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Bombs Away
2007-07-31 21:11
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

It didn't take long for things to get out of hand for the White Sox last night. Mike Mussina set the Sox down in order on ten pitches in the top of the first thanks to a great running catch at the 385 ft. sign by Melky Cabrera and three called strikes on Jim Thome.

In the bottom of the first, Johnny Damon hit an 0-2 pitch to third base which spun away from Josh Fields, forcing him to reach for the ball and giving Damon time to reach with an infield single. On an 0-2 count to the next batter, Derek Jeter appeared to go around on a check swing, but was ruled not to have swung, robbing Contreras of a strikeout. In the previous inning, Thome had complained to home plate umpire Phil Cuzzi when strike two from Mussina appeared to be a bit high, then, after taking a pitch on the inside corner for a ball, was called out on another high pitch that he though was ball four. When Jeter's swing was declared checked by first-base ump Tom Hallion, White Sox pitching coach Don Cooper and manager Ozzie Guillen started arguing from the dugout. Phil Cuzzi, who has a reputation for being an instigator, responded to the White Sox's taunts and, before anyone knew what was happening, Cuzzi tossed Guillen from the game.

Guillen came out onto the field to get his money's worth from Cuzzi, repeatedly, and colorfully imploring him to do his job at home plate rather than get in the middle of a disagreement between the White Sox bench and the first base ump, but it was all just bottle rockets before the real fireworks.

Given a stay of execution, Jeter singled up the middle and, two pitches later, Bobby Abreu crushed a home run into the upper deck in left. After Alex Rodriguez flied out to deep right, Hideki Matsui added solo shot into section 41 of the right field bleachers to make it 4-0 Yankees. Jorge Posada added a double before Contreras was able to get the last two outs on fly balls to left center.

Mike Mussina gave up a three-run home run to Juan Uribe in the top of the second to make the game momentarily close at 4-3 as Contreras set the Yankees down in order in the bottom of the second, striking out Melky Cabrera and Johnny Damon along the way. Mussina returned serve with a nine-pitch, all-strikes top of the third, and the Yankees broke it open in the bottom half, driving Contreras from the game with a three-run homer by Robinson Cano. Knuckleballing relief pitcher Charlie Haeger was greeted by an error by Juan Uribe, who booted an Andy Phillips grounder, then recovered only to have the webbing tear out of Paul Konerko's glove allowing Phillips to reach base. That was followed by a two-run home run by Melky Cabrera that made it 9-3 Yanks after three.

From there things just got silly. Jorge Posada hit a two-run homer off Haeger in the fourth. Matsui added a two-run jack off Gavin Floyd in the sixth. With Floyd taking one for the team, Johnny Damon hit his first home run since June 26 in the seventh. Two batters later, defensive replacement Shelley Duncan followed with a solo shot of his own that set the final score at 16-3.

In addition to being Duncan's fourth home run in 21 major league at-bats, Duncan's tater was the Yankees' eighth of the game, tying the franchise record set on June 28, 1939 when Joe DiMaggio and Babe Dahlgren each hit two and Bill Dickey, Joe Gordon, Tommy Henrich, and George Selkirk each hit one. Duncan was also the seventh Yankee to homer in the game, tying an American League record held by three other teams. The Yankees have now scored 54 runs in their last three games in Yankee Stadium. I don't know if that's any kind of record, but it sure sounds like one.

Alex Rodriguez, who entered the game with 499 career home runs, did not hit a home run. Nor did he get a hit. He did, however, hit a lot of warning-track bombs, one of which Jermaine Dye made a great catch on while running face-first into the wall in right. After his last at-bat, Rodriguez gave his bat to a very excited kid in a blue sleeveless shirt behind the Yankee dugout. That bat won't make it to the Hall of Fame, but the next one off the rack just might.

Hidden behind all those homers was a strong performance by the Yankee hurlers who allowed no runs beyond that Uribe homer. Together Mussina, Kyle Farnsworth (who was booed when announced in the seventh inning and responded by retiring the side on eight pitches, six strikes), Mike Myers, and Sean Henn allowed eight hits, walked none, struck out eight, and threw 84 of 122 pitches for strikes (69 percent). By comparison, Contreras allowed seven runs on eight hits and a walk in just 2 2/3 innings.

Comments (217)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2007-07-31 22:44:35
1.   Mattpat11
Ozzie on the incident

"From 1985 to now, I don't see any umpire (disrespect) players and managers the way that guy does. That's something you don't tolerate as a manager. I see this guy do it over and over. It's time for someone to step it up. … If they're willing to fine me for what I say, I'm willing to pay that money because I called him a lot of things I'm not supposed to say."

The only thing I disagree with is I'm not sure Cuzzi is the worst. The Bucknor's and Angel Herandez's of the world might be worse. But Ozzies point on umpires in general stands.

2007-07-31 23:30:48
2.   seamus
Lots of games went our way tonight. picked up games on bosox, indians, tigers, and mariners. Good to see.

I'm kind of bummed I missed the Bronx bombers tonight. Sounds like we really kicked ass. Maybe we'll get to see our new guy tomorrow.

2007-07-31 23:37:44
3.   seamus
I just read about Joba's passport issue. Why does Joba need a passport to join the Yanks in Toronto but not SWB in Ottawa?
2007-08-01 04:46:05
4.   rbj
So, anyone play "Everytime the Yankees hit a homer, do a shot" last night?

What a fun game.

2007-08-01 05:01:48
5.   RIYank
4 Yeah, I hear the Mount Sinai alcohol poisoning unit was stretched to its limit last night.

3 Uh.
The truth is you don't really need a passport to return from Canada. But, yeah, hmm.

2007-08-01 05:09:48
6.   Knuckles
That was a fun one last night. I can't believe Duncan has only 21 AB's?!?! If he's hit a dinger every 5th at-bat, surely even Torre is smart enough to try and ride that hot streak a little bit. Looking fwd to seeing what Betemit can do.

I was running out of ways to say home run last night.

1 homer
2 dinger
3 bomb
4 roundtripper
5 tater
6 jack
7 shot
8 longball

2007-08-01 05:36:36
7.   Dimelo
6 Who do you sit in favor of Duncan? The only person who is not hot is ARod. Do you want to sit ARod in favor of Duncan?
2007-08-01 05:46:01
8.   Raf
Actually, it looked like that guy in the glasses snatched the bat away from the kid. I could be wrong, tho...

FWIW, the Yanks could go through a company like CIBT and have Joba's passport in less than a week. Shouldn't be that big a deal

2007-08-01 05:47:15
9.   monkeypants
7 Andy Phillips has been hitting RHP much better than LHP. They could try to get Duncan a start against a lefty. I'm also not entirely sold on the JD's resurrection, but he gotten a bunch of hits lately. Yeah, you're right. Unless they face the odd lefty starter, there really isn't anyone Duncan should displace.

The beauty of it is that's a good thing! Certainly much better than having a starting nine with gaping offensive holes at multiple positions.

2007-08-01 05:48:27
10.   Raf
3 Because the Yanks are travelling by air. SWB takes the bus across the border
2007-08-01 05:49:31
11.   NJYankee41
8 I thought that too and it made me mad. But then they showed the kid again and he had the bat and looked quite happy. Then in the replay you could see the guy reaching for it and pushing it toward the kid. So that was good to see.
2007-08-01 05:51:33
12.   Shaun P
7 I don't think Duncan can start now, except against a lefty (in place of Damon or, if a really tough lefty, Abreu), but I sure hope he stays and Cairo goes when Giambi comes back. IMHO, Betemit makes Cairo completely expendable.
2007-08-01 05:57:15
13.   3rd gen yankee fan
Keep booing Farns. Maybe that's what he needs. And it sure feels good!
2007-08-01 06:24:50
14.   ChrisS
9 I'm not sold on it either, considering that in the last 7 games, he's still got an OPS of less than .750, and since in July total, he was at .679 ...

Well after typing all that out it looks like ESPN's splits page for Damon is all out of sorts. Don't use it.

Using BR, he's sitting at a .737 OPS for July, which includes this two week hot streak.

2007-08-01 06:26:59
15.   OldYanksFan
Is July a hot month?
Top 5 AL Hit Leaders:

Robinson Cano 42
Hideki Matsui 39
Melky Cabrera 39
Derek Jeter 38
Bobby Abreu 36

Bring on the Indians.

2007-08-01 06:39:24
16.   vockins
15 Holy crap.
2007-08-01 06:41:48
17.   OldYanksFan
According to Bronx Block/Off the Facade
Chris Britton: is coming off of an abdominal strain but showed what he was capable of last year with the Orioles.
His last appearance was Jul 19, where he posted - 3 hits, 2 ERs, 1 BB, 0 Ks in 1 IP.
So maybe this is not why he has not been called up in the last 2 weeks. Granted, he should have been up earlier.
2007-08-01 06:47:57
18.   weeping for brunnhilde
Hey Team, just checking in. I lost my internet for a few days there.

I will be going to my first game of the season in the next couple of days, though, so yay!

Btw, why is it August 1 and Farnsworth is still on the team? Why not have thrown him in with Proctor?

I'll miss good old EDSP, btw. He's a decent fellow and capable of pitching decently.

Enjoy the heat, all!

2007-08-01 06:51:58
19.   Cliff Corcoran
11 The old guy grabbed the bat but Alex pointed at the kid as if to say, "no, it's for him" and thankfully the old guy didn't argue and handed the bat to the kid.

17 Note the letters "DL" next to Britton's name on the sidebar.

2007-08-01 06:52:35
20.   OldYanksFan
Check out: http://mvn.com/milb-yankees/2007/07/31/cashman-believes-in-the-farm/
Anyone who says Cashman is not learning is dead wrong. Basically, 2 years ago, this article would be posted by Deadspin as satire, while now it is our future.

Passing on Zito and Meche, now on Gagne, and a number of other moves has taken real balls. It's easy for the Yankees to go out and buy a big name. But that has not worked for us in the past, and has depleted the farm.

This management is a 180d turn from just 2 years ago, and I believe, the foundation and philosophy of our next dynasty.

Now the Cashman haters are free to throw up all of Cashmans 'bad deals' over the last 5 years.

2007-08-01 07:01:37
21.   seamus
20 why limit to last five years? When I was 12, he traded me his Mattingly rookie card for a Canseco rookie card. He just doesn't get it...
2007-08-01 07:27:07
22.   pistolpete
One correction Cliff:

"Given a stay of execution, Jeter singled up the middle and, two pitches later, Bobby Abreu crushed a home run into the upper deck in left."

I believe it was right field. In fact, I know it was - I saw the first few innings of the replay game on YES as well.

2007-08-01 07:30:26
23.   monkeypants
22 I wondered about that, but instead of checking, I chose to enjoy the fantasy of Abreu belting a ball the other way into the third deck. Now you had to go and ruin it for me.
2007-08-01 07:33:02
24.   pistolpete
23 Heh, sorry.
2007-08-01 07:34:59
25.   OldYanksFan
21 You believe Cashman was calling the shots pre-2004? George and TB had nothing to do with the team direction?

IIRC, Cashman was ready to walk in 2006. In order to keep him, it was announced in 2006 that Cashman (finally) had full authority for running the team. In terms of the FO and the farm, things have been going in a very different direction since then.

I am not concerned withthe who/what/where/when/whys of the past. I am concerned with the future. Do you like and support the direction (aside from Torre related issues) the FO has taken in the last 2 years?

2007-08-01 07:39:05
26.   seamus
20 dude. i made a joke about baseball cards.
2007-08-01 07:39:21
27.   seamus
26 meant to respond to 25
2007-08-01 07:41:39
28.   JohnnyC
25 What Torre related issues? How can a man who's taken his team to 11 straight playoffs, 6 World Series, and won 4 rings be an issue? I say abolish all term limits for Mr. Torre. The people "spitting on his Mercedes" can't carry his jock.
2007-08-01 07:42:53
29.   seamus
ugh, sorry for piecemeal response, but I agree with you anyhow. Cashman has been entirely consistent about his goals ever since taking over. And I was a big fan of unloading certain loud mouths and attitude salaries for prospects.
2007-08-01 07:53:48
30.   Mattpat11
20 It took balls to pass on Gil Meche?
2007-08-01 07:58:16
31.   Bama Yankee
22 Maybe Cliff was watching the game in a mirror during that homerun...

Actually, watching a baseball game in a mirror is kind of weird. Sometimes when I am brushing my teeth at night I catch a glimpse in the mirror of the game on the bedroom tv. It is very strange to watch a lefthanded Mo or a righthanded Myers. And something about a lefty Farnsworth reminds me of John Rocker...

The weirdest thing is to watch a lefty Jeter or Cano throw someone out who is running up the third base line...

2007-08-01 08:02:05
32.   yankz
17 Good god.
2007-08-01 08:04:40
33.   yankz
Um, I meant to reference 15.
2007-08-01 08:20:43
34.   mehmattski
31 Gary Cooper knows how you feel.
2007-08-01 08:26:46
35.   tommyl
Woah, seems the rest of the Yankee's front office agrees with the Banter.

http://tinyurl.com/3czb5l

This article would be hilarious if it weren't so true. The manager is literally standing in the way of this team.

2007-08-01 08:27:29
36.   mehmattski
5 From the US State Department website:

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html

"The U.S. Departments of State and Homeland Security announced Friday, June 8, that U.S. citizens traveling to Canada, Mexico, Bermuda or countries in the Caribbean region, who have applied for, but not yet received passports, can re-enter the United States by air."

This seems to me that US Citizens will eventually need a passport to return from Canada, Mexico, Bermuda, and the Carribean. The good news for Joba is that he only has to have proof of application, and doesn't have to wait 11 weeks to get his passport like the rest of us.

2007-08-01 08:28:35
37.   monkeypants
31 So true. When I was in grad school we used to hang out at this greasy spoon that stayed open late and served booze. Nothing like scambled eggs and beer at 2 am. Anyway, they had mirrors running along the walls, and depending on where I was sitting in one of our customary booths, I would often end up watching games in reverse (the reflection of the dinky TVs above the bar). I actually saw Boone's HR in reverse, because I couldn't bring myself to watch the end of that game--too nerve wracking.
2007-08-01 08:33:06
38.   JL25and3
30 Balls may be the wrong word, but he is the kind of guy the Yankees would have signed in the past. That's how they ended up with your favorite pitcher, Voldemort.
2007-08-01 08:37:20
39.   tommyl
38 Wait, we're calling Pavano Voldemort now? I would think Wormtail is a much more apt description, you know, changes into a rat, runs and hides...
2007-08-01 08:38:12
40.   Raf
36 You are correct, we will need passports to return from those destinations. IIRC, the date was extended, because a lot of people were unprepared.

Entry from Canada is a bit more difficult now, it used to be that a driver's license was sufficient.

In Joba's and the Yankees' case, all they would need to do is to go through a passport service like CIBT (http://www.us.cibt.com/ - my company uses them) and they could get a passport in less than a week.

2007-08-01 08:39:05
41.   RIYank
36 Yeah, they announced that hence forth you'd need a passport, and that's what started the passport office nightmare, so they revised that rule. But eventually you'll need a passport to return from Canada or Mexico, at least by plane.
Anyway, Joba will be an asset when the Yanks play Bermuda.
2007-08-01 08:40:44
42.   RIYank
39 Well, they share the designation, "He Who Shall Not Be Named." (Or is that "must"?)
2007-08-01 08:42:27
43.   RIYank
40 I know people who tried one of those services (I have no idea if it was that one), with disastrous consequences. Weeks later, the passport office claimed not to have received payment; or that they never got the old passport with the renewal request.
2007-08-01 08:42:53
44.   yankz
42 He Who Must Not Be Named. You Know Who for short.

Pavano's no Voldemort. Not badass enough. Wormtail is more fitting, he'd do anything to save his own skin and get ahead.

2007-08-01 08:44:46
45.   Shaun P
38 That Meche was essentially the last 'name' pitcher of any kind available at the time almost would have made him a prime Yankee free agent signing, once upon a time (I'm thinking late 80s). Of course that was when it was impossible to promote from within, because all the promising young pitchers had been traded away.

Watching the Bronx is Burning last night, I kept thinking how lucky we are now, to not have to deal with George's meddlesome interference and all battles fought through the tabloids. The times sure have changed.

2007-08-01 08:45:43
46.   bp1
44 Given that Pavano no longer has a starring role, it's more likely he's one of those characters you see when the credits role that have no name at all, just a description, like "Young man with arm in sling", or "Dark Haired Man with Scowl on Face".

Ah - Pavano jokes. I just love 'em.

2007-08-01 08:46:21
47.   yankz
Check out LoHud- Santana seems to be very unhappy in MN. If only he were a FA this year.
2007-08-01 08:46:35
48.   Shaun P
39 44 True, but I think the logic was that we'd all be happier if no one ever used his name again.
2007-08-01 08:47:43
49.   yankz
46 Money. How about "Scowling figure nursing ass in background"?
2007-08-01 08:47:51
50.   Yankee Fan In Boston
46 or "young man with ass in a sling"

47 careful. don't jinx anything.

Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2007-08-01 08:53:58
51.   Shaun P
47 Can't blame him. Terry Ryan has potentially frittered away at least one World Series appearance because he refuses to trade for the bat(s) his team has needed since, oh, 2001.

Look at their lineup. How can a team that runs out black holes every day at 3B, SS, LF, and DH, and who's best bench player is either the BUC or Jason Tyner(!), ever expect to win anything? (And when Mauer rests, that's 5 holes, though Redmond is a pretty good BUC.) All the pitching in the world isn't enough to save a lineup like that.

2007-08-01 08:54:28
52.   JohnnyC
Considering the Twins are still trying to get a new stadium deal passed, the chances of them auctioning off Santana this off-season or letting him go FA after 2008 are microscopic. However, should they fail to get a stadium deal done...but I wouldn't count on it. The commissioner would just threaten to contract the team again, thus blackmailing Minnesotans into heaving their tax dollars into another boondoggle for Selig's evil empire.
2007-08-01 08:57:14
53.   JohnnyC
51 Jason Tyner's a first round talent, doncha know. That inestimable judge of talent, Steve Phillips, who yesterday opined that there were a million players like Melky out there, tossed the Mets' first round draft choice in 1998 on that powerless dude.
2007-08-01 09:01:09
54.   JL25and3
53 The thing I remember best about tyner from when he was with TB: he has the worst arm I've ever seen on a major league outfielder. Yes, I've seen Johnny Damon play many a time. Tyner couldn't get it halfway in from left field.
2007-08-01 09:09:26
55.   Shaun P
54 (Forgive me).

Bernie Williams could walk into a major league stadium right now and throw the ball farther than Jason Tyner.

53 I get a lot of pleasure out of hearing ESPN's chief "analyst" make statements that show him to be a fool. Why they continue to employ him is beyond me.

2007-08-01 09:11:26
56.   yankz
52 Read the article, it definitely appears like Santana won't re-sign after 08. At this point I'd guess that if the Twins aren't contending next year they'll trade him for a monster package. I hope the Yanks don't trade for him but instead sign him at the end of next year.
2007-08-01 09:12:14
57.   yankz
55 Since when have they been able to tell the difference between good and bad analysis?
2007-08-01 09:13:19
58.   OldYanksFan
35 Tom... please tell us the number of sources the author used and who they are. Direct quotes are applicable too.

While I don't know what is true, as I read that article (he published much of that article last week... so he's getting lots of milake out of it), I would have to think if its true, the following might also be true.

1) Torre owns 51% of the Yankees
2) Torre can't be fired
3) Torre doesn't listen to anything anyone else in the FO says, including George, Cashman, Stick, etc
4) Cashman tried to get Torre fired last year, as Torre is hurting the team and therefore Cashman's rep and job security
5) Torre, by definition, works in a vacuum and is accountable to no one.
6) Author Dan Graziano's primary motivation is not to sell newspapers and create controversy, but get the plain, honest truth out to the general public (just like all the other esteemed sports writers)

The Yankee's are what, a billion dollars corporation? If what he says is true, then the Yankees must be the poorest run organization in history.

2007-08-01 09:19:40
59.   yankz
The article, at least to me, implies that it's more of a sudden epiphany that Torre can't handle a roster, brought about by the Edwar, Ensberg, Bradley, etc. scenarios.

And the only subpoint in 58 that needs to be true is 2). Torre can't be fired because at least four of the team leaders (Jeter, Mo, Posada, and Rocket) would revolt.

And it's not that Torre's stopping them from making moves. They've just realized there's no point. Why call up Edwar when Joe will pitch Proctor no matter what?

2007-08-01 09:22:35
60.   tommyl
58 Are you kidding me? I've seen quotes from Cashman in various books such as Fishbowl say that he thought Torre was the manager for the team but that his handling of the BP and rookies was poor. Now its standing in the way of the team. You honestly think Cash and the other decision makers called up Edwar to have him not pitch? or brought up Duncan to sit on the bench after hitting a HR every 5 ABs or so?

Yes, Graziano is trying to sell papers, he's also quoting people. Take it with a bit of salt, but the sentiment is there.

2007-08-01 09:30:13
61.   yankz
I think it's hilarious that Farnsworth came into a laugher after complaining about underuse.
2007-08-01 09:32:30
62.   YankeeInMichigan
Interesting musings from Goldman regarding Betemit's role: http://tinyurl.com/24rlqm

To summarize:
- Betemit is a switch hitter who is much stronger against righties. Phillips is a right hander is is stronger against righties.
- Betemit fields as well as Cairo and hits better. But Cairo is Joe's boy. He also is a better pinch-running choice, which they'll need once Giambi is back.
- Perhaps Damon can be that pinch runner. But he's the "leadoff hitter."

2007-08-01 09:35:52
63.   mehmattski
58 Re: 1) Yeah, but if the Yankees don't win the World series this year, The Judge gets all of Torre's share.

(The opportunities to reference that movie in the last week have been extraordinarily high.)

2007-08-01 09:37:00
64.   OldYanksFan
45 I was a young man and a big fan during those years. I loved my Yankees, but was chagrinned and embarrassed by them. When George was convicted I literally danced with joy! I mean I was shuffling! The Man Who Was Shitting On Yankee History was gone!

I was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bummed when they let him back in, but fortunately he was slowly growing up little by little.

Look at who and how many managers we had from 1984 to 1995, and do the same for 1996 to 2007. It may be pure coincidence, but this is why I am a big Torre supporter.

With George and Billy, and Reggie and Thurman, and George and Billy, and George and Billy again and again, I was a fan from a distance. Winning and losing on the field took a back seat to the 'Show' off the field.
We were a punchline. A Joke. A Freak show.

If you didn't start following the Yankees until the 90's, I just don't think you can understand the impact Torre has had, not just on the team, but on the whole organization, and everyones perception of it.

2007-08-01 09:38:50
65.   JL25and3
58 Two comments about that article - which I also thought was nonsense.

First, it's not true that Joba Chamberlain is the only big acquisition the Yankees will make. They're also picking up Phil Hughes and Jason Giambi - not a bad haul for a stretch run.

Second, as I've said before: if Torre kept them from getting Milton Bradley or Morgan Ensberg, then more power to him. He was right.

2007-08-01 09:39:44
66.   yankz
62 My favorite part: "From Hideki Irabu to Contreras to Kei Igawa, it's just difficult to get something good when you skip the normal player development process."

Will they ever learn?

Steven Goldman is my easily one of my favorite baseball writers out there.

2007-08-01 09:40:34
67.   thurmtheman
53 55 What an idiot that "expert analyst" is. I remember once a few years ago on the radio a caller started to blast him for his stupidity and he makes a banging sound and says "you here that, it's an NL Championship ring." All the while I'm yelling at the radio that he should find Bobby Valentine and service his manhood for getting to the WS with an outfield of Agbayani/Payton/Perez. Everytime he talks about how the Red Sox can't be caught I feel a little better about the Yanks chances.
2007-08-01 09:42:32
68.   OldYanksFan
59 I'm curious...
"... implies that it's more of a sudden epiphany that Torre can't handle a roster".

Torre hasn't changed his act much in the last 5 years. Weaver, Brown, etc. So it just took this long for the Billion Dollar brain trust to catch on?

"Torre can't be fired because at least four of the team leaders (Jeter, Mo, Posada, and Rocket) would revolt"

Why? These 4 guys as much as anyone burn with desire to win. These guys know a lot more about what is REALLY going on then we do. If Torre was costing the team wins, especially in the PS, why would these guys support him?

2007-08-01 09:47:10
69.   williamnyy23
64 I first starting following the Yankees religiously around 1983, so I got in the ground floor of those tumultuous times you referenced. As a result, I definitely appreciate the stability and credibility that Torre has brought to the organization. Having said that, I think it has been time to move on for at least two years, and sincerely hope this will be Joe's last campaign. While instability can be a bad thing, so too can an entrenched philosophy. The Yankees need to find a younger and more creative manager who, like Joe, can stick around for another 10 years. Holding onto Torre for the sake of stability is counterproductive at this point. He has to bring more to the table.
2007-08-01 09:48:05
70.   Schteeve
37 I was at that game, i thought i was going to throw up when that ball left his bat. The scene in the street outside the Stadium for at least an hour after the games was surreal. I will never forget it.
2007-08-01 09:49:28
71.   OldYanksFan
60 Who is he quoting? How do you know? Remember when Torre was quoted as ARod being wrong over the "HA!" incident?

If Cash is upset with Torre, why doesn't he talk to him? They are friends? Torre knowns he owes his job to Cashman. Why is Torre SO powerful and Cashman et al so weak?

Look. It may be true. It's certainly correct about Joe's modus operandi (sp?). But's he's ONE guy, who has been on thin ice for 3 years now. Girardi is in NY. Mattingly is in NY. If they think Joe is costing them the PS, HOW can they possibly let him continue?

Why did Cashman fight so hard to keep him last October? Because of Jeter and Posada?

2007-08-01 09:53:16
72.   ChrisS
I just made a dinner bet that Joba will outperform Scott Proctor down the stretch in K:BB, ERA, and Whip.

I'm thinking surf & turf.

2007-08-01 09:56:10
73.   Shaun P
65 On your second point - in the specific, you may be right that it was good the Yanks did not acquire Bradley and Ensberg. But the general point still stands. There are just certain guys Torre won't use, whatever the reason, even if the option is a worthless "experienced veteran". (T-ball Long broke this camel's back last year.)

The problem is that this team can't win by using only 21 of the 25 available guys - especially given the team's problems hitting left-handed pitching, and the wear on the bullpen from early in the year. Torre really needs to use every guy on the roster, but he probably won't, because he almost never does.

2007-08-01 09:58:44
74.   tommyl
71 Cashman argued to keep him, because he felt his strengths outweighed his weaknesses. He may not feel that way anymore.

And 68 are you implying that no one else on the team burns with the same desire to win? Because I'd have to disagree with you there. Damon and Melky have literally run into walls. I'm pretty sure Moose would like a ring before he retires. A-Rod seems to want to win pretty badly. I'm certain that the kids just brought up want to win (and keep playing) pretty badly.

As for why to keep him now. It can be argued (and I might agree) that at this stage in the season getting rid of Torre is counterproductive and leaves the next manager with an impossible task. Better to start off next year fresh and have Torre gracefully retire so there is no resentment from the entrenched vets.

2007-08-01 09:59:27
75.   NJYankee41
This is inching toward another all-day Torre/Cashman good/bad debate. Please say it ain't so.

72 How bout Mendy's? The have the best pea soup, the best!

2007-08-01 09:59:58
76.   OldYanksFan
69 I agree that it might be Torre's time to go. However, the support he gets from Cashman and the teammates that know him best, seem to indicate he still has value to the team.

I just don't know and can't say. It's a complicated decision and I (we) know so little about the real dynamics and needs that drive this boat.

I have heard over and over again from other managers and analysts that the in-game part of managing is the smallest and easiest part (although why would Torre appear to be so bad at it if it's easy). And even here at the Banter, many had admitted that many other managers make the same kind of moves Joe does.

And many other team blogs are critical of their managers. Francona took a lot of shit... although not know when the Sox are winning.

I respect the guy. I just don't know if he is a positive or negative influence on us winning.

2007-08-01 10:01:24
77.   yankz
74 Thanks, sounds about right to me.

I'm not one of the "Torre's an idiot asshole who must go and should have gone after 03" fellows. It was actually a Goldman article a few weeks ago that convinced me that he's definitely declining as a manager.

73 "T-Ball" remains one of my favorite nicknames ever.

2007-08-01 10:02:06
78.   OldYanksFan
73 How many ABs did T-ball Long get? Torre/the Yankees threw shit against the wall. It didn't stick.
2007-08-01 10:02:13
79.   tommyl
73 Exactly. Against lefties, why not sit Damon and play Duncan? He's at least a righty power threat.

Another test for me will be the relative playing times of Cairo and Betemit. If Cairo continues to do anything but LIDR and PR than Joe is harming the team again.

Look, some of these things are debatable points, like when to lift a starter, or what pitcher to go to in a specific situation. But playing crappier players over better ones is pretty hard to argue when you have both on the team.

2007-08-01 10:02:37
80.   pistolpete
53 Stat-wise Philips may be right, but Melky has shown he can hack it in NY. The 'million other players' like Melky might not.

Besides, what makes him so special that Texas would want him? I think we all know the answer to that one.

2007-08-01 10:03:21
81.   ChrisS
68 71 Torre has a lot of clout in the organization, to think otherwise is kinda naive.

It seems that sabremetrics and "stat-heads" get a lot of unnecessary grief in baseball circles because of ignorance and overrated small samples. Johnny Damon made a truly ignorant comment about stat-geeks not caring about his walks, when the opposite is true. It's not that far-fetched that the core four may have different opinions on what the team needs to do, especially when they are obviously favorites of Joe.

Cashman may understand why he's making the right decisions in some circumstances, but when it comes time make some biggies, it's not like he operates in a vacuum. I'm sure that the process of firing someone that "won four titles" isn't the same as DFA-ing Kevin Thompson or trading Scott Proctor. He has people to answer to.

As stated elsewhere by others, if Torre nixed the Bradley or Ensberg signings, that was a good thing. Cashman isn't the perfect GM for everyone, but I think that he needs to compromise on some things in order to get some tougher stuff done.

2007-08-01 10:04:02
82.   OldYanksFan
74 "And 68 are you implying that no one else on the team burns with the same desire to win?"

No, of course not. I was just replying directly to the statement in 59

2007-08-01 10:05:18
83.   pistolpete
75 "I give you a brand new ARMANI suit and you can't even buy me a meal at a nice restaurant?"
2007-08-01 10:05:25
84.   OldYanksFan
75 You are correct Sir. I've had my say. All done.
2007-08-01 10:07:32
85.   yankz
The Goldman article I was referencing:

http://www.nysun.com/article/57500

2007-08-01 10:09:06
86.   Shaun P
71 Because Cashman didn't feel that what happened last year was entirely Torre's fault. To have made him take the fall for what ultimately amounted to freak injuries to Matsui and Sheffield would have lost the clubhouse. That the Yanks got as far as they did was, in the eyes of many fans (and I'm sure in the eyes of the players), a testament to Joe Torre as a manager, not an indictment of his abilities.

This year, its different. Torre is actively hurting the team through his crappy bullpen management, and his refusal to use the talent at hand. Switch Duncan with Damon for the two months of DH ABs Damon got when he was hurt, and that might be two wins right there. Play Phelps more instead of Minky (saving him as LIDR) or Cairo and that might be another 2 wins. The Yanks' front office is smart enough to get this. Things look an awful lot different if the Yanks were at 61-45, 3 GB.

That record, BTW, would be a lot closer to the Yanks's Pythag record of 65-41 - which I think many of us believe is more indicative of this team's ability.

2007-08-01 10:09:39
87.   tommyl
80 Stat wise Phillips isn't right. Melky is arguably one of the best defensive CFers in the AL and in the last few months has been hitting quite well. Who exactly would Phillips replace him? I'm sure he'll say Juan Pierre, because he's speedy.
2007-08-01 10:11:03
88.   williamnyy23
68 I don't think anyone is having (or should be) an epiphany about Torre's style…I just think it is being exposed more because of the evolution of the team. Also, Torre has gotten older and, perhaps, the advisers around him have gotten either less wise or more reticent to speak up. At one time, Torre was an asset. He no longer is. When it happens with players, we all accept it (hello Bernie), but for some reason it's more difficult with the manager.
2007-08-01 10:12:26
89.   Schteeve
There aren't a million people on earth who can hit big league pitching.
2007-08-01 10:12:45
90.   Shaun P
75 84 Me too.

I do like your point, OYF, that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes that we don't, and can't, see or grasp.

2007-08-01 10:14:07
91.   yankz
Guys, Steve Phillips singlehandedly won the Mets that pennant and drafted Jose Reyes. I say we fire Cashman and bring him in.
2007-08-01 10:17:08
92.   OldYanksFan
WhyWaitTilNextYearDept:
Santana looks to be an FA after 2008.
He is arguably the best SP in the AL over the last 4 years.
In 2009: He will be 30, have 9 ML years on him, averaging 225 IPs over the last 5 years.

What will he cost?
What is he worth to us?
If we have 3 studs in Wang, Hughes and Joba, is our first need still SP?

Giambi, Roger, Andy and Moose should be off the books.
(subplot: Do they resign Giambi as DH if he is a .920+ OPS in 2008?)
Thats around 64 mil.

2007-08-01 10:18:09
93.   williamnyy23
87 Exactly. If Steve Phillips could easily find 22-year old center fielders who field well, have strong throwing arms and established themselves as at least league average with a decent amount of patience and bat control, he wouldn't have been dumped on his arse by the Mets. Steve Phillips is in Bristol for a reason.
2007-08-01 10:20:09
94.   williamnyy23
92 You always make room for Santanna (especially as a lefty, which is what the team lacks). Hopefully, when the time comes, the Yankees can acquire Johan without having to deal Wang/Joba/Phil.
2007-08-01 10:20:24
95.   JL25and3
79 Right now Damon is whacking the hell out of the ball, and I wouldn't sit him. A healthy Damon is likely to be a more productive player than Duncan, even against lefties.

75 And now I, too, will heed your Dead Horse Alert. Thanks for the reminder.

2007-08-01 10:21:02
96.   pistolpete
87 I'm talking overall career offensive numbers.

However as we've all been a witness to, Melky just keeps getting better & better. Reminds me of watching Bernie in the early 90's, except with a cannon for an arm.

2007-08-01 10:22:16
97.   Shaun P
Current BP Postseason Odds:

AL Wildcard:
Yanks: 32.42767
Indians: 26.24128
Tigers: 17.34411
Twins: 6.16428
M's: 5.90470
Blue Jays: 3.9134
Red Sox: 3.79757*

(No one else is over 3; Angels are the only other team greater than 1, at 2.81511, because they have ~79% odds on winning the West.)

Also note that the Indians have better overall odds on making the playoffs, because their odds at winning at the Central are 33.76275 (combined 60.00402) while the Yanks overall odds are just 37.35312 (odds of winning East: 4.92545).

*Red Sox odds on winning the East: 94.60160(!). I wonder if that almost 90% chance is worse than the hill the Yanks had to climb last year.

2007-08-01 10:25:26
98.   Zack
Well if you really want an article to be annoyed over or argue over, check out Heyman's http://preview.tinyurl.com/3aplrg
2007-08-01 10:29:40
99.   pistolpete
OT here, but for whatever reason I decided to take a gander at the stats for the principals of the Abreu trade.

Not good. The only one putting up any semblance of a career (and isn't hurt) is Monasterios, and he's sporting a 4.75 ERA in A-ball.

Abreu may look awful at times, but Cash still pulled off a doozy there.

2007-08-01 10:31:10
100.   JL25and3
94 I'd trade one of them for Santana in a heartbeat.

Someone suggested earlier that the Yankees not trade for Santana, but sign him as a free agent. That's fine, if you don't really want to get him. The best way to get Santana for the long term is to trade for him and sign him right then and there. If you don't do that, someone else will.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2007-08-01 10:39:08
101.   JL25and3
98 Yeah, more poppycock. First off, as I said above, the Yankees will be picking up Jason Giambi, Phil Hughes and Joba Chamberlain - all without having to give up a thing. I like that better than any swag the Red Sox got.

Second - so they improved their bullpen. BFD - the Yankees couldn't hit the Sox bullpen before, so this doesn't hurt much. It ws always going to come down to whether the Yankees can outhit them, and outpitch them in the rotation.

2007-08-01 10:45:26
102.   NJYankee41
98 I appreciate the useful info he provides, but he has some bonehead opinions sometimes.
2007-08-01 10:49:03
103.   Z Man
need to write about this Proctor- Betemit Trade... I'm a 24 year old die-hard yankee fan with a yankee tattoo on my right leg with the numbers 7 and 23 above and below it.... Mantle (dad's favorite player) and Mattingly (my favorite player). As you can see, when Cashman decides to make a herendous move concerning the yankees bullpen, I can get frustrated. For a worthless bench player who's yet to impress anyone in this league (and I could careless about all the crap stats that people have been throwing out there), he won't get much playing time. Cano's on fire, A-rod's the reason why we're winning and Jeter well... let's be serious on that one, the guy's going to play just about every game. So this leaves us with what? .... a guy we got for an absolute work horse in the 6th and 7th innings, yea Proctor may have blown a few games here and gave up a HR to tie the game, but how many times has Jeter gone 0 for 20, Posada 1 for 28 and A-rod (currently) 0 for 17... everyone struggles and I truly think that it was wrong of Cashman to get rid of Proctor and unfortunately keep Farnsworth. Due to Farnsworth's persona and overall salary (which is an absolute disgrace), no one wants him! It's like purchasing a Jaguar... you pay all this money for a car that eats up gas, breaks down constantly and it will take forever to fix.

HORRIBLE MOVE OF THE YEAR: Proctor to L.A. for Wilson B.
2007-08-01 10:53:19
104.   yankz
Yikes. Did you read Cliff's post yesterday?
2007-08-01 10:56:55
105.   cult of basebaal
wow, i remember when i was 23 ... don't think i was ever that kind of 23, though ...
2007-08-01 10:57:10
106.   cult of basebaal
doh ... 24
2007-08-01 11:00:25
107.   OldYanksFan
98 No so bad. The Yanks less then average grade was due MOSTLY from NOT stopping the Sox from getting Gagne. I can live with it.

ROOT AGAINST THE WEST!
Whether we win the Div or WC, our first round is against either the Angels or the Tigers. If we take the WC, we are the visiting team. If The Angels post a better record then the Tigers, Boston gets Detroit, and we have to make 2 RTs to California to play the Angels. No thanks.

I'd MUCH prefer the Tigers (or Cleveland) and a much shorter travel burden. So root for the Central winner to beat the West winner, and let Boston schlep coast to coast.

2007-08-01 11:02:56
108.   tommyl
103 Betemit a worthless bench player? You know what...I'm not getting sucked into this argument.
2007-08-01 11:03:15
109.   JohnnyC
Ignore Heyman. He's a Yankees basher from way back. He even appears on Yankees Hot Stove Report during the off-season and smirkingly rips the team's moves and goes on to suggest wholly inappropriate deals such as signing Barry Zito or trading ARod to the Cubs for Aramis Ramirez. He's a Mets fan.
2007-08-01 11:03:48
110.   Shaun P
107 Couldn't we root for the M's to overtake the Angels, and then get the M's in the first round? They do not scare me.

103 Can't say I agree with your analysis, but I understand where you're coming from. I will say that comparing Kyle Farnsworth to a Jaguar is maybe the nicest thing anyone around here has said about him in a long time. (I was under the impression a Jaguar was a very nice car, but I could be wrong.)

2007-08-01 11:05:51
111.   williamnyy23
98 107 Suggesting that Melky was worth 20 innings from a middle reliever is ridiculous. Implying that he is easily replaceable is just as silly.

What I don't get about everyone going gaga over gagne is the Red Sox entire bullpen is pitching well. If having Gagne means less Okajima and Papelbon, that could actually be a bad thing. Yes...Gagne makes a very spiffy late man, but the Red Sox had real concerns elsewhere, but only decided to address the biggest strength. Winning close games late wasn't going to be a problem for the Sox...getting those leads, however, is another story. Based on that alone, I don't see how one could give the Red Sox an "A".

2007-08-01 11:08:10
112.   Z Man
Tommyl,

He's a worthless bench player on the yankees and I made that pretty clear with my follow up. He will play 15 games this year if he's lucky.

Cashman made the wrong move and that's trusting a 21 year old down in AAA to help carry the bullpen workload while we're trailing 7 games and 3 games...I couldn't be happier that Cash is looking towards the future (finally) but we needed a 2 inning mature reliever and now our bullpen looks like a piece of swiss cheese.

7th- Okajima
8th-Gagne
9th- Papelbon

2007-08-01 11:08:11
113.   Z Man
Tommyl,

He's a worthless bench player on the yankees and I made that pretty clear with my follow up. He will play 15 games this year if he's lucky.

Cashman made the wrong move and that's trusting a 21 year old down in AAA to help carry the bullpen workload while we're trailing 7 games and 3 games...I couldn't be happier that Cash is looking towards the future (finally) but we needed a 2 inning mature reliever and now our bullpen looks like a piece of swiss cheese.

7th- Okajima
8th-Gagne
9th- Papelbon

2007-08-01 11:08:28
114.   rbj
Just ran across this article:

http://tinyurl.com/2p2znw

At least some LA Galaxy fans are upset that Beckham isn't playing "Another disguntled fan held up his handiwork: "Welcome to America where people like you get paid to do nothing."

Apparently, he has heard of Carl Pavano.

2007-08-01 11:09:06
115.   OldYanksFan
110 ROOT AGAINST THE WEST!
(any cowboy team will do).
Am I correct that the visiting teams travels TWICE in a 5 game series? That's brutal.
2007-08-01 11:09:38
116.   cult of basebaal
man ... interesting article from tyler kepner over at the NYT ... here's the leadoff:

On July 8, the day before the All-Star Game break, the Yankees led the Angels by 10 runs when Scott Proctor was sent in to pitch the eighth inning. To the Yankees' decision makers, this was an obvious sign that Manager Joe Torre would probably always favor Proctor over a pitcher just up from the minors, no matter how promising that pitcher seemed.
So when the trading deadline arrived at 4 p.m. yesterday, the Yankees took away Torre's go-to reliever, shipping Proctor to the Los Angeles Dodgers for the utility infielder Wilson Betemit

2007-08-01 11:11:47
117.   Z Man
Tommyl,

He's a worthless bench player on the yankees and I made that pretty clear with my follow up. He will play 15 games this year if he's lucky.

Cashman made the wrong move and that's trusting a 21 year old down in AAA (who JUST got moved up there by the way) to help carry the bullpen workload while we're trailing 7 games and 3 games...I couldn't be happier that Cash is looking towards the future (finally) but we needed a 2-3 inning mature reliever but instead we lost a reliever and still have Mike "can't get ONE guy out" Meyers and Kyle "the new knoblauch" Farnsworth.

2007-08-01 11:13:51
118.   tommyl
113 Sorry, but take a look at: RLYW, they have a great breakdown of Betemit. He can play all four IF positions, and even a bit of corner OF. He can hit (unless you only look at BA, but then hey, Jason Giambi sucks too). This year he can replace Cairo, he's under control for the next 3 years and cheap. At best that locks up the utility IF slot with a guy who could be starting on most any other team. At worst, he could play 3B next year if A-Rod walks.

Proctor on the other hand had more innings and appearance since the start of 2006 than any other reliever in all of baseball. He's trending downwards, and seriously, league average, middle relief righties with flyball tendencies aren't that hard to find. The Yankees already have a few, one who is better than Proctor could be Britton or Ramirez. Joba and Proctor are like comparing apples and oranges.

2007-08-01 11:15:59
119.   tommyl
117 So you would have given up Melky Cabrera for 20 games of Eric Gagne?! Our cheap, playing well, defensive phenom, starting CF?

Or given up Kennedy, a potential #2 or 3 starter for years to come?

Cliff said it well yesterday. The Sox made a move to win the WS at a potential sacrifice of their future, the Yankees didn't. Both teams made the right move for them.

2007-08-01 11:17:07
120.   3rd gen yankee fan
70 Wow, you were there? Wow... just wow. What a game. I'll never forget it and I was only watching on tv (with a bunch of Yankee-haters).
2007-08-01 11:17:35
121.   cult of basebaal
117 you mean like the angels did when the brought up Frankie Rodriguez in 2002 and trusted his unhittable stuff rather than the fact he'd earned his BFOG merit badge and let him lead them to their world series championship???
oh, sorry, he was only 20 at the time, guess that doesn't count ...
2007-08-01 11:18:53
122.   pistolpete
119 But...but...we're draft losers, dontcha know!
2007-08-01 11:21:54
123.   SF Yanks
116 Ha, that's very interesting. Now this brings the question: Will Torre have a new "go-to guy" or will he be forced to try someone new (Edwar)?
2007-08-01 11:26:00
124.   williamnyy23
113 Bnech players are only "worthless" until you need to use them, or in Cairo's case, when you need to use them.

Betemit greatly improves the Yankees bench and depth, while Proctor was wildly inconsistent out of the pen. With so many young arms ready to step in, this move made perfect sense and the Yankees are a better team as a result.

2007-08-01 11:26:41
125.   cult of basebaal
123 well, i wouldn't want to be The Deuce's arm in the next 2 months, but after that i think the kids are going to get a shot
2007-08-01 11:28:03
126.   JohnnyC
Sciosia and Stoneman may or may not have known how good K-Rod would end up being but they certainly understood the tactical advantage of throwing someone out there NO ONE had ever seen...and as the Yankees often prove, you don't hit a guy off minor league scouting reports. Fine, it worked out for them and it was a bit of a gamble. That's why "experience" is not all it's cracked up to be. Short term benefits should always be considered. Why not ride a hot hand coming out of the minors? (see Duncan & Edwar) Do we care that these guys have the shelf life of a fruit fly when they help us win a handful of very important games now...the now in which we live? So they never make the BFOG Hall of Fame. So what. You win anyway you can. Don't look for style points.
2007-08-01 11:28:25
127.   Raf
123 My money's on Viz. Or Joba, if he shows anything.

117 The Yanks have more than enough arms either on the current staff (Bruney, Farnsworth, Vizcaino), or in the minors (Chamberlain, Edwar, Britton), or rehabbing (Veras, Kartsens, Rasner) to make up for the loss of Proctor's innings.

2007-08-01 11:29:55
128.   Schteeve
103 A couple of things.

1) I have a Yankees tattoo also. It doesn't make me any smarter about baseball.

2) I tend to agree with you, however, I barely know anything about Betemit, Cliff knows a ton more about player analysis than I do, and he thinks it was a great move. So, I defer to the person who is more educated than I am. It's something worth considering. It doesn't mean Cliff is going to be proven right, but it does suggest to me that my unfounded gut opinion needs to be tempered with some facts.

3) Coming to this website and saying stuff like, "I don't care about all the crap stats people are throwing around" is probably not going to make people take your analysis very seriously.

2007-08-01 11:32:19
129.   Schteeve
120 Yeah, it was insane. I felt like I was in some sort of dream for hours after the game. I lost my voice for 3 days after the game.
2007-08-01 11:34:22
130.   Z Man
Never said I would have given up Melky, so I have no idea where that came from AND I never said that Gagne was a good move for the Yankees...what I did say was that trading away bullpen relievers when we need them most was a bad idea for a BENCH player (and getting nothing in return to fill the hole)...ooooh, Wilson can play corner outfield! Thank god for that! haha...
2007-08-01 11:37:27
131.   yankz
128 Even without using stats. Who could watch Proctor the last two weeks and say he was still pitching effectively?
2007-08-01 11:38:10
132.   Z Man
1) Never said the tattoo was making me smarter about baseball, just showing that I'm a Yankee fan and my comments are constructive, not destructive.

2)I know Cliff knows a ton about player analysis and what he said does make sense, just not for the Yankees right now (in my opinion). Take it or leave it, either way I'm gonna stay how I feel.

3)Because I don't care about the crap people are throwing up about him because his stats will be worthless as he's barely going to play. No one can thrive when they're playing once a week.

2007-08-01 11:38:13
133.   tommyl
130 Seriously, if you want to make a reasoned argument why Betemit is not a good player, than make it. But if all you're going to say is, "Betemit sucks! He's a crappy bench player! Proctor was great!" and not back that up at all than I'm done arguing my point with you.
2007-08-01 11:39:20
134.   Z Man
Yankz! haha... come on, I know you're smarter than this... 2 weeks?! It's a 7, sometimes 8 month season... everyone slumps including the best in the game. So sorry dude, I can't help you on that one.
2007-08-01 11:40:38
135.   Z Man
haha... never said Betemit sucks, never said proctor was GREAT and Betemit personally, doesn't suck... but it's a crap bench player move.

When you're done putting words in my mouth, let me know.

2007-08-01 11:42:46
136.   williamnyy23
120I've been at a few walk-off playoff wins, but the one that still stands out for me is the Jimmy Leyritz game in 1995. Whether it was because the team hadn't been in the post season for so long, or because every day fans were able to get their hands on the tickets, that crowd was the loudest I've ever experienced. When Mattingly hit the home run, the entire place exploded. As soon as the ball left Mattingly's bat, it seemed as if everyone took what they had in their hands and threw it up in the air. Also, even though it was past midnight by the end, the celebration was the most joyous. I can still recall the entire subway ride home...everyone was soaking wet, but the entire packed car was singing in European soccer fashion.
2007-08-01 11:43:40
137.   Schteeve
132 I hear you on your third point. But Cashman's job is to give the team the tools it needs to win. Torre's job is to use those tools. It's on Torre to make sure Betemit has chances to contribute.
2007-08-01 11:48:04
138.   yankz
OK, you're right, 2 weeks is a small sample. Thanks for telling me I'm smarter. I'll try doing this without using TOO many numbers. In the last two months, nearly 2 out of every five batters have reached base against him. He's striking out a scarily small number of guys (compared to what he used to) while walking more than ever. That's not going to cut it in late innings, when there are already guys on base and the offense is running out of chances to score.

There's no denying that he was once a solid relief pitcher. But he hasn't been that guy for a while now, and I think it's safe to assume that his arm has been cooked.

For someone who says all this much more articulately than I do, check out Steve Lombardi's take: http://tinyurl.com/2vvh2j

A pitcher who was ineffective and quite possibly done for a guy whose OPS (sorry, I had to) since May 1 is higher than A-Rod's since May 1? To replace (hopefully) Miguel Cairo? When there are a half dozen capable arms waiting to fill in? I'll take it.

2007-08-01 11:49:46
139.   Z Man
Okay, and I'm with you 100% on Torre utilizing his tools and Cashmans' responsibility to get the tools BUT! ....

We have an all-star infield (minus first base and even now, Phillips is coming around with everyday playing time). Betemit will get his 1-2 games a week filling in for Cano, Jeter or A-rod but honestly, was it really necessary fella's? On Monday afternoon I read reports that the Yankees had turned their backs on relievers and I saw this trade coming from a year ago. I think someone's got a hard-on for Betemit in the Yankee organization because exactly one year later they still wanted him, WHY?! (and that why is directed to anyone because I honestly don't know).

2007-08-01 11:53:40
140.   Z Man
Yankz... you're not smarter, you just use other people's opinions that you read on websites more than I do, which is fine... some people need the backing of a website.
2007-08-01 11:54:52
141.   ChrisS
Interesting turn the discussion has taken.

Apparently people like reliving bad deals like overvaluing "veteran" middle relievers at the expense of young starters and position players.

Ask the Red Sox if Larry Anderson was worth it.

2007-08-01 11:55:11
142.   pistolpete
130 Let me try and clarify: the ideal trade would have been Farnsworth for Betemit, but the fact remains that no one was taking Kyle off our hands.

We only weakened our bullpen, IMO, if you subscribe to the theory that Proctor was suddenly going to turn things around and pitch lights-out for the rest of the season. Chances are good he wasn't. Our bench has been a weakness ALL season and there's no one sitting in AAA who would help as much as Betemit probably will.

OTOH, pitching is in abundance. That remains a tradeable commodity...

We also had to trade him for his own health, mind you.

2007-08-01 11:56:15
143.   williamnyy23
139 Yes...it was necessary. What don't you like about a 25 year old, athletic player who can play every infield defensive position and who has already established himself as a league average bat with decent patience and plus power?

Personally, I can't believe the Dodgers were willing to take a 30-year old reliever with suspect peripherals for Betemit. Not only will Betemit provide depth this season, but the Yankees can now control him for 3 years. Any Yankee fan who has been paying attention these last few seasons can see the value in having useful position depth.

2007-08-01 11:58:04
144.   yankz
140 Um, I was not being sarcastic, I was actually referring to when you said "I know you're smarter than this". I was legitimately thanking you for reminding me that I'm smarter than to fall for a 2 week sample.

Apparently 138 is not my own opinion, and I'm the dumbass here for trusting baseball minds smarter than my own. I give up. You can't be convinced.

2007-08-01 11:59:39
145.   williamnyy23
140 Using someone else's thoughtful analysis as a backing for your opinion is hardly a bad thing. It surely beats an argument that ignores stats and the relative talents of the two players.

What exactly is your argument anyway? You can't really mean to suggest that the Yankees are better off with a weaker bench and struggling relievers such as Proctor getting the ball everyday?

2007-08-01 12:00:45
146.   yankz
Oh no, Farns might be on his way out: http://tinyurl.com/27umre

WTF IS CASHMAN THINKING?!?! We have to hold on to all these STUD relievers!!!!! It's our BIGGEST weakness and Farns is an ASSET!!

2007-08-01 12:01:26
147.   Z Man
Nope, I can't. Sorry fellas... maybe it's more my young Yankee blood looking for that blockbuster deal RIGHT at the deadline... so that may be clouting my mind the next couple days. I honestly just wanted to see bullpen help, that's all.

Side note- gotta love 8 HR's in one game against our past "phenom" contreras haha...

2007-08-01 12:01:33
148.   tommyl
144 No see, that website has numbers compiled by other people. So its not really your own opinion. (and yes, I'm being sarcastic here).

Argh, I said I wasn't going to argue and then I did anyways. Its all Kyle Farnsworth's fault.

2007-08-01 12:02:37
149.   Z Man
Dude, farnsworth sucks man... I hated him from the start, so I'm in agreeance with you as he can only pitch one crappy inning. At least Proctor could go out and eat up innings.
2007-08-01 12:04:35
150.   tommyl
150 Z, why don't you do this. Compare Proctor's expected rest of the season to a league average reliever, even though Joba, Britton and Edwar are likely to be better I'll give that to you. Now, figure he'd pitch tops of 30-40 innings. How many wins difference is that?
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2007-08-01 12:05:24
151.   yankz
147 Then why did you come here asking for answers (i.e. 139?)

There are still Yankee fans who get turned on by making blockbuster deals just for the sake of making blockbuster deals? I guess Bronx Banter posters really are a small minority in Yankeeland.

2007-08-01 12:06:21
152.   pistolpete
146 I don't put much stock in that article, sorry.

The best we can hope for is that maybe NOT being traded will re-adjust Farnsy's attitude - he did have a wicked slider working last night, and hopefully he'll continue to use it rather than just try and blow everyone away...

2007-08-01 12:07:37
153.   yankz
152 Keep in mind that he was pitching in a game that had been deciding a long time ago. I seriously doubt he'll have that wicked slider in the 8th inning of a 1-run game against Cleveland.
2007-08-01 12:08:24
154.   Bama Yankee
139 Betemit could also become very valuable next year if A-Rod opts out. Unfortunately for the Yankees, (to paraphrase Rick Pitino) Craig Nettles is not gonna walk through that door, Scott Brosius is not gonna walk through that door. Heck, even Drew Henson is not gonna walk through that door (actually Drew might be available).

As others have said, getting Betemit for a guy who is lucky to still have the full use of his right arm was a good deal in my book. Especially if we were suddenly faced with a huge hole to fill at 3B.

2007-08-01 12:08:53
155.   pistolpete
153 Gotta build up the confidence somewhere I guess. What better time than in a blowout?
2007-08-01 12:11:21
156.   Z Man
I don't get turned on by it but I figured a STUD reliever would be in the bullpen today.

I hope that Joba, Britton and Edwar do well because that's all we got.

2007-08-01 12:12:46
157.   tommyl
156 Besides Gagne, what STUD reliever are you referring to?
2007-08-01 12:13:17
158.   Vandelay Industries
I actually like the move for Betemit. Proctor is just another middle of the road hard throwing headcase whom many have tried to get to mix pitches, yet he refused over and over.

What upsets me about the Gange deal isn't that we didn't get him, because I didn't think we would. It is that he went for almost nothing, and that isn't my opinion, it's scouts, writers, and even players. I find it hard to believe that the deal Boston offered was the best out there.

2007-08-01 12:13:30
159.   Raf
136 I was at that game too. I remember the crowd singing "NY, NY" after the game, and chanting "sweep, sweep, sweep."

Whatever everyone threw in the air, quickly found it's way on to the field, which is why Lou pulled his team :) But that was a great moment; remember the crowd was still hot from the Sierra HR.

One of the things that stood out to me was Showalter insisting that Jeter & Posada (and Ruben Rivera, I think) stay with the club to see how things are done.

But it was cool to see Bernie and Donnie in the playoffs and perform well.

Seeing the Yanks in the postseason in 1995 made up for a lot of the bad teams that showed up from 1989-92. In 93 they had made some strides towards respectability, pestering the Jays until September. Maybe Maddux would've made a difference. A healthy Jimmy Key definately would have...

2007-08-01 12:13:53
160.   yankz
I'd take Joba/Britton/Edwar + Melky over Gagne +??(Kevin Thompson?).
2007-08-01 12:14:01
161.   Z Man
Final words for now as I have work to do haha... All I've been trying to explain here on these boards is that putting the 2nd half of a season in pitchers who've basically never pitched in the bigs is risky... especially when we're gaining ground almost daily in the standings for the Division and WC (because of our hitting)... I hope all of you are right in the end and I'm wrong.
2007-08-01 12:16:50
162.   Vandelay Industries
161

I agree. But the only way to get Gange, the only reliever with experience available, a trade and sign would have been the only option. We cant trade Melky or Kennedy for a two month rental. We would have had to lock Gange up for at least three years.

2007-08-01 12:18:30
163.   williamnyy23
158 Next to nothing isn't fair. Beltre is a highly thought of young prospect with a lot of upside (kind of like Tabata). If he develops, this deal could become infamous for the Red Sox.
2007-08-01 12:21:14
164.   seattleyank
161 Don't forget that just a couple years ago Proctor was an unproven guy coming out of the minors -- without the track record of dominance of Joba or Edwar. That wasn't Mo we just traded. Yes, Proctor was a workhorse and had his moments of brilliance, but not many lately. Just because Torre fell in love with him doesn't mean there aren't other guys who can do the job just as well.
2007-08-01 12:23:58
165.   Yu-Hsing Chen
a few thought

1.Santana: we've got our hands full this year resigning A-rod / Jorge / Mo and figure something out with Abreu. (i'd say best case we can talk him into a cheaper 2 year deal and worest case we should use the option) after next year though both Moose and Pettitte will be leaving (am i wrong to think that Cashman probably intentionally lined this up?). and yes you sign Sananta no matter what.

2. Melky: 22 year old playing awsome CF and hitting better than the average CF = huge prospects... espically if their not a Yankee and/or over 6 feet tall, Melky get dissed because he's shorter and a Yankee, but realistically if you look at his (and Cano's ) performances over the last 2 year, the Yankees probably have a new pair of Bernie / Jeter on hand (to a lesser degree)

3. Betemit : the dude have very legit power, and seemed to have learned to take a walk this year, he still have some things to figure out, and may or may not get the chance to do so here. but there's reasonable chance he turns into a awsome player. and if not he's still a awsome utility guy. I'd take that sort of gamble over Scott Proctor anyday. in terms of talent for talent, this was by far the most lopsided deal this year, espically because these 2 guys are of similiar service time so there's no salary debate and their in the same age range. so there's also no future / now debate. Betemit 's value for the remainder fo the season compare to Proctor is a wash at worest and likely to be slightly better, while there's a much better chance for the next 3 year that he's better.

Look, next year's 1B crop's "best" player if Kevin Millar, that's just utter bullshit bad, if we could even straiten out Betemit a little he'd beat all of those guys hands down and don't cost several million . he's a very big guy, and flashed awsome power for quiet some time now, he just needs a chance and some adjustments.

2007-08-01 12:24:23
166.   Vandelay Industries
163

I think they'll trade Beltre for a World Series Title.

2007-08-01 12:28:21
167.   ric
agreeance ;)
2007-08-01 12:28:29
168.   williamnyy23
166 Do you really think the only thing keeping the Red Sox from a WS title was Eric Gagne? The Red Sox needed a bat much more than a reliever. Take a look at the entire Red Sox pen...from Paps to Okajima and on down to Lopez and Snyder, they are all pitching well.
2007-08-01 12:29:16
169.   rconn23
I hate to whine, but I am. I get really sick of listening biased analysts bash the Yankees.

Steve Phillips of course is the captain of that ship with the common theme of "The Yankees are in trouble". He literally praises nothing about the organization.

Jayson Stark is his first mate with a mantra of the "Yankees are incapable of making any big moves because they have no flexibility and nothing of value that any team would want." Note: He said this before the Abreu trade last year.

And unfortunately, as much as I respect him Gammons, has just no shame anymore about openly shilling for the Red Sox.

I remember him on Baseball Tonight last year during a Yanks-Sox highlight when Posada hit a deep flyball to centerfield. Gammons giddily said something to the tune of "Well, he can hit as deep as he wants it's not going out there." I'm not making this up.
The Sox can just do no wrong in his eyes. Every prospect they have is a future all-star.

Remember when Jeff Suppan was traded to the Sox? At the worldwide leader, you would have thought it was Cy Young. He, of course, was terrible after his arrival, because at that point in his career he had been bad everywhere else.

I'm rambling here, but damn, it's getting to be ridiculous. And I'm someone who is often overly critical of the Yanks, especially their over-reliance on veterans.

Listening to this anaylsis of Proctor-Betemit and the Yanks decision to not pillage their future for 20 innings of Gagne is mostly unabashed Yankee hatred.
Proctor all of the sudden is an electrifying arm that the Yanks were fools to give up. Proctor is a serviceable arm, I guess, just like 25 or 30 other middle relievers who feature a flat fastball that gets hammered. Torre sent him to walk the plank because he didn't have anyone better. He pitched his heart out and I wish him well. `But did anyone ever go, "whew, here comes Scott Proctor, I feel much better now" when he came into the game? Really, ask yourself that question.

I feel better about Joba or the promise of Joba without even having seen him yet.

2007-08-01 12:31:22
170.   williamnyy23
166 Also, even if Gagne helps Boston, it's not fair to Texas to claim they got next to nothing. For a reliever who is a FA after this season, Texas got a legitimate prospect, albeit one who is very young. I think Daniels did fine in this trade.
2007-08-01 12:36:58
171.   JL25and3
156 Um, there is a stud reliever in the bullpen.

136 I was at the Chambliss game. None of the ones I've been to since then could touch it.

2007-08-01 12:39:18
172.   OldYanksFan
116 Wow... I feel useful. Look... I have an 'unnamed source' on this one, so let me tell ya the full story:

July 22: 10AM Meeting -
Brian: Listen Joe, the brass wants to see what Edwar can do and save Scotty for the Post Season. So next appropriate time, Edwar's in. OK?
Joe: No can do Brian.
BC: Waddayamean?
JT: He's 'Every Day Scott Proctor'. Get it?
BC: Yeah but Joe, the brass wants to see Edwar. You get my drift? the 'Brass'? OK?
JT: It screws with my formula Brian. Sorry.
BC: OK... we'll talk again.

July 24: 11:30 AM Meeting -
Hal Stenbrenner: Joe... How's it going?
JT: Good to see you Hal. Dad still alive?
Hal: Ah...yeah... thanks. Listen. I've met with the principal execs and we've decided it is imperative to see what our kids can do. Especially Edwar and maybe even Joba.
JT: Joba the Hut?
BC: No Joe... he's a stud kid we got on the farm.
JT: The Yankees own a farm? How come I wasn't told. I could use a vacation.
Hal: Er....Joe... Listen. An executive decision has been made to use the kids in the BP whenever possible and to give Proctor a break
JT: EVERY DAY Scott Proctor gets his break from midnight till Noon. Then he's good to go. Every Day. Get it?
BC: No.. Joe...It's out of our hands. An executive decision. Edwar pitches whenever possible. OK?
JT: You guys can't fuck with my formula. My formula that's gotten us 4 rings. Sorry Hal... Brian. No can do.

July 26: 9:30 AM Meeting -
George Steinbrenner: Joe... good morning. Have a seat.
JT: George. Nice to see you.
GS: Listen Joe, I hear we got a misunderstanding. I want to make it clear. We need to see what we have in these young pitchers. Edwar pitches ASAP. Got it?
JT: What do you think you own this fuckin' place? This is bullshit! Horseshit! Bull Horseshit! Scotty needs his work.
GS: Joe. You gotta listen. PLEASE. Everybody wants to see Edwar. It's best for the organization!
JT: EVERYBODY doesn't manage this team. How many rings did Billy get you?
GS: Look... Joe... I haven't told anybody yet but... I'm dying. Doc says this is my 'last' October
JT: Geez George, I'm really sorry to hear that.
GS: So... for me... before I die.... You give this Kid Edwar a chance? As much as possible?
JT: Sure George. Every 15 days. Like clockwork.

July 28: 11:00 AM Clubhouse phone:
Mz. Torre: Joe!
JT: Yes Sweetheart, whats the matter?
Mz: There are 3 men with black ski masks here with guns! They have our baby in the other room!
JT: Geez!
Mz. They say they're going to gut off one of her fingers each time you pitch Proctor instead of Edwar!
JT: Geez Honey... that sucks. Edwar's not scheduled to pitch until August 12th. And Scotty...well... you know. He's Every Day Scott Proctor. Sorry Honey.
Mz: But Joe! OUR BABY!
JT: Tell her Daddy says to pull out her Belly Full of Guts.
Mz: BUT JOE! THEY HAVE OUR B
JT: Oh.. shit... my Tea. Gotta go sweetheart. My Tea is oversteeping.

July 31: Scott Proctor traded to Los Angeles (because Siberia doesn't have a team)
Aug 2: 9:30 PM. Yankees up on the White Sox by 14 runs. Farnsworth OD'ed on Heroin. Viz was arrested as an illegal alien. Edwar and Joba are in the BP.

Torre to the BP: Bring in Villone and get Bruney up, just in case.

Cashman to Hal Steinbrenner: Listen, I want to see what we have in Betemit. How are the ARod for Pierre talks going?

2007-08-01 12:41:27
173.   SF Yanks
Would anyone trade Jeter (never to return again) for two World Series in a row (this year and next)?
2007-08-01 12:42:41
174.   cult of basebaal
gambling on scott proctor to regain his form from last year over the next 2 months, when torre insists on riding him like a rented mule, is a far bigger gamble than seeing whether joba or edwar or britton can, at the very least, replace his innings

it's not the same as calling up a guy to replace a solid, innings eating starter ... young guys come up and blitz the league in relief all the time ... hell, if anything, this is the time to extract maximum value from a young callup ... the league isn't going to get more than maybe 1 or 2 looks at them before the playoffs, anyway ...

2007-08-01 12:49:02
175.   Vandelay Industries
174

Not to mention that the club won't allow Torre to employ the "use them up, throw them out," approach with Britton and Joba.

2007-08-01 12:49:42
176.   yankz
172 Please tell me you didn't type all that out.

173 Not on your life.

2007-08-01 12:50:12
177.   Vandelay Industries
173

I sure hope you're not comparing Beltre to Jeter.

2007-08-01 12:52:32
178.   williamnyy23
173 No.
2007-08-01 12:56:30
179.   ChrisS
173

No, because part of why I want the Yankees to win is that I follow the core players just as much as the team.

If the Yankees trade Jeter for a guaranteed win, what's the point of cheering for the players? If the players are meaningless with regards to winning a championship, then at that point, one is just cheering for a marketing device (the interlocked NY). So then, why not wait until October and just follow the team with the best shot to win in the WS every year?

The core players and the team go hand in hand.

2007-08-01 13:02:36
180.   pistolpete
174 Plus you're better off trading him when he still has some value.
2007-08-01 13:03:27
181.   JohnnyC
173 No, but I'd trade YOUR favorite Yankees player, coach, manager, or owner for THREE World Series in a row. On second thought, I'd trade Gene Monahan as well.
2007-08-01 13:09:46
182.   Raf
179 Players are meaningless, to a degree; that's why some of them move from team to team. If the right deal came along, I'd move Jeter.

"We'd like to keep you around next year, son, but we're trying to win a pennant." - Casey Stengel

2007-08-01 13:22:27
183.   Vandelay Industries
182 Oh hell no!

A side note: Does Strahan seriously think he deserves a raise? I mean the guy has been below average for five freakin' years. I've always hated this about the NFL. The team should be able to void the entire contract once the player evidences refusal to enter camp and come to work. It seems pretty obvious to me.

2007-08-01 13:23:43
184.   SF Yanks
Huh, I was just curious as to what people would say. Personally, I wouldn't do it either.

And 181 my favorite player of the Yanks is now Mr. Hughes with Jeter, Mo, Posada, and Arod closely behind. It used to be Bernie though. Still want to trade em?

Alright how about 4 World Series for Mo&Posada?

Just kidding. You don't have to answer that one.

2007-08-01 13:25:37
185.   Vandelay Industries
184

Hey, as less than a joke, it might be a wise move. They could both be gone next season anyway.

2007-08-01 13:38:25
186.   Raf
182 Sure, why not? The Mets traded Tom Seaver, the A's traded McGwire, Henderson and Canseco. The Braves traded Dale Murphy. The M's traded Randy Johnson & Ken Griffey Jr. The Rangers traded Alex Rodriguez. So on and so forth.

A team moving a franchise-caliber player is nothing new.

2007-08-01 13:39:38
187.   JL25and3
I wouldn't ever rule it out. The problem is, Jeter's worth more to the Yankees than he would be to any other team. It's not just his play but his good-guy image, his marketing value - and he puts fannies in the seats. A dozen years ago, Yankee Stadium wasn't considered a family-friendly place; not the stands are packed with families, kids of all ages - and I think Jeter's had a lot to do with the change. Simply put, pre-teen girls want to come see Derek Jeter.

That's not the kind of thing that you can replace in a trade. But having said that, if the Marlins offered Miguel Cabrera and Hanley Ramirez, I'd sure think about it.

2007-08-01 13:39:59
188.   JohnnyC
184 185 Geez, I thought you had some inside info on a real deal, like with the commissioner's office. Seriously, Mo & Posada ain't going anywhere. Cashman has been planning for this for the last 2 years, clearing salary in the payroll to accomodate Mo, Posada, ARod, etc. as they come up for new deals.
2007-08-01 13:41:55
189.   cult of basebaal
from dan graziano in the star ledger:

"I'm a part of this organization," Torre said last night. "If (Chamberlain) is good enough to be chosen to fill a role like that, obviously a lot of people in the organization feel the same way about him. And I have to be one of those people."

Torre was playing the company man, speaking hypothetically about a call-up that hasn't yet happened and insisting that he would, indeed, use Chamberlain if the young man were added to his bullpen.

But some in the organization are skeptical. Torre has frustrated people in the front office with his loyalty to slumping veterans and his refusal to use the players (Shelley Duncan, Edwar Ramirez, Andy Phillips when he first came up) they have promoted from their system. He voiced strong opposition to proposed deals for outfielder Milton Bradley and infielder Morgan Ensberg -- deals the Yankees eventually turned down in part because they believed those players would just rot on the bench. Duncan, who was a budding cult hero at Yankee Stadium a week and a half ago, played in just two games on the road trip that followed his big-splash debut weekend.

So as the Yankees mulled different available bench players in advance of the deadline, the common off-the-record refrain from Yankees officials was "our manager won't play him anyway."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sounds like joey joe joe shabbadoo is getting served notice ...

2007-08-01 13:42:27
190.   pistolpete
185 4 World Series rings for Mo & Posada? I'd do it. Neither of them might even be playing in 4 years...
2007-08-01 13:42:55
191.   JohnnyC
187 The Marlins would never trade those two for a 33 year old Jeter and his gazillion dollar contract. Now, more to the point, would you trade Hughes, Joba, Kennedy, and Tabata for Cabrera and Ramirez?
2007-08-01 13:47:20
192.   JL25and3
191 Well, that was my point. Jeter's worth far more to the Yankees than they could ever get in a trade for him - but that doesn't mean I'd consider him untouchable. Give me a good enough deal and I'd do it.
2007-08-01 13:53:09
193.   Mike T
"All the while I'm yelling at the radio that he should find Bobby Valentine and service his manhood for getting to the WS with an outfield of Agbayani/Payton/Perez."

I recommend this for enshrinement in the comment hall of fame.

2007-08-01 13:59:36
194.   Mike T
183 NFL teams are the only employers I have ever seen who will reward you for not showing up to work.
2007-08-01 14:01:19
195.   Vandelay Industries
One way to force Torre's hand would be to pull two guys from the pen and replace them with position players. Five starters, four relievers actually worth using, and one mop up guy. Cahsman have the balls to do it, ummm, no. And for Joe's edification, he is not "part of this team," he is an employee and manager of the team. He isn't manager and GM. His job is to manage the players available to him, not to take a large role in deciding which players those will be.
2007-08-01 14:06:03
196.   Vandelay Industries
194

It is pretty funny and routine these days. Strahan is under contract, that's it and that's all. Either you play, or the team should be able to void the contract if it so chooses. Contracts require mutuality or language that clearly states one party is relinquishing a right otherwise owed to him or her. NFL action puts the team at a disadvantage when a player cannot be prepared to play, and its only recourse is to fine that player. But that's just one of many reasons the NFL is an absolute joke as a professional sports league.

Anyone catch the new ATT commercial with Clemens? KInd of funny.

2007-08-01 14:07:05
197.   Raf
187 If you look around, as a whole, MLB has become more fan friendly. MiLB has become more fan friendly. That's not something that can solely be attributed to Jeter. As for the pre-teen girls, if they don't go ga-ga over Jeter, then they'll go ga-ga for someone else. That's their nature :)

But in general, we agree; I wouldn't trade him for the sake of trading him, but if the right deal comes along, sure I'd move him.

2007-08-01 14:19:23
198.   Z Man
Wow fella's, I leave for 2 hours and now we're talking about hypothetical Jeter trades... I like it haha.
2007-08-01 14:22:17
199.   JL25and3
195 I promised I wouldn't get back into this, but...you make it sound like Torre is somehow usurping power. Of course he's part of the management team. Furthermore, any general manager would be stupid not to seek - and give considerable weight to - input from the team's manager (especially a 12-year manager with a record of success). And I think that's what happens.

Ten-man pitching staffs used to be the rule, but that's when there were 4-man rotations. I think teams should start going back to 4-man rotations, but until they do, the 10-man staff is a fantasy.

Everything I see says that Cashman trusts Torre's judgment. In the past, he's certainly done pretty well with that. I see no reason to believe that they're working at cross-purposes, or that they ever have done so.

2007-08-01 14:24:05
200.   JL25and3
197 Yes, but Yankee Stadium was a bit more than that - it was considered a hostile and dangerous environment to bring a family. It didn't help that George kept talking about how bad the neighborhood was.

It wasn't all Jeter, but in the case of the Yankees in particular, I think he's been an important force.

Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2007-08-01 14:25:35
201.   cult of basebaal
hmmm, this is amusing ... anyone else remember a week or so ago when petey linked to a blog by mike pagliarulo that went out of its way to rip the decisions and acquisitions made by brian cashman???

~~~~~~~

Yankee GM Brian Cashman has come under some heavy fire for his job performance - acquisitions such as Carl Pavano, Kyle Farnsworth and Josh Phelps plus the deals to get rid of Gary Sheffield and Randy Johnson - but in regard to the $46 million signing of Kei Igawa, his most vocal critic, ex Yankee third baseman Mike Pagliarulo, would be advised to get a memory check.
Amid all the "Who was the scout who recommended Igawa?" outrage being directed at Cashman, Pagliarulo, who heads up the international scouting service Turf Dirt, has been at the forefront. A recent blog on Pagliarulo's Web site contained this scathing indictment of Cashman's job performance: "Igawa could potentially be one of the worst free-agent signings ever - in Mike Hampton territory. Dare we say another Pavano? At least Hampton did have stretches of decent production after he left Colorado. Igawa, on the other hand, might never be better than what he is now - a Triple-A pitcher with an attitude who is at best a back-end starter on a second division team. The Yankees chose not to use (Cashman's) Japan consultants, who told him to walk away from Igawa. The consultants knew about the Igawa holdout in spring training 2005 in Japan and how Igawa then laid down that year and wasn't productive at all. Important information that is interpreted through consulting and difficult to put in scouting reports."
In other words, Cashman, in signing Igawa (who was sent to the minors on Friday), ignored the advice of Pagliarulo's company, whose services the Yankees have employed the last couple of years. The only problem is, Cashman didn't ignore Pagliarulo's report. Here's what it really said: "(Igawa) is considered one of the best starters in Japan and is having a good season. He is doing a good job of moving the ball around the zone and seems to be conserving himself throughout the game ... He showed a good split and was adding on to his fastball in tough situations. He has enough to be a fourth or fifth starter in the U.S."
The report goes on to list Igawa as one of the top 10 pitchers in Japan. Nothing about any holdout or attitude problems.
So unless we've missed something here, a scout who recommended Igawa to Cashman is the same person bashing him for signing Igawa: Mike Pagliarulo. Didn't he know there was a paper trail? Shame on you, Pags.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2007/07/29/2007-07-29_halls_vet_committee_votes_for_changes.html

2007-08-01 14:25:57
202.   tommyl
199 I agree here. I have nothing wrong with Cash asking for Joe's input on a player. However, if Joe says, "You can get him, but I won't ever play him." Now that's a bigger problem. The first situation is constructive, the latter is not.
2007-08-01 14:26:50
203.   tommyl
201 Yeah that's old news. I believe I started a Cash is great/sucks posting war with that story two days ago.
2007-08-01 14:33:03
204.   cult of basebaal
203 ah, that's what i get for being out of the loop on vacation ... soooo ... no need for anyone to start flogging dead horses again on my behalf ... speaking of which, where has jim been the last couple of days ... i was expecting all sorts of obvious responses from him yesterday ...

;)

2007-08-01 14:36:38
205.   tommyl
204 I think when he saw that they might actually get rid of Cairo because of Betemit he self-combusted.
2007-08-01 14:42:40
206.   Bama Yankee
204 You haven't heard? Alex and Cliff traded Jim Dean for Z Man 103 and a PTBNL (poster to be named later). Of course the deal is pending physicals (rumor is that Jim might have a problem with carpal tunnel and the trade could fall through).
2007-08-01 14:43:01
207.   Raf
200 Yes, but once again, baseball has been setting attendance records. Sure it helps that the Yanks have made the playoffs every year since 1995, and Steinbrenner stopped running down the neighborhood, but attendance overall has been on the rise.

Funny thing is that they've stopped "winning" championships and are drawing more than ever. Attendancewise, it's going to be crazy the next few years between the closing of this stadium and the opening of the new one.

2007-08-01 14:52:34
208.   cult of basebaal
206 ooooh, PTBNL ... does that work by us getting to choose from a select list of posters over at LoHUD (the minor leagues [A Ball?] of the yankees blogosphere)?
2007-08-01 14:56:38
209.   cult of basebaal
206 and ... what's the closest analogue to that trade in the real world??? Matt Morris to Pittsburgh?
2007-08-01 14:58:01
210.   Bama Yankee
208 Good point. If the PTBNL comes from LoHUD maybe we should just keep Jim (after all, Jim Dean with a bad case of carpal tunnel might not be that bad compared to what we would get in return)...

(sorry Jim, wherever you are)
;-)

2007-08-01 14:59:09
211.   Raf
209 I'm still trying to understand the reasoning for that trade. Is Pirates pitching that bad? And if so, they couldn't do better than Morris?
2007-08-01 15:01:08
212.   cult of basebaal
lineups been posted:

Cabrera CF
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Matsui LF
Posada C
Cano 2B
Phillips 1B
Duncan DH

not sure why karstens came up instead of The Warrior, though ... unless it was a case of promoting someone joey joe joe might actually break the glass on ...

2007-08-01 15:12:25
213.   monkeypants
212 I assume that they are looking for the mythical "longman", even though no pitcher ever seems to go for more than one or at most two innings.
2007-08-01 15:21:34
214.   cult of basebaal
213 except being the "longman" is the only reason Henn was brought up and is on the roster ... since he's obviously the 3rd lefty and the final option out of the pen ...
2007-08-01 16:00:38
215.   monkeypants
214 Right you are. I suspect that Torre trusts Karstens more, so he will be used ahead of Henn. In turn, Henn will be the next pitcher demoted.
2007-08-01 16:08:24
216.   Vandelay Industries
I have to admit, it was pretty cool watching Garnett throw out the first pitch at Fenway.
2007-08-01 16:10:29
217.   Vandelay Industries
215

Winning could actually hurt us down the road, as they might not call Joba up, and if they do, he will have had little or no use if we keep winning. Then if we hit the skids, Joe will go right back to the same old formula. Make any sense?

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