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Cincinnati Reds
2008-06-20 12:56
by Cliff Corcoran
Note: The Bronx Banter blog has moved to bronxbanterblog.com.

Cincinnati Reds

2007 Record: 33-39 (.458)
2007 Pythagorean Record: 71-91 (.441)

2008 Record: 33-41 (.446)
2008 Pythagorean Record: 32-42 (.431)

Manager: Dusty Baker
General Manager: Walt Jocketty

Home Ballpark (multi-year Park Factors): Great American Ball Park (104/105)

Who's Replacing Whom:

Joey Votto replaces Scott Hatteberg
Jay Bruce replaces Josh Hamilton
Paul Bako has taken playing time from Dave Ross and Javier Valentin
Corey Patterson replaces Jeff Conine
Jolbert Cabrera is the latest to fill in for Alex Gonzalez (DL)
Andy Phillips is filling in for Ryan Freel (DL)
Paul Janish is filling in for Jeff Keppinger (DL)
Edinson Volquez replaces Matt Belisle (minors)
Johnny Cueto replaces Kyle Lohse and Bobby Livingston (DL)
Francisco Cordero replaces David Weathers as closer
Weathers replaces Todd Coffey (DL)
Jeremy Affeldt replaces Mike Stanton
Bill Bray inherits Jon Coutlangus's innings
Mike Lincoln replaces Victor Santos

25-man Roster:

1B - Joey Votto (L)
2B - Brandon Phillips (R)
SS - Jolbert Cabrera (R)
3B - Edwin Encarnacion (R)
C - Paul Bako (L)
RF - Ken Griffey Jr. (L)
CF - Jay Bruce (L)
LF - Adam Dunn (L)

Bench:

L - Corey Patterson (OF)
R - Norris Hopper (OF)
R - Dave Ross (C)
R - Paul Janish (IF)
R - Andy Phillips (IF)
S - Javier Valentin (C)

Rotation:

R - Aaron Harang
R - Edinson Volquez
R - Johnny Cueto
R - Bronson Arroyo

Bullpen:

R - Francisco Cordero
R - Jared Burton
L - Jeremy Affeldt
R - David Weathers
L - Bill Bray
R - Mike Lincoln
R - Gary Majewski

15-day DL: R - Ryan Freel (UT), R - Jeff Keppinger (IF), R - Jerry Hairston Jr. (UT), R - Josh Fogg, R - Todd Coffey
60-day DL: R - Alex Gonzalez (SS), L - Kent Mercker, L - Bobby Livingston

Typical Lineup

L - Jay Bruce (CF)
R - Jolbert Cabrera (SS)
L - Ken Griffey Jr. (RF)
R - Brandon Phillips (2B)
L - Adam Dunn (LF)
R - Edwin Encarnacion (3B)
L - Joey Votto (1B)
L - Paul Bako (C)

Comments (272)
Show/Hide Comments 1-50
2008-06-20 15:27:02
1.   Alex Belth
Has anyone seen Volquez pitch?
2008-06-20 15:32:24
2.   mehmattski
I am very excited to see Volquez pitch against my team, probably more excited than I've ever been to watch an opposing pitcher take on the Yankees in the regular season. I'm also intrigued by Jay Bruce... does Baker really bat him lead-off?

Well, score one for inter-league play on this one. I have Extra Innings so I could watch Volquez pitch whenever, but it's extra special to see how he does against the hitters I'm most familiar with.

2008-06-20 15:37:56
3.   Alex Belth
What's the scouting report on him?
2008-06-20 15:41:33
4.   mehmattski
Mid 90s fastball with some bite, change in the low-80s for a big contrast. He also has thrown a limited number of breaking pitches- a curveball and a slider. Here's a link to his pitch f/x data:

http://tinyurl.com/4bybrm

Lotta swinging strikes on that changeup.

2008-06-20 15:49:00
5.   Alex Belth
Thanks! Dude, I've never seen that sight. It's amazing. Can you do one for Moose?
2008-06-20 15:54:53
6.   cult of basebaal
heh ...

well, moose has had 229 Called Strikes ... 165 Strikes via Fouls

and 34 swings and misses

at least in the games that there is pitch f/x data for

eeks

2008-06-20 15:55:00
7.   mehmattski
Sure thing- http://tinyurl.com/4s8p65

You can dial down the data by pitch type, by batter faced, by count, speed, break, and the result of the pitch.

For example, here's Kyle Farnsworth's home runs:

http://tinyurl.com/5ceu5a

And all of Joba's pitches resulting in a swinging strike:

http://tinyurl.com/5wznm8

Pitch f/x is revolutionizing baseball analysis, and that site is an awesome reason why.

2008-06-20 16:07:56
8.   Just fair
7 That site'll make your head spin. Wow.
If anyone wants to see video of the ambidexterous pitcher for the S.I. Yanks, check out Was Wastching.
2008-06-20 16:08:16
9.   Jeb
Greetings from tier 36 fellow banterers. Is Jorge hurt? 2 games off in a row......

Let's go Yan-kees!!!

2008-06-20 16:09:42
10.   mehmattski
9 Hey Jeb! Enjoy the game!
2008-06-20 16:09:50
11.   RIYank
Fun pitching match-up plus Andy Phillips! But I'm about to go watch "Get Smart". Weak reviews, but I'm really looking forward to it. I'll still catch the late innings.
2008-06-20 16:10:11
12.   rbj
Well I'm stuck with the Cincy announcers. We'll see how good/bad they are.
2008-06-20 16:10:48
13.   SF Yanks
Wow, I thought he roped that one. Guess not.
2008-06-20 16:10:53
14.   mehmattski
Speed kills... the Reds' rally.
2008-06-20 16:11:35
15.   RIYank
My god! Let's see, if Moose stays this efficient, he could pitch 25 innings tonight.
2008-06-20 16:11:49
16.   cult of basebaal
TWIN KILLING!

giambi el gato!

2008-06-20 16:11:52
17.   Jeb
What a great throw by Bobby!
2008-06-20 16:12:45
18.   OldYanksFan
Kaye called that a great throw by Abreu. It was NOT. Did you catch the tough hop Giambi picked?
2008-06-20 16:12:46
19.   ms october
7 thanks memattski - the "box plot" is really interesting

now, if that site can figure out a way to get rid of kyle - then it will go beyond revolutionary

9 hi jeb - hope you get a good game.
don't see anything anywhere about jorge being hurt - just a guess is that girardi doesn't want to overdo it with him yet and with moose on the mound today is as good a day as any -especially with 2 day games coming up

2008-06-20 16:14:02
20.   OldYanksFan
19 Plus Molina USUALLY catches Moose.
2008-06-20 16:14:19
21.   SF Yanks
This guy's filthy.
2008-06-20 16:14:48
22.   RIYank
Oh, jeb, you're actually at the game right now! Cool. I think this must be a Banter first.
2008-06-20 16:14:51
23.   mehmattski
That changeup is filthy. Same movement as his fastball, just 14 mph slower (yet, faster than Mussina's fastball).
2008-06-20 16:15:29
24.   cult of basebaal
hmmm ... that fastball's got some giddyup ... and that change-up doesn't

he be nasty

2008-06-20 16:16:23
25.   Eirias
I love it when the Yankees play NL teams in Yankee Stadium. It is much like the seminal court case, Baby v. Thief, in the "Candy" case.

(not a lawyer)

2008-06-20 16:17:01
26.   ms october
crap that was a bad jump
2008-06-20 16:17:05
27.   Eirias
So, I guess the Reds are not the Padres. Darn.
2008-06-20 16:18:11
28.   OldYanksFan
Not a good jump by Jetes.
2008-06-20 16:18:20
29.   Yankees Brasil
He was safe, no?
2008-06-20 16:18:29
30.   cult of basebaal
safe

but the ump was on the other side of the call, hard to avoid missing that

2008-06-20 16:19:01
31.   tommyl
Derek is starting to remind me of the old guys in those old pepsi commercials playing volleyball. Derek, you're not 22 anymore! Stop trying to play like you are. Here, have a glass of lemonade and tell me again about how you did things in 1998. Had to run the bases uphill? both ways? and it was snowing?
2008-06-20 16:19:27
32.   OldYanksFan
This could be a boring game.
2008-06-20 16:19:57
33.   tommyl
Seriously, wtf is Derek doing stealing there? You just took the bat out of the greatest and hottest hitter in baseball with a runner on base. Good thinking! Winning baseball!
2008-06-20 16:20:25
34.   tommyl
Ok, I'm still in Europe so its bedtime for me. Hope the rest of you enjoy the game and we pull one out.
2008-06-20 16:20:28
35.   OldYanksFan
OH NO! Is tommyl back? CALL HOMELAND SECURITY!
2008-06-20 16:22:27
36.   SF Yanks
I got a bad feeling that Moose is going to leave one of his tailing fastballs over the middle of the plate at the wrong time.
2008-06-20 16:23:14
37.   OldYanksFan
He did not swing.
I am really sick of bad umping calls when there is no reason.
USE THE 1st BASE UMP!
2008-06-20 16:23:38
38.   SF Yanks
Or a curveball.
2008-06-20 16:23:55
39.   ms october
36 uh like that - which was helped by the short right porch
2008-06-20 16:24:03
40.   dianagramr
35

grrrr ..... even if it WAS a curve

2008-06-20 16:24:05
41.   rbj
Crud.
2008-06-20 16:25:09
42.   SF Yanks
The problem with Moose is that he will get hammered if isn't pretty much perfect with his control. I suppose I'm being Captain Obvious.
2008-06-20 16:25:20
43.   cult of basebaal
36 right idea, wrong pitch
2008-06-20 16:26:39
44.   Alex Belth
Hey mehmattski, can you give me Zito's page for this season too? I know I'm asking a lot. But I really appreciate it bro.
2008-06-20 16:26:40
45.   Yankees Brasil
I sense an A-bomb is coming.
2008-06-20 16:27:42
46.   rbj
Time to break out the Stewart's Cream Soda.
2008-06-20 16:28:52
47.   cult of basebaal
44 just follow one of the previous links, and use the pitcher drop down menu at the top to select zito, then choose the submit query button

=)

2008-06-20 16:31:23
48.   rbj
Gee the Reds' announcers mentioned A-Rod's contract but basically said he's worth it. So there are some intelligent announcers out there.
2008-06-20 16:31:28
49.   cult of basebaal
anything you can do, i can do better!

a-rod is teh awesome!

2008-06-20 16:34:12
50.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Ohayo Gozaimasu! Volquez looks real good...Cito Gaston takes over the Blue Jays..A-Rod with the steal..a great morning here, wake up and watch baseball..havn&t real B.Olney yet, anyone know the latest on Big Papi??
Show/Hide Comments 51-100
2008-06-20 16:34:14
51.   dianagramr
Watch for falling concrete at the new Stadium ...

http://tinyurl.com/4u6fnu

Manhattan prosecutors are investigating whether the leading concrete testing company in the New York area, which has been hired to measure and analyze the strength of the concrete poured at some of the biggest construction projects in the city, failed to do some tests and falsified others, officials involved in the inquiry said on Friday.

The investigation has uncovered problems with tests the company conducted on concrete poured over the last 18 months at the new Yankee Stadium site in the Bronx and the foundation of the Freedom Tower in Lower Manhattan, along with as many as a dozen other large projects, several of the officials said.

The Yankees and the developer of the team's new stadium, along with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, which is building the Freedom Tower, said the concrete used for their structures had been determined to be sound and posed no safety threat. But they acknowledged that they had questions about the company's work.

The investigation centers on allegations that the company in some instances failed to do preliminary tests, including some known as slump tests, and later falsified the results of more sophisticated compression tests, officials said.

2008-06-20 16:35:38
52.   Yankees Brasil
That 3-1 pitch looked a lot like ball.
2008-06-20 16:35:50
53.   OldYanksFan
The 3-1 change was inside. Robbed of another rally.
2008-06-20 16:36:31
54.   mehmattski
44 Here you go, for Zito:
http://tinyurl.com/5vsnky

The folks at The Hardball Times and Baseball Musings have been doing awesome stuff with pitch f/x lately.

2008-06-20 16:38:29
55.   Yankees Brasil
Great play there.
2008-06-20 16:38:40
56.   OldYanksFan
51 That is very serious stuff. When you don't keep a sharp eye on business... look out!
2008-06-20 16:42:04
57.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
51 terrible..last year here they found more than 4 dozen new apartment buildings had shoddy material, companies skimmed off the top and as a result the structures were not earthquake safe..in the most earthquake prone city on earth..
more total randomness, anyone out there have the book called [i think] Green Cathedrals? worth picking up?
2008-06-20 16:43:07
58.   Alex Belth
Thank you again, it is a great feature.
2008-06-20 16:44:43
59.   SF Yanks
Some pretty weak hits off Moose thus far.
2008-06-20 16:46:47
60.   Yankees Brasil
59 Moose looks OK. We need to get the offense going.
2008-06-20 16:49:13
61.   Just fair
According to Pete A.
Jose Molina has 13 doubles. That's more than Giambi (11), Jeter (10) and Melky Cabrera (9).
That's a tad distressing.
2008-06-20 16:52:34
62.   mehmattski
61 Well, each of those players has home runs, which Molina does not have. Molina is still last among Yankees regulars in extra-base hits. It's just that the limit of his extra-base hitting is doubles.
2008-06-20 16:52:37
63.   rbj
Nice play, I thought he was going to be safe.
2008-06-20 16:53:27
64.   ny2ca2dc
63 And then we remember the runner is the slowest man alive.
2008-06-20 16:53:31
65.   SF Yanks
Take advantage fellas!
2008-06-20 16:56:23
66.   Just fair
I think if Damon was currently playing in the college world series, he would still break a couple of aluminum bats a game.
2008-06-20 16:57:00
67.   cult of basebaal
did the lizard just play the infield in for damon's at bat???
2008-06-20 16:57:29
68.   SF Yanks
What's with the massive amount of stealing attempts?
2008-06-20 16:58:50
69.   Yankees Brasil
That's enough with the stealing. It's obviously not working.
2008-06-20 16:59:24
70.   SF Yanks
Holy LOW Batman! What's with this ump?
2008-06-20 16:59:50
71.   rbj
67 Me thinks the ump thought another lizard was just at bat. That pitch was low for a person.
2008-06-20 16:59:52
72.   cult of basebaal
nice mid-shin strike, asshat!
2008-06-20 17:00:05
73.   mehmattski
Memo to Yanks: It's not Michael Barret behind the plate. Other catchers can be more effective. Stealing is only a good idea if you're going to make it at 75% plus.
2008-06-20 17:00:05
74.   randym77
68 I don't get it, either. If it was Javy Valentin behind the plate I could see it. Maybe they've decided they have to play small ball against the Mighty Voltron.
2008-06-20 17:00:17
75.   Just fair
The hand staight up in the air punch out. That's a good one. Jeter, however, was jobbed.
2008-06-20 17:01:01
76.   Yankees Brasil
That was BS. Horrible call.
2008-06-20 17:02:25
77.   ny2ca2dc
The worst umpired season continues.
2008-06-20 17:02:39
78.   Yankees Brasil
Moose better get those calls too. Because so far, he has not.
2008-06-20 17:03:43
79.   ny2ca2dc
78 I think there was one call in Moose's favor that was borderline. But the first CS was questionable, and the Giambi & Jeter K's were terrible.
2008-06-20 17:05:18
80.   mehmattski
Nice throw, Knoblauch
2008-06-20 17:05:55
81.   rbj
Jeebus Robbie. You can't have an easier chance on a throw than that.
2008-06-20 17:06:11
82.   cult of basebaal
79 oh, jeter was definitely safe ... unfortunately the only way you'd see that was to be looking in from centerfield ...

the ump was where he was supposed to be, but unfortunately that was the wrong place to make the right call

it happens ... and is a lot different from the crappy behind the plate umping tonite

2008-06-20 17:06:38
83.   SF Yanks
Excellent job Cano! That really infuriated me. Moose should give him a wedgie for that one.
2008-06-20 17:06:53
84.   cult of basebaal
nice loafing, robbie
2008-06-20 17:07:11
85.   rbj
Molina can't run but he can throw.
2008-06-20 17:07:24
86.   ny2ca2dc
82 we agree

At least Giambi didn't get in the basepath and get killed.

2008-06-20 17:07:33
87.   Just fair
Damn, that was pretty. Pick a big fluffy stuffed animal as your prize, Molina.
2008-06-20 17:08:19
88.   Yankees Brasil
Beautiful throw.
2008-06-20 17:08:29
89.   ny2ca2dc
Holy moly, that was a thing of beauty. There goes Molina, doing some of that catcher shit!
2008-06-20 17:09:18
90.   cult of basebaal
what happened? my mlb.tv feed went to crap after robbie's E ...
2008-06-20 17:10:13
91.   ny2ca2dc
90 Snap throw by Molina to second base (!) picked off the runner.
2008-06-20 17:14:52
92.   OldYanksFan
Both Matsui and Abreu are mini-slumping.
2008-06-20 17:15:53
93.   Yankees Brasil
92 They both hit the ball hard first time up.
2008-06-20 17:16:45
94.   Just fair
How about this rule, if you launch your bat into the stands you are automatically out. Bad play, J.D. Bleh.
2008-06-20 17:16:46
95.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
ugh..Damon looked bad on that one...E7?
2008-06-20 17:17:32
96.   Yankees Brasil
The D is a joke.
2008-06-20 17:17:38
97.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
Double??!! ugh, Kay has his over-enthused fake laughter going tonight..
2008-06-20 17:18:43
98.   ny2ca2dc
oye, that slide could've torn Cano's ACL. scarry.

How is that not a double...

2008-06-20 17:19:00
99.   dianagramr
97

My fantasy team doesn't approve of that scoring ruling

2008-06-20 17:21:02
100.   dianagramr
from the AP:

Star right-hander Carlos Zambrano has a minor strain in his right shoulder but no major structural damage, a team spokesman said after the Cubs' 4-3 victory over the Chicago White Sox on Friday.

Show/Hide Comments 101-150
2008-06-20 17:22:34
101.   Just fair
It is against the natural law of the universe for Moose to pick up a teammate after an error. G-DAMMIT.
2008-06-20 17:23:13
102.   rbj
Crappity crap crap.
2008-06-20 17:23:16
103.   Yankees Brasil
IBB's are never good.
2008-06-20 17:23:27
104.   ms october
molina is pissed
2008-06-20 17:23:41
105.   SF Yanks
This ump is a fucking joke.
2008-06-20 17:24:13
106.   rbj
Yeah, he was safe.
2008-06-20 17:24:29
107.   Just fair
Abreu too an awful route to that ball. That was some fancy ass footwork.
2008-06-20 17:24:32
108.   Yankees Brasil
Yankees are being robbed pretty good by that guy.
2008-06-20 17:24:35
109.   randym77
They're all pissed, but the call was correct.
2008-06-20 17:24:53
110.   SF Yanks
Hmmmm, I take back my comment and my profanity.
2008-06-20 17:25:07
111.   mehmattski
Yup, safe. The runner took a lucky bounce on the slide, I don't think that was intentional at all.
2008-06-20 17:25:29
112.   dianagramr
those runs should at least be unearned ..... (grumble)
2008-06-20 17:26:26
113.   Yankees Brasil
It all started with that IBB. Sure Bruce was 1 for 2, but his hit was a cheap, off the end of the bat one. Why not go after him?
2008-06-20 17:26:27
114.   ny2ca2dc
Abreu's throws have been shit this year. Strong, but way off line. And not even that strong, actually.
2008-06-20 17:27:03
115.   ms october
yeah, guess we have to swallow that one - the guy hooked his foor tight around molina's golve-

did molina not have time to block the plate or did he just think putting the glove on the plate was the better strategy?

2008-06-20 17:29:42
116.   randym77
115 I don't think he had time. We are talking about the slowest man in the world, after all.
2008-06-20 17:29:56
117.   Eirias
Bedard is out of the Seattle game after 36 pitches.
2008-06-20 17:30:38
118.   Eirias
117 No runs, so not due to that.
2008-06-20 17:34:08
119.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
117 whats all the criticism lately of Bedard? stats look ok...
2008-06-20 17:35:06
120.   ms october
ha - dunn just said god damnit when he struck out - does that mean he cares?
2008-06-20 17:36:45
121.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
120 yeah, hes a gamer after all!
2008-06-20 17:37:31
122.   mehmattski
119 A 4.14 ERA (96 ERA+) and a less than 2:1 K:BB ratio is not what the Mariners bargained for, when they sent five prospects to Baltimore.
2008-06-20 17:38:08
123.   ny2ca2dc
120 Clearly not, as he doesn't even like baseball.

I realize having JP in Toronto makes the division easier than it otherwise might, but man that guy is a clown.

2008-06-20 17:38:59
124.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
122 i stand corrected! sending Adam Jones a mistake..this game a bit dull so far...
2008-06-20 17:39:58
125.   Bama Yankee
Jeb, I was hoping you would get a better result than I got on my trip to the Stadium, but it's not shaping up that way.

If you see Andy Phillips give him a big Roll Tide.

2008-06-20 17:40:04
126.   ny2ca2dc
122 It's a little surprising, dontchathink? He pitched real real well last year for a dreadful O's team, so you wouldn't want to just assume he's slacking because he's on a losing team. Though the M's are a special kind of suck.
2008-06-20 17:40:19
127.   mehmattski
124 George Sherrill (clearly not a prospect) is currently the best of the five so far, he's got 24 saves already.
2008-06-20 17:41:34
128.   dianagramr
Video is showing Bedard in dugout holding left arm in pain ...

(Mr. Bavasi .... we want to fire you a 2nd time)

2008-06-20 17:42:33
129.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
126 Mariners collapse indeed fascinating to watch..feel bad for Ichiro, though wonder if it was him who Carlos Silva was referring to when he said 'some guys are just happy to get their two hits, win or lose..'
2008-06-20 17:42:53
130.   mehmattski
Um... did Derek Jeter just make a diving play on a ball behind second base???? What the hell just happened? How close to second was Jeter during that pitch?
2008-06-20 17:44:11
131.   Yankees Brasil
Time for the offense to wake up.
2008-06-20 17:45:39
132.   rbj
OK offense, time to put some runs up on the board. And knock off the stealing.
2008-06-20 17:45:40
133.   OldYanksFan
Cashman about to get Bedard and Ichiro for prospects and salaty dump? It's certainly his style. Stay tuned.
2008-06-20 17:46:09
134.   ms october
they aren't crushing the ball, but they are making some decent contact that is right at the fielders

damn man - let's put together a few hits

2008-06-20 17:46:44
135.   dianagramr
133

only if we send them Pavano ....

2008-06-20 17:48:36
136.   Just fair
This guy makes 95 mph look real easy. @ 10 pitch innings do not hurt.
2008-06-20 17:49:17
137.   Yankees Brasil
131 Well, maybe not. Painful to watch so far.
2008-06-20 17:49:18
138.   ny2ca2dc
I'd really like to see a play for Ichiro. He's got that huge salary! How much service time does Felix have now? Arb yet?

Some Offense today would be nice, but this is a legit good young pitcher, and there have been a number of hard hit outs (and the durn CSes)

2008-06-20 17:51:12
139.   rbj
OK, maybe time for reverse psychology. Your next batting inning Yankees offense, get three quick outs.
2008-06-20 17:53:48
140.   dianagramr
Alex is wearing the black armband for who?
2008-06-20 17:54:50
141.   Yankees Brasil
Every hit Cabrera gets makes that IBB to Bruce look even sillier.
2008-06-20 17:55:18
142.   randym77
138 Yup. This guy may be a rookie pitcher, but he's not an URP. He's leading the league in strikeouts and ERA. (Not wins, but, well, there's only so much a pitcher can do there.)
2008-06-20 17:56:12
143.   Just fair
The Puking Bear.
2008-06-20 17:56:51
144.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
oh man..at this point now i KNOW i can throw better than Giambino..
2008-06-20 17:56:54
145.   dianagramr
Giambi and "touch" .... not a match.
2008-06-20 17:56:55
146.   ny2ca2dc
Any news on Bedard?
2008-06-20 17:57:20
147.   ny2ca2dc
Well, at least the G got an out this time. That's progress!!
2008-06-20 17:58:36
148.   ms october
144 i think you have known that for quite some time :} can you throw better than damon?
2008-06-20 17:58:37
149.   OldYanksFan
Seattle needs to go into rebuild mode. They took their shot, but Sexson and Beltre didn't really work. Trading Ichiro for quality prospects and dumping his salary seems smart.

Ichiro is 34. Has the body and conditioning to age well. His contract is: 08:$17M, 09:$17M, 10:$17M, 11:$17M, 12:$17M. An .800 OPS guy, ++ speed, + defense, + arm. Is he worth it?

2008-06-20 17:59:37
150.   dianagramr
AP is reporting Bedard left game with back spasms.
Show/Hide Comments 151-200
2008-06-20 17:59:51
151.   randym77
146 Back spasms, I heard.
2008-06-20 18:00:19
152.   mehmattski
Yeah that's a broken thumb.
2008-06-20 18:01:14
153.   dianagramr
149

Ichiro aiming for the right field porch, even as his speed decreases, is still intriguing.

2008-06-20 18:02:29
154.   dianagramr
149

Ichiro aiming for the right field porch, even as his speed decreases, is still intriguing.

2008-06-20 18:02:45
155.   Just fair
Hank Steinbrenner just said shortstops have enough to do. They shouldn't be expected to advance to 2nd on wild pitches.
2008-06-20 18:02:47
156.   randym77
This is unreal. The Reds have already lost Alex Gonzalez, Jeff Keppinger, and Jerry Hairston Jr. They're going through shortstops like Kleenex.

Paul Janish is probably the Reds' best defensive SS. He might have been subbed in about now anyway.

2008-06-20 18:03:33
157.   rbj
Five Reds shortstops so far this year. Four injured so far

"Son, I've got good news and bad news. The good news is, you're going up to The Show. The bad news is, you're going to play shortstop for the Reds"

"Noooooooo!"

2008-06-20 18:04:07
158.   dianagramr
The Reds get their shortstops from rejected drummers from Spinal Tap.
2008-06-20 18:04:22
159.   ny2ca2dc
If the price is right, you go get Ichiro. I think the guy is over rated, but he adds a truly unique element. And because of that huge contract, maybe available for cheap(ish). The back end might be ugly though.
2008-06-20 18:05:31
160.   mehmattski
149 I think I'd might rather have Johnny Damon from age 34-38 than Ichiro.

Last five years, OPS+
Damon: 117, 110, 115, 97, 139
Ichiro: 130, 113, 106, 122, 101

According to baseball-reference.com, the most similar player to Damon through age 33 is Cesar Cedeno, for Ichiro is Ralph Garr. Incidentally, both players played in the 70s and both players were out of baseball by age 35...

2008-06-20 18:06:03
161.   rbj
149 Probably. But he's the big draw for the Mariners, especially with their Japanese contingent (they are owned by Nintendo too). Dunno if they'd part with him

TokyoJazz, how big are the Mariners over there and due they use Ichiro for marketing?

2008-06-20 18:07:59
162.   ny2ca2dc
160 The sheer length of Ichiro's contract might also make him hard to get - The M's might just figure he's not going to net too much in a trade and just keep him as a gate draw. And if the price is much in prospects, probably not worth it.
2008-06-20 18:08:51
163.   mehmattski
So the Blue Jays hired Cito Gaston again. Will they also sign Joe Carter, Devon White, and Ed Sprague?
2008-06-20 18:10:53
164.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
161 MLB teams here are only as big as their Japanese stars..when Matsuzaka signed in Boston you started seeing tons of B caps everywhere. If Ichiro goes somewhere the fans here will follow him and give up on the Ms. But Seattle wont let him go, the advertising money is too much.
2008-06-20 18:11:06
165.   OldYanksFan
Ichiro is very intelligent. It seems to me he can turn it On and Off. With a crappy team he does not seem motivated. On a contender, I think you would see more from him. With Ichiro, we could trade Mats and/or JD. Certainly with Ichiro and Melky, we would have the best OF D we've had in a while.

Everyone says in BP he hits HRs at will. In YS, he might be good for HRs and triples. He is a young 34. He can still really run.

2008-06-20 18:11:36
166.   mehmattski
Please bring in Jeremy Affeldt. Please please please!
2008-06-20 18:12:27
167.   Just fair
164 No, but they are going to rebuild Exhibition Stadium. : )
2008-06-20 18:12:39
168.   ny2ca2dc
Maybe Giambi won't get victimized by the ump this time.
2008-06-20 18:13:52
169.   Just fair
OYF, that was for mehmattski.
2008-06-20 18:14:09
170.   rbj
164 Domo arigato.
(hope that's spelled somewhat correctly)
2008-06-20 18:15:18
171.   OldYanksFan
Common Robbie! Lets get at least 1!
2008-06-20 18:16:01
172.   Just fair
Atta Boy, Robbie.
2008-06-20 18:16:01
173.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
170 yep, no problem.
Cano with the single! lets go Yankees!!
2008-06-20 18:16:34
174.   OldYanksFan
Christ! We should just start Cano with an 0-2 count.
2008-06-20 18:17:12
175.   ny2ca2dc
ARod is so bush league. Deeking and all that.

HA!

2008-06-20 18:17:39
176.   mehmattski
165 So, that's an emotional argument, based on feeling and hunch rather than statistics. There's no evidence that Ichiro can turn it "on" any more than any other hitter. It is equally plausible that he just can't hit anymore.

And, in 2010, when he's 36, can't run anymore, and can't hit for power? And still paying him $17M? While blocking an Austin Jackson in CF? No thank you.

2008-06-20 18:18:08
177.   OldYanksFan
Damn MLB.TV delay.
BIG HIT!
Not only a run, but the extra pitchcount may make this Volquez's last inning.
2008-06-20 18:18:47
178.   ny2ca2dc
Po to Pinch if Melky gets on please
2008-06-20 18:19:36
179.   Eirias
And here comes the changeup.
2008-06-20 18:19:45
180.   OldYanksFan
176 Melky in LF, AJax in CF, Ichiro in RF. Sounds kinda nice, from a D point of view.
2008-06-20 18:19:51
181.   Eirias
179 Bingo.
2008-06-20 18:20:34
182.   rbj
Only one run? sigh. Grr.
2008-06-20 18:21:15
183.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
176 maybe not JUST emotional..from watching Ichiro a lot and reading about him, he does seem to have an energy switch..he also keeps in phenomenal shape and would seem to have the bat skills to hit 300 when hes 40 yrs old...

btw, no WAY they trade Matsui if they acquire Ichiro. the money from Japan would pour in if they have the two biggest stars together.

2008-06-20 18:21:51
184.   Yankees Brasil
Too much to ask from Melky.
2008-06-20 18:21:52
185.   OldYanksFan
Volquez with 103 pitches.
2008-06-20 18:22:46
186.   mehmattski
180 How many runs does that defense save? Enough that it more than make up for the number of runs they bleed on offense? Just like there's no evidence that Ichiro isn't in a huge decline... there's no evidence that Melky will suddenly be able to hit like a corner infielder.
2008-06-20 18:23:56
187.   ny2ca2dc
183 I duno. I would buy that he could put the ball where he wanted to at 40, to a much greater degree than normal. But he's able to get that gaudy average in large part due to his speed - and that's got to fade with age. And without a ton of plate discipline, I don't see an old star.

Wow, more Moose. That's one real significant positive from this. Volquez is gooood.

2008-06-20 18:24:34
188.   ny2ca2dc
186 Much less a corner outfielder ;)
2008-06-20 18:24:43
189.   mehmattski
186 Er, corner outfielder, of course.

The bottom line: Bringing in aging veterans is the opposite of the direction the Yankees should be going... especially via trade. If they're going to improve the offense in the next 2-3 years, it should be via free agency, where it doesn't cost prospects, only cash (and draft picks).

2008-06-20 18:25:50
190.   Yankees Brasil
186 There's enough evidence that Melky might be a below-average producer from any spot in the outfield (offensively, that is).
2008-06-20 18:26:41
191.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
187 think Dusty puts him out there for the 8th??
2008-06-20 18:26:56
192.   Yankees Brasil
Comon Moose, keep them at 4, otherwise this is over.
2008-06-20 18:27:08
193.   ny2ca2dc
189 I'd agree, but free agents do cost picks when they're type-A. If Ichiro were available in an Abreu type deal, I'd jump on it. But he won't be.
2008-06-20 18:28:58
194.   mehmattski
191 I'm rooting for the worst setup-man in the business. Yes, worse than Kyle Farnsworth.

Ladies and Gentlemen- Jeremy Affeldt.

2008: 34.3 IP 36 H 19 R (17 ER, 4.46 ERA) 13 BB 39 K 6 HR

2008-06-20 18:29:43
195.   nick
Corey Patterson no match for the crafty Moose!
2008-06-20 18:29:46
196.   ny2ca2dc
Moose's fastball is solidly slower than Joba's slider.
2008-06-20 18:29:46
197.   rbj
Come on offense, three quick outs!
2008-06-20 18:30:15
198.   nick
damn, Moose about 1 run away from a truly outstanding outing: I'm late, can the fielding be blamed?
2008-06-20 18:30:54
199.   ny2ca2dc
198 It didn't help. Nor did an IBB called from the bench (presumably).
2008-06-20 18:30:58
200.   Yankees Brasil
194 But he's a lefty, they always give us trouble. I would not be surprised to see him retire the side in order.
Show/Hide Comments 201-250
2008-06-20 18:31:33
201.   mehmattski
193 There's a huge difference between losing a prospect and losing a draft pick. (See: Bird in Hand. Compare to: Bird in bush.)

Would you rather trade Joba Chamberlain/Austin Jackson/Phil Hughes, or would you rather lose the 30th pick in the 2009 amateur draft? Keep in mind that the Yankees, with their wealth, can afford to scoop up so many international signees that the draft doesn't matter as much as it does to small-market teams at the top of the draft order.

2008-06-20 18:32:29
202.   OldYanksFan
A list of 2009 FAs at:
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/12/2009-mlb-free-a.html
Any OFers there that would look good in Pinstripes?
If not Ichiro, would you rather have Abreu for 3 more years? In seems to me we will need 1 and probably 2 OFers by 2010. I am NOT assuming Melky will make the grade.
2008-06-20 18:32:35
203.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
more random Qs..on the tv broadcast here, there are no commercials between innings, we just get the Japanese announcers..is the music at the stadium as bad as I am hearing???? did i really hear C&C Music Factory 'Everybody Dance Now'??
2008-06-20 18:32:36
204.   nick
nice to see teh Twinkies put up 7 earned runs against my least favorite Hall of Famer...
2008-06-20 18:34:48
205.   rbj
203 Yes.
2008-06-20 18:35:28
206.   monkeypants
I'm late the party--why no Po?
2008-06-20 18:35:36
207.   Travis08
203 Yes. The music at the Stadium in between innings hasn't changed significantly since at least 1996.
2008-06-20 18:35:54
208.   ny2ca2dc
201 As I've said, I would generally not advocate trading Joba or Hughes (or AJax), and certainly not for old Ichiro. I do, however, value those first round draft picks, which of course were the source of the aforementioned Joba and Hughes.

I don't think we have a disagreement.

2008-06-20 18:35:59
209.   rbj
Oh crud, an URP tomorrow. But I'll be on the train so I should miss the game.
2008-06-20 18:36:50
210.   dianagramr
Ichiro career at the Stadium:
.341/.372/.439

In wins (overall):
.366/.415/.497

In losses (overall):
.292/.334/.361

2008-06-20 18:37:11
211.   mehmattski
202 Adam Dunn. Even if he doesn't like playing baseball.

I'd also accept Pat Burrell for two or three years. Or Milton Bradley. I'd even take a flier on Rocco Baldelli... minor league contract, he wouldn't even cost a draft pick, and if he's ever healthy...

2008-06-20 18:37:23
212.   monkeypants
207 Remember when there used to be nice organ music between innings? That was, oh, about 20 years ago.
2008-06-20 18:38:53
213.   OldYanksFan
TB down 4-1 after 7. Sox tied 1-1. Pittsburg/Toronto 0-0 after 9. Can you remember a game recently 0-0 after 9?
2008-06-20 18:39:35
214.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
207 that Euro-house Cotten-Eyed-Joe made me ill...its New York, how about some jazz please?

Trabers windup is irritating to look at..damn, so humid here everything is annoying me now..

2008-06-20 18:39:38
215.   Yankees Brasil
209 Can't do much worse than today. I think the offense might come back from their vacation tomorrow.
2008-06-20 18:39:39
216.   nick
203 mlb's next expansion team, the Williamburg Hipsters, will provide their fans with a steady diet of Pavement rarities....and PBR for only $10 a can!
2008-06-20 18:41:03
217.   OldYanksFan
Isn't Dunn kinda one dimensional. A Giambi clone of sorts?
2008-06-20 18:41:04
218.   ny2ca2dc
215 Either that or a good offense had trouble against maybe the best NL pitcher. Geez.
2008-06-20 18:41:25
219.   Travis08
213 The 22-inning Rockies-Padres game was scoreless until the 14th.
2008-06-20 18:41:37
220.   nick
216 where'd that damn "s" go?
2008-06-20 18:42:02
221.   Mr OK Jazz TOKYO
216 well-done, sirrah!
2008-06-20 18:42:05
222.   OldYanksFan
Moose pitched a great game. If JD doesn't lose that ball in the lights, it's a different game.
2008-06-20 18:42:51
223.   nick
Traber! 6 pitches and he fans the big lefty...
2008-06-20 18:42:55
224.   Just fair
A knock on e.r.a.
There's no way on Babe's green grass that that Damon botch was hit. The Moose line should be 7 ip, 1er. Ah, well.
How's about 3 in the ninth.
2008-06-20 18:43:04
225.   mehmattski
217 http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/ABpHR_career.shtml

Does it really matter? What is your obsession with defense? He has a career 130 OPS+ and he's only 28. Cashman's a smart guy when it comes to outfielders. If Dunn isn't locked up by the Reds, Cash will get him.

2008-06-20 18:43:34
226.   monkeypants
206 I'll try again--why no Po tonight?
2008-06-20 18:43:34
227.   ny2ca2dc
I'd really forgotten about Traber as an option in the BP. Anyone been following him? Think he might stick this time?

His career vs LHB stats suggest he should be able to.

2008-06-20 18:43:39
228.   randym77
209 He was playing in AA earlier this year. He's been pitching well in AAA, though.

I'm wondering who the Reds are going to cut to make room for him. Definitely not going to be Janish now. Maybe Andy Phillips.

2008-06-20 18:44:31
229.   randym77
226 My guess is it's the old "day game after a night game."
2008-06-20 18:44:37
230.   ny2ca2dc
226 Good question. Any night without Po makes me sad.
2008-06-20 18:45:17
231.   Yankees Brasil
216 They still went something like 2 for 7 with RISP. It's not like they didn't have their chance.
2008-06-20 18:45:23
232.   mehmattski
228 I think their latest shortstop will go to the DL pretty quickly. It looked like he broke something in his hand on that slide earlier.
2008-06-20 18:45:57
233.   monkeypants
217 225 I agree...if his one dimension is "hits the hell out of the ball" then there is a corner OF spot for him on my team. Worst case scenario is he can be transitioned to 1B.
2008-06-20 18:45:59
234.   ny2ca2dc
229 Except that this is a night game following that. Point taken though, they're clearly taking it easy with Po behind the dish.
2008-06-20 18:46:06
235.   OldYanksFan
"Does it really matter? What is your obsession with defense?"
Errr... have you been watching the Yankee games this year? Have you seen how many games have been lost on D? How about tonight with JD? How many times have we been robbed of a rally by a great play?
2008-06-20 18:46:41
236.   rbj
226 I dunno, but tomorrow's a 1 pm start.

228 Just the kind of guy the Yankees should feast on, but if you're jumping from AA to AAA to the majors in half a season you're probably pitching well.

2008-06-20 18:46:42
237.   ms october
225 you aren't a little concerned about his home/away splits - or you assume he is made for yankee stadium

226 no news on po monkeypants
i am assuming it's because of the two upcoming day games and giradi seems to be using molina with moose

2008-06-20 18:46:56
238.   monkeypants
229 You are joking I assume.
2008-06-20 18:47:29
239.   rbj
232 Reds announcers said it was dislocated.
2008-06-20 18:47:34
240.   ny2ca2dc
233 Or DH, as you know. I think this team HAS to get either Tex or Dunn. Abreu and/or Giambi will be gone, everyone else even older, and Mats & Damon in their last year.... There just isn't enough good FA talent to go get!
2008-06-20 18:48:16
241.   monkeypants
237 Odd planning for Po if that's the case: yesterday off for the day game, followed by a day off for Moose?
2008-06-20 18:49:12
242.   ms october
241 definitely agree
2008-06-20 18:49:17
243.   mehmattski
235 Obviously, defensive statistics are not an exact science at this stage. However, hitting statistics are. And Adam Dunn, according to Baseball Prospectus, was 33 runs better than the average hitter in 2007. Sabermetrics tells us that every ten runs added is about one win.

Do you believe that an average hitter in left field can improve the Yankees by THREE WINS on his defense alone?

2008-06-20 18:49:34
244.   randym77
217 Adam Dunn is not a very good outfielder. However, I think he's a much better baserunner than Giambi. Not terribly fast, but smart. His arm is better, too. He was a quarterback in his college days.
2008-06-20 18:50:11
245.   monkeypants
235 You always focus on games "lost" with defense, but never seem to balance that with games won with offense. What about tonight--will they lose b/c of JD's defense, or because they will have scored only one run?
2008-06-20 18:51:34
246.   monkeypants
245 Heh-heh...two runs, of course.
2008-06-20 18:52:03
247.   ny2ca2dc
245 Probably not the later. Maybe because they only scored two runs. Yuk yuk yuk
2008-06-20 18:53:04
248.   ms october
alright mustachioso - time for mustache power
2008-06-20 18:53:06
249.   Eirias
A Jeterian swing.
2008-06-20 18:53:09
250.   mehmattski
Wow, the Yankees crowd is fired up for a game against the last-place Reds.

I give full credit to Jeb. Great job, Jeb!

Show/Hide Comments 251-300
2008-06-20 18:54:14
251.   Just fair
Well, the good news is that we probably won't have to see Volquez again until 2011. If the Interleague schedule remains on the rotation basis, that is.
That bad news is that Damon play is going to gnaw on me. Cripes.
2008-06-20 18:54:28
252.   ny2ca2dc
OK Giambino! Lets let Karma adjust - for the Ump nonsense in the first AB, and that almost-but-not-quite-a-HR after. Yank one out Porn 'Stach Of Doom!
2008-06-20 18:54:41
253.   rbj
Damn. Tough loss for Moose.
2008-06-20 18:54:43
254.   randym77
238 No, I wasn't joking. Molina is Moose's personal catcher. I assume Jorgie will be starting tomorrow. So why put him in now?
2008-06-20 18:55:01
255.   OldYanksFan
245 Both. but it's not like Ichiro does not add to an offense. His SBs and speed on the bases don't show up in OPS stats. It's not like Ichiro is a D only player.

Can anyone compare Dunn and Ichiro in VORP and WARP? Winshares?

2008-06-20 18:55:04
256.   nick
one more 0fer and he'd better cut it...
2008-06-20 18:55:12
257.   mehmattski
All right, winning streak ends against the best pitcher in baseball this season. I can live with that.

Right back on the win-train tomorrow, I predict.

2008-06-20 18:55:20
258.   weeping for brunnhilde
That was an inspired ab by Hideki.

Just fabulous.

Too bad we didn't quite make it.

2008-06-20 18:55:49
259.   ms october
ah well between volquez throwing a really nice game; jd's play; and tommyl's announcement he is headed back to the us - a loss it is
2008-06-20 18:56:51
260.   ny2ca2dc
Can't win 'em all. For all the JD blame (not unfair, that), Matsui doesn't even think about going in to catch it (or maybe he does, but it seemed like it would've been out of his range, if close).
2008-06-20 18:57:08
261.   RIYank
Hey, I'm back. I missed the bad part. "Get Smart" is funny, but a little disappointing if you were a fan of the tv show.

I don't feel like reading through the whole thread, so just tell me, has anyone said "Well, we can't win every game"?

2008-06-20 18:57:33
262.   monkeypants
254 Because you said "day game after a night game," and tonight is a night game after a day game. If Molina is to be Moose's special catcher, then Girardi needs to be more careful about not having back-to-back Molina days. Moreover, this came on the heels of a very odd non-use of the triple-headed catcher yesterday.
2008-06-20 19:00:08
263.   mehmattski
255 VORP is tough to find. Here's win-shares, starting with 2004 (Dunn's rookie year):

Dunn: 32, 28, 20, 21, 10
Ichiro: 27, 24, 24, 33, 9

Adam Dunn is six years younger than Ichrio, and not currently locked into a contract until his age 38 season.

2008-06-20 19:00:13
264.   Yankees Brasil
If not for the bad luck on those almost-HR's by Betemit and Giambi and bad hitting with men in scoring position we might have won. Hopefully we'll get 'em tomorrow.
2008-06-20 19:00:25
265.   monkeypants
255 Ichiro as a CF makes sense. Ichiro as a RF is pretty much overrated in any year not 2004.
2008-06-20 19:00:46
266.   randym77
262 I meant tomorrow would be a day game after a night game.
2008-06-20 19:01:01
267.   mehmattski
261 see 260 , and my 257 , kind of.

Thanks for the movie preview. I feel safe in waiting until I can rent it.

2008-06-20 19:04:59
268.   monkeypants
266 Ah, I see. In any case, I'm still not excited about back-to-back Molina, and I am equally unimpressed with consecutive games where the team scores two runs, carries three catchers, and yet Posada (one of the hottest bats and a switch hitter) doesn't get an AB.
2008-06-20 19:18:45
269.   Travis08
268 Posada did at least DH yesterday.

I imagine Posada would have pinch-hit for Molina in the 7th tonight had Melky reached base.

2008-06-20 19:22:09
270.   monkeypants
269 Yes he did. My mistake, and so my complaint is, well, misguided.
.
.
.
I'm an idiot.
2008-06-20 21:05:45
271.   williamnyy23
I had the misfortune of attending this game, so I am not sure what the mood was in the game thread, but Damon's botched play really soured things for me. It's one thing to lose a game, but another to give it away because your left fielder can't catch a line drive. If Damon makes the play, I really think the Yankees win the game, so it's a shame they gave this one away.
2008-06-21 06:07:25
272.   horace-clarke-era
For what it is worth, Mussina, who is NOT the sort to kindly pick up teammates after errors, completely exonerated Damon for that play ... you lose a ball, you lose a ball. It was very frustrating, but hardly a botch. Moose was clearly unhappy with Girardi and the intentional walk. I have not scrolled the game thread back up to the 5th inning, but I'd say it was a judgement call, lefty/righty, and Cabrera is NOT a good hitter. It was a lousy pitch, though. I have a sense Mussina is greatly affected, pitch by pitch, by his mood and attitude, and it shouldn't really be so by now. A rookie, yes, not a cagey vet. Alas.

Adam Dunn was just viciously insulted by Ricciardi of the Jays on talk radio, when phone in people were urging him to get Dunn. He was unprofessionally blunt and nasty in suggesting why the fans would NOT be happy if he did so. (Called and apologized the next day, apparently. And it is probably a reflection of major job stress there. Incidentally: Cito Gaston??)

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