consideration then, yes Torre should return.

2007-10-12 06:34:13
7.   Dimelo
I'm a huge Torre fan, but a major part of me is starting to think that it might be better if he doesn't return. If he doesn't return, then that would put more pressure on Cashman.

I love Torre and I have no bone to pick with him, however, I really hate how is mistreated by a great many Yankee fans and to a lesser extent the FO.

So an emphatic "NO" from me, I don't think Torre will return to manage the Yanks. We can then put to bed the "Torre losses", and the patronizing comments directed to someone who has given me MANY more happier moments than bad.

2007-10-12 06:38:55
8.   RIYank
1 7 Dimelo is called out for batting out of order!

My feelings are very similiar to unpopster's, especially in 5 . As a field manager, an in-game decision-maker, Torre is mediocre. But, so are an awful lot of managers, and we should not be at all confident that his replacement will be an improvement -- I think it's very unlikely that there would be significant improvement.
The job of managing the Yankees is unlike other managerial jobs. You have to deal with and take care of a whole lot of superstars. And you have to deal with the media, the press corps, in a way that the manager of the Royals never does. Torre has proved his mettle at these special tasks.
Add the importance of re-signing the key veterans and I'm hoping Cashman will give Joe a new, two-year contract and begin looking for and grooming his replacement. And then we can get on with business.

2007-10-12 06:39:07
9.   Andre
The questions was not "do you think Joe SHOULD return" - the question was "will JT be the manager in 2008"

I just don't think the FO has the nads to make the change themselves against the tide of support from the team and most of the fan base (maybe educated fans like the type on this board excepted). I think JT will be the manager unless/until he retires.

2007-10-12 06:45:39
10.   Dimelo
8 Once I hit submit it must have stayed spinning there and I hit submit again thinking I didn't the first time.
2007-10-12 06:49:48
11.   monkeypants
Will Torre be back?

I think the answer is no. The team, I suspect, is looking at a way to extricate themselves from a sticky public opinion situation, and they may be canvassing potential managers to guarantee they have someone they want to fill the job. When that happens, they will offer Torre some odd FO job, putting the ball back in his court. He will then retire.

That's my prediction.

2007-10-12 06:54:39
12.   wsporter
Yes.
2007-10-12 06:56:45
13.   Alex Belth
Lots of people would love for Joe to tell the Yankees to go screw themselves. But that is just not Torre's style. If it was, he'd of done it years ago.
2007-10-12 07:02:43
14.   monkeypants
13 That's an interesting point. The fact that Torre keeps coming back for more begs the question: should he be seen as the honorable party, showing class and loyalty to his boys while the dealing with the ownership and front office wickedness? or, is he basically greedy, willing to whore himself for a very lucrative and high profile managerial job (and really, after the early success, like Jeter, he has garnered an unusually high clebrity status in pinstripes)?
2007-10-12 07:03:52
15.   OldYanksFan
I think he will be back. The only reason he woundn't be, is because of the statement made by Steinbreener, and his 'embarassment' about reversing that decision.

Did George want Joe gone on Oct 1?
My guess is everyone was pleased and surprised the Yankees made they playoffs. I know we were. I think we witnessed a mini-miracle. (.680 record after the ASB?)

I see that some of the candidates MIGHT be able to do what Torre has done. I have not read one opinion where the author felt sure that 'replacement A' could do the job. The common thread is almost everyone believes that almost ANYONE would be a better in-game manager, and that probably nobody can touch Torre's other skills, and maintain this smooth running machine that Torre ushed in.

I am a Torre supporter. It he has to go, he has to go. But 2 things should happen first.
1) The FO (not us Banterers) should have valid reasons to can him
2) They should have better replacements in mind.

This decision should not be a knee jerk reaction. Of ALL the PS loses over the last 7 years, this one, 2007, is most obviously on the players shoulders. Our 'Ace', who pitched 2 games, had a double digit ERA. The best offense in MLB hit under the Mendoza line as a team.
Did Torre make questionable moves? Sure.
But isn't it obvious why we lost?

2007-10-12 07:11:02
16.   wsporter
14 The first one.
2007-10-12 07:11:31
17.   OldYanksFan
"...or, is he basically greedy, willing to whore himself for a very lucrative and high profile managerial job"

Please point to ANYTHING in Joe's 12 years that could even remotely get you to draw that conclusion.

Here's been here for 12 years... with many of the team here for a good portion of those years. Jeter, Mo and Po fro the whole time. Pettitte for most of it.

This is his family. He loves this team. That isn't obvious?

2007-10-12 07:16:29
18.   VinceMig
I'd keep Joe, but I'd find a new pitching coach. Guidry is a good name, but I really don't think he helps any of these young guys.
2007-10-12 07:19:19
19.   AbbyNormal821
...and this is why I can't hate David Ortiz - good on ya, Papi!
2007-10-12 07:21:02
20.   51cq24
i'm not surprised ortiz thinks joe should stay
2007-10-12 07:23:33
21.   Adrian
Here's my feeling(s):

1. Clearly there hasn't been a lot of planning for his replacement. Yes, they elevated Mattingly to bench coach, and yes, they're floating the idea of other managers, but this whole hullabaloo doesn't look like an orderly succession. With a team full of superstars and great about-to-be-free-agents, you'd think arranging a successor would be a priority. Remember, all of this information -- Torre's contract being up, players leaving for free agency -- was available at the beginning of the year. Given all that and the Yankees horrible start to the season, you'd think they'd've been considering replacements for a while, trying to ensure an orderly transition in case Joe didn't win it all.

2. You've got a groundswell of player support for Joe. There's also the issue that next year will be the last year in the House that Ruth Built. The Boss has a golden opportunity here to buy himself more time to train a successor, allow Joe Torre to close out an era of Yankees baseball and, at the end of next season provide the fans with a satisfyingly symbolic as well as real transition from the Yankees of Yesterday to the Bombers of Tomorrow.

3. Also, they should keep in mind that the free agent market is terrible right now. Almost all the coveted players will be coming FROM the Yankees, rather than going to the Yankees.

Ultimately, this situation is a tug-of-war between Steinbrenner's outsized ego and what's actually good for the team and the fanbase. I know I'll have a lot less trouble accepting a new manager AND a new stadium in the same year than I would going through gut-wrenching transitions 2 years running.

2007-10-12 07:25:53
22.   Alex Belth
I think there is something to that. Not so much that Torre is greedy necessarily but that the Uncle Joe image is something that isn't accidental. It's a front, not that it is insincere. But Torre is out for Torre, make no mistake about that.

He's willing to get dumped on in order to keep his job, something other Yankee managers (Lou, Dallas Green, Billy, Howswer, etc) would never have been willing to put up with. Again, he's also had more leverage than any Yankee manager that previously worked for the Boss. But he'll also take his lumps in order to keep his position.

2007-10-12 07:29:45
23.   51cq24
21 and then next year it will be "oh but we gotta let joe manage the team in the new stadium."

i think he's gonna be back, and i think all things considered it's probably for the best. but i do think that there are almost definitely better in game managers out there. and eventually joe needs to be replaced.

14 i think that's a good question. remember all those times he used to say that he would retire at the end of year, or that this was his last contract and then he'd go home to his family? that's like 7 years ago. why has he changed so much that he now seems to want to manage indefinitely? i think he needs to retire, and i question what it is that keeps him from doing it. maybe good reasons, maybe not. but it is a little odd that his attitude has changed.

2007-10-12 07:35:17
24.   OldYanksFan
Certainly, the 'Torre Issue' is, if nothing else, an extremely interesting debate. There is great passion, and reason, on both sides of the equation.

It's funny, that if this were a political, or financial, or scientific issue, my first reaction would be: "Let's ask the top 10 most knowledgeable people in the field what they think". After all, if we had a political dabate here, while I would greatly respect the views of individual Banterers, I would tend to put more weight on what Henry Kissinger would have to say.

But... who are the Baseball experts? Joe Morgan (throw up a little in mouth)? The scrubs at EPSN? Fox? The NYTimes reporters? The boys at BP? John-freakin-Kruk???? Is there anyone outside of the Yankee cabal who could offer a knowledgeable, insightful, thoughtful opionion?

2007-10-12 07:38:01
25.   ms october
21 Agree fully. It's almost like the FO is just realizing that what the potential replacements' flaws are.

22 I do think his bond with the players is very real. I think his going public with the Joba rules was defintely Torre looking out for Torre.

2007-10-12 07:38:16
26.   51cq24
24 it's very demeaning how you continually belittle what everyone here has to say. it's baseball, not world politics, and it doesn't take a genius to be an expert (and henry kissinger??). we all watch the games, we all have strong opinions. maybe some are more observant than others, maybe some use stats more than others. but we're all here and we're all experts.
2007-10-12 07:41:24
27.   Yankee Fan In Boston
24 i the opinions and analysis from the contributors here carry far more weight than any of the examples you cite (which is probably your point).

even the commenters here (cuss words and all) are well-informed more often than they are not, or so it seems to me.

judging from the news the news that joe was invited to the tampa sit-down, i'm assuming he will likely be back.

2007-10-12 07:44:19
28.   Yankee Fan In Boston
27 "i the opinions"

"from the news the news"

it is official. i need more coffee.

2007-10-12 08:01:09
29.   Sliced Bread
He won't be getting Farnswacker money.
He won't even be getting Igawa money.
But High Road Joe will be back in 2008.

Bernie went from what? $15 million to a buck and a quarter, and continued to be a happy and productive soldier. Torre's the same way. He'll be happy to keep the best seat in baseball for half the money he's been making, and he should.

Torre "toughing out" a substantial pay-cut won't figure into the Posada, Rivera, or A-Rod deals, but it will likely bring back Mo and Po, and might help him win over some of the fans who wanted him gone.

2007-10-12 08:05:33
30.   OldYanksFan
26 Well... I will apologize, as it is certainly NOT my intent to insult and belittle. But let me ask:

"we all watch the games, we all have strong opinions.... but we're all here and we're all experts."

Then the bloggers on all the other Yankee Blogs who watch all the games and have strong opionions are also 'all experts'?

Logic would then seem to say that the boys over at the Rex Sox blogs who watch all the games and have strong opionions are also 'all experts'?

And if I happen to believe that people who watch baseball games on TV and have strong opionions.... but have no MLB experience, do not ever talk with Cashman or anyone else in the Yankees FO, are not included in any meetings, have no notes, agendas or Emails to read from the Yankees FO, and a thousand others aspects of knowledge that come from experience.... from being there... from living it....

if I simply don't believe that we here have enough knowledge and experience to render a fully qualified decision... then I am belittling you?

I have said it many times. The Banterers are an unusually intelligent, perceptive and funny group of Internet Blog Commenters. It is why I am here everyday, and greatly look forward to the dialog.

Possibly, I don't understand the definition of the word 'Expert'.

2007-10-12 08:06:24
31.   jeterian swing
26 I think you may have misread the comment in question...

15 I think this is exactly correct. Had Steinbrenner not made that damning comment, there would not be a question of the team's manager going into '08. It would be Torre, as it should be, and -- I believe -- it will be. I think the FO is worried about further embarrassing Big Stein by re-signing Torre after he [George] said, "We probably would not re-sign him." A pay cut makes a lot of sense: Then even George's comment can be suitably addressed ("we pay him a lot") without any dire consequences.

2007-10-12 08:16:00
32.   51cq24
30 first of all, yes, all fans are experts if they actually watch the games and pay attention.

the "experts" you alluded to were not necessarily insiders who might know more specific information about torre, but general "baseball experts" who work in the sport. if you want to know exactly what kind of stuff torre does to prepare the players, to motivate them, etc, then yes there are people who know more than we do. but if you want to know about in-game strategy and things like that, the experts are here (and at other blogs i assume).

and because of past comments you've made (along the lines of "i think joe torre knows better than all you do about what moves should be made), i interpreted your statement as something similar. i'm sorry if i was wrong, and i don't want to fight over it. but in general you do seem to give too much deference to the people who work in the sport, when all of us who watch it can come to very insightful conclusions without actually getting paid for it.

2007-10-12 08:17:21
33.   JoeInRI
28 You need to just get out of Boston get out of Boston.
2007-10-12 08:22:29
34.   Yankee Fan In Boston
33 i'd settle for a good night's sleep.
2007-10-12 08:24:13
35.   yankz
34 Tell me about it.
2007-10-12 08:25:50
36.   yankz
I hope the press blasts Pete for choking at such a crucial time. Blog down, WTF? At least Arod swings!
2007-10-12 08:27:40
37.   yankz
OT, but Boras wants a 12-year deal. Good one.

http://tinyurl.com/ypt3rs

2007-10-12 08:27:48
38.   51cq24
36 sometimes at garbage
2007-10-12 08:34:10
39.   OldYanksFan
32 You mis-read 24 . My point was, while there ARE experts in many other fields, there seem to be few in Baseball.... and I was trying to be sarcastic in referring to Joe Morgan (throw up in mouth) et al. I ended my post with a question:
Is there anyone outside of the Yankee cabal who could offer a knowledgeable, insightful, thoughtful opionion?

And I will ask you. Outside of Bloggers and people who watch games on TV, is there someone in the public view who's opinion on this issue you think would be instructional?

2007-10-12 08:37:25
40.   JL25and3
22 "He's willing to get dumped on in order to keep his job, something other Yankee managers (Lou, Dallas Green, Billy, Howswer, etc) would never have been willing to put up with."

Gee, I see that as a good thing. I think the calm, meditative, green-tea-drinking Torre is real, and I think he reached a point where he decided that it really didn't matter what the owner, the press or WFAN callers said about him. He understands his position in relation to all those entities, as well as to his players.
I don't mean that he never disagrees with the front office, or that he's never pissed off, but he knows that he's an employee and a part of an organization. Is that bad? He's also never badmouthed one of his players, at least not until after they left. (Even then - Ruben Sierra, who else?) If he can fake that - with absolute consistency - for 12 years, then he's one hell of an actor.

2007-10-12 08:43:18
41.   JL25and3
37 The fact that Boras is making a series of outrageous statements now makes me believe that Alex wants to stay in NY. Right now, the Yankees are the only game in town, so I'm thinking that all these statements and claims are for their benefit. Boras wants to get the Yankees to bid against themselves; otherwise, there's be no need to start his campaign now.
2007-10-12 08:47:19
42.   OldYanksFan
We should remember that there are objective sciences (most people agree that 5 + 5 = 10, most people agree if you throw 2 dice, the best odds are of getting 7), and there are also things that are highly subjective.

I think 'what makes a good manager' is probably more subjective then objective. I will offer someone else's opinion.
From MVN: http://tinyurl.com/2nn87z
RE: AL Manager of the Year:

1. Mike Scioscia, LAA
2. Joe Torre, NYY
3. Ron Washington, TEX

"[.....] Since I've repeatedly said I'd like to see Torre replaced, placing him second on this list might seem odd. But there's no reason not to acknowledge that he had a tough task this year and kept his team together and got them in position to make a great run to make the playoffs. That I don't think he's the right guy to handle a team that is heading into a youth era, especially with the pitching doesn't mean I don't think he has his strengths, and those played out this year."

He then makes a general statement:
"Judging managers is pretty much impossible for outsiders. So much of what they do cannot be seen, and all the more so if you don't follow the team closely. I follow the NL, but obviously not nearly as closely as I do the AL, and I'll be the first to admit that I don't have enough information to really judge Joe Torre, let alone another team's manager (would that the media and most fans would realize the same thing)."

Of course, all this is just his opinion.

It is interesting that he offers his Subjective opionion "I'd like to see Torre replaced" while trying to be Objective in rating managers, where he rates Torre 2nd.

Now on pure Logic (I think) if he believes that Torre was the 2nd best AL Manager, but he ALSO wants Torre replaced... then I guess he would want Torre replaced with either 'A best' manager or a '2nd best' manager.

Otherwise he's suggesting we get a 'worse' manager.

2007-10-12 08:47:41
43.   Chyll Will
Ahem... my intuition says Torre stays, mainly because he has the loyalty of the clubhouse; particularly key veteran players who could have a sudden and insurmountable impact on the team's competitiveness next year. Unless Cash knows something we don't about replacing Posada and A-Rod's productivity (not to mention Mo; which is an entirely different debate for another thread), I don't see anyone in this position (even a totalitarian like Steinbrenner) making such a drastic change and retaining even a modicum of respect, never mind power.

I think the bigger problem is Steinbrenner, honestly. Cashman has made some bad decisions and has handled pending free agents in an awkward and perhaps infuriating way, but without Steinbrenner's outsized ego and overzealous cronies mucking up the process and creating unneeded tension, then the attitude in the front office would change drastically.

I'm for keeping Torre if he can choose his consigliere unconditionally instead of training his replacement. Mattingly would be better served managing in the minors and forming his coaching identity there before handing him the keys to the castle. You lose Torre,,. you lose not only the clubhouse, but your playoff chances for the next few years without acceptable replacements available. Even Machiavelli would advise against this, Cash; you're riding on the wrong pony if you do.

2007-10-12 08:49:22
44.   Schteeve
I can't wait until this is resolved and we can start worrying about the really important questions like, is Molina coming back?
2007-10-12 08:50:34
45.   OldYanksFan
41 On the same page as my LINK in comment 42 is an article called: "Why the Yankees will Resign Alex Rodriguez". It echos your opinion pretty closely.
2007-10-12 08:53:02
46.   jeterian swing
39 Assuming you're asking the general populous and not just one poster, the answer, as you know, is no. That's not to say there are no informed or instructional opinions out there (BP is generally the most thoughtful, analytical and well-rounded, in my opinion), but there are too many angles to this particular issue for any one outlet to give a comprehensive reading. BP will estimate for you exactly how many wins or losses can be attrbuted to a manager (I believe they said it was plus or minus 5 in the most extreme cases), but they don't take into account the public-relations questions relative to this exact issue at this exact moment, of which there are MANY, and those questions will have enormous revenue-specific reverberations. And what journalistic outlet could provide actual insight into the thought processes of Mo, Po, Pettitte or A-Rod? Are the players using Torre as negotiation leverage? Are they sincere? Impossible to answer, and no writer or outlet can offer anything more than conjecture.
2007-10-12 08:54:32
47.   Chyll Will
43 Totally unscientific, I admit, but I reiterate: he will be back.
2007-10-12 08:57:11
48.   JoeInRI
[44}Alfred Molina?
2007-10-12 08:57:33
49.   Count Zero
Yes. Because, the Yankees FO is incredibly risk averse at this point.

In fact, I will go one further: I'll predict next year's roster is 90% the same as the end of '07 roster including Dougie at 1B. And when they fail to win in the PS in '08, we'll be having this exact same conversation after a 48 hour period of screaming about cleaning house.

It really is getting old...

2007-10-12 09:04:48
50.   ms october
47 May be unscientific, but I agree with your post in 43.
Also, I do think it would help Mattingly to manage in the minor leagues to develop his own coaching style. And it would help Joe to have a wise sage type as the bench coach that can help with the in-game/bullpen decisions.
I don't think any of the subsequent hires to Torre will have anywhere near the long run he did - I bet we see a lot of 2-5 year managers. There has been some links to the Manny Acta interview - I think he has the potential to be good at both the human/tactical aspects and is someone to have on the radar in x # of years.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-10-12 09:08:02
51.   markp
I don't know if he'll be back or not, but if he is I think I'll spend a lot more time doing other things instead of watching him mismanage the team for yet another season.
2007-10-12 09:08:51
52.   sunny615
First and foremost, I like Torre. I appreciate what he's done for the Yankees and for the team. I also appreciate what he's done for the Yankees this season, helping guide them to a great run this summer after the ASB. My initial gut reaction after the ALDS loss was Torre did a great job this season and deserves another shot.

But as more time passes, I'm probably going against the flow here and I think both the Yankees and Torre need to move forward and go their separate ways. By far, Torre's biggest criticism this year has been his in-game management. The lack of aggressive play in the ALDS being a prime example, hoping to just let his team "play" themselves to a win - virtually no steals or double steals, no hit and runs, etc. Comparing the 96-00 team to the 01-present team, his in-game aggressiveness seems to have dissapated. I understand the types of players at his disposal have also changed to the power hitter type that can't run (Giambi, Posada, Matsui, etc) from the 90's team that had more speedsters and small ball types ... and that the quality of arms in the rotation has also declined steadily since the 90's (from the 90's Clemens, Pettitte's, Key's and Hernandez's to the Pavano's, Rasner's, Brown's and RJ's), but his in-game management has not adapted to this new kind of team.

Without a doubt, Torre's biggest strength is his innate ability to handle ego's and player's - moreso with vets than youth. But it is that same ability that hampers his in-game management skills when it comes to this 21st century power hitting team. To let them "just play" and try to knock the ball out of the park instead of manufacturing runs that was the staple of the 90's dynasty. When Torre had to think more about the game and less about player's egos, he was a great manager, but with a team that now has more bad-kneed power hitters than runners, he's let his player management overtake his game management.

I think Torre is a Hall of Fame Manager, but it's also time for his tenure to end and move this club in a new direction. In the past few years, he's given enough room to let this team play it's way to the playoffs, but in the playoffs were there's nothing but a short series, that's when his managerial skills are exposed. He needed to take a more active role in the LDS and manage the team to wins instead of letting them play themselves out of one.

2007-10-12 09:16:09
53.   OldYanksFan
43 Chyll! Nice to see ya buddy. Horrid weather up here in the north country... how's it by you?

I would respectfully disagree about Cashman. He has a rule about NOT negotiating in the Spring. My guess is he would rather pay a little more in the Fall, then sign someone in the Spring who may be injured, ineffective, etc. He has been pretty consistant about this.

AND if players believe this is a hard and fast policy, they do not have to be personally 'insulted'. Cashman can always say 'we love you Mo more then life itself, and if you leave I will gouge out my eyes with flaming pokers... but I can't negotiate now... because it's George's rule'.

I personally think he has more leverage by getting to see a players 'last year' performance before signing them. It does alienate the players a bit, and probably ends up costing more in $$, but Cashman thinks this is the way to do things.

2007-10-12 09:29:48
54.   OldYanksFan
52 Of 14 teams, The Yankees were:
1st in HRs
1st in OPS
4th in SBs
2nd in SHs (tied w/2 other teams)

Doesn't the SBs and SHs numbers contradict what you said?

I don't know if/where they have stats on hit-and-runs

2007-10-12 09:35:51
55.   OldYanksFan
Wow... not one single peep about the NL game last night.
2007-10-12 09:39:41
56.   ChrisS
He'll be back, I probably won't be though, like markp. There's other things to do than watch the Yankees limp out to weak first half, charge back in the second and then get dumped out of the playoffs.
2007-10-12 09:42:42
57.   ms october
55 I flipped to it - I think the Rockies and D-Backs have some intersting young players. But then I heard the Chipster and couldn't take it.
2007-10-12 09:45:54
58.   SF Yanks
55 When the Yanks go out early, I take a baseball break for about 1-2 weeks. I could really care less about other teams right now. I don't know who played, don't know who won, don't really care. I'll watch some of the Ind/Sox games but not with much attention. All it does is make me think about the Yanks and then I get :(
2007-10-12 09:50:42
59.   51cq24
56 like watching 3 of the biggest pitching prospects start on the same team?
2007-10-12 09:54:46
60.   Shaun P
51 56 I feel bad for you guys. I would not let my like or dislike of the manager, and his infuriating strategies, dictate whether I watch the Yankees or not.

I agree with all the folks who say this situation is entirely because Steinbrenner opened his mouth. If there's no George quote in the papers, this is a completely different situation.

49 Given how big the roster was in September, I don't think we'll see 90% of it back.

In fact, I think NONE of the annoying veteran non-stars (Stinky, Villone, and Vizcaino) will be brought back, and I bet Farnsworth gets traded too. The Yanks have far too many young pitchers (and a couple hitters) who are going to need roster spots on the 40-man to waste their time mucking around with expensive, old veterans.

Once Cairo and Proctor were gone, and Joba was called up, and Minky was hurt, its amazing how the criticism of Torre's decisions decreased. Take away his veteran toys and all of sudden, the only viable complaints are his (and Jeter's) fetishes for bunting (and not squeezing enough).

In fact, I bet the Yanks will make 1B/DH a rotation between Duncan, Giambi, and Betemit, with Matsui and Damon also spending time at DH. AG will be kept as the backup MI. There will be no Stink, and maybe no Andy Phillips either.

I also foresee a pen of "Mo and the kids", which by June will be "Mo, Moose, and the kids".

2007-10-12 09:56:50
61.   JL25and3
54 To continue your point: the Yankees had more sacrifice bunts than they've had since 1996 (when they had the same number).

Only twice in Torre's time have they had more stolen bases than this year. A lineup of slow sluggers? When Damon plays they get speed from him, Jeter, Abreu, Melky and Rodriguez; Cano doesn't exactly clog up the bases, either. A team that's slow at 1b, DH and catcher doesn't trouble me.

2007-10-12 09:58:55
62.   Drew F
Despite the "twisting in the wind" meme throughout most of the press, I'm really very glad that no move has been made either way. We don't really want such a decision to be made in haste or under the crushing blow of the series loss. Taking a week to let everything simmer down will likely lead to a better decision.

This is where George's asinine comment about firing Torre if they lose the series hurts so much. It moved the public perception of the timetable to NOW. If he had said nothing, instead of 5 days of "Keep Joe" from the players, we would have Cashman saying something like, "Let's all settle down and think everything through. We'll make all contract decisions in their due time." After George's comments, if Cashman beats such a drum too loudly then it looks like he's telling George to take a hike. No matter how senile he may be, George wouldn't stand up to that.

2007-10-12 10:01:42
63.   sunny615
54. OldYanksFan

In the regular season - yes, in the playoffs - no

2007-10-12 10:07:11
64.   JL25and3
60 "I would not let my like or dislike of the manager, and his infuriating strategies, dictate whether I watch the Yankees or not."

By my count, I've seen 15 different Yankee managers (encompassing 22 managerial changes). If I watched them under Bucky Dent and Stump Merrill, Joe (one of the very best of the 15) sure isn't going to scare me away.

2007-10-12 10:16:39
65.   sunny615
2007 ALDS

Total 4 games:
Melky - 0 SB
On Base 2 times (2 hits, 0 BB, (not including the 1 HR))

Cano - 0 SB
On Base 3 times (5 hits, 0 BB, 1 2B, not including the 2 HR))

Abreu - 1 SB
On Base 5 times (4 hits, 2 BB, 1 2B, not iuncluding the 1 HR))

Damon - 0 SB
On Base 4 times (5 hits, 1 BB, not including the 2 HR))

Jeter - 0 SB
On Base 3 times (3 hits, 0 BB)

Arod - 0 SB
On Base 5 times (4 hits, 2 BB, (not including the 1 HR))

total: 22 men on base, 20 if you discount the 2 doubles, and 1 SB in 4 games.

2007-10-12 10:17:12
66.   Chyll Will
53 Nice to see you too, OYF... keep those polar caps in place, okay? >;)

I respect your disagreement; Cash has the right and the fiduciary obligation to take a hardline stance; after all, Boras is doing the same for his clients and parameters have to be established. However, I can't quite understand why the manner of doing business with each other has to have such a high and hostile profile.

It's true to Yankee history to discard players they have no use for, but in my opinion Steinb. has taken that approach to bromdignagian proportions, alienating not only the players involved (and other potential players), but the fanbase as well. How would the situation be different if the Yanks took a positive team-building approach? Is that even possible anymore? I don't recall having this issue when Watson or Stick were operating in the 90's, but then both operated without Steinb. looming over their shoulders (well, Watson left when GS started reasserting himself.) I still think Steinbrenner is the problem here overall. Unless Hank or Hal pull a Henry the 4th (which given their names, it is quite likely), we're in for either more of the same or a lot less in the near future. Changing managers won't change that, either... the pressure and the problems come from the very top.

2007-10-12 10:24:58
67.   sunny615
Will Joe Torre be managing the 2008 Yankees?

Yes. One year $3 mil contract.

2007-10-12 10:28:04
68.   markp
Shaun
There's a lot more to life than watching baseball on TV. If I don't find watching a Ferrari being driven by an incompetent compelling viewing, it doesn't mean I need your pity (condescension?)
2007-10-12 10:31:07
69.   SF Yanks
67 Damn you! For a second I thought that was real and not just your prediction. Got my hopes up. :)
2007-10-12 10:33:27
70.   sunny615
Sorry... I should have put the discalimer: My Predicition:
Yes. One year, $3 mil
2007-10-12 10:38:20
71.   Drew F
Everybody seems to think that keeping Joe around is the only way to keep Posada, Mariano, and Pettitte (and Arod?). Does this really seem likely? Are they really more Joe's guys than Yankees?

I have to think that the public comments (mostly Mo's) are a combination of negotiating stance and an emotional response. I have no doubt that they like him and want to keep playing for him, but they have to know that MLB is a business, right?

2007-10-12 10:41:41
72.   SF Yanks
70 Ehh, it's alright. I just want this damn thing to be over with, so I can go on to worrying about other guys: Mo, Po, etc. Come to think of it. Will this cycle of debating players' status ever end? Doubt it. Guess I'm in for one hell of a ride.

Re: Boras on ARod. 12 year deal at $30 million a year, For a total of $360 million. A bit excessive? Yeah, I think so. How about a 7 yr deal @30 per for a total of 210?

2007-10-12 10:43:29
73.   Count Zero
60 I was referring to the playoff roster not the expanded September call-up roster...I would think that would be obvious. :-P

We'll see about Stinky, Vizcaino and Villone. I stand by my bet that at least two out of those three will still be with us. Because JT will want them.

But that's the fringe element anyway. More importantly, we will still have Giambi, Damon and Matsui. I could live with Damon in LF, but see no reason to keep the other two except that they can't be traded. We will also have a useless, one year older Moose, and we will sign Posada to a ridiculous extension that will ensure we will have yet another overpaid, past his prime DH on our roster in 2010, or maybe even 2009.

Mark my words, when Torre gets a two-year contract in the next two weeks, it will trigger a chain of events that results in this roster being full of aging, overpaid vets. What's at stake here isn't the 2-3 Ws/Ls that Torre's in game management means -- it's an entire philosophy of how to construct a team. "My guys play no matter what the numbers say," vs. "These guys play because they're the best."

2007-10-12 10:44:11
74.   SF Yanks
71 "Everybody seems to think that keeping Joe around is the only way to keep Posada, Mariano, and Pettitte (and Arod?)"

I would think its a risk not worth taking. Maybe they leave, maybe they don't. Why take the chance? If anything, sign Joe to a one-year deal, sign the players to multiple years, then can Joe next year.

2007-10-12 10:47:31
75.   Chyll Will
74 If the team wins it all next year (even by accident), do you still can Joe?
2007-10-12 10:49:55
76.   JoeInRI
The grass is ALWAYS greener. But you may not get the same buzz . . .
2007-10-12 10:51:24
77.   JL25and3
73 They've got Damon, Giambi, Matsui and Mussina whether they re-sign Torre or not. What does he have to do with it?
2007-10-12 10:52:18
78.   JL25and3
And as for Posada, I don't disagree - except that they left themselves without a choice.
2007-10-12 10:53:24
79.   RIYank
73 Yeah, I was wondering that 77 myself. Which aging veterans are we talking about -- and how would Torre be involved in deciding which players are on the team, anyway?

(This is the closest my comments have been to JoeInRI's in quite a while. It's a good time to mention that we are distinct entities.)

2007-10-12 10:55:35
80.   RIYank
On Posada:
I think he has to be signed. Sure, we probably get him for too long and have to swallow a big salary for a DH or bench player after a few years. But the cost in productivity of losing him is immense. It might be larger than the cost of losing A-Rod (because a Posada replacement is likely to be a really lousy hitter).
2007-10-12 10:59:16
81.   Rob Middletown CT
It seems to me that the longer this drags out the more likely he will be retained.

Joe is not a bad manager. Joe is not a particularly good manager either. That is to say he's not good at making lemonade out of lemons, but he generally won't screw up a good thing either. He managed a badly flawed 2001 team to the 7th game of the WS and had Mariano on the mound to close it. He did screw up in the extra innings game of the 2003 WS, but the man seems to have learned something from that. In Game 2 this year, tie game on the road, Mariano threw 2 innings, did he not?

He doesn't do it (much - he HAS done it) during the regular season, but when it's for all the marbles he's willing to buck that particularly irritating convention.

Overuse of crappy bench players (but now, of course, he has a reasonably good bench, hmm...) and riding one particular reliever into the ground remain his faults. At times he will drive me nuts with this stuff. Then again, I'm an obsessed fan who watches every game.

2007-10-12 11:00:18
82.   Max
68 My condescension is reserved for people who choose to view things in the most one-dimensional way possible -- like summarizing the 2007 season as a "Ferrari driven by an incompetent".

Go enjoy your other activities...the Banter and other places need valid, nuanced criticism of whatever the manager (and all the other parties involved, like the GM and organization) decide to do, not another retelling of the fairy tale where the big bad incompetent manager applies the screws to the team day by day, leaving many worthy, neglected stepchildren languishing in the minors and on the bench -- the last 12 years, the evil villain was "Joe Fuckface"...next year, who will the bad guy be?

2007-10-12 11:04:31
83.   SF Yanks
Heck no! He better get a 3 year deal if that happens. Hell, I don't can him even if they don't make the playoffs, but I guess there's a reason I don't run the Yanks.
2007-10-12 11:04:35
84.   Yankee Fan In Boston
80 we'll be free of the shackles that giambi, moose, farnsworth, and that season opener SP guy, too after '08. not only is that a boatload of money, it would allow the team to potentially get younger as posada ages like a fine wine.
2007-10-12 11:04:35
85.   Max
73 The gaping flaw in the scenario you present is that it assumes the GM and organization play no part -- that once we hire the beloved neanderthal back, all the other neanderthals follow suit to drag the team down. Do you really believe Cashman is going to just do whatever Torre wants (even assuming Torre wants all his vets back and could care less about a bunch of young guys --- a very flawed assumption).
2007-10-12 11:04:40
86.   51cq24
let's assume our rotation next year is wang, pettitte, hughes, joba, kennedy. if the last 3 are on strict innings limitations, is it realistic to think we'll be making the playoffs? and if it isn't, is it worth bringing back joe just so that we can be sure to get mariano, posada and pettitte back? i will be very upset if any of those 3 are not here, especially mo. but if you look at mo's statements about joe, it actually seems like he is expecting to be here no matter what, otherwise why is he talking about wanting joe "back"? i don't know about posada, he has been saying he's looking forward to being a free agent for a while, but i really doubt that he's not going to come back just because joe is gone (especially if the new manager is his old mentor girardi).

anyway, i think we have to decide whether next year is a transition year or not before figuring anything else out. i hope we can be competitive even with 3 rookie starters, and i think we can be. but the innings limitations is gonna be tough.

2007-10-12 11:07:10
87.   SF Yanks
83 was meant for 75
2007-10-12 11:11:57
88.   Shaun P
80 Exactly. There is no one else in the system to take his place, and there is no one on the free agent market who could come close to even a 'bad' Posada season.

68 No condensation or pity from me, mark. Just not how I would choose to act. JL said it better in 64 - though I would have said Stump and Dallas Green myself.

73 JT may want them, but JT isn't going to get them, and I think that is going to be made very clear to him when they offer him a new contract. (Presuming Mo, Po, A-Rod, Abreu, and Pettitte all return) The Yanks need to find at least two 40-man spots as of right now, or they'll risk losing some potentially valuable minor leaguers via the Rule 5 draft. And that's before they consider bringing in anyone else.

2007-10-12 11:15:57
89.   Shaun P
86 Here are the Yanks' leaders in IP for this past season:

215 - Pettitte
199 - Wang
152 - Moose
99 - Clemens
75 - Viz
73 - Hughes
71 - Mo
67 - Igawa
60 - Kyle
50 - Bruney

So yeah, I'd say even with IPK restricted to 175 innings, and Hughes and Joba around 140, yeah, the Yanks can compete and win. No problem.

2007-10-12 11:17:11
90.   RIYank
86 Sure, I think we're a favorite for the post-season with that rotation on short innings.
Put it this way: the team ERA would, I believe, be lower than it was this year. We'd have maybe Moose and maybe some youngsters and possibly Igawa to take up the innings slack.

Of course, you've left open the bullpen question. But I'm assuming Cashman would address that problem aggressively.

2007-10-12 11:18:35
91.   Orly Yarly NoWai
72 If Boras asks the Yankees for 12/360, we should counter with 5/70. Both are equally ridiculous.
2007-10-12 11:22:18
92.   Bags
I think the FO is going to realize that they don't have the leverage to fire Joe.

1. They've lost the battle over perceptions in the mainstream media.

2. They are at risk of losing beloved players (Mo, Posada, possibly Andy, possibly A-Rod, who may not be beloved but is incredibly productive) if they don't bring him back.

3. They don't seem to have a "better" alternative to joe, or one that anyone is clamoring for.

Why do these factors matter? They are coming up on the season that will be the table setter for the first year at the new stadium. They can't afford to have a bad year.

They can't afford not to bring him back. He'll be back.

2007-10-12 11:26:41
93.   sunny615
There is also the possibility of a Verlander 06 Wall/Tired arm issue with IPK, Joba, and Hughes. If those three starters are all on inning restrictions, you're again talking about an overworked Bullpen. And if Torre is helming the ship, I can bet you it'll be a long summer once again. An odd option would be to switch to a 6 man rotation of Pettitte, Wang, Moose, Kennedy, Hughes, and Joba with Hughes and Joba on strict IP counts. That would be an interesting season.
2007-10-12 11:30:46
94.   RIYank
93 I was thinking of a sixth starter rather than a huge load on the pen. It's an interesting question whether a strict six-man rotation would work -- it's easy to imagine it bugging Mussina (insert own snide joke here). But there are all sorts of ways to do it, actually. You could have Pitcher X (maybe Moose) play in April and bring up IPK in May, sending Joba down for a while, and so on. You could have Moose make some spot starts, though that would use up a roster spot.
2007-10-12 11:36:38
95.   Shaun P
94 Yep. If Hughes is the 5th starter, he can be skipped frequently through June. And by keeping Joba in the minors on a strict IP/game limit, until June-ish, that will also help.

The Yanks can also get creative by keeping another starter in the pen as the 'long man'. Have the long man (Rasner, Karstens, even Igawa or DeSalvo) make the odd spot start here and there to stretch things out for the kids (and Moose and Pettitte, who could benefit from extra rest). You can rotate a bunch of the 'tier 2' guys through that roster spot, particularly against crappy teams' 5th starters.

2007-10-12 11:42:06
96.   51cq24
95 i really doubt joba is ever going back to the minors except for rehab starts that will hopefully be rare.

i think a long man starter is necessary. and i never understood why we didn't carry one this year and in other recent years. but i'm not sure if i trust any of those. i think rasner has looked the best, but he's no mendoza. i'd rather give clippard another shot. i thought he looked pretty good overall for a rookie. he looked great in some games, awful in some, but i'm more than willing to give him another shot.

2007-10-12 11:42:53
97.   51cq24
96 it makes more sense to just have joba in the pen for the beginning of the season.
2007-10-12 11:44:29
98.   sunny615
Good points, but I don't see Moose being amendable to being the "fill-in" guy so that the kids can stay fresh throughout the season. It would have to fall on the manager to be able to take starters out of close games with any of the kids pitching and replace them with a DeSalvo, Igawa or Moose. And if the Yanks end up losing that game or blowing out the pen to keep the lead, you can bet your adam's apple, there'll be a roasting in the media (and blogs) the next day.
2007-10-12 11:46:22
99.   YankeeInMichigan
The Tampa summit will be an exercise in damage control and PR spin. I'm pretty sure that Cashman had already made up his mind that it was time to make a change, and that he would have been able to convince the Tampa brass. Then Cash, Torre and the Steinbrenner clan would have held a press conference in which Torre would have said that it was time to spend more time with his family and pass the torch to someone else. But after George's published ultimatum, that will look like a firing, and they will risk mutiny of their top two hitters, their second best starter and their best reliever. On the other hand, if they re-sign Torre, it will appear as if George is giving into preassure. So now the spin-doctors have to think up a way to either keep Joe or replace him while presenting a unified management face. My guess: A one-year contract bundled with a "closing an era" marketing campaign. They may even pre-annoint Mattingly to open the stadium.
2007-10-12 11:48:44
100.   bob34957
Joe should be fired, or he should be retained. I believe both parties have it wrong. Joe should move upstairs in a unique advisor/power role. The talents that he possesses should be espoused and practiced by all members in the Yankee chain of command. I might believe his managerial effectiveness has deminished to a certain degree because of the previous playoff performance. However, the performance has changed because of the calibre of some players. I don't possess the intelligence to come to a logical solution. I do propose that he should be kept aboard to transition with young players and a new manager. Plus,Joe's input should be used to select his successor.
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-10-12 11:50:10
101.   51cq24
98 moose probably isn't amenable to a lot of things. but i think even he realizes that he has no leverage after this season, and it's up to the manager to show him his place.
2007-10-12 11:53:34
102.   JL25and3
88 It shouldn't be too tough to find spots on the 40-man roster. Villone certainly shouldn't be kept on; if by some chance they want him back, sign him in March, not now. T. J. Beam and Matt DeSalvo are both 27, so it doesn't seem like there's much future there. Andy Phillips is apparently the nicest guy in the world, but they certainly could release him.

I also couldn't cry if they released Bronson Sardinha; he's starting to look more and more like a Kevin. On the other hand, I just found out his full name: Bronson Kiheimahanaomauiakeo Sardinha. I might not want to give that up so easily.

2007-10-12 11:54:21
103.   sunny615
101 - whoever that is...
2007-10-12 11:57:07
104.   RIYank
I agree that Moose wouldn't like the fill-in role. And I guess that matters a lot, because no matter what the manager does or says, Mussina won't pitch well if he doesn't buy into what he's doing. So maybe that's out.
2007-10-12 12:00:03
105.   Andre
I live in Boston and all of my coworkers are Sux fans. Today at lunch, they were all complaining about Francona's poor game management and praising Torre's. I thought I was in the twilight zone. Funny how the grass is always greener. Examples given of Torre's prowess over Francona's (I'm quoting the Sux fans here):

1.Torre always makes sure to get as much time as possible to get his bullpen warmed up. He takes about 10 minutes to get out to the mount and another 10 to get back. He is always signaling Posada to talk to the pitcher (to delay and give more time). He does a great job of stretching it out. Conversely, Francona never seems to have anyone warming up when their pitcher is obviously in trouble.
2. Another example given is how Francona always uses past performance (how well someone did in the 1st 2 months of the season) to dictate how they'll be used for the rest of the season. If someone pitched well in the 'pen during month 1, that guarantees Francona will continue to go to them in September, regardless of how poorly they pitched in between.

Just funny to hear how the same complaints seem to come up for every team. They're complaining about Francona, despite him bringing the Sux to the 1st world series in 86 years, and being on the verge of going again this year.

2007-10-12 12:05:23
106.   JL25and3
88 Yeah, Green was more hateful and more destructive than Dent. I chose Bucky on the basis of sheer incompetence
2007-10-12 12:05:47
107.   Shaun P
102 The only reason I'd keep Sardinha is, outside of Melky/Matsui/Damon/Duncan/(Abreu?), he is the only other OF on the 40-man roster. If you cut him, you've almost got to have someone else take his place, and that defeats the purpose of cutting him. Unless there's someone at AA who's superior, and I don't know much about the AA OFs.

Andy isn't on the 40-man now (he's still on the 60-day DL), so cutting him also doesn't open a spot.

DeSalvo and Beam could be cut, I agree, but I'd rather see if the Yanks have something there, then waste a 40-man spot on the likes of Villone or Viz or Stinky, who are known quantities at this point.

2007-10-12 12:06:07
108.   51cq24
105 well i don't want francona either
2007-10-12 12:07:03
109.   Shaun P
106 In retrospect, Bucky was awful, but being a kid at the time, the "Wow - Bucky Dent - he hit the home run in 1978!" factor carried more weight with me than it would now. =)
2007-10-12 12:08:39
110.   51cq24
by the way, i'm over the bugs enough now that i can say, for tonight and this week, let's go indians.
2007-10-12 12:08:56
111.   JL25and3
105 I suspect (without having made any effort to check it out systematically) that virtually every manager in the majors is criticized for his bullpen management.

Maybe not Tony LaRussa, though he should be - just on the basis of making games so damn tedious.

2007-10-12 12:11:16
112.   JL25and3
107 Yes, you'd have to replace Sardinha, but not until the spring. Open the space now, and I'm sure that, in a few months, you can find someone no worse than he is. Kevins aren't that hard to find.
2007-10-12 12:11:55
113.   Yankee Fan In Boston
102 that might be the best middle name in baseball history.
2007-10-12 12:12:49
114.   Bob B
I think the Tampa crowd is pushed up against the wall especially since Posada and Rivera, the two biggest names they need to resign, have come out and made Joe's staying an issue for them staying. I think they might offer JT a One-Year contract. Don't forget how important next year is-last year at Yankee Stadium-hosting the All Star Game. I don't think George or his advisor's aren't seeing the overwhelming popular support for Torre and this way they put the pressure squarely on the Manager and the Team to win next season.
Than being said, George has done many dumber things in the last 30 years than not re-signing Joe Torre so I'd say it's still 50/50
2007-10-12 12:14:07
115.   Yankee Fan In Boston
110 i'm rooting for them, too. if you go out in the playoffs, you might as well lose to the eventual champs.

and how could you root against CC and fausto (so long as they aren't facing your team)?

(plus, a couple of guys on my baseball team are cleveland fans.)

2007-10-12 12:18:53
116.   RIYank
I'm rooting for Cleveland now, for the obvious reason, but also because it would be cool if the WS were: CLEVELAND ROX.

102 That is a truly awesome name. I guess he's Hawaiian.

2007-10-12 12:22:32
117.   Sarasota
I think the Yankees organization is a pretty smart outfit. They'd be absolutely stupid to let Torre go.
There aren't many people in baseball that could effectively do his job and also keep the players insulated from the insanity that is NY. Now if they would only get us a bonefide #1 starter then maybe we wouldn't be having this ridiculous game being played out. Let's move on already.
2007-10-12 12:29:43
118.   yankz
116 Chip Caray's deepest desire
2007-10-12 12:31:17
119.   nick
Moose is a smart guy--show him his numbers with an extra day of rest....

I go back and forth on Torre's media skillz. Are they helping the Yankees as a team, or are they just helping Torre retain his job? They do both; but at this stage, with the old unstable George mostly silent (and how revealing that his speech apparently had only the most tenuous relation to Yankee reality)--at this stage, I think the media skills are actually getting in the way of what needs to be done for the team....

2007-10-12 12:31:58
120.   OldYanksFan
66 First off, let's leave poor Bromdignag out of this. Why would the players be alienated is this were simply team ploicy? And why would fans be alieniated at all? Who wants to fall into a Mo Vaughn situation? In 1990, salaries were what? These players are overpaid. Drew turned away $51m to test the waters. There is very little loyalty from either side.

Mind you, I hate this shit. I hate players who are already multi millionaires jumping teams so fast. But everyone keeps reminding me that this is a BUSINESS (as opposed to our National Pasttime).

Just look at Boras. ARod has already made $200m and is up for at least another $250m, but Boris is dancing around with numbers that include a BILLION. I think it's sick. Baseball is the only monopoly is this country. They have a special exemption. The rules do not have to be as they are. The players union is far, far too powerful. Fox and TV dictate playing schedules, and fanned continue to get squeezed.

Jeez... I don't know where that came from. It's hard to be rational when there are no Yankee games going on!

2007-10-12 12:32:45
121.   nick
Betemit is the most useful of our bench guys--he can hit a pinch HR and play competent infield defense at multiple positions--but I don't want to see him starting anywhere....
2007-10-12 12:36:24
122.   OldYanksFan
73 Now Torre gets blamed for roster construction? Why not blame ARod too. Hell, if it weren't for JT and ARod, we would be the Florida Marlins with short hair.
2007-10-12 12:38:58
123.   mehmattski
116 I'd like to see that matchup too, for the added reason, brought up in 114 , that the ASG is in Yankee Stadium next year. And it would suck if Francona were managing the AL squad in Yankee Stadium.
2007-10-12 12:42:04
124.   Raf
120 Fans may be getting squeezed, but they're coming out in record numbers, IIRC
2007-10-12 12:47:37
125.   Alex Belth
100, I don't see Torre moving upstairs. The truth of it is, there are a lot of people in the executive ranks who simply do not like Torre, or are simply envious of his power. Lots of nasty politics...
2007-10-12 12:48:01
126.   Shaun P
102 Come to think of it, doesn't Bronson have a brother (older maybe?) who also plays minor league ball? Wonder what his full name is.

112 True, but why open the spot now only to have to fill it later? I suppose if you could trade one of the 'tier 2' guys that might otherwise be cut for a useful part, it makes sense.

2007-10-12 12:57:59
127.   OldYanksFan
98 This is Moose's last year. While as a FA after 2008 he MAY be wanted by another team, I think he will know his best chance for a WS in 2008 with the best Yankee team possible. He might piss and moan, but he will happily do what is needed.

I start Moose in the Spring with Joba in the Pen. Hughes and IPK rotate being the skipped 5th man. We have a spot start by a kid every 3rd round of the rotation.

The Yankees have tons of young pitchers on the fringe. I can't imagine they can't make up the extra 100+ innings that the Hughes/Joba/IPK rules inflict.

Really, this one ain't hard, especially as we are aware of it now. Cashman has all winter to figure it out.

I think Sanchez is available 2nd half of 2008. Am I wrong?

I think the Yankees have fewer holes and way fewer pitching issues going into this winter then in a long time. The team we have right now (minus Roger) played at a .680 rate. That's 110 wins over a season.

This will be an easy winter.
And a great spring. How many days 'till Pitchers and Catchers?

2007-10-12 13:01:30
128.   Yankee Fan In Boston
127 i'm afraid that if joba starts out in the 'pen next year, he'll never be a starter.

there are roughly 135 days until pitchers and catchers report, but who's counting?

2007-10-12 13:01:39
129.   Andre
125 I don't see Torre moving upstairs because I don't think he'd be interested. I think for him it's on the field till he can't do it anymore or until they fire him. I doubt he'd go to another team (except maybe the Mets)
2007-10-12 13:04:51
130.   OldYanksFan
100 Very Good. Joe has a great deal to offer us. He could even help as a managers 'sounding board' and still be Papa to the troups. When Dad gets to old, you don't throw him out, you just make himk GrandPa!

And Torre would be KILLER as a guest commentator for YES. He's the next Rizzuto. He can kiss Singleton, touch Kayes face and cry every time the Yankees clinch.

No matter what happens, Joe IS an important member of the Yankee family. We have always values our past players. Torre is loved in NY. He's going straight to the HOF. Something HAS to be worked out.

2007-10-12 13:06:31
131.   OldYanksFan
His nickname is 'Heimahanaomauy'.
Good find!
2007-10-12 13:20:41
132.   unpopster
If the Yanks do go in a new direction and bring in a new manager, I say the FO should go head on and try to hire Leo Mazzone. He was fired today by the O's after only two years on the job.

Wow, wouldn't it be great to have guys like Joba, Hughes, IPK, Sanchez, Dorf, etc. under his tutelage?

2007-10-12 13:39:44
133.   Cleveland Steamer
I think I'm gonna throw-up!!

If Torre comes back, THAT'S IT !! I won't come back!!

I'm sick and tired of his lameo moves (not starting Andy in game one, letting wang have 9 days rest, then bringing wang back on 3 days rest, refusing to bunt when his bats are cold, etc., etc.,)

I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE

2007-10-12 13:44:20
134.   OldYanksFan
Great News!
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3060643
Let's move fast.
2007-10-12 13:52:24
135.   pistolpete
134 The O's are absolutely nuts.
2007-10-12 14:01:21
136.   Matt B
116 I suppose that means Ian Hunter must be rooting for Cleveland-Colorado, too.
2007-10-12 14:05:53
137.   Shaun P
134 135 Except that a lot of the shine has come off Mazzone's star since he left Atlanta, and (I shudder to even think this), maybe the O's know more than we do here.

PS - unpopster had the news first in 132 .

2007-10-12 14:22:47
138.   SF Yanks
133 See ya.
2007-10-12 14:42:16
139.   Sarasota
138 ditto
2007-10-12 14:56:03
140.   unpopster
137 I don't know, I think between Cabrera, Bedard, and Loewen, their starters showed a whole lot of promise this year. In fact, Bedard took a huuuge next step this year.
2007-10-12 15:57:42
141.   yankz
140 Oh god, not Cy Loewen.
2007-10-12 16:07:22
142.   Orly Yarly NoWai
96 97 I think the reason to put Joba in the minors for the first bit of the season is to get him stretched out so he's a more effective starter. It's certainly not merit-based.

140 I certainly wouldn't mind seeing Hughes put up Bedard-like numbers next year.

2007-10-12 16:20:27
143.   RIYank
For some reason I'd forgotten how much I like Travis Hafner.
2007-10-12 16:21:27
144.   RIYank
Hey, 138 and 139 , come on, be nice.

PLEASE, Cleveland Steamer, don't leave!

2007-10-12 16:43:39
145.   markp
I see a few posters have decided it's all right to be dicks to other posters for saying what they feel. Not surprising.
2007-10-12 16:46:37
146.   joejoejoe
I think Torre is gone.

If Posada, Mo, A-Rod, and Pettitte won't come back because Torre doesn't get renewed - so be it. That's $70 million per season to renew and extend the kids and get replacements.

If Torre comes back he better lead wire-to-wire because he's used up his 9 lives and then some with the front office. Maybe they are offering him $3 million dollars because they are half expecting to fire Torre on June 1st if he's not in 1st place.

2007-10-12 17:03:05
147.   RIYank
145 I see some markp has decided to call other people "dicks" for saying what they feel.
2007-10-12 17:51:33
148.   Zack
Well, looks like the Boston bats have been able to do what the Yanks' never could.
2007-10-12 17:56:10
149.   Zack
Holy crap, apparently Sabathia just can't throw strikes in the post season. or else its, as Peter Gammons actually said, simply that the Red Sox NEVER swing at pitches out of the zone...
2007-10-12 18:47:18
150.   markp
Having people tell me (and others) they feel sorry for me because I don't want to watch the or a sarcastic "seeya" to somebody venting about not wanting to see any more of Joe's Cluelessness is being a dick. You can disagree without being condescending or sarcastic.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-10-12 19:03:57
151.   OldYanksFan
From the Bronx Block:
"Also, among baseball fans, the overwhelming opinion is that Joe Torre should return to the Yankees. Rasmussen Reports, although it is primarily a political polling company, recently conducted a baseball poll that included a question about Joe Torre. The results are pretty overwhelming; only 19% of those polled believe that Joe Torre should be fired. It should be noted that the poll has a margin of error of +/- 4%."

Well... I guess that makes about 80% of us dicks.

2007-10-12 19:15:11
152.   OldYanksFan
According to Gammo:
"They are the Yankees, so two hours after their season turned to winter, there was a cellphone conversation about what could be packaged with Chien-Ming Wang to get Johan Santana, not Carlos Silva or any of the other mongrel free agents. They inquired about Santana, because they are the Yankees. "
2007-10-12 19:23:11
153.   tommyl
152 Is that even true?

And if it is, so what? How dare the Yankees inquire about the best pitcher in baseball in a year he will almost certainly be available. I'd hate to lose Wang though, I love that kid.

2007-10-12 19:29:06
154.   Shaun P
150 I believe RIYank (if I may speak for him) was suggesting that you follow your own advice, and not be negative toward someone for saying what they feel. IMHO, you can disagree with someone without calling them a "dick". But what do I know?

152 Yawn. Like front office personnel don't have those kinds of conversations all the time. Sorry, Mr. Gammons, this isn't the 70s anymore. We have a much better idea of what goes on in front offices now than we ever did before.

2007-10-12 19:36:57
155.   OldYanksFan
I don't know if the newspapers really know anything, but the more I read, the worse it looks for Torre. While he has strong fan and player support, he seems to have no support (if Newsday is correct) with any on the prime decision makers.

The only one who might pull for Torre is Cashman, but Newsday says he likes Girardi.
So this delay might no be about WHETHER to keep Joe, but rather how to deal with the reprocussions of dumping him.

2007-10-12 19:46:18
156.   Chyll Will
120 You know this whole situation is screwed up when I come off as the rational one >;) By the way, I purposely avoided the word 'loyalty' because I knew that was not in the equation here, but for God's sake, someone has to have the courage to set the standard...

Charles Schulz, master cartoonist as he was, was confronted by his animation partners when he scripted the scene in "A Charlie Brown Christmas" where Linus gives the biblical speech about what Christmas is all about. Lee Mendelson, his producer, recounting how scared they were of the possible backlash from the network, advertisers and the general public, said:

"... and Sparky looked at me, with those strange, blue eyes of his and said, 'Lee... if we don't do it, who will?'"

We saw how that went down. It could apply here as well. A revolution in assertively positive values in big business is not impossible if you have the guts to stand for them.

2007-10-12 20:09:38
157.   Sarasota
152 finally a plan. We never had a #1 starter all year. Was/is Wang a true #2??
This team may have been built to entertain with loads of runs.....but it never got the starting pitching it needed. Those Red Sox w/ Beckett looked awful good tonight. Damn it.
2007-10-12 20:11:05
158.   OldYanksFan
Is this just more newspaper bullshit?
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=sports&id=5704479
2007-10-12 20:56:13
159.   Mike T
In other news, the game in Boston tonight was not competitive. Hopefully that changes for the rest of the series.
2007-10-12 20:58:35
160.   Chyll Will
158 No, that's TV bullshyt, but it's the green "too much sugar" bullshyt. Stay tuned, indeed... feh, don't ruin your weekend worrying about it. It's out of our hands one way or the other. At least the players have spoken.
2007-10-12 21:33:21
161.   JL25and3
142 He couldn't really throw strikes against the Yankees, either. It's just that the Red Sox took advantage of it.
2007-10-13 06:38:33
162.   yankz
Rejoice: Joba will start.

"Speaking with a reporter from The Associated Press, owner George Steinbrenner's son, Hank, confirmed the news on Chamberlain -- who allowed just one earned run during 24 innings in the regular season as a setup man for Mariano Rivera.

This decision is independent of Rivera's status as a potential free agent. "

http://tinyurl.com/24qcar

2007-10-13 07:30:42
163.   OldYanksFan
I do believe that most here understand that Joba's greatest value is as a starter. However, if the following scenario is true:
1) Joba is on a limited annual pitch count
2) Our 2008 SP is much stronger then our RP

Then I would like to see Joba TEMPORARILY in the BP to:
work the appropriate amount of innings
help out in the BP where we need help.

I don't know IF it can be done safely, but maybe Joba in the BP before the ASB, and starts (forever) after that. And if he is in the BP, I would like to see fewer appearances, but ones for 2 and 3 innings.... maybe more if a long man is called for.I think this is more in sync with preparing him to start.

I can't believe it, but Clemens won't say he's done. IF he wants to pitch (again, a short year), I can't imagine it would be for anyone but us. Considering we have 3 kids on limited pitch counts, Clemen's limitations MIGHT fit well with our situation. For $10m or less for his limited duty, could he be helpful? Certainly his influence is helpful and it's only a 'one year' contract.

I have read a number of blogs, including this one, where 'rebuilding lineups' were proposed, re: lineups without some combination, or all of, Mo, Po, Pettitte, and ARod.

The good news is our Team salary was beautifully low, and we had ridden ourselves of some aging players. The bad news is: THE LINEUPS WERE HORRIBLE! Short of having Koufax, Pedro and Santana, they were unwinable lineups. We would HAVE to go out and BUY some umpact players to fill holes (and what's the point of letting impact players go, only to buy other unknown ones).
Shelly at 1st, Betemin at 3rd and Pellitier catching for any entire season? My God!

The majority of our current lineup is gone in 2-3 years, even with signing our 'vets'. I think the issue is more who we trade for and who we promote over those 3 years. Anyone who wants to blow up this team...
I want to hear what you say when we battle Toronto for 3rd place for the next 2 or 3 years.

2007-10-13 08:01:20
164.   bgfenwick
This Mitchell report seems poised to reveal some huge names in the "steroid" ring. If A-Rod has anything to do with this, you have to wonder if he'll scratch whatever he can from the Yankees as quickly as possible. Certainly if his name is involved, hie perceived value will drop and I'm not sure he'd be offered part ownership of a team.
2007-10-13 08:24:00
165.   Zack
163 I don't think its a good idea to start Joba in the pen/move him around. 1) it will give more fuel to the fire of closers somehow being the most important pitcher and Joba needing to remain there 2) Its actually more of a strain on the arm to pitch more often out of the pen for less innings. I imagine what will happen is that whoever starts between Moose/Kennedy will fill the #3 roll early on since both can log more innings, and Hughes/Chamberlain might trade off skipping starts...
2007-10-13 08:32:27
166.   Zack
Watching the Rockies doing what the Cardinals, Marlins, Red Sox etc have done before them really reconfirms to me how much the short division series impacts the playoffs. The story of the last how many playoffs has really been "who is the hottest team" going into the playoffs. Its not about who is a better team by any means. If a team can catch some steam just before they can easily win the division series and go from there.

I mean, I know its the national league and none of the teams are that great, but I live in a NL town and there is no way that the Rockies are/have been the best team in the NL. Their run has been amazing, but, like those teams before them, its mostly just fortuitous timing. The Padres were on fire for most of Sept, then fizzled a bit too early...

2007-10-13 09:08:21
167.   nemecizer
I think Joe Torre will be back with a pay cut so the Boss can save some face.

Approximately 125 days until pitchers and catchers report!

2007-10-13 09:56:08
168.   OldYanksFan
166 It is obvious that a 162 game season tells more about a team then does any one series. The FIVE game series in an abomination, and needs to be eliminated.
Also, it would be pretty cool if in a 5 game series, it was mandated to start 5 different pitchers. This would at least approximate the 162 season.

165 If Brian decides Joba is a starter but uses him this year only in the PB for seasoning, he will still be a starter. I don't see some BP time as 'threatening' his role, if Brian makes this decision.
(2) You must has misread what I said. I advocated less frequent, 2-3 inning appearances. Actually, if I was in charge, I would have him pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th or 8th and 9th, when we have a lead every 3 or 4 days. It he knows he is going 3, he would (and the FO would stress to) pace himself so he was still strong in the 9th. I think the goal would be 50 or so innings in this capacity, and then 100 or so in the 2nd half as a starter.

Pitchers that only go 6 put a lot of stress on the BP which is already weak. However if Joba is in the BP looking for 3 inning stints (in the 1st half) it means 6 inning stints by Hughes aren't that bad.

However, anyway we do it, we need a 6th SP, whether it's Moose of Roger. Basically Hughes, Joba and IPK = 2 long outing starters.

A BP without Joba can't handle 5-6 inning stinks from both Highes and Joba.

I think this makes sense.
GOD! I miss baseball (and I don't mean that NL/Sox crap that is still going on)

2007-10-13 10:19:38
169.   Zack
168 Gotcha. I still wouldn't trust them to not keep Joba in the pen forever, nor would I trust them to stick to such a plan of rest, but it wouldn't be the worst thing. I would just rather see hims tart and stay there and be done with it to avoid any issues, you know?

Reading all of this stuff about the Mitchell investigation with big names to reveal, I wonder how its going to go down. That is to say, they are clearly trying to push it until after the playoffs, but if any of the players involved are PLAYING right now, I think it would be a travesty to wait until after the WS and let those players potentially win the WS, and THEN come out with the news. If they have dirt on players, they owe it to the fans to reveal it now. Granted, it would be bad for baseball, but either way its bad...

Can you imagine if the Sox win the WS and it comes out that Ortiz is on the list, or the Rockies and Helton?

2007-10-13 10:38:28
170.   ms october
168 and 169 I am still not sure how they are going to do it, but I would like them to find a way to get Joba in the rotation as early as possible.
Agrred - bb is not the same for me with no Yanks playing. To make it worse, I have to pick something up from one of my profs later today who snarkily said she will be free this evening - just watching the Sux (ugh!!)
As to the Mitchell report - it sounds like they are backing off the claim of having big names and names we haven't heard. But I really don't know what to make of the whole thing. I really hope none of the Yanks we like is in the report but it is naive to think that is impossible. Though I wouldn't mind if an overpriced fragile bullpen arm is on the list. Interesting point about the WS - how is MLB and Bud going to handle any of the fallout from this report if it knowlingly allowed someone in their official report to continue to play? But, that leads to me to this - where are they getting these names from - what is the source - tests, dealers, other players?
2007-10-13 11:12:13
171.   yankz
The article says Joba will start the year as a starter.
2007-10-13 11:22:51
172.   OldYanksFan
170 Ms October is such an enchanting handle. Got any pictures? (only kidding!)... (well.... not 100%)

Is the Mitchell report going public before the WS is over?

In a way, if there are some big names, it will take some of the stigma off Barry. Some AL team will get Barry to DH for $10m, and I think he comes up big. The Angels? Everyone hates his 'stink', but I think he will put some team over the top.

At some time, maybe we will talk about the amazing transition the Yankees have had in just 2 years. 2008 might be like 1995 all over again.

We have some cold hearts here. To think Joe will miss the last year of Yankee Stadium and the ASG to boot, is very sad. No matter how you feel about him, it just seems wrong to me.

To see him touch big bad Roger on the cheek...
To see him cry when he talks about how proud he is of 'his boys'...
I'm really gonna miss that.

2007-10-13 11:24:06
173.   RZG
169 They're going to "name names"? Based on what, someone's coming up with names to lessen a federal charge for themselves?

I hope they at least have some decent proof rather than hearsay. Mitchell might have been a good diplomat/elected official but these Selig Blue Ribbon commissions have only been pre-ordained findings in the owners' favor. Assigning a director of one of the teams to head the investigation seems to be a conflict of interest to me.

2007-10-13 11:36:54
174.   OldYanksFan
173 I believe they have names from Internet Pharmacys. I don't know if they have proof that people DID drugs, but I believe they have proof that people RECEIVED drugs.

And, ya know, getting steroids and HGH delivered to you for 6 months does look pretty bad.

2007-10-13 11:37:47
175.   yankz
Fortunately, Arod's stats don't follow a Bonds-like pattern with a massive spike. I mean, he had maybe his best season this year, when he was probably tested. I'm not worried, and I'm not going to speculate. If any Yankees get named, it's not like they were the only ones doing it.
2007-10-13 12:44:55
176.   be2ween
For the love of Christ, let the Yanks keep Torre (or hire Mattingly). Girardi or LaRussa managing the Yanks would be a nightmare to the rest of the MLB.
2007-10-13 12:48:03
177.   Vandelay Industries
Just one thing: Will people please stop raising the possibility of Arod getting part ownership of the Cubs, or any other team! It is prohibited under MLB rules and the Collective Bargaining Agreement. Aint happening, cannot happen, won't happen, and it only serves to reinforce the tiny amout of respect I have for baseball writers, as they keep raising it in print and on TV, when they should know what the rules are.
2007-10-13 12:59:21
178.   51cq24
169 would you say that if the yankees were still in it? they can't just stop the playoffs.
2007-10-13 13:13:16
179.   Chyll Will
177 Is that reinforcing the tininess or reinforcing the respect? (These things are not important to people like me, but it's fun to point out sometimes >;)

Hmm, if you have a Queen Mary 2 boatload of money and receipts for various illegal drugs delivered to your address, how difficult would it be to convince a judge or jury that you bought them just for the hell of it? That would mean pleading that you're a financially-incompetent sociopathic dweeb, but if that's better than saying you're a drug cheat, you'd go for it?

2007-10-13 13:13:59
180.   Zack
178 got nothing to do with stopping the playoffs, merely not waiting until they are over if players involved are implicated. I would want the same if there are Yanks named (especially if it were Farns!)

I just think MLB owes it to the fans not to jerk them around, but b/c its mlb, they could care less

2007-10-13 13:21:46
181.   Vandelay Industries
180 Agreed.
2007-10-13 13:32:38
182.   Vandelay Industries
179 They are baseball writers. How could it be anything other than tininess?
2007-10-13 13:52:55
183.   Chyll Will
182 It could be miniscule or lilliputian... especially if they cop a plea 179 ...
2007-10-13 14:01:36
184.   Vandelay Industries
183 Not microscopic?
2007-10-13 14:17:56
185.   JL25and3
183 Brobdingnagian and Lilliputian - in the same thread??? Are you going all English Lit on us again?
2007-10-13 14:19:09
186.   Chyll Will
184 Lupican... in the twelfth sense, of course.
2007-10-13 14:29:42
187.   Chyll Will
185 Playoff depravation ~~> read a book >;)
2007-10-13 15:27:11
188.   OldYanksFan
Wow... very few posts today.
Even fewer in English.
I guess everyone is done crying?
Common guys... DID WE REALLY HAVE TO TRADE R.J. for VIZ?
2007-10-13 15:37:42
189.   OldYanksFan
Juan Miranda 2007 numbers
http://firstinning.com/players/Juan-Miranda-a/
2007-10-13 15:49:12
190.   OldYanksFan
Newsday:
"Teams were told that the number of players who will be named will be "more than a handful. The report is expected sometime between the end of the World Series and the end of the calendar year.

There is concern around baseball what standard of proof Mitchell will use before including a player's name. It seems that will be left up to Mitchell, and teams probably will not get a look at the report before it is released publicly."

2007-10-13 15:56:52
191.   yankz
190 It pisses me off to no ends that he's a "Director in the front office" for the Sox. How the fuck was that a fair decision?
2007-10-13 16:43:46
192.   OldYanksFan
187 Which book?-?
Gone With the Wind?
Gone With the Gnats?
2007-10-13 17:24:49
193.   weeping for brunnhilde
I can't believe there's no more baseball.

It's just starting to sink in that this is more than just a few consecutive off-days and rain-outs.

How depressing.

2007-10-13 17:52:00
194.   underdog
192 Gone With the Gnats? Isn't that better known as The Brian Sabean Story?

Well, if you're really bored, you could always read the surreal fan fiction thread now playing on Dodger Thoughts...

Go BoSoxianrockybacks!

2007-10-13 18:09:07
195.   Vandelay Industries
Why is that I find Curt Schiling more likeable these days?
2007-10-13 18:09:33
196.   51cq24
180 i don't know, what do you want them to do? name the names just so people know who is on steroids in the world series? or actually suspend those players so that the world series is "clean"? i don't know one way or another what they should do. the thing is, if they're going to release names, why do we have to hear that they're going to release names and then wait? they should just release them or not.

let's do a guessing game of what yankees are on the list. here are my guesses:
giambi, obviously
clemens
pettitte
vizcaino
abreu
damon

2007-10-13 18:11:04
197.   yankz
195 Kevin Youkillis has replaced him as the "Dumbass who can't keep his mouth shut"?
2007-10-13 18:13:05
198.   Vandelay Industries
191 I think MItchell can be trusted. Either way, the announcement is only going to serve to illustrate what most medical professionals already know: that steroids and HGH help the human body heal faster, but they add almost nothing to performance in the game of baseball. This is why it's so sad that great players get busted, because they would have had almost identical numbers without the PED's.
2007-10-13 18:15:23
199.   yankz
198 But WHY would you pick someone affiliated with a team? Even if he is the most qualified, he's going to be SOMEWHAT biased, even if it's really really miniscule.
2007-10-13 18:16:04
200.   Vandelay Industries
196 I think you are far more likely to find names like Sardihnia and Proctor on the list, rather than any "star."
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-10-13 18:18:57
201.   Vandelay Industries
199 I think Selig weighed that and determined it was a wash. Having someone as respected as Mitchell heading the investigation will, in the long run, add to its legitimacy. Wheras the NFL is far more likely to choose someone who will sweep sweep sweep it under the rug because in football, PED's do help performance and are integral to maintaining its place at the front of the line among North American sports.
2007-10-13 18:24:35
202.   Vandelay Industries
Here comes Boston. Doing everything the Yankees couldn't against the Indians.
2007-10-13 18:26:13
203.   51cq24
198 what medical professionals? i've seen this argument for hgh because hgh really only makes you bigger all around, doesn't target your muscles. but steroids do target your muscles. how does that not help you in baseball? because you still have to hit the ball, still have to throw strikes? that's a simplification of the game. if you have more muscle mass, it's can swing faster. you can then wait on the ball longer.
furthermore, even if all they do were help your body heal faster, how does that add "almost nothing" to your performance in a sport that you have to play every day for half a year?
2007-10-13 18:27:07
204.   51cq24
203 YOU, not it's.
and you can throw harder, making it easier to get by even if your control is bad.
2007-10-13 18:33:11
205.   yankz
See, sometimes I think "Maybe the Yankees are just chokers in the postseason." But then how do you explain scoring 8 runs in game 3, right in the middle of a couple of crappy games? It's not like they forgot how to hit in the playoffs, then remembered, then forgot again.
2007-10-13 18:33:51
206.   Vandelay Industries
203 I agree. It does help you heal and play more games over a season. I never denied that. However, the effect on pitch speed is negigible at best. Just look at who has been busted. Seventy percent have been pitchers, almost every single one was and is below average to average. Of the remaining position players that have been busted, almost every one of them was also below average to average. Could you hit 54 HR instead of say 50? Maybe. But you aren't going to lower your ERA by anything measureable, and you sure as hell aren't going to go from 50 HR to 73. It just isn't possible. Strength has never been a big asset in baseball, which is why many coaches still prohibit players from bulking up. Can you hit it a tad further, sure. But it doesn't make you swing any faster.
2007-10-13 18:36:08
207.   Vandelay Industries
WOW! Manny Manny Manny. How I love to hate you, but must admit I'd rather have to at bat for my team with the gamne on the line over anyone on the Yankee roster. Manny and Ortiz are making Arod and Abreu look like minor leaguers in the PS.
2007-10-13 18:36:29
208.   51cq24
205 it's just that stuff happens. if we'd won game 2, maybe we'd be playing now. it's not like we won every game 10-0 in the late 90s. there were a lot of times when we were worried that the offense was choking, or certain pitchers were off. but we had such a balanced team (notably much better pitching, especially in the bullpen), that we could get by consistently.
2007-10-13 18:40:05
209.   Vandelay Industries
205 Dude. I have no clue, because the Sox don't seem to be having much trouble with the always overrated Sabathia and the young phenom that is Carmona. There isn't any way around it, there was more to the Yankees losses than "a short series" or any other excuse they may be using. Sure, our pitching faultered, but we still didn't hit, so whether Wang shit the bed or not, our offense didn't earn anything, let alone paying any player thirty million.
2007-10-13 18:40:22
210.   51cq24
206 well i agree that the difference it makes is probably very small. i also agree that it's way overblown, especially since pitchers and hitters alike have obviously been using them. but if they help you bulk up, why wouldn't that make you swing faster? you can't make a ball go further without swinging harder (faster). and in a game where tiny differences can make all the difference between a pop up and a home run, i think the effect is greater than you think.

as for the types of people who have been busted so far, we really don't know everything. it seems odd that hardly any big names have been implicated. but even if it is just fringe players, who is to say that they would have even less velocity or power without steroids?

2007-10-13 18:44:06
211.   51cq24
209 let's be fair. we didn't really have much trouble against sabathia either, although we obviously didn't hit him as well as the sox did yesterday. carmona is quite nasty. you can't expect him to be as good as he was against the yankees every time out though. i agree that there is more to the yankee losses. they don't have consistently good pitching. it isn't about having an ace, which we didn't have in 96 or 98. it's about having a consistently good rotation and a great bullpen, which enables you to get through teams that have 1 or 2 aces.
2007-10-13 18:48:38
212.   Vandelay Industries
210 It isn't the speed of the bat, but rather the flushness at point of contact. The tests done this far have shown that Steroids do not affect bat speed, but rather the power that is transfered from the body to the bat to the ball, and that is negligible. The power transfer launches the ball, not the speed of the bat. I could swing a bat as fast as many MLB players, but my skinny ass isn't going to transfer enough power to get the ball very far. This is why so many players used to use heavier bats, where now players lift weights and falsley believe that using a lighter bat with more speed is more effective, when it is not. For that matter, Barry Bonds has a very short compact swing, while Arod's is much more sweeping. While Arod generates more speed, Bonds hits just as many HR. I know we all have our opinions, I just think it makes it easier to discount accomplishments if folks know someone was a user, whether that use had any effect or not.
2007-10-13 18:49:44
213.   Vandelay Industries
211 Agreed.
2007-10-13 18:50:04
214.   Chyll Will
192 "I'm Not Anti-Business, I'm Anti-Idiot" which is my underlying theme for all PS discussion, sppbbtt!! ;p"

199 Two peas in a bucket, ...

200 Not if they had to include Sardihnia's middle name. That could be his saving grace if it were to be true, and if not the others could sneak out of the country with their ill-gotten gains before anyone could verifiably pronounce it. If this were a competition, he's already won before it started. Hooray Sun Tzu!

2007-10-13 18:51:48
215.   Vandelay Industries
214 Funny stuff.
2007-10-13 18:54:57
216.   51cq24
212 i agree with your last sentence, and that we should know whether it actually matters before making any real judgments. but i don't think you are right about your physics argument. bat speed is power. while the weight of the bat also makes a difference, it might be negated by the lessened bat speed. the "power" you transfer to the ball is generated by your bat speed. and the length of your swing is not necessarily related to your bat speed. arod's sweeping swing is not necessarily any faster than bonds' short swing. in fact i'd be surprised if bonds' isn't faster. with all due respect, i doubt your skinny ass can swing a bat as fast as any major league hitters.
2007-10-13 18:55:09
217.   Vandelay Industries
HR Cleveland. Yes, Cleveland does rock after all.
2007-10-13 18:59:13
218.   Vandelay Industries
216 Hey man! Only I get to make fun of my skinny ass....lol.

And yea, Bonds' swing is actually faster, which is why he's a better hitter than anyone in my lifetime. Bonds made a decision to chase HR's. His average suffered but his power numbers increased. He could have elected to chase Pete Rose for that matter. and probably could have caught him if that was the plan. But everyone loves the HR, so he went that route.

2007-10-13 19:00:23
219.   Chyll Will
215 If you think that's funny, let's wait to read what Mitchell has to say...
2007-10-13 19:08:26
220.   Vandelay Industries
219 What? David Eckstein is Jose Canseco's half brother, the leader of an underground Steroid ring and a rabid user?
2007-10-13 19:18:10
221.   Chyll Will
I suppose that metric could be accepted (Canseco ÷ 2 = Eckstein)
2007-10-13 19:33:38
222.   Vandelay Industries
Gonna walk Ortiz.............bye bye lead.
2007-10-13 19:36:28
223.   Chyll Will
221 Nope. Re-calibration: Canseco ÷ 8 = Eckstein (*2)...
2007-10-13 19:55:32
224.   Vandelay Industries
What's with Kenny Lofton? Do pinstripes post-2004 have post-season hit repellent on them?
2007-10-13 20:03:21
225.   OldYanksFan
While Barry's 'diet' may have added to his HR power and kept him healthier longer, I still think the numbers he has posted are superhuman. You could give steroid enemas to every other player, morning, noon and night, and I don't think anyone comes near Barry.

My guess is everybodys body reacts differently to steroids and HGH. Many players broke down after a few years. Giambi got sick. Freakin Bonds is 43, had 3 knee surgeries recently, plays the outfield, and still posted a 1.045 OPS this year.

The guy is just sick.

2007-10-13 21:37:00
226.   yankz
If I were a major league hitter, I would honestly crack up, in the batter's box, every time I saw Papelbon do that little gas face thing he does. I am 100% sure of this.
2007-10-13 22:22:57
227.   tommyl
Good to see that Eric Gagne trade continuing to help the Sox. I can't wait till Beltre starts hitting homeruns against them in a few years.
2007-10-13 22:33:22
228.   OldYanksFan
I gotta give Cleveland a lot of credit. The Sox looked totally dominant... aside from Schill. Their RP keeps them in games, and they continue to fight. A 7 run 11th would seem to move the series to Cleveland tied at 1.

Nice to see the Sox get pounded and lose.
Papi and Manny have been sick.

2007-10-13 22:34:14
229.   tommyl
Man am I glad we kept IPK and Melky instead of giving them up for Gagne.
2007-10-13 22:38:03
230.   tommyl
Wow, did the Sox ever implode there or what.
2007-10-13 23:25:12
231.   3rd gen yankee fan
Yay.
2007-10-14 01:16:01
232.   Vandelay Industries
225 Agreed. Which is why its so sad. He wasn't satisfied with eight gold gloves, seven MVP's, 3000+ hits, 500+ Sb's and 700 or so HR. He has to have 800, and those 100 HR, give or take, are worth more to him than being considered the second best hitter, and perhaps the best all-around player to ever to play this game. No steroid chatter and there are many out there who would confidently place him ahead of Ruth. Many players through the years have been absolute ass holes, but I could have overlooked that. The steroid use, assuming there has been any, I will not be able to overlook. I am still in the innocent until proven guilty camp, but that is a shrinking tent. I think it is just as dangerous to assume certain players are juiced, as it is to assume that the likes of Arod or Jeter are not. I do give him credit for not running off to some deserted island as the pieces of human garbage that are Marc McGuire and Rafael Palmero saw fit to do. I wish nothing but hardship on them.
2007-10-14 06:03:22
233.   Chyll Will
I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned and summarily ridiculed, but William Rhoden of the New York Times suggested in his analysis of the current managing situation that Dusty Baker would be a perfect fit for the Yankees if Torre is to be replaced. For the love of chicken wings, I'm actually not kidding, it's right here:

http://tinyurl.com/2rk7pw

(Dusty did say he could live anywhere, so good luck with WKRP >;)

2007-10-14 06:38:57
234.   ms october
233 I saw that the other day and figured Rhoden didn't have anything else to write. Dusty probably couldn't take Rick Sutcliff or Steve Phillips anymore (whichever moron he calls games with) so he is going to go eat chilli-3way.
2007-10-14 07:44:31
235.   yankz
Sherman gets it:

http://tinyurl.com/22frbo

2007-10-14 08:15:36
236.   OldYanksFan
Dusty just got a 3 year deal to manage the Reds.
If you Yanks do trash Torre, I can't imagine they would do it for anyone BUT
Don Mattingly or Joe Girardi.
Maybe, maybe an outside chance of Pena of Bowa.

But if they go outside of the organization, there will be great unrest amongst the players AND coaches.

2007-10-14 08:33:41
237.   tommyl
233 Dear lord, Dusty Baker must be the dumbest man to ever manage a baseball team. I remember his comment a few years back about how he disliked it when his players walked because it "clogged the bases." He also gets bonus points for having the highest pitcher abuse points basically ever with Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Good luck Reds, you'll need it.
2007-10-14 08:49:49
238.   OldYanksFan
We lament a great deal over the fact that we can win a PS spot, but can't seem to get the ring. This is NOT at all to rationalize either our lack of pitching or poor play, but simply to consider:

Bud and Co do NOT want the Yankees (or anyone else) to be dominant in the PS. More then anything, he wants to prove 'competative balance'. He is SO proud that only one team from last year's PS made it again to this year's PS.

We all know the best teams are the ones that do the best over 162 games. Bud could make an attempt to have the PS reflect the 162 season as closely as possible, but they don't... quite the opposite.

The biggest 'spit in the face' is of course the 5 game series. Unfortunately, poor Bud tells us the season is already too long and we just can't find the room for TWO extra games. However, we can, and do, if Fox wants to manipulate the schedule to maximize their viewership. And now, this stupid 'extra day'.

So this year, the Sox schedule after the season was:
3 days off
1 game
1 day off
1 game
1 day off (travel)
2 games
1 day off (travel)
1 game.
This is how we mimick the trials and tribulations of the regular season.

Did you know at one time way back when, the WS was 9 games?
And that 10(?) or so years ago the ALCS was ALSO 5 games?

While I want more WS rings, and I will not excuse 3 1/2 years of underperforming in the PS, I don't think we should be 'Steinbrennerish' and buy the fact that 1 or 2 bad bounces, or bad calls can be the different between losing the ALDS or going all the way.

And Bud and Co. have absolutely NO motivation what-so-ever, to try and have the PS do it's best at determining the best team in baseball.

Here's my solution.
For the DS and CS:
night game
day game and travel
night game
night game
day game and travel
night game
night game
7 games in a ROW!

For the WS:
Same thing
DAY OFF
Game 8
Game 9

Now thats some kickass Baseball!

2007-10-14 09:34:04
239.   Bob B
Just a quick comment on the steroid issue. Steroids seriously improve your eyesight. I read an article by a doctor who took a bunch of designer steroids to get a first hand experience-this was in Outside magazine, I believe. The first comment he made was about how his eyesight improved dramatically and that the improvement was so great he was shocked. Take that into account when someone has to hit a 90 + fastball or a 80- curve ball and you can imagine the edge it gives a hitter.
2007-10-14 09:43:07
240.   mehmattski
239 The plural of anecdotes is not data... show me the clinical study that connects anabolic steroids with improved eyesight.
2007-10-14 09:52:06
241.   tommyl
240 While I don't buy 239 s argument entirely, I don't think you'll ever see that study done. To mimick what he is suggesting you'd have to dose way over the safe limit. The study would be dangerous, unethical and would never, ever be funded.
2007-10-14 10:31:49
242.   OldYanksFan
235 Wow.... that article sounded like... I mean it really sounded like.... it was written by someone talking BASEBALL.

Really good. Should be required reading for all Banterers. It's rare I read a newspaper article without shaking my head multiple times in disgust.

I almost wish we could discuss next year on the basis of 162 games, and ignor what happens in the PS. We all already know that excellent pitching wins the PS, and that one Santana-like guy makes a BIG difference.

I think the emotional High/Low of the PS impairs our judgement a bit. Torre's, ARod's and anyone else's standing shouldn't be judged by our feelings from the PS.

I liked Shermans statement:
"If the Yankees retain all of their key veterans before free agency opens, there is little to fix. They would have the structure of a playoff team in place and most of their offseason business done by the second week in November."

And I thought that at the end of the year, most of us felt this way. Yeah... lets see how we can better the 1B situation, get at least one arm for the BP, and basically stand pat, unless something really decent jumps out at us.

The DJMB is very strong. Molina is about as much as we can expect from a BUC. Giambi, Molina, Betemin, Shelly, and maybe 1 more. That's strong. I can't imagine we would get much return on Mats or JD or Giambi, and who's gonna replace them.

I actually thought we were sitting pretty (assuming no one walks) With what we already have, adding Hughes, Joba and IPK, and a whole bunch of kids one year closer, this team is WAY, WAY better then the one we opened with in 2007. And for all it's holes, that really wasn't a bad team.

2007-10-14 10:55:43
243.   51cq24
242 maybe they shouldn't be judged by our feelings from the postseason, but can't they be judged by their performances in the postseason?
2007-10-14 12:49:38
244.   yankz
HUGE news: Steinbrenner officially giving control to his boys:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3063506

2007-10-14 12:55:08
245.   cult of basebaal
244 the thing that made me smile was this

While Torre's future remains in doubt, it appears young pitcher Joba Chamberlain will be joining the Yankees starting rotation come spring training.

"That's something I'll insist on," said Hank Steinbrenner.

2007-10-14 13:32:31
246.   JL25and3
237 I'm not going to kill Dusty for Kerry Wood's problems. Wood was 26, not a tender kid, and he pitched 213 innings the year before Baker got there.

Prior's a different story. He was 22, and Baker threw him out for 211 IP (up from 160 or so the previous year. His abuse of Carlos Zambrano may have been even worse - 214 IP at age 22, up from 117 the year before. It's just that that one doesn't get noticed because Zambrano didn't get hurt.

2007-10-14 13:38:11
247.   OldYanksFan
243 Well.... then you would have to shoot the coaches and break up the team.
2007-10-14 13:40:30
248.   OldYanksFan
246 Shouldn't the pitching coach and/or someone in the FO be tracking things like this and getting the manager feedback?
2007-10-14 13:45:20
249.   OldYanksFan
"Manager Joe Torre's status for next season will likely be decided during those discussions."
Likely?

"There's always been a succession -- and that's myself and my brother," Hank Steinbrenner told the paper.
Somes like a Kingdom. Gotta love your big Brother.

Does this mean if Torre comes back the Boss saves face, as the decision is out of his hands (HA!)?

2007-10-14 14:00:30
250.   OldYanksFan
"SI.com reported two months ago that clubhouse man-turned-dealer Kirk Radomski cooperated extensively with Mitchell, providing names. Radomski, whose sentencing was postponed from Sept. 7 to Nov. 9, according to his Long Island-based lawyer John Reilly, has phone records and bank records of his dealings. One of Radomski's cohorts told SI.com two months ago, 'When you see the steroid list, it's going to blow your mind.'"
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-10-14 16:34:19
251.   SF Yanks
One thing that's not getting mentioned much is the bullpen next year. We have a chance to have a really talented almost home-grown bullpen. There's Mo, Ohlendorf, Edwar (maybe), and a BUNCH of guys to choose from on the farm. Such as, J.B. Cox, Sanchez, Clippard, Whelan, Claggett and I could go on and on. I'm sure there are a few of these guys who will stick and they're probably better options then anything else out there and cheap too.

Granted, if we keep Farns, Bruney, Villone and all the other scrubs then this doesn't work out too well. But as excited as I am to watch Jophilian (JoPhilIan) pitch, we can get a good look at a lot of our youngsters in the pen, like we did with Ollie this year.

2007-10-14 17:04:42
252.   monkeypants
Roger Clemens on Mythbusters tonight!
2007-10-14 17:12:06
253.   underdog
252 I have that listed as coming on Monday night, at least on my local cable channel's listings for the Discovery channel. But that special Baseball myths episode should be awesome.

(Meaningless aside: I saw One of the mythbusters guys driving around the other day. Not a surprise since I live in SF and so do they, but it startled me for some reason.)

2007-10-14 17:21:37
254.   monkeypants
253 Ah, I'm in Canada and Discovery Canada must have a slightly different programming schedule. I won't tell how any of the myths play out, but I will say that they go to extremes making elaborate gadgets to test some of the myths, when much simpler solutions would have done the trick.
2007-10-14 17:26:23
255.   SF Yanks
253 Cool! I live in Pacifica.
2007-10-14 17:34:58
256.   yankz
253 Jamie or Adam? This is very, very important!
2007-10-14 17:41:54
257.   monkeypants
Oooh--next myth is sliding v. running to the base, which is faster. I wonder if Melky watches Mythbusters?
2007-10-14 17:52:47
258.   underdog
256 Jamie, and wearing his beret, too! In a beat up pick-up. Though I think Kari is the one I'd most like to meet in person...

257 Na na na, I'm not listening, na na na...

2007-10-14 18:15:53
259.   tommyl
Hey, is Derek Jeter playing for the D-backs? I kid, I kid ;)
2007-10-14 18:38:08
260.   OldYanksFan
251 I don't think the Yankees have given up on Farns yet. Villone might be the 'if everything else goes as wrong as it could possibly go' spot, but Bruney....?

Remember Carlos Pena? That 9 time loser that turned into Barry Bonds? Whom everybody kicked Cashman for letting go? Could KC pick up Bruney and end up with 'Sandy Bruney'?

Are we ready to give up on him?

2007-10-14 19:06:05
261.   monkeypants
260 There's no harm, no foul in keeping Bruney, at least at MiL level to start the season. Who knows, maybe he'll figure out how to throw strikes--relivers are flaky that way. Likewise, Farnsworth's career suggests that he might be duee for one of his periodic effective season. The real problem with Farnsworth, IMO, is not his ineffectiveness (in the end, he was basically a somewhat worse than league average pitcher with a very frustrating ability to combine walks and homers), but his inflexibility.
2007-10-14 19:47:16
262.   yankz
Good god, Colorado is winning again.
2007-10-14 19:55:00
263.   monkeypants
262 At least they outscored their opponents this year. Anyway, I could really care less who wins this series.
2007-10-14 20:04:26
264.   yankz
263 The pressure on their pitchers must be intense. Nobody wants to be the asshole that ends that incredible run.
2007-10-14 20:06:53
265.   Max
262 Wasn't one of Cliff's most memorable posts this year something along the lines of "Josh Fogg sucks" when he was previewing the Rockies against the Yanks?

You just can't predict baseball.

2007-10-14 20:20:03
266.   Chyll Will
265 Cliff said:

"This just in: The Rockies don't suck."

He later went on to say,

"Josh Fogg kinda sucks though..."

So in a way he did predict it, but he hedged on Fogg, who was a legit pick to suck at the time. Of course, the Yanks weren't necessarily back on their feet and running at that particular time either, having been wasted by San Fran. Overall, good call by Mr. Man >;)

http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/699828.html#comments

2007-10-14 20:27:21
267.   Max
As long as Fogg continues the Dragonslayer thing and beats Beckett in the WS (I know they probably won't be matched up, but I just love the thought of it), I would be very happy.
2007-10-14 20:29:09
268.   monkeypants
265 266 I did like the Fox and/or TBS graphic (who is broadcasting this? I get it on Rogers Sports Net up here) that called Fogg a dragon slayer, pointing out a number of illustrious starters whom he had defeated thsi season. That's all fine, except the list included Moose. That's one ornery old toothless dragon.
2007-10-14 20:29:48
269.   monkeypants
267 weird--we were typing that at the same time.
2007-10-14 20:45:43
270.   Max
269 That was strange...but good thoughts to channel together. :-)

The Rockies are going almost too good for me, though...if they sweep, they'll likely have a pretty long break before playing the winner of the ALCS. (I'm assuming that series will go six games) I just can't see them continuing their streak with all the attention on them and that long to sit around answering questions about it.

But perhaps I'm being premature, and maybe the Diamondbacks have some sort of miraculous comeback in them.

2007-10-14 20:52:54
271.   yankz
270 They had a pretty long break before the NLCS, too.

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