Late to the party on Cliff's earlier notes on off-season plans. Agreed that the original SI piece was content-free. I'm chiming in here, as the latest thread (and am afraid to watch tonight, honestly, Insufferable, Thy Name is BoSox if they pull this one out).

I'm all for swapping Teixerira at 20 million for Giambi at same price. As long as we don't expect Teix to be MVP good, which you used to be able to expect for that money. He DOES bring excellent D, which is an asset.

On the mound ... CC and only CC, though I admit to watching Sveum try to destroy him down the stretch and worrying. (If we can't have him, the Brewers decided, NO ONE will!) Was it SIX starts in a row on 3 days rest for a rent-a pitcher? I can imagine the conversations between CC's agents and the Brewer manager.

Sabathia, Wang, Joba ... that'll do me for the top of the rotation just fine. I'd take Mussina back for sure, and let the team braintrust evaluate the truth of Pettitte's explanation for wearing down late (he didn't work out as much as usual) to make that call. I think he's okay at the back end as a 2nd lefty. Hughes? Cross fingers, remember how passionate so many people were about him 12 months ago? A year is a long time. Is IPK even on the radar?

In short, I just want the two premium free agent blends there. And I'd be looking hard for a CF in a trade - though the pickings are slim and I don't call Sarge Jr pickings. I don't much want Pudge, but we may need to do it, if Jorge's about to be a weird DH/1stbase/maybe catcher dude.

0 wow, a rap reference in the title that i actually get! : ) that was actually a cool LL tune and this is coming from someone that abhors rap as much - if not more, even! - than the shit sox!!!

1 it looks like Pudge somehow slipped into Type A status. there's no reason to bring him back. he 'earned' $13 mil this year, so he'd be real pricey if he accepted arb. plus, he's gonna wanna start and we're already on the books for $2 mil next year w/ "name that Molina". cashman said no side deals have been discussed - thus far? - but it would be cool to offer I-Rod arb, have him decline, and us get yet 2 more draft picks. cashman needs to be super smart this offseason. if he plays his cards right, we can get some real good draft picks...

i hope moose comes back, i really do! pettitte seems to be a lock for a year. i hope he takes a paycut. he should do. i'm down with CC and Tex, as well...

i don't see how in the hell Tampa can win tonight, but... GO RAYS!!!

2 I"ll be following the usual Gameday chat, but am also in no doubt that the Sox will win..poor Tampa, they were so close...what a collapse...

3 i've got a gig this evening. it's short, but we might grab a bite to eat after. i should still be able to catch the last hour or so and i'll, of course, check in here at the banter.

spun Andrew Hill Judgement! today. holy shit, what a great record!!!

On Friday I wrote that, as a non-betting man, I would have bet the Christmas fund account on the Rays winning game #6. Well, it'll be a 'homemade-type gift' Christmas at my house this year.

Then I added that if it goes to game #7, I would bet the house on the Sox. Well, I'm not for being homeless, especially with winter coming (even though it'll be a crappy Christmas), but since it's before the first pitch, I'm changing my bet to the Rays.

Lester was "so-so" in game #3. And these are STILL the young, resilient, speedy, go-go Rays of 2008. I see the Rays taking an early 2-0 lead and holding on, eventually winning 5-4.

You read it here first ...

About the only thing I can say is "Let's go Tampa!"

And how about them G-men. Sucks not being able to watch the game, but anytime Dallas loses it's a good day.

2 We'll have to fix that, my friend. You likely haven't listened to quality stuff, especially if your only access is by commercial venues. I don't listen much to rap anymore simply because the good stuff is buried by the ig'nant and corporately-sponsored musique concrete.

3 Joe Maddon got cute after Game 4 and tried to protect against the loss instead of going for the kill. The stats supported his move, but in subsequent moves Maddon panicked and overmananged. I still have faith the Rays will win despite Maddon and the rejuved Dud Sox. Go Garza!

5 Homelessness is not fun. Nevertheless, if you were a betting man I would recommend some safe motels to camp out in should this game go the way we otherwise hope. That would make Christmas a little better >;)

Sad to say, we better get used to the Red Sox as the next dynasty. They'll surpass the 1996-2000 Yankees at this pace (titles, memorable comebacks, clutchiness, etc), and will probably set a record for consecutive WS games won. More books, more commercials, more national branding of the Red Sox Nation. Red Sox caps and merchandise are going to be everywhere, in every stadium, as a marker of cool/faux cool for years to come (as the Yankees logo used to be).

We think it's bad that Gammons extols the RS model of team-building on a regular basis, but we're going to be seeing even more of this from writers everywhere as they keep finding ways to win. They're the model franchise and it's not going to change anytime soon.

We may not catch up until 2011, if that.

8 it hurts Max..it hurts..but you are right...

8 Hardly. At what pace? Two WS per four years? Maybe three if they win tonight and go on to win the series.

The current red Sox "dynasty" is not even a dynasty. When they win three in a row and four out of five, then we can talk.

Until then, I am not worried about a consistent second place team as the model franchise.

10 Er, that should have read "maybe three in five years."

The 1996-2001 Yankees were one of the four or five greatest dynasties in the history of the game. The 2004 and 2007 Red Sox are about as historic as, say, the 1964/1967 Cardinals.

If they win this year AND next year, they might be as impressive as the mid-60s Dodgers or, better, the 70s A's. Their repeated wild card march to the series has a few years to go before it can match the real dynasties in the game's long history.

11 Second!

between the Sox inevitable win and the Rush Limbaugh email that just randomly appeared in my inbox from mysterious sources...it's not a good monday morning here...

A Lester perfecto in game 7 would be the perfect ending to the ALCS. gag.

13 If I may, why do you so frequently introduce political commentary into the threads? I don't care to hear your disapproving comment about Rush Limbaugh--and I certainly will not share with you here what political emails and other propaganda that I find irritating.

Let's talk baseball.

Now, it would be nice if the Rays could make Lester work a little bit this inning. I have a good feeling about the 4th and 5th.

15 Good morning MP, long time no see?
15 my morning is equally ruined when I get endless emails from the Democrats Abroad group..today just happened to be Rush, along with 3 from Amazon and two from sources I cannot mention on a family blog..point being: not working spam blocker plus Sox victory = bad morning. not sure how that qualifies as "political commentary"..

as to baseball, what do the Rays have to do to get to Lester?

Just what I ordered. Talent on loan from god. : )

17 Not sure. Nt swinging at the first pitch with two outs, number 9 hitter up would have helped. They have a couple of nice swings, but Lester is hitting just about all his spots, so there is not much they really can do.

Ahhh...a nice lead-off hit. That's a start.

17 Perhaps I "Rushed" to judgment on political commentary. But let's just say I have never heard you complain about Democrats Abroad or any more left leaning group or individual. I snooped around here several days ago to see you (I think) start a conversation about the debates.

Anyway, sorry--I probably overreacted.

20 "no worries" as they say down under..keeping it to baseball then: Can the Phils beat the Sox? their lineup is very top heavy (as is the Sox) but I don't trust their pitching.. (already giving this game to Boston, with the inevitable Riverdance celebration after the final K)..

and as I typed that Pena brings in the tying run! Huzzah!!

21 I try to remain rational, but my gut tells me that if the Sox go to the WS, the Phils will roll over and die.

Really, the Red Sox were not that good this year, at least when you look at the numbers. Very good, yes, but not some sort of juggernaut.

The Phils match up with them in terms of run differential (only about 20 or 30 run difference). But still, my gut...

Another good start. Come on Rays, score a couple here and make me look like a genius 19 .

23 Not to mention they will not have played a real game in exactly a week. The Rockies had 9 days off from the NLCS to the World Series and we all know how that turned out. : /
Say hey, Willie, A lead off double for Aybar.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but the Rays really should bunt here.

So much for the bunt. Hopefully no DP now.

I am a genius 16 !!!

was called away and missed the action! can they hold a 2-1 lead? will David Price get a chance to whiff Papi?

29 I thought they shoulda bunted the #9 batter w/ first and second, no outs. And I normally hate the bunt.

I have no faith that they can hold 2-1 lead. But I do think that if they can keep Gritty and Papi from doing damage in this inning, they have a crack at some more runs in the bottom of the 6th. Gotta get to Lester in the 6th, because the Sox BP is stacked tonight.

I don't know many sights more beautiful than a strike'em out throw'em out DP with David Ortiz and Dusty Pedroia.

hell muthafukin' yeah!!! strike 'em out, throw 'em out! don't let this one get away, tampa!!!

just gettin' in from work. eating dinner. i'll catch up on the comments and the game soon...

GO RAYS!!!

wow..VERY shaky call from Frnacona there with how poor Ortiz has been swinging recently..and a GREAT break for the Rays!

does maddon send garza out for the 7th? i think you should throw him out there and see what he has left. anyone gets on by a solid hit, then get him outta there...

Peña swinging at the first pitch did not help. Grrr..I predicted the Rays would drive the stake in this inning. Maybe not.

damn that was a quick inning. fuck.

go-go-garza!!!

34 I agree. Batter-by-batter at this point. The Sox are really set up in the BP tonight, and you know Papelbon will go two. If I'm the Rays, I try to squeeze as much as I can from the starter.

Garza v. Drew does worry me.

just settin' up the DP...

shit, was that garza's wife they just showed? damn, another hot blonde! i shoulda been a pro ball player... : ~

He's gassed. ANd another righty-lefty matchup.

who's in the pen?

Please don't let Varitek play the hero here...

You're a bum Varitek. No need for you to get an important hit.

I know he's the captain and all, but why wouldn't Tito PH for 'Tek.

That said, I can't say that I am unhappy with the result.

GARZA!!!

score more runs now. thank you, please!

I was thinking that Francona should pinch-hit for Tek. I was afraid if I posted it, he would have gotten a hit.

HUGE Whiff!!
40 you mean all the daydreams about having a musicians lifestyle are not true?? :)

Remember when Red Sox fans said that Tek was equal or even better than Posada? Was he ever better?

49 Posada has a shot at the HOF...Varitek good but more a member of the "scrappy/gritty/intangible" Hall...Jeter a member of both of those I would imagine..

49 He was pretty darn good in 2003 and 2004, and he still wasn't as good as Posada.

BOOM.

I write this too late, but I am equally surprised that Tito stuck with Lester this long. He has the advantage in BP.

Man, I am going to miss baseball.

48 well, truth be told, i played the part of "rockstar" when i was touring the UK. i was fortunate enough to be dating a supermodel girl who looked like a barbie doll. she even moved to america for a spell. now? shit, she's dating the freaking singer of Dragonforce, so i'm told! that's the metak band that's huge from the guitar hero video game. whatever, i probably dodged a bullet there... : /

but, no, i'm not your typical professional musician or drummer or anything like that. i'm just a boring baseball geek... : )

willy aybar -- wow! that's a double and a homer for him today. a year ago, he was here in atlanta and had some major off the field issues. good for him.

GO RAYS!!!

Well, the Formerly Satanic Rays are definitely not rolling over and playing dead.

Now it's scary bullpen time.

I want to believe, but can't until the last out.

I have an irrational dislike for the Cora family.

Fuck.

Cripe...Garza still in the game!

And right on cue...

holy crap, it's still garza!

i guess it might not be so bad with the extra run and the bottom of the order up. not sure i want him to face dusty again though. even with 2 outs.

oh no. the sure-handed bartlett. that sucks. what happened there? boo!!!

shit. here's the tampa bullpen. fuck!!!

Pretty damn good effort by Mr. Garza.

63 And right after the announcers were carping about pitching and defense, citing the SS in particular.

Go for the gusto here...bring in the closer. Actually, is the Rays closer any good? I don't even know who it is.

Balfour and Wheeler both can deal..but am still very nervous here..

Forget Cora on first...just get outs.

oh no. here it comes... : /

Unbelievable. I may need to turn this game off soon.

Well, here we go again...

HIt into a dp you little shit.

Good lord. I don't need to get his bent out of shape for the Rays. I'm hitting the hay.

Somehow Oriz will bat with men on this inning AND in the 9th,

I can see Papi trying to lay one down.

It's gonna be funny in the Spring, going back to hating the Rays. Damn, I'm caught up in this....and scared!

70 yeah, i hear ya. i just went down to the laundry room instead of watching...

Wow...why go to second base there? I thought he was safe.

ok, that's a start. one more out fellas...

74 i hope you're not prescient!

78 No, he definitely wasn't safe. He would have been if he'd slid to the bag.

Bad play by Crisp.

I guess it's the closer for four outs. The Rays have shot all their bullets now. If the Sox come back to tie, it's over--they win the longterm BP battle.

Does Tito PR for Ortiz?

76 if they win tonight, i'll get a head start in next weeks' series! : )

Wow, great call, terrible slide. Not out of the woods yet for the 8th...

82 you would go for Philly? i think a Rays title would be amazing..

man, for some reason, it irks me how both darling and martinez stress the first syllable in ortiz's name. OR-teez. who knows, perhaps that's the correct pronunciation, but it bothers me. should be or-TEEz. whatever.

get the gross lumberjack out. thank you, please!

84 I would actually pull for the Phils. I guess I have this weird sense that expansion teams should have to wait longer until winning the big one. I don't know why.

85 I just keep wishing David Ortiz would somehow magically turn into Junior Ortiz when he comes up with men on base.

84 i'd be cool either way. but yeah, i'd be more for the phillies. i went to Penn State and have tons of ties to Pennsylvania and friends from the Philly area. plus, it's not in my league and it's not a winner from my division that helped keep my pinstriped heroes out of the playoffs. i want tampa to win tonight in a HUGE way and if they get the title, good for them, but i'll be pulling more for the Phils...

Put...in...the...m-tha...f-ckin'...closer.

crap. well, at least there's a force at every base. 5th pitcher of the inning on his way in. anyone know who it's gonna be?

85 You're right, they're wrong. Or-TEEZ.

price for a lefty? can kazmir face a batter two days later?

OK, so NOW would you PR for Ortiz in scoring position?

85 But then, Bob Sheppard has always screwed up Posada's name. It's HOR-hay, not hor-HAY.

91 cool. now it may even bother me more!!! : /

92 I was wondering that. You would like to think that he's available for a batter or three.

93 not after he hit that triple the other night. ; )

Your fortune is bound to run out, Drew. Throw strikes, Price. Good ones.

well, it's the kid. c'mon Price!

WAHOO!!!!!!!!!

And the kid gets the call.

So, what torturous way can Pedroia and Ortiz end up batting next inning?

Let's go Rays, steal one more here of (I assume) Papelbon.

Man, that Price kid has serious sh*t!

I heart David Price.

That was nasty.

Wow. Not even a look to the 3rd base ump for the check swing call. What will the replay show?
It be a damn shame if he held up. : )

bay, kotsay, vagitek in the 9th. tito might pinch hit for "C". anyone gets on, i imagine lowrie will bat for cora.

Yankees in Spring Training said Price was filthy...

Yankees in Spring Training said Price was filthy...

bartlett has got to feel good, getting off the hook after that leadoff error...

OK, I really, really hate the term "bullpen by committee." A bullpen IS a committee.

Now, "closer by committee" is another story.

I just wanted to share that.

109 that's what we're here for, bro!

shit, i've gotta get down to the laundry room. not sure if i should go or wait...

The odds on a nice, easy 1,2,3 innning are quite slim, methinks.

Be afraid of David Price, Banterers, be very afraid...

(live chat over at The Griddle too fyi)

111 Ortiz bats his inning...no doubt.

i've got 5 minutes. make quick work, price!!!

112 i would've been petrified if i were in the box for that inside fastball, that's for damn sure!!! yikes!

i have a nice collection of cowbells, jamblocks, ice bells and other similar percussion instruments at my drum studio. shoulda brought 'em home with me...

aw man, he totally went! BOLLOCKS!!!

Oh please don't blow this now. Not again. I'm having 2004 flashbacks.

fucking bullshit. he struck his ass out. crap, now OR-teez is getting closer to batting this inning. double play ball, please!

Nice non strike 3 call. : (

why would this be his last batter? vagitek sucks from either side of the plate. is lowrie a lefty?

They are squeezing him NOW?!

2 more to go...

nice! 2 more outs please.

still, should be 2 outs already. how bout a sweet little DP right about now...

i'm glad price is still in!

can he K the side??

1 more to go! the kid has 3 k's now. 4 really...

Go get em' Price. 1 more, baby!

1 more to go...

props to Maddon for sticking with Price here.

Go Phillies! : )

PRICELESS!!!

fastball down the middle 0-1
ground out to second

RAYS WIN!!! RAYS WIN!!! RAYS WIN!!!

Go back home to Boston you shlubs.

130 i got yer back, bro! : )

Yaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

(Ok, I admit I'm a hater.)

good for tampa!!!

dusty can shave now...

YAYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!
no more Red Sox Nation this year, BOO-YahH!!!

The thread now comes full circle. Now, can we please to put to rest talk 8 9 of the Red Sox "dynasty."

Wow, if you had told me in April that the Rays would win the AL Pennant, by beating Boston in Game 7 with David Price getting a 4 out save. Well, I'd have questioned your sanity. Amazing!

More graciously, though, good for the Rays, they deserve it!

B.J. Upton could spend months roaming a high school w/o anyone questioning his age.
Good for the Rays.

8 Reverse mojo is so, so sweet. :-) :-)

It feels nice to write this: GO TO HELL BOSTON.

Thank God!
Winters up here are already tough enough.

138 That's exactly what I predicted.

i am sooooooo happy, thrilled and relieved that boston is finished. fuck them all and fuck 'em hard...

upton's gonna get the lcs mvp...right?!

"fuck them all and fuck 'em hard..."
I love drummer talk.

wow, garza got the mvp. that was a good trade!

isn't this the first elimination game the Sawks have lost since....Aaron Boone?

137 IMO there have only been four actual dynasties in sports --

1. The 1922-1962 Yankees (20 championships in 41 years);

2. The Montreal Canadians from 1952-1978 (16 titles in 27 years);

3. The 1957 to 1986 Celtics (with 16 titles in 30 years); and

4. The 1964 to 1975 UCLA Bruins (with 10 titles in 12 yeas).

I am sure that there are other sports that can be added, but these are the ones I see.

The common thread to me is that a particular team wins roughly half the time over a long stretch or has at least 10 titles over a stretch. I don't consider the 1996-2000 Yankees to be a "dynasty" under that definition (nor the Bulls with 6 titles inside a decade) and I sure as hell don't consider any sox team to have ever been a dynasty.

from the side, garza's got a bit of a pettitte honker! ooh, i was not expecting his voice to sound like that...

146 stick 'em anyway ya can! ; )

rap "music"? ugh, that's a paradox, an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms. : /

wow, looks like ron darling got married in the last year or so since i've seen him. i guess he won't be hitting on atlanta hookers anymore! least i hope he won't...

149 Tough criteria. Six titles in less than a decade not a dynasty? Whew.

In any case, by whatever reasonable criteria one uses, the current Sox "run" is nowhere near a dynasty, no matter how much some people throw the term around.

I'm so pleased. So, SO pleased. Good job there Rays. Oh yeah, fuck you Boston.

151 keep an open mind though thelarmis..was listening to those crazy jazz fiends A Tribe Called Quest on the weekend, Ron Carter sat in with them giving live bass...if he gives the seal of approval (and you KNOW he has chops) then rappers can't be all bad, right?

can't wait to watch this game tonight on replay!!

152 I agree it is tough criteria. These days if a team wins back-to-back reporters start using the term Dynasty.

I realize that in sports we're using the term euphemistically but I still think it should be a bit longer than one decade.

154 i think i had one of their albums once. ron carter is a GOD! i played live drums on a coupla hip-hop trax several years ago here at a studio in atlanta. i can't stomach the fake drums, no tonal center, most of the lyrical content and the vocal delivery. i have a very open mind and dig lotsa different styles of music. i've tried, but i just cannot get into any type of rap, hip-hop, dance, trance, techno, jungle, drums n bass, and the like. it's just not for me and that's all good. hey, i am a massive aficionado of many different styles of heavy metal and i'm sure there are loads of rap fans on this board that can't stomach that genre, as a whole. at least they're all playing their own instruments!!! (well, most of 'em, anyway...)

152 i agree about the Bulls.

156 fair enough, i recall a few Judas Priest records in my youth but since becoming a jazz head..metal just won't cut it!

Rays in 7, a classic WS that ends with B.J.Upton laying down a suicide squeeze off of Brad Lidge..

149 152 In case I wasn't clear the first time, my original post 8 was an intentional provocation designed to bring about the opposite result...through nothing more than sheer superstition. :-)

Living in Boston, though, I've seen at least two columnists talk about a budding Red Sox "dynasty", and make similar hyperbolic references to Papelbon as "approaching" Mo's playoff success as a big game pitcher. So I may never have believed the dynasty talk, but I was parroting the mood of RS optimists prior to this game.

Oh man, I am so happy for the Rays right now. Thursday sucked on so many levels, but the Rays proved they could perform the way they had all year when they were up against the wall.

How about Jason Varitek in this ALCS? I honest to God think I could have done as well at the plate.

158 i hear ya, man! i'm actually a big Metal fan, collector, historian and i even do some liner notes writing and reviews and stuff. i don't enjoy playing it much, but i love collecting it and listening to it! : )

right now, i'm on a big Blue Note kick. framing album covers around my place and putting up pictures from the blue note album covers book around my studio. of course, buying and listening to the cd's, too! i just typed out a list of BN cd's i have to email to you...at some point.

160 you could have done as well going up with a pair of your drumsticks! what size do you play?

159 Well, it worked!!

155 It's so tough to compare the the older dynasties that you cite to contemporary sports teams. It's simply much harder these days with competitive drafts, more teams, more specialization, and longer playoffs for teams to repeat what the Canadiens and Yankees and Celtics did in the past.

I tend to look at five to ten year periods, but expect greater dominance over that short period. 1996-2001 Yankees were definitely a dynasty in my book, as were the the early seventies A's (for that matter). I would subdivide your 1920s-1960s Yankees dynasty into a number of shorter dynasties.

Anyway, to each his own.

TBS did a very good job with the telecasts. I like the final closing with the Bon Jovi concert being the theme.

164 Agreed. Free Agency has players changing teams and teams with new duynamics.

163 Hell yeah!

As far as dynasties go, I think all the points made have been good ones. The term does tend to get thrown about a bit too loosely these days, but Yankee/Canadien/UCLA level dominance in this day and age just isn't realistic given the nature of competition.

How much do you guys think the Sox miss Manny right about now? My Red Sox friends (and I have a few of them) all said it meant nothing to trade him, remember we traded Nomar, etc. etc. etc.

Told you so, Sox fans. HA!