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Moose Tacos?
2007-08-27 13:30
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Mike Mussina's been mind-bottlingly awful in his last two starts. Justin Verlander was pretty awful himself last week against Cleveland (4 IP, 7 R). The weekend prior to that, Verlander worked 5 1/3 inefficient innings in the Bronx (119 pitches), but managed to pull out the win as he allowed only three runs and the pitcher he was facing was none other than Mike Mussina (5 IP, 7 R). The Yankees are hoping the rematch will tilt the other way, as they need this last game of the series to salvage a split and some dignity from this road trip before heading home to play three games against the suddenly out-of-reach Red Sox. Mussina, meanwhile, could very well be pitching for his job.

Damon in left, Matsui DH, Giambi at first for the second day in a row. Putting G'Bombi in the field scares me, as supposedly that's how he hurt his foot in the first place, but this is undoubtedly the Yankees' best offensive alignment.

Comments (261)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-08-27 15:47:11
1.   Yankee Fan in Chicago
Per this road trip, and the post-all star break part of the season:

If we win tonight, I think we can count this road trip a success, given the level of the teams we played. Even if we lose, it's not a disaster, at least re the wild card.

When the 2nd 1/2 began, I thought if we were within 3 of the wildcard, and within 6 of the division by the time we left Detroit, we'd be in good shape. A win puts us well w/in the first, and only a game off the 2nd.

What worries me is the way we've lost 3 of the games on this trip. Close games that we couldn't pull out. Against playoff caliber teams. Sound familiar? I'm getting flashbacks of Octobers past, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006.

I think we'll make the playoffs, but those are the types of games we'll have to win to be successful once we're into October. On the basis of this road trip, we'll be out in the first round once again, and chances are it will because we lost a game 2 or 3 that we could've/should've won, just as we lost game 1 in Anaheim, and games 1 and 3 in Detroit this road trip.

2007-08-27 16:00:36
2.   ny2ca2dc
I agree Giambino at First is scary, but we gotta have the best lineup out there every day, risks be damned. Keeping him out of the lineup means no playoffs (probably), so it's all-in time!

Lets go Moose!

2007-08-27 16:05:22
3.   OldYanksFan
Over the nexy 30 games, Giambi's bat alone will win us 2 or 3 games. Hopefully Joe realizes this. I feel much better about our chances if he goes back to being an everyday player.
2007-08-27 16:08:38
4.   Ken Arneson
I've been reading my daughters The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy this week. I never realized how often Douglas Adams used the word "mind-bogglingly" until I tried to say that word aloud a dozen times, and have my tongue trip over it every time. I think from now on, I'll use "mind-bottlingly" instead.

As the resident consumer of Moose Tacos:
bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/archives/774195.html#35
I'll add this to the growing knowledge of Moosedom on this blog: Mike Mussina may, in fact, not only be to blame for the Yankees struggles this year, but he's also to blame for global warming:
spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,501145,00.html

2007-08-27 16:09:27
5.   yankz
Sheff is DL'd. I'd much rather Cleveland win the central.
2007-08-27 16:18:53
6.   SF Yanks
I already feel bad for Moose.
2007-08-27 16:20:41
7.   SF Yanks
Let's go Moose. I'm pullin' for ya buddy.
2007-08-27 16:23:08
8.   yankz
Great start!
2007-08-27 16:24:03
9.   SF Yanks
I really feel like we could potentially be watching Moose's last start for a long time, and I can't help feeling bad for the guy.
2007-08-27 16:24:53
10.   SF Yanks
Guess it's just me and you yankz.
2007-08-27 16:25:34
11.   yankz
10 I'll be here as long as I can, but my stomach is rumbling.
2007-08-27 16:25:35
12.   Yankees Brasil
Couldn't be better..
2007-08-27 16:26:18
13.   Yankees Brasil
10 I'll be here for a while..
2007-08-27 16:26:26
14.   yankz
Pretty much have to get the K or a shallow pop-up, right? Granderson's too fast to get on a casual grounder anywhere.
2007-08-27 16:27:05
15.   yankz
Never mind! Phew.
2007-08-27 16:27:28
16.   OldYanksFan
Wow... what a GREAT freakin' play! Amazing!
2007-08-27 16:27:46
17.   yankz
That was a great throw from Cano, considering the way his body was set up.
2007-08-27 16:27:53
18.   SF Yanks
14 What's that?
2007-08-27 16:28:19
19.   OldYanksFan
Are u'z guys watching on ESPN?
2007-08-27 16:28:40
20.   SF Yanks
Me no likey this matchy upy.
2007-08-27 16:29:42
21.   yankz
Moose just hit 90, according to the Detroit feed.

I wonder how he feels about moneyball, given his economics background.

2007-08-27 16:29:56
22.   OldYanksFan
Bad news. It's bad Moose.
2007-08-27 16:29:58
23.   SF Yanks
19 EI, I got the Detroit feed, but thanks for telling me. I didn't know it was on ESPN. Now I get to watch it in HD.
2007-08-27 16:30:31
24.   SF Yanks
22 Not necessarily. They have been hitting some good pitches.
2007-08-27 16:30:31
25.   OldYanksFan
5 inches outside...
2007-08-27 16:31:39
26.   SF Yanks
Here we go. This might tell us a lot about Moose's future.
2007-08-27 16:32:14
27.   OldYanksFan
Moose needs to pitch in on the hands. Good hitters can handle outside pitches. Is the game on ESPN in SF?
2007-08-27 16:32:40
28.   SF Yanks
WOW!
2007-08-27 16:32:44
29.   yankz
OK guys, hold the fort. I've gotta eat and then get some work done.
2007-08-27 16:33:13
30.   OldYanksFan
Wow...
gotta go change my underwear now.
2007-08-27 16:33:18
31.   yankz
MELKY!!! YES!!
2007-08-27 16:33:31
32.   SF Yanks
27 Yeah it is.
2007-08-27 16:33:34
33.   Zack
OH MY GOD
2007-08-27 16:33:37
34.   yankz
He ran as far as Mays did in '54.
2007-08-27 16:34:16
35.   yankz
Doesn't it seem like Melky makes one of those a week?

OK, really going now.

2007-08-27 16:35:31
36.   SF Yanks
35 sniffle, sniffle, you're leaving me?
2007-08-27 16:36:24
37.   OldYanksFan
Why does Moose refuse to pitch inside???
2007-08-27 16:36:49
38.   SF Yanks
C'mon Moosey! Guts time.
2007-08-27 16:37:36
39.   nyy jim
Horrible start for Moose. He's darn lucky to get out of it with only one run thanks to Melky. 30 Pitches in the first inning isn't going to help us tonight.
2007-08-27 16:38:17
40.   SF Yanks
37 Yeah, he really should. Everything is outside and at the speed he's throwing, these hitters just need to extend their arms to hit it hard.
2007-08-27 16:40:45
41.   mehmattski
If this continues, Mussina's gonna have a lot of watches or steak dinners to buy his defenders. Melky and Cano are already due something, for sure.
2007-08-27 16:41:25
42.   thelarmis
hi all. hmmm, verlander wears the number as moose. can they just switch pitching repetoires? that would be cool.

we need a g'bomb-i right about now...

2007-08-27 16:42:25
43.   thelarmis
hmmm, let's switch velocity to our #35. 97mph fastball, beautiful uncle charlie...
2007-08-27 16:43:21
44.   thelarmis
damn, that was fast. verlander with less pitches in 2 than moose in 1...
2007-08-27 16:44:43
45.   Yankees Brasil
Horrible start.. not what we needed..
2007-08-27 16:48:51
46.   Good4baseball
Is it me, or are there nights you just watch this team and think, "There is no way they're going to win tonight." Mussina looks as old as Tommy John out there.
2007-08-27 16:53:09
47.   C2Coke
Tacos for everyone?
2007-08-27 16:53:40
48.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Listening online again, Tigers announcers killing Abreu for not throwing home..what happened??
not feeling confident either with this start...
2007-08-27 16:54:53
49.   thelarmis
wow, moose sucks. hello quest? ugh...
2007-08-27 16:55:17
50.   nyy jim
We are digging the hole a little deeper. Get the BP ready.
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-08-27 16:55:33
51.   Max
How much longer till Moose gets the hook?
2007-08-27 16:56:34
52.   bobtaco
Mousse.
2007-08-27 16:56:57
53.   C2Coke
48 If there's already someone warming up in the bullpen, you know Abreu is not the one solely to blame.
2007-08-27 16:57:07
54.   thelarmis
the Phantom Warrior is warming in the pen. 51 pitches, 0 k's, 3 runs, 2 innings. yikes.
2007-08-27 16:57:29
55.   C2Coke
51 When they have the grill ready.
2007-08-27 17:00:27
56.   thelarmis
moose gives up:

1 in the 1st

2 in the 2nd

-- do i hear --

3 in the 3rd???

god, i hope not... : ~

2007-08-27 17:01:28
57.   OldYanksFan
46 My normal optimism has totlly left me. Moose looks as bad as Verlander looks good.

Melky is obviously confident going back as he plays a VERY shallow CF. Check out his positioning next time you can.

As good as Abreu can be with the bat, he costs us a LOT with his glove (or lack thereof). Now that I get to watch a very good defender in CF, I am unhappy with the combo of Mats and Abreu. Maybe the solution to the JD 'problem' is to move Mats to RF, JD to LF, let Abreu walk (thats $16m to spend elsewhere) and bring up a 4th OFer.

I can't stand our shitty OF defense (Melky excluded of course).

2007-08-27 17:01:32
58.   thelarmis
leche! let's not give up yet, it's early. let's go fellas.
2007-08-27 17:02:01
59.   rbj
I can't stand the Tiger tv announcers.
Moose tacos with a Pepto chaser.
2007-08-27 17:03:08
60.   thelarmis
bollocks
2007-08-27 17:04:33
61.   thelarmis
59 sutcliffe and steve phillips are no walk in the park, either. i'm just glad i finally get to see our boyz on tv in the comfort of my own home. of course, moose is ruining that and i'm about to do a bunch of other things and just have the game be background... : /
2007-08-27 17:04:50
62.   Emma Span
This is tough to watch, isn't it? Not that they can't come back, just to see a great athlete struggle this much. It's awkward, like we should give him some privacy.

If you had told me ten years ago that David Wells at age 44 would pitch a better game than Mike Mussina at age 38...

2007-08-27 17:05:49
63.   OldYanksFan
This is a really bad time of year for Jetes to shit the bed. I would sit him down.
2007-08-27 17:06:15
64.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Seattle's tv guys the worst..saw a game last week where the lead guy announces JJ Putz coming out of the pen as 'And look at the BIG STUD RUMBLING to stand tall on the mound!'....shudder.....
2007-08-27 17:07:56
65.   OldYanksFan
JD is now the worst hitter on the team. Maybe Shelly should DH. Or Betemin.
2007-08-27 17:11:01
66.   Max
This game is not over, but it sure doesn't look good. I guess it was premature to declare we turned the corner a few weeks ago...the reality is that losing 5 of 7 on a crucial road trip, with four games against a team that's struggled much more than us, is not a good sign.

With that said, I'm not giving up on this game yet...at least, until the next 3 runs Moose gives up.

2007-08-27 17:11:39
67.   OldYanksFan
It's like Moose only has 1/2 a home plate to work with. Pitch INSIDE! Brush guys back! Get in on their hands! You are not good enough to only pitch outside.

And that pitch was outside...
Common Guidry. Take a walk!

Crap... Ballgame basically over.

2007-08-27 17:12:10
68.   nyy jim
Hey JT haven't you seen enough?
2007-08-27 17:12:16
69.   thelarmis
moose is useless. 2 more to give up 3 in the 3rd! uy yuy fuking yuy
2007-08-27 17:13:05
70.   Marcus
Our Moose is cooked.
2007-08-27 17:13:21
71.   mehmattski
Mommy, the moose on the hill is scary! Make him go away!
2007-08-27 17:13:52
72.   thelarmis
67 i know! it's like he's pitching petrified. he's not going after anyone. infuriating.

and this is the only game i get to watch. i'll be teaching wed. nite when rocket will be on espn2...

2007-08-27 17:15:33
73.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Tigers announcers killing Mussina now, and asking why Joba isn't starting already with his stuff....good Qs indeed....
2007-08-27 17:15:47
74.   Mattpat11
The shame of it is he was pitching pretty well in the second before the keystone kops bullshit.
2007-08-27 17:16:50
75.   Mattpat11
TAKE HIM OUT.
2007-08-27 17:16:55
76.   rbj
Sigh.
2007-08-27 17:18:25
77.   rbj
56 You called it.
2007-08-27 17:18:27
78.   Mattpat11
KEYSTONE FUCKING KOPS.
2007-08-27 17:19:04
79.   thelarmis
wow. game fucking over. absolutely pathetic. and, go ahead and blame me - there's the 1 in the 1st, 2 in the 2nd, 3 in the 3rd. 68 pitches, an in-game WHIP of over 3. unfuckingbelievable.

carp on a cracker.

2007-08-27 17:19:11
80.   mehmattski
I've turned from the game to an episode of Law and Order, still got the game in the small PiP box. If you squint real hard, Mussina looks a lot like David Cone, circa 2000.
2007-08-27 17:19:13
81.   C2Coke
56 ......
2007-08-27 17:19:27
82.   Zack
Wow, we sure didn't need this. What a joke. I'm off to the gym to forget about this team
2007-08-27 17:19:38
83.   bartap74
4 in the 4th?
2007-08-27 17:19:54
84.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
D'oh!!! Ok, think it's actually time to focus on work, less painful than listening to this....
2007-08-27 17:20:15
85.   OldYanksFan
69 Bubbala - I believe you meant: OY-YOY-YOY
However.. OY VEY! this is definitely Fercockt!
And 3 in the 3rd it is. Please! No more predictions! :-(
2007-08-27 17:21:02
86.   Max
66 Well, Moose made it easy for me to give up on this one.

Someone should tell him, though, that horror movies are supposed to have some suspense. Everyone knew the plot for this one before they even got a chance to order popcorn.

2007-08-27 17:21:03
87.   randym77
Melky does play a very shallow CF, but is that his doing? Don't the coaches position the OFers?
2007-08-27 17:21:19
88.   thelarmis
77 i know, my bad. me sorry. very very sorry.

igawa has to be better than this. doesn't he? let gator pitch...

time to get shit done and put game on mute in the background.

let's somehow sweep boston. please.

2007-08-27 17:21:21
89.   Mattpat11
If Bobby Abreu tried, we may avoided that. But this team is screwed.
2007-08-27 17:21:21
90.   vockins
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. Stop the insanity.
2007-08-27 17:22:54
91.   thelarmis
89 he did try. he just failed. he ran hard.

85 oh, that's just how i spell it. oy gevolt!

2007-08-27 17:23:12
92.   ny2ca2dc
62 It really is Emma; For some reason I'm able to not get too worked up about this likely loss, maybe because it's just so sad to see what Moose has become. You've got to expect a change to be made. I really hope he gets traded to Philly or something, he can still probably help a team like that in the NL.
2007-08-27 17:25:02
93.   monkeypants
65 You're runnng out of players to bench!
2007-08-27 17:25:10
94.   thelarmis
hmmm, if bob timmermann is out there...

how many frames is the record for scoring the # of runs to match the inning #? ok, that was phrased horribly, but you know what i mean...

1 run in the 1st
2 in the 2nd
etc. etc.

how far has that gone? either way, let's stop this one at 3...

2007-08-27 17:27:27
95.   thelarmis
and pete abe makes a funny reference to the hank aaron pitch back! we had a great thread conversation about that here at the banter a few months back...
2007-08-27 17:27:49
96.   yankz
He was going for the reverse quality start, and he got it.
2007-08-27 17:29:00
97.   Mattpat11
91 He was running hard if he had two wooden legs. That was a jog.
2007-08-27 17:29:19
98.   monkeypants
92 What makes it so painful, to me, is how Moose teases. Not every ball is smacked hard or driven deep. He gets ahead of a few batters quickly; he makes some nice pitches; hee gives up a dink and dunk. And all the while you want to believe that he's really not pitching that bad, and maybe he's not (or at least not as bad as the results).

But at a certain point, you just have to start missing bats.

2007-08-27 17:30:11
99.   nyy jim
Besides Moose shitting the bed, our great offensive line-up isn't doing crap against Verlander. If this team of great hitters can't bail out the bad pitching then it's probably best we don't make the playoffs and spare ourselves the ridicule of how we choked again.
2007-08-27 17:30:39
100.   Mattpat11
So do we call up Kennedy?
Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-08-27 17:31:31
101.   thelarmis
96 ooh, yankz - you shoulda gone to a restaurant that takes forever so you didn't have to rush back for this sad excuse of a game with supposed playoff implications. well, at least you get to see The Phatom (Edwarrior)...
2007-08-27 17:32:36
102.   thelarmis
as i was saying...

god fuking dammit!!!

this team is falling apart...

2007-08-27 17:32:37
103.   Mattpat11
Well, there's some relief there.
2007-08-27 17:33:01
104.   yankz
101 I know, but I was starving, so I settled for fast food. Bad choice, apparently.
2007-08-27 17:33:07
105.   OldYanksFan
91 GAVALT?
Have some fun.
http://www.sbjf.org/sbjco/schmaltz/yiddish_phrases.htm
2007-08-27 17:33:11
106.   randym77
94 The way this game is going, we'll break it when the Tiggers score 5 in the 4th. :-P
2007-08-27 17:33:45
107.   thelarmis
3 more for 4 in the 4th... what else is there to look forward to in this game?
2007-08-27 17:33:50
108.   yankz
Jesus H!
2007-08-27 17:34:31
109.   vockins
Looks like I'm spending the rest of the night searching for Napalm Death videos on youtube.
2007-08-27 17:35:10
110.   yankz
It's important to note that the Yanks still would be losing if Moose had given up just one run. He sucks, but the offense underperformed again.
2007-08-27 17:35:50
111.   monkeypants
100 I wonder if the way to go isn't to call up tons of BP help, and every five days simply pitch a BP game. Start with Joba for two innings, followed by a string of relievers depending on the game situation. I'm not sure using, say, seven pitchers thus is much different than calling up Kennedy (who will be on a short leash), or using Igawa or Moose (who will only give a few innings). Depending on the few remaining off days, they can also try to move to a partial four-man rotation.

Basically, it's a 30 game season right now, and by the middle of September (after Seattle plays the Yankees and Angels) they will know if the last couple of weeks even matter.

2007-08-27 17:37:15
112.   thelarmis
105 nice. thanks OYF! i only know certain words/phrases. my mom and grandparents only spoke Yiddish in the house, but just so my brother and i wouldn't understand what they were talking about. soooo, we were never taught it. hebrew was our 1st language in school, but i forgot all of it...
2007-08-27 17:38:09
113.   Marcus
109 ?!?
2007-08-27 17:38:59
114.   thelarmis
104 yeah, i ran to the local pizza joint for a coupla quick slices and barq's root beer. i got back in the bottom of the 1st when there were 2 on with 1 out. i wasn't surprised...

109 from enslavement to obliteration

2007-08-27 17:39:43
115.   thelarmis
113 they were an awful death/hardcore/metal band from the UK. they have fans - apparently - but they were truly terrible.
2007-08-27 17:41:03
116.   monkeypants
110 "He sucks, but the offense underperformed again."

Again? You mean the offense that has scored 4, 7, 6, 8, 9, 6, 9, 5, 6, (going backwards) over the last 10 games. That's 6 runs a game, by the way.

2007-08-27 17:41:48
117.   bartap74
108 I hear he's got one hell of a curveball. Maybe we could sign him.
2007-08-27 17:42:13
118.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Napalm Death too boring. How about this for some comic relief from the putrid performance by the Yanks tonight? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTKL8MNH95Q

Go, Apache, Go!

2007-08-27 17:42:49
119.   bartap74
Hey, my Dave Winfield jersey now doubles as an Edwar jersey. I like Ramirez, but I wish they'd retire Winfield's number already. He's a HOFer and he was Derek Jeter's favorite player for God's sake.
2007-08-27 17:43:34
120.   yankz
116 When did I say as of late? WasWatching had the stats a few weeks ago, the offense doesn't hit good pitching very well.
2007-08-27 17:43:42
121.   randym77
I don't think the offense underperformed. It's Verlander. He's good, and he's been pitching well.
2007-08-27 17:43:56
122.   AbbyNormal821
Well, glad to see I didn't rush home from the gym to watch the game. Seems I must've broken more of a sweat than Moose did during his time on the mound.

What a bucket full of crapnanigans this game is!

2007-08-27 17:45:33
123.   monkeypants
119 I wish they would de-retire some numbers (44 would be the first to go and also 23--I hate to say). Having your number retired should be an extreme honor, not some reward for being a very good player.
2007-08-27 17:46:21
124.   bartap74
Mussina's updated ERA: 5.53
2007-08-27 17:47:09
125.   bartap74
123 I'd get rid of Maris before Reggie or Mattingly.
2007-08-27 17:47:39
126.   monkeypants
120 Oh, I'm sorry. So you're arguing that som etimes in the past, the offense has underperformed, which is defined as not hitting well against good pitching? The whole lot of them clearly lack intestinal fortitude.
2007-08-27 17:47:45
127.   rbj
I've got a Dr. appointment tomorrow am, so I'm assuming that Moose just had my best interest at heart and wants me to go to bed at a decent time.
2007-08-27 17:48:24
128.   monkeypants
125 I agree entirely, he'd be off my list too.
2007-08-27 17:50:52
129.   yankz
126 What the hell does it have to do with intestinal fortitude? They underperform in terms of their own god damn averages, and pretty drastically. Look up the numbers over at his blog if you care that fucking much about the comment.
2007-08-27 17:50:54
130.   ny2ca2dc
98 Couldn't have said it better myself, wife & were talking about the same thing. Lots of stuff was not hard hit (ball dropped between Melk & Abreu, Abreu missing one, Jeter up the middle), but then he does go and give up a big un (couple of them caught though, thanks Melk!). He just doesn't have it.

Wild card still possible though folks.

2007-08-27 17:51:20
131.   yankz
And is this another 1 inning per pitcher game?
2007-08-27 17:51:31
132.   monkeypants
And let the one inning merry-go-round begin.
2007-08-27 17:51:48
133.   rsmith51
123 So no Bernie?

21 hasn't been worn since O'Neill retired.

I think Bernie should get his number retired, not O'Neill.

I am OK without Maris and Reggie, but it would look weird for another Yank to wear 44.

2007-08-27 17:52:16
134.   SF Yanks
Maybe Abreu can lob it in a little more next time. What a loaf! Get him outa here.
2007-08-27 17:52:19
135.   randym77
A triple for Casey? Oy. The guy can hardly move.
2007-08-27 17:52:23
136.   williamnyy23
I was glad to see that no one has been killing the Moose. It's pretty sad to watch a very good pitcher fall apart so completely. I know he has $11mn guaranteed, but I can't see him pitching again next season, at least not for the Yankees.

Someone else mentioned it, but I think the Yankees probably dropped the ball in not promoting Joba as a starter. When you analyze how he has been used, Joba has only pitched three innings with the Yankees ahead/behing by less than three runs (and they lost 3 of those games). In other words, his awesome right arm has been marginalized. Meanwhile, the Yankees have no chance to win when Moose faces a decent lineup.

Clearly, the division race is over. At this point, the wild card is still within reach, but I don't have much confidence they can make it. The Yankees have proven that they can't beat good teams, nor can they win close games or road games. Those are all hallmarks of mediocre teams. After the All Star break, the Yankees were fortunate to have a very easy schedule. I think that fooled a lot of people into thinking they were better than they are, but ultimately, what has been shown is that the first three months were not a fluke. This is a poorly managed team with its fair share of holes. Having said that, it probably is as good as the likes of Seattle and Detroit. Ultimately, I think the difference could come down to the Yankees losing a few extra games because of Torre's poor game management.

2007-08-27 17:52:35
137.   tommyl
Well Henn showing why its important to have a lefty reliever on the team. Britton, Chris? Bueller?

Its good that we're back to our form of helping struggling teams right themselves.

2007-08-27 17:52:48
138.   thelarmis
now that was abreu lollygagging around the cavernous park. boBBy should be pulled. let's just forfeit and get back to the bronx and get a good nite sleep...
2007-08-27 17:54:10
139.   yankz
Hey, they came back down 9 vs. Texas last year...
2007-08-27 17:54:51
140.   bobtaco
Time to DFA Henn.
2007-08-27 17:55:10
141.   yankz
Why was Henn not put on the bereavement list?
2007-08-27 17:55:27
142.   OldYanksFan
123 Agreed. It makes it less special when it is done too frequently. And we are running out of numbers.

111 Nice thought but it would burn the BP. We need Joba to possibly help save the other 4 starts.

110 The team is playing depressed tonight. When a starter gives up1, then2, then 3, it is hard not be be emotionally beaten. If we were down by 2, I would feel comfortable that we would come back. But now I feel beaten about the head and shoulders.

91 It seems Bobby rarely runs full out. He seems perpetually scared of running into something. Maybe he has a blob lurking in his peripheral vision. And he does not take good routes to balls considering how much experience he has. I think he is worse then Shef.

Is Bobby worse then Shef? Opinions?

Does anyone think our recent team swoon coincides with Jeters swoon? His #2 spot is an integral part of our offense.

2007-08-27 17:55:30
143.   bartap74
131 Hmmm, this game is pretty much a lost cause and we've got a huge series against Boston. I know. Let's try to use every pitcher in the bullpen!!!! Won't that be fun.

Ugh.

2007-08-27 17:55:34
144.   yankz
140 Doesn't he have options?
2007-08-27 17:55:53
145.   williamnyy23
138 You joke, but a forfeit would make great sense. I'd imagine a hefty fine would probably accompany one though.

With Henn getting pounded, you just know Joe is going to find away to use key members of the pen, which, of course, will result in an extra inning loss (much like the two that occurred earlier in the week).

2007-08-27 17:56:29
146.   thelarmis
i don't think winfield's # needs to be retired. i agree maris's should come back into play. it certainly would be weird seeing someone in 44. i'm down with 51 being retired. i love paulie O, but i'm not sure in the long run 21 needs to be retired. jeter and mariano, absolutely.

oh, and henn really really sucks

2007-08-27 17:56:40
147.   monkeypants
129 I read the article, and it struck me as more or less horseshit. It basically showed that they hit worse against good pitchers, which is I believe the definition of good pitching. Moreover, as I recall, the averages weren't even all that much worse--at least they didn't strike me as such.

The comment was tiresome because the team has been smashing the ball for much of the season. Mit's cherry picking to look at a few games--against good pitchers--where the team gets shut down, and say "see they're underperforming again."

BTW, the only good thing about theWaswatching article is that it was break from the typical obsessing over A-Rod or Highes velocity.

2007-08-27 17:58:34
148.   thelarmis
145 we could afford it! we already suffer from derision from all around the game. so, what the hell, let's pack it in and save the pen. i'm down with that!
2007-08-27 17:59:59
149.   yankz
147 I'm pretty sure there was a significant (not statistically speaking) difference, but unlike you, I don't care enough to look it up. No shit they don't hit as well against good pitchers- but when your own pitching sucks, you have to rely on the offense to keep you in the game. If they don't do that, they don't make the playoffs; it's that simple.
2007-08-27 18:01:20
150.   Yanks Fan in Chicago
Just got home from work and haven't looked at any of the other comments, but I assume that Moose is wearing cement shoes at the bottom of Lake Michigan and Ian Kennedy is on the Boss's private jet to Detroit as we speak to close out the last three innings of this godawful shitstom. FUCKFUCKFUCK!!!
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-08-27 18:01:30
151.   letmebefell
Anyone else think Casey was showing up the Yankees by legging out that triple?
2007-08-27 18:02:31
152.   thelarmis
i have a better left arm than damon and i'm a righty!!!
2007-08-27 18:03:08
153.   rsmith51
151 Casey rarely gets an XBH, let him have his fun.
2007-08-27 18:03:09
154.   monkeypants
146 Mariano's will be retired anyway!

133 In my opinion, retiring a player's number shoul;d be a higher honor than entry into the HOF, or used in extrordinary circumstances (like Munson b/c he died midseason). Gehrig's number was retired first because he basically played until he died. But now the practice with the Yankees seems to be to retire any Yankee who acheived some milestone or who was a loved player, even for a short period of time. They have set some unfortunately low standards, which will only put additional pressure to reture more and more numbers.

2007-08-27 18:03:13
155.   Marcus
151 No.
2007-08-27 18:03:58
156.   rsmith51
Put in all the scrubs. Rest the starters for the Sox series.
2007-08-27 18:04:21
157.   thelarmis
151 not at all. i think he slowed a step around 2nd and would've been content with a double. he saw boBBy loafing and not caring about throwing and the mayor took advantage. smart baserunning and not showing up...
2007-08-27 18:04:40
158.   thelarmis
do i hear 5 in the 5th?
2007-08-27 18:04:55
159.   williamnyy23
As you watch Henn completely implode, it makes you really wonder how Torre (and Cashman by extension for having him on the roster) could allow Henn to pitch in (and lose) two extra inning games. This game isn't the killer...the two walk off loses are what has the Yankee ship taking on water.
2007-08-27 18:04:59
160.   Marcus
Can anything but a grand slam happen in this situation?
2007-08-27 18:05:19
161.   monkeypants
149 I didn't look it up; I read it the first time around. Thanks for clarifying how that offense/pitching thing for me.
2007-08-27 18:05:21
162.   rsmith51
154 Actually compared to some other teams, the Yanks have high standards. I think the majority of the retired numbers are quite deserving.
2007-08-27 18:08:34
163.   monkeypants
162 You're probably right, compared to other teams. I was just reviewing--I'm not sold on 1, 10 (sorry Scooter), 9, 23, 44, 49 though. But that's just me.
2007-08-27 18:10:45
164.   monkeypants
159 I really hope Torre leaves Henn out there to implode for three innings (or more)--I don't care how many pitches.

Hmmm...maybe when rosters expand they can use Nieves to pitch in blow outs?

2007-08-27 18:11:31
165.   AbbyNormal821
158 I'd take that. Cut the score in half & go from there. I'd love that!
2007-08-27 18:11:51
166.   mehmattski
163 Yeah, to me, if the Yankees retire Bobby Richardson's number, they need to retire Scott Brosius' number too...
2007-08-27 18:13:44
167.   thelarmis
shelley duncan pinch running for damon? again? JD's gotta be pretty po'd...
2007-08-27 18:13:54
168.   Good4baseball
Why is Henn a Major League Baseball player? My ONLY visit to Yankee Stadium was 2 years ago and the Mets destroyed him and ruined it for me. He was back in Columbus before I was and I was on a 4 day vacation!
2007-08-27 18:14:28
169.   monkeypants
Ha-Ha...Shelley Duncan PR for Johnny Damon. Basbeball, you just can't predict this game!
2007-08-27 18:14:37
170.   rsmith51
Have any teams un-retired numbers? I would support removing some of them.
2007-08-27 18:14:55
171.   thelarmis
165 ooh, sorry abby - i meant the tiggers scoring 5 in the 5th. they got 1 in the 1st, 2 in the 2nd and 3 in the 3rd. ugh...
2007-08-27 18:16:20
172.   AbbyNormal821
171 ah, crap!!!
2007-08-27 18:16:52
173.   thelarmis
172 i know. very sad. : (
2007-08-27 18:18:15
174.   randym77
167 I doubt it. Damon's got the happiest personality I've ever seen. He's always smiling, even when the Yanks are getting spanked.

Torre's given up and is putting the scrubs in. Hopefully he puts someone in for Jeter. He looks like he needs the rest even more than Damon.

2007-08-27 18:18:47
175.   thelarmis
if pettitte never left, i betchya his # would have a chance at being retired. instead, it immediately went to donovan freakin osbourne the very next spring training...
2007-08-27 18:20:08
176.   Kered Retej
159 Am I the only one that feels a little bit bad for Henn? He's clearly not a very good pitcher, but he never should have been in the position of taking the hit on the two extra inning games. I agree that both Cashman and Torre should be held responsible for having him out there.

Now he is (if Torre can manage to do the right thing) going to be left out to dry and suck up some innings in (what was) a 7-0 blowout. I think the right move at this point is to leave Henn in there to absorb the rest of the game, even if he gives up another 10 runs, but I really feel sorry for Henn. Hopefully he will at least have some good stories to tell his grandkids someday.

2007-08-27 18:20:36
177.   Start Spreading the News
at least this means, we won't see Henn tomorrow.
2007-08-27 18:23:02
178.   monkeypants
176 It'll be sweet if they burn Joba tonight.
2007-08-27 18:25:06
179.   thelarmis
henn's pitching in the major leagues for the new york yankees, making mlb money. he's on the mound during a pennant chase pitching against the reigning AL champs. should he be here? no. am i happy he's on my team? absolutely not. do i feel sorry for him? hell fukin' no! let him pitch at least 3 and rot away during the boston series...
2007-08-27 18:25:28
180.   AbbyNormal821
would it be too much to hope for a DP here?
2007-08-27 18:25:45
181.   monkeypants
There should be a league rule banning all non-baseball people from making visits to the booth during a game.
2007-08-27 18:26:23
182.   thelarmis
then again, it's taken henn 51 pitches to get FIVE OUTS! not sure he'll make it 3 innings...
2007-08-27 18:26:44
183.   pistolpete
178 Huh?!
2007-08-27 18:27:05
184.   AbbyNormal821
Holy crap - a 1-2-3 inning...
2007-08-27 18:28:40
185.   JeremyM
According to an article on nomaas, Cashman wanted to bring up "someone" from the minors but Torre nixed it. So there's where the power is. Not that it really matters any longer, as far as I can tell.
2007-08-27 18:28:53
186.   bartap74
166 The Yankees retired Richardson's number? Did I miss something?
2007-08-27 18:30:22
187.   monkeypants
183 Sarcasm, poor attempt. Kered was saying that Torre was doing the right thing by leaving in Henn to absorb innings, but that assumes that is his actual plan.
2007-08-27 18:32:03
188.   OldYanksFan
1 Billy Martin 1951-1957
3 Babe Ruth 1920-1934
4 Lou Gehrig 1923-1939
5 Joe Di Maggio 1937-1942 1946-1951
7 Mickey Mantle 1951-1968
8 Bill Dickey 1930-1943 1946
8 Yogi Berra 1948-1963
9 Roger Maris 1960-1966
10 Phil Rizzuto 1941-1942 1946-1956
15 Thurman Munson 1970-1979
16 Whitey Ford 1953-1967
23 Don Mattingly 1984-1995
32 Elston Howard 1955-1967
37 Casey Stengel 1949-1960
44 Reggie Jackson 1977-1981

Who's 49?

2007-08-27 18:32:47
189.   thelarmis
184 straddled around 2 walks.

now, there's the 1-2-3. wrong team. : (

2007-08-27 18:34:37
190.   thelarmis
49 - uh, guidry. louisiana lightning. gator. rajun cajun!

i'm not sure maris, scooter or ellie howard to be on there...

2007-08-27 18:35:23
191.   Maniakes
Put Matsui on the mound. I seem to recall an article about his workout routine during his wrist injury mentioning that he can throw a nasty curveball (he was throwing in a bullpen to keep his arm strength up or something like that).
2007-08-27 18:35:58
192.   thelarmis
alright, henn for a 3rd frame...

oh, i know you were kidding about 49, oyf! : )

2007-08-27 18:36:09
193.   monkeypants
188 Guidry.
2007-08-27 18:38:50
194.   OldYanksFan
190 His # is not retired, is it?
"i'm not sure maris, scooter or ellie howard to be on there". Agree on all 3. And how long was Reggie a Yankee? Silly to retire his number. And his years weren't that great.
2007-08-27 18:43:17
195.   monkeypants
194 Guidry's number was retired in 2003. I agree on Jackson, but he DID lead the team in OPS four straight years--he was probably their best player over his tenure. Howard's number was retired frankly because he was the first African-American Yankee, so whatever you think about how important a factor that should be...
2007-08-27 18:43:31
196.   thelarmis
it's true on reggie, but someone earlier - shaun? randym? - said it best: it would be weird seeing someone wear that number in pinstripes...

i guess a case could be made that billy's 1 doesn't have to be retired, either. for these "in-betweeners", perhaps we can give them a "day" and a monument in the outfield park, but keep their number in circulation. would that be weird? i dunno, could be a nice tribute but not the 'be-all, end-all'...

isn't guidry's number retired? hmmm...

2007-08-27 18:44:15
197.   thelarmis
henn is making moose look good. (there's a food/hunting joke in there somewhere...)
2007-08-27 18:45:15
198.   thelarmis
do i hear a 15?
2007-08-27 18:47:00
199.   monkeypants
Well, maybe Bruney can finish the last 1.1 innings?
2007-08-27 18:49:17
200.   monkeypants
197 Let's see, moose as an appetizer, henn as the main course, and a bruney for desert?

If someone can work Edwar in, they win the prize.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-08-27 18:51:07
201.   thelarmis
200 is the prize a scoreless inning with less than 30 pitches thrown?
2007-08-27 18:51:07
202.   OldYanksFan
OK #49 fans. Daily Quiz: (NO looking up the answers)
Whats the most CGs Guidry had in a season?
Whats the most SHOs Guidry had in a season?
Whats the most IPs Guidry had in a season?

Winner gets a Thai Dinner in NH.

2007-08-27 18:52:41
203.   thelarmis
and there's the 15-spot! can we please end this now. warner robbins little league can play better than this...

new game, new series, new stadium tomorrow. won't be easy, but at least we can start over manana...

2007-08-27 18:53:18
204.   thelarmis
just...wow.
2007-08-27 18:55:50
205.   OldYanksFan
204 Don't wanna play 202 ?
2007-08-27 18:56:10
206.   yankz
This is going to be like that Cleveland game.
2007-08-27 18:57:58
207.   uburoisc
I though a walk followed by a Grand Slam, but, thankfully, it's over. Awful
2007-08-27 18:59:02
208.   OldYanksFan
That Clemens commercial is very funny!
2007-08-27 18:59:27
209.   thelarmis
205 at this point, i'm just practicing Bach on the marimba. it's way more peaceful than the game! i do love thai food though! : )
2007-08-27 18:59:59
210.   thelarmis
208 i agree. rog & deb are terrible actors though...
2007-08-27 19:00:44
211.   AbbyNormal821
206 ...didn't the Yanks go on a tear after that sucktastic loss? Or am I thinking of another suckfest that gave 'em a kick in the tush?
God, they better kick Boston's ass (esp. on Wednesday - I'm going to that game!). Not even watching this game anymore. What's the point? Too depressing.
2007-08-27 19:04:59
212.   OldYanksFan
1978 Yankees 25 3 1.74 273.2 IPs and 9 SHOs
1983 Yankees 21 9 3.42 21 CGs

9 Shut Outs? 21 Complete Games? Yowza.

2007-08-27 19:07:34
213.   thelarmis
212 i'm sure JL25and3 would've gotten that immediately! lucky for him/her, they were spared this drubbing. (and yes, i wrote "drumming" first and had to change it, lol!)
2007-08-27 19:07:36
214.   Max
This month alone, we've lost by scores of 13-9, 15-4, 12-0, 18-9, and we're now losing 16-0. One Wang start, one Clemens, one Karstens, two Mussina starts.

Can't wait to see what we get from our "next" fifth starter...Igawa? Can't be any worse.

2007-08-27 19:09:06
215.   rconn23
For some reason I'm not too upset by this loss.

I guess I hope that a demolition like this would lead to Mussina's long overdue trip to the pen. He'd be a good mop up guy.

More imporantly I hope it leads to a change in the organizational thinking of depending on shitty veteran pitchers who can't throw over 90 mph.

And even more importantly it would lead to the jettisoning of Joe Torre at the end of the season. Because it is Joe who loves those shitty veterans.

Bring on 08 with Hughes (he WILL be good), Joba the Great and Ian Kennedy. Retool the bullpen, resign A-Rod, but don't get in a bidding war to do it.

This team also needs an attitude adjustment. Cano dogs it too much and Abreu is a dog. That play tonight and his general reluctance to dive for balls mean he is a DOG! His .OBP be damned. No way you resign him for $16 million. Look for a cheaper option like Jose Guillien and use the money to retool the pen.. All fresh arms besides Mo. Every one goes except Mo.

Purge this team, I say!

2007-08-27 19:09:30
216.   thelarmis
hopefully, when the calendar flips to septiembre, we'll turn it up a notch...or three.
2007-08-27 19:11:27
217.   thelarmis
well, we all pretty much figured we'd lose the moose-verlander showdown. as jeter says, the score doesn't really matter - a loss is a loss, a win a win. it fucks w/ the pythagareon record, but whatever. it's a loss. moose will get skipped a start, maybe two. we need to show up and play to win starting tomorrow. period, end of.
2007-08-27 19:11:49
218.   yankz
WE WANT IGAWA!
2007-08-27 19:20:07
219.   yankz
Stolen from handsome sir Nick, a commenter at RAB:

Most Consecutive Starts Allowing 6 ER
Yankees Starters, Last 50 Years

'07 Mike Mussina 3
'00 David Cone 3
'96 Scott Kamieniecki 3
'85 Phil Niekro 3
'84 Ron Guidry 3
'77 Ed Figueroa 3

His blog:

http://www.nicks2cents.blogspot.com/

2007-08-27 19:23:43
220.   Mattpat11
214 I disagree.
2007-08-27 19:40:18
221.   randym77
Rosters expand in a few days. Call 'em all up. Igawa, Clippard, Kennedy, White, DeSalvo, Britton. Try 'em all, with a short leash.
2007-08-27 19:51:31
222.   Mattpat11
Matt DeSalvo. There's another name I never wanted to see again.
2007-08-27 19:54:58
223.   yankz
SG over at RLYW crunched some numbers about possible alternatives. Those are some ugly K/BB ratios, save IPK.
2007-08-27 19:55:01
224.   Zack
Ok, at this point,they HAVE to bring up Britton right? Henn can't even be a long man. Who cares if hes a lefty, good Lord!
2007-08-27 20:01:09
225.   monkeypants
221 There are 31 games left with (unfortunately) only three off days. That means Moose's turn will only come up six more times, or maybe a couple fewer if they decide to go to a semi-four man rotation for the last month. No matter who the throw in there, it will burn the BP. No need to go back to Igawa or DeSalvo, so I guess it should be Kennedy or White for the next turn, and see how thing s go from there.
2007-08-27 20:04:32
226.   monkeypants
224 Here is where converting Joba to a reliver may actually end up backfiring (though maybe not, depending on his season innings limit). I'm not sure how many high leverage situations he has actually been used in--a couple anyway. But it would have been intriguing to get, say, four or five starts out of him instead. Oh well, hindsight...
2007-08-27 20:10:25
227.   Marcus
Time for Sean Henn to go back down, and why not get rid of Villone while we're at it? Ben Kozlowski is looking like a much better option if they need a LHP. In fact, I'm surprised we haven't heard more of him coming up.

Bring up Britton and Kozlowski. And start Kei Igawa next time around

2007-08-27 20:11:58
228.   randym77
I'm thinking they'll give Moose another chance, with a quick hook if he doesn't have it.

Kay and Leiter said they'd rather see Moose again than Igawa, but I'm not so sure. Igawa's a crapshoot. At this point, Moose is just crap.

Whatever they do, it's likely going to be hard on the pen, so call up more arms to be long relievers/shadow starters.

2007-08-27 20:13:29
229.   yankz
227 Villone was DL'd
2007-08-27 20:15:55
230.   tommyl
Wow, I just saw Moose's interview (kudos to sticking around and answering all the questions). That has to be the most heartbreaking interview I've ever seen. He's so beyond disappointed in himself its sad. I can't hate the guy, he wants to win, he used to be great, he doing all he can. Its just sad to watch a career end before our eyes. I hope I'm wrong.
2007-08-27 20:19:18
231.   Marcus
229 Ah, yes. Forgot about that.
2007-08-27 20:20:30
232.   monkeypants
228 I still think they should pitch those games 'backwards.' They could start with the BP, ideally starting with a trustworthy BP armn for two or (dare I say) three innings. Then they could go to the "starter" depending on the score. In my admittedly unrealistic plan, they would need to stock the BP with relivers and shadow starters, as you suggest.
2007-08-27 20:22:36
233.   OldYanksFan
227 DL'd or DFA'd?
BBTN agreed they believe Moose is hurt. Previous to the last 3 bombs, Moose was 4-0 with a 3-something ERA. To go from THAT to THIS does indeed seem to indicate something is physically wrong.

They suggested the 15 day DL and see if he can salvage his last few starts and the PS.

226 No way will they allow Joba to pitch that many innings. And should we make the PS, he will be a key player in the BP.

I also wonder why Posada called everything outside. Afraid of HRs on missed inside pitches? Whatever, Moose (and everybody) needs to be able to pitch in. Imagine what would happen with Roger if he didn't come inside frequently.

2007-08-27 20:25:34
234.   randym77
229 He was DL'd, but only the 15-day DL. Which means he's still taking up a roster spot on the 40-man. That matters, with expanded rosters. If they get him off the 40-man, they can add someone else (Kennedy?) And use him.

The Moose interview was heartbreaking, but also a little disturbing. He kind of blamed the defense, or at least bad luck, saying they kept hitting them where "we didn't have any defense."

Dude, this is the third horrible outing in a row. It ain't just bad luck.

I think he's kinda in denial.

2007-08-27 20:28:14
235.   randym77
233 They'll probably call Wil Nieves up when rosters expand. Maybe Moose will pitch better when his personal catcher is back?
2007-08-27 20:29:20
236.   tommyl
233 Hurt or just tired and his body is breaking down. He's 38, he never had that much velocity to begin with. Its tough to keep hitters guessing with an 85mph fastball (someone has to ask Maddux how he does it). More importantly, his breaking stuff just seems to lack bite, which is also a signal of a tired arm or body. Everything's coming in slow and loopy and getting hammered.

I don't believe he's seriously hurt. As much as I like Moose, he's cranky and crotchety. He'd complain if he was hurt, its not like he is keeping a non-DL streak alive. I think he's just lost a bit here and there as the season has gone on. Also, a lot of that 4-0 was against lesser teams iirc. I think he can still fool some inexperienced lineups, but against the Sox, Tigers, Indians etc. he's just gonna get hit hard.

Give up on Joba to the rotation. He has a cap of 30 more innings for the entire season. Its not gonna happen. Also, his velocity will go down a bit (he was mid-90s as a starter, he started hitting 98+ when he was switched to relief), and while that slider is amazing, his tertiary pitches are not as well developed yet.

2007-08-27 20:31:05
237.   JeremyM
236 Well, he did also point out the great plays in the first.
2007-08-27 20:31:32
238.   JeremyM
237 That was for 234 .
2007-08-27 20:32:24
239.   monkeypants
233 I though Joba's limit was 130 innings. He pitched a little less than 90 INN in MiL this year, leaving him 40 INN, or eight starts of 5 innings, or six starts at 6/7 innings. Would you rather have Joba taking the last six "Moose starts" of the year, or use him out of the BP (where so far 4 of his 7 appearances have come with leads of 4+ runs)?

You gotta make the playoffs before a player can be a valuable member of teh squad.

Anyway, I said that this was all just musing from hindsight. Obviously when they shifted Joba to the pen they did not envision that Mussina waould totally implode; it would be unreasonable to ask that the FO anticipate the way the last two weeks have played out and thus order all of their MiL pitching around them.

2007-08-27 20:32:25
240.   tommyl
234 I didn't get that sense. I think he was saying some of the hits were bloops or grounders in the hole. Looking at the highlights, he's right. He also said he couldn't do anything right, wasn't helping the team and let everyone down. Then he said he's never pitched this badly in his entire life and doesn't even know how to describe the feeling. He is definitely not ducking or laying blame around, I think he was just expressing his frustration looking back that if only such and such grounder was hit at Jeter instead of in the hole then maybe he could have gotten out of the 2nd or 3rd and the game would start rolling from there. I've been there myself in various sports, I can sympathize.
2007-08-27 20:34:47
241.   tommyl
239 I remember them saying it was 30 innings from here on out. I also don't think its a good idea to jerk the kid around. He's converted to relief for now, and all of a sudden they want to flip him back? I'm not saying its completely wrong, but its definitly risky.
2007-08-27 20:35:05
242.   monkeypants
236 "Give up on Joba to the rotation. He has a cap of 30 more innings for the entire season. Its not gonna happen."

Never said it would; never said it even could at this point.

2007-08-27 20:39:35
243.   monkeypants
241 I'm not suggesting that they jerk him around or flip him back. Look at what I wrote--I said that in hindsight they may regret having converted him to a reliever in the first place, since 1] his relief appearances do not seem to have been decisive (he has not been used in many high leverage situations, so to some degree his electric stuff has been 'wasted,' albeit fun to watch), and 2] he would still have been an available option in the MiL to replace the corpse of Mussina.

But, as you point out (and to which I agree), that bridge has been burnt. And, as I said, one cannot really blame the organization for not forseeingweeks in advance the exact circumstances of the starting rotation, including to total implosion of Mussina.

2007-08-27 20:40:16
244.   randym77
236 I agree. Leiter was talking about that yesterday. He said that a big league starting pitcher needs at least three pitches he can rely on. He said Hughes only has 2, and that's why he gets in trouble.

237 Yes, I know. Moose is good about stuff like that. He said all the right things. But I think his real thoughts kind of slipped out here and there.

I'm kind of reminded of Randy Johnson last year. It was clear to everyone except him that he had to make some changes, because his stuff wasn't what it used to be.

2007-08-27 20:41:40
245.   tommyl
242 Yeah, that was more in a general comment reply than to anything you or anyone else specifically said. I've just been hearing it a lot around NYC and on the airwaves. If they did, and capped him at 5 innings, even if they have the lead, who pitches the remaining 4? You'd be burning through a BP (a Joba-less pen at that) every 5th day gauranteed. And yes, they are doing that a bit now, but they are burning through Sean Henn and Brian Bruney.
2007-08-27 20:42:45
246.   tommyl
243 I think we agree, we're both just a bit tired and frustrated. No worries.
2007-08-27 20:45:30
247.   monkeypants
245 246 Cool. Games like tonight do this, huh? Yikes.
2007-08-27 20:46:23
248.   tommyl
244 Right, take 2-3mph off Joba's fastball which seems fair if he has to conserve some more strength and based on his miL numbers. That slider becomes a bit less devestating. The 3rd time through the order, will Manny Ramirez still be fooled? Maybe, but its not the lights out you have with him as a reliever.

Now next year, beginning of the season, let the kid work into his other pitches a bit more and he'll have a few rocky starts to start off with but he'll be good after that.

I could be wrong here, he could just be so good that he'll dominate right now as a starter. But hell, even Clemens wasn't that good his first year and Clemens had some of the best stuff in history when he was under 30.

2007-08-27 20:54:08
249.   randym77
Seems like we were talking about this last year. There's a school of thought that holds that the pen is the best way to introduce a young pitcher to the big leagues.

Who knows, maybe Hughes would be as amazing as Joba, if he were in the pen, too.

2007-08-27 20:56:39
250.   tommyl
247 Dude, I played pickup soccer, got home at 8:15, watched 10 minutes, took a shower and then watched "The Pickup Artist" on VH1. By the time I flipped back it was 10-0. What's funny is that this morning I thought of TiVoing the game, but with Moose going I thought it was a better idea not to.
Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2007-08-27 21:02:00
251.   monkeypants
249 Yeah, we were. i wonder, though, if it isn't better to introduce young pitchers via the BP by using them for two or three innings every few days, so that their work still mimics the pattern of a starter--rather than using them as one inning specialists.

For example, Santana was used as a part time starter reliever in 2000-2003; his appearances/innings were: 30/86, 15/43, 27/108, 45/158. So he was averaging around 3 or more innings/appearance when he was young.

2007-08-27 21:03:25
252.   monkeypants
Angels pounding the M's, by the way. Pulling for the Angels, and I feel sorta dirty.
2007-08-27 21:08:01
253.   Mattpat11
234 Ultimately, it meant nothing, but Bobby Abreu's effort tonight was really sort of horrendous.

Of course, when you feel buried, it might be easier to be lazy out there.

2007-08-27 21:13:58
254.   yankz
252 I almost wish Seattle goes on a tear and buries the Angels, letting the Yankees sneak into the wild card and avoid a quick 1st round elimination to the rally monkeys.
2007-08-27 21:21:53
255.   tommyl
The thing with Hughes is that he pitches well and then makes a couple of really bad mistakes. That's just part of the learning process, though I'd like to see him get back to his GO/AO ratio he had in the minors.
2007-08-27 21:27:14
256.   tommyl
252 Any port in a storm
2007-08-27 21:29:19
257.   BklynBmr
One of sicker sidebars of this mess is the fact that Steve Phillips will start to sound like he knows what he's talking about...

This has to be the most frustrating club since '02. By nature, I'm usually one of the last rats to jump ship, and I ain't close yet. But — I am pinning my hopes on this team busting out one of their 'we'll never lose again' rolls precisely when it counts. To grab the WC and stay hot for at least two series.

Lord knows their 'we'll never win again' look has been too familiar and coming at the exact wrong times lately.

I don't want hear 'we can't beat good teams, win close ones, win on the road', etc. We turned those numbers around for a bit there and can do it again. This is a streaky team. It'll come down to the direction of their final one.

Let's go, Yanks!

2007-08-27 21:43:01
258.   Mattpat11
257 Two series?
2007-08-27 21:53:41
259.   Vandelay Industries
257 I agree. I am not ready to throw in the towel quite yet. However, it is decision time for the Yankees. They will either do anything it takes to win this year, meaning starting Joba and using the 24 year old Kennedy out of the pen, or reverse that, depending on Kennedy's performance. He is older, but we don't know what he has for the big leagues yet.

It also means starting Giambi every day at 1B. It also means calling up Britton and going with no lefties in the pen. We folks who thought dumping Myers over Villone don't look so silly now do we?

If Kennedy can start effectively, I might move Joba into the rotation and move Clemens to the pen. I think Roger could handle that very easily, and would likely be very effective. That would help the bullpen, which would be worse than it is now. However, there isn't anything a good bullpen can do if you are out of the game in the third inning. I would DL Moose and see what is wrong. Moving him to the pen solves nothing.

The Yankees have some decisions to make.

2007-08-27 22:00:17
260.   monkeypants
"We folks who thought dumping Myers over Villone don't look so silly now do we?"

Nope. It's not an either/or--they should have dumped them both.

2007-08-27 22:12:44
261.   BklynBmr
258 Yup. WC + two series = World Series. I'll take my chances after that. If they stop f*cking around and start focusing, it'll be a good September.

Wild Cards are increasingly popular ways to win World Series, Super Bowls, etc.

Just gotta get hot right about then. This club has in it 'em. Or you think otherwise?

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